[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 9mm (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 4/14/2008 8:04:33 AM EDT
| So who's down on fatbobs list for the elusive blowback 9mm? |
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Vaporware Vaporware is a software or hardware product which is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge, either with or without a protracted development cycle. The term implies unwarranted optimism, or sometimes even deception; that is, it may imply that the announcer knows that product development is in too early a stage to support responsible statements about its completion date, feature set, or even feasibility. |
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OK! is this not just semi automatic firing from the open bolt? as this system uses the sear to arrest the bolt carrier from loading the next round being chambered (think the old Brit army SMG). It sounds very easy to modify to illegal operation and therefore a bit of a dumb idea I know some folks look at this sort of thing as pushing some sort of percieved boundry and a strike back against unjust firearms laws, this could become a gateway to yet more legislation remember the brocock air cartridge. Or have I overlooked something? Also has anyone actualy seen one of these I know Tyga says his dad has some on order but have they seen one? |
You're thinking exactly along the same lines as me  PS Hello from AZ, the weather's luvverly 
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Bugger off…
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No, it is not an open-bolt semi auto, because it has a trigger as well as the bolt release catch. There is a big difference which makes it legal. On open-bolt gun goes through the following cycles; 1. Bolt locked back, rounds in magazine. 2. On pulling the trigger, the bolt is released, chambers a round, and instantly fires it. 3. Recoil of the shot fires the bolt back, unloads the round, and locks the bolt back. The new 9mm lever release goes through the following cycles; 1. Bolt closed, round chambered, rounds in magazine. 2. On pulling the trigger, the round in the chamber is fired, the recoil blows the bolt back, unloading the chamber, and locking the bolt back. 3. On pulling the release lever, the bolt goes forward, chambering another round, ready to be fired. These rifles are not self loading, since there is another action to be done, other than pulling the trigger, in between shots, and not easily convertible, since they will not work with a standard lower. There is a prototype rifle around at the moment, but I have not seen this myself. The first batch is currently in production, and will be finished before the Phoenix. |
Or remove it totally = semi-auto. Sounds a bit easy to convert to me, but I'm no engineer.  Is there any process that a new design has to go through to get "approved" as being legal, or would that be for the courts to decide? |
Spoke to a couple people at the club this morning who have ordered the fabled 9mm via a well-known Midlands dealer. They are confident they will be ready at the Phoenix
Do you get your 1K back if the Court says it's illegal and it's seized by the police? |
So you're taking orders for something that is potentially illegal! Surely the legality should be sorted out before it's put up for sale? |
Tyga, your last comment is a comparison which highlights subtle differences, but doesn't justify why the mechanism is not easily convertible, or how removing the "locking back thingy" would render the gun useless. I'm still a bit dubious about the whole "easily convertible" thing. If the bolt is held back after firing and ejecting a case, then surely some bright spark will attempt to remove the bit holding the bolt back and thus have a semi-auto...... Unless hammer and trigger could only re-cocked by the bolt release mechanism then maybe...... ........In which case, might as well go for a straight pull as it would be a damned sight more efficient and easy to manufacture.Am I asking the same questions any FLO would ask or have I completely missed the plot?  Can't help thinking owning one of these things might be playing with fire and courting controversy, and I've yet to see anything that I could use to convince an FLO that these things are not easily covertible to section 5 Hate to piss on anyone's parade but I'll not be racing to front of the queue for one of these things until some sort of precedent for acceptance has been established. |
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Interesting discussion and I understand the concerns, but why would SGC risk their whole business & liberty designing and building this thing if it wasn't legal ? What would be the point ? Afterall no-one here has actually seen one & knows how its supposed to works.....we'll all have to wait and see.... |
Well that's the problem isn't it? Another Fat Bob, trust me, it works, honest! and give me your money product that may, or may not see the light of day. 
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Well couldn't resist so I phoned fat bob and through a lot of umming and aahing this is what he told me: 1. it is mechanical hold back in operation M4 in profile with a bolt release lever on the left hand side. 2. there is a six month back order. 3. it will cost between £900 & £1100. 4. he will have one on display on the stand for the Poenix. he did say he had a lot of fun working on the project so we will see! Nick |
I dare say you're right Adam. I wouldn't expect any of the 'standard' internal AR bits to fit & work inside the 9mm version. |
From an engineering point of view I don't think it would be difficult to build a firearm either based on an existing type, or a totally new one, that technically is not a semi-auto because it operates as the alleged SGC offering is described. The question is whether it will be deemed to be readily convertible as already suggested... The other issue is that the Home Secretary has the authority to deem a firearm as 'especially dangerous' and prohibit it from the word go. This is in existing legislation and there is no recourse to the courts as how can you challenge the opinion of a single person?..... Jacqui Smith-' I deem this firearm as especially dangerous it is therefore prohibited' SGC-'No you don't' JS- 'Yes I do' SGC-'Prove it' JS-'I just did' SGC-'Oh' Don't get me wrong, another available type would be nice but I think it's a lot of fuss and farting about for something that will barely outperform a rimmie..  ..and of course will still be slower 
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It's not necessarily SGC who is at risk. If they sell a firearm designed to do one thing and sell it in good faith to someone who with a pair of pliers and a screwdriver removes a critical component or alters the firearm in some way that changes how the gun is defined (eg semi-auto), then SGC have not committed the offence, but the person modifying the firearm will have broken the law, as I understand it. At which point the McBroon nanny state and Aunty Jackie will shit kittens and all firearms of that type will be banned before you can say "bugger"...... Can't knock SGC for pushing the boundaries and trying new stuff but as a punter you'd better be sure that your FLO is completely satisfied that the gun is, and will remain legal to posess or you could at best end up losing a big chunk of wonga with little or no recourse back to the supplier. The fact that we haven't seen one yet, nor heard of it being reviewed, nor have any idea of how it works is something that will be addressed in time, no doubt, and it wouldn't normally matter ......except we are now hearing about people placing orders (presumably with some sort of payment up front) which seems to be a bit risky to me, given that all we know about the gun so far is based on rumour and conjecture. I'll never knock somone for trying to come up with something new, or trying to develop an idea for improving a system already in place, but without more info it is sometimes better to sit back and wait for the dust to settle. |
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It's a bit like the situation in Formula One. Each year the rules are issued and the teams do their best to stretch them as far as they can. As soon as someone comes up with something that is right at the edge of the rules, the governing body look at it and say 'clever, but you're pushing your luck so we're going to ban it' I'm sure Bob had fun designing the 9mm and good luck to him, but if the home office even get a sniff it's possible to convert they'll just add it to the banned list and that will be that. |
Well actually, it could be worse than that… The infamous "Home Office Consulation Document'' did ask if self loading rifles/shotguns rifles and 'practical shooting 'should be banned… Well there ya go, up pops an AR15 lookalike that can be modded into something more exciting or crosses the boundary and hey ho, "I hereby ban all AR15 rifles and their derivatives'. Sometimes pushing the boundaries when the boundary keeper has already expressed an interest in further restricting said boundaries in not such a clever idea. |
Yep, that's what I was afraid of, just didn't put it across very well. Surely he knows how close to the wind he's potentially sailing and, as you say, the possible consequences for all of us? |
My other concern is that 9mm parabellum was always considered to be too powerful for simple blowback operation. Usually with 9mm parabellum pistols bolthead remains in battery and recoils with the barrel until the pressure has dropped sufficiently at which point the barrel is unlocked, the slide continuing rearwards extracting the case. If it is simple blowback it's going to need a fairly hefty bolt to provide enough inertia to prevent premature breach opening eg Sten/Stirling. Oh well all will be revealed some time soon .
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Everything will be fine, I have absolute confidence in Tygas opinion on what the HO may or may not adjudge to be legal or not…
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Round these parts, someone shot up a tourist attraction with an AR and a FAL, and the gubberment not only banned actual ARs and FALs, but also guns that looked like them - hence why no straight pulls for us. 
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