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Posted: 12/19/2005 8:11:44 AM EDT
Link

Man wielding sword and "firearm" shot by police................ No description of the firearm yet, but he was shot 11 minutes after the firearms boys landed.

Link Posted: 12/19/2005 8:16:08 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 9:50:52 AM EDT
Live by the sword...............................
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 10:58:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2005 11:00:06 AM EDT by JohanLondon]
The sword must have been one of those 'dealy' pointy bread knives, and the 'firearm/pistol/evil tool of the devil/kitten slayer' was probably a toy or replica gun. Must be as people have been shot in this country, by the police for less serious offenses...
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 11:43:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2005 11:44:27 AM EDT by vito113]
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 12:07:24 AM EDT
I have to say that if someone came at me with a 'puka' sword I would 'take the shot', perfectly justified. The law treats any replica or intent (e.g. pointing a covered table leg) as it would a real firearm.... again justified.

The last non-lethal engagement in the UK resulted in a Baton round strike to the aggressors body from 15M, he fell back across the room and got up to his feet again, still holding a knife. Fortunately he was stunned enough for the ARV crew rush forward and disarm him. All told not a smart thing for the crew to do as he could well have offered continued resistance......

I suspect the baton round placement was poor for this to happen

Your dammed if you do, you are dammed if you don't
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 1:24:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 1:24:46 AM EDT by vito113]
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 2:06:34 AM EDT
It took them 11 mins to find their ammo

We had a case just this year in Bavaria where a young man went into a Gun shop to buy a sam sword, he eventually ended up butchering (for want of beter word's) the dealer. There was a big thing about it in the press as usual, but us shooter's wern't dissed by them, they obviously have a beter understanding of thing's than their UK bretheren. I still don't and never will like the press/media.

Tony
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 3:26:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:
little confidence in their own marksmanship, and an over exagerated idea of what a firearm can achieve in the hands of a crim due to an almost total lack of BiB familiarity with them.



Quite agree, most ARV operators sign the car out with the kit asigned to that vehicle, no idividual weapons (too expensive) just an 'armourer' zeroed weapon!

All in all quite frightening.......
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 4:07:43 AM EDT
Let me get this right they are issued with weapons zeroed by someone else

Now if someone with a sword replica or anything else dangerous decides to face down an armed copper, after a clear warning I've no issue at all with the sheriff opening fire, that said I'm staggered they arent given individual weapons?

Richard
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 4:29:08 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:09:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:
Ditto Marksmanship, most of them will put are given in the minimum number of rounds to keep current. It's also a good thing they don't use 'our' ranges anymore, saves them much embarrassment.

ANdy



Budgets Rule Everything........
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 6:10:00 AM EDT
I can name two incidents that showed up the police,

Some of you know i shoot with a club on a military range - the police were kicked off after taking the 600m range off us (higher priority) forcing us onto another range. I wont go into details.

The second took place at another clubs indoor range, in the armour to our club sec. The police had desided to takes somones firearms off them, (i won't go into the reason, not bad though) an The club secetary opens up. once they are in the armoury she opened up the blocks locker and hands it to the fully armed up tatical unit she'd brought with her. at which point they started to point it in the room, just looking at it and getting a feel of it. What they had failed to knowtice was that the bolt was still in the rifle forcing the club secetary to intervien and ensure they now check the rifle. Failed rule 1 - gun is always loaded and were pointing it in non safe directions before checking it!

Armed police are a running joke, not enough training, not enough practice, im told they arent ususaly allowed to be FAC holder (another valueble source of training missed). When ever they are on one of the ajacent ranges the jokes about take cover etc start.

Matt
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 6:30:35 AM EDT
Did you see that episode of Airport where the armed PoPo harras some swedish hunters because they were carrying (rightly) their rifle's bolts with them in hand-luggage? As the police walked away the female armed officer (carrying a MP5) asked her colleague "whats a bolt action gun?"

Not kidding!!!!!

Link Posted: 12/20/2005 6:49:36 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 12:59:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JohanLondon:
Did you see that episode of Airport where the armed PoPo harras some swedish hunters because they were carrying (rightly) their rifle's bolts with them in hand-luggage? As the police walked away the female armed officer (carrying a MP5) asked her colleague "whats a bolt action gun?"

Not kidding!!!!!




Even worse, I believe she actually asked "what's a bolt for?" I can understand it to some degree if she's never seen a bolt action gun (as they don't police guns, they're just police with guns), but her own gun had a bolt
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 1:00:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By richardh:
Let me get this right they are issued with weapons zeroed by someone else

Now if someone with a sword replica or anything else dangerous decides to face down an armed copper, after a clear warning I've no issue at all with the sheriff opening fire, that said I'm staggered they arent given individual weapons?

Richard



Richard, you are assuming they understand the concept of zeroing and have the time/resources/knowledge to do the job themselves.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 1:07:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2005 1:08:37 AM EDT by vito113]
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 1:10:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By UK_Matt:
I can name two incidents that showed up the police,


Only two?


It's a bad job they do with very little training, they are just showing the results of that lack of training.




Armed police are a running joke, not enough training, not enough practice, im told they arent ususaly allowed to be FAC holder (another valueble source of training missed). When ever they are on one of the ajacent ranges the jokes about take cover etc start.

Matt



Not quite true. It's a policy decided by certain forces. We have had several police men in our club, and bought copy of service arms, that used the club to practice and keep current, 'in the old days' of course. Most are still in the club but now shoot rifles, etc. They are very competent FAC holders and those still in the job say it has helped.

A few years ago, a local force had several armed police as RFDs. It was found that some of these were using the RFD as a tool to just play with all sorts of pistols. Eventually, it became policy to issue them with FACs only. The logic was that gun trading part-time was not an option that a policeman could do with his spare time (and keep objective within the job).

As for blotting their own copy book on the range........
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 1:47:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2005 1:48:28 AM EDT by vito113]
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 3:13:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 3:13:25 AM EDT
Let me relate to you all what happened to me last night while I was out Hunting.

I got to the high seat at about 16:00hrs and started my 351st vigil without having seen a Deer!!!
I have seen Nordicwalker's, jogger's and alsort's of pilock's that shouldn't have been out there. I had my CZ Fox in .222 Rem. with and 8x57 hunter scope (zeroed for 100m), and my Glock 17 just in case. At about 17:00hrs a Roe Doe & two of her young moved into my AO. So I singled out the young un that I was going to cull and put my Bino's down and lifted the rifle taking off the safety. I went into the aim and couldn't see them, they had gone into the bushes. The Doe was at the other side of the clearing about 40m's away from me. It isn't a good practice culling a Doe when she has young so I waited, then I got a sight picture on one of the young, basicly the head and neck. so I took carefull aim and took the shot. The other two buged out fast and I reloaded watching as the deer that I had taken got back on his feet and ran directly toward's the high seat that I was on. I couldn't get a sight picture of him and he was past me and going into the bushe's behind me, Sh!t!!!
So I was down from the high seat in no time shouldering my rucksack and going to check for sign where he'd gone past me. As we have about 30-40cm's of snow I had no problem's there, and off I went after the deer, following the blood trail through the in places knee deep snow. After about 50m or so I heard movement about 20 m's in front of me, then I saw the shadow flit through the tree's. I was to slow to get a shot off, 'f§$king sh!t, so I waited listening for a minute before I started following the blood trail again. I eventually came up behing the Deer at a distance of about 20m's. He had led down but the head was still up and looking around. Normally I'd have used the Glock to head shoot the deer, but it was loaded with fresh air in accordance with the new law's here in Germany, so I shouldered my rifle and shot it in the head.

The first round missed the spinal chord and (atlas) head by a couple of cm's. It had hit it in the neck damaging the arterie's there, hence the heavy bleeding.

I guess what I'm trying to say is. SH!T happen's. We all make mistake's, at the end of the day I had the deer.

Moving living thing's are a lot harder to hit that a static paper target!!!

I practice with all of my weapon's on a twice weekly basis and have done for a few year's.

Don't be so hard on the Police who are doing a sh!t job under sad condition's (armourer zeroed weapon's ), not enough range time and other restriction's.

Tony
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 4:14:15 AM EDT

Don't be so hard on the Police who are doing a sh!t job under sad condition's (armourer zeroed weapon's ), not enough range time and other restriction's.

Tony



+1
Taffy
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 5:52:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Taffy223:

Don't be so hard on the Police who are doing a sh!t job under sad condition's (armourer zeroed weapon's ), not enough range time and other restriction's.

Tony



+1
Taffy



I agree that its a tough job,. Would I do it ? Nah don't think so....These guys are all volunteers though, no-one is putting a gun to their head (no pun intended).....

But having said that, surely its in everyones interests that armed Police recieve the highest standards of training with sufficient range time to practice. I don't think this is the case right now, and even simple safety procedures are flouted (such as muzzles pointing all over the shop) The TV footage of the recent shooting of the Policewoman in Bradford (?) showed Armed Police with HK G36 muzzles pointing everywhere....

If these 'elite marksmen' are sloppy and don't recieve proper training/range time, then what happens if ALL of our Police are ever armed....Doesn't sound like a great idea to me...

I think theres room for improvement. to be honest.

ETA: Anyone who waves a gun around deserves to be shot IMO if they refuse to put the gun down when the ARV turns up and the threat looks real.....
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 7:51:02 AM EDT
In the US. I think they call it suicide by cop, or something like that.

We spent hour's in basic training doing weapon's handling, learning how to craddle/carry the weapon's without pointing them at anyone, mainly muzzle down. This rule applied most of the time.

Tony
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 8:16:42 AM EDT

If these 'elite marksmen' are sloppy and don't recieve proper training/range time, then what happens if ALL of our Police are ever armed....Doesn't sound like a great idea to me...

I think theres room for improvement. to be honest.



Steven

So if this is true....

Who's fault is it

Taffy
I agree with you. But I don't think that plod who is out there doing the job is at fault.
He's only as good as his equipment,training and orders.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 8:35:21 AM EDT
If all Police Officer's were to be armed, this problem would disappear rather fast, as the standard of training would (have to) improve. The force's would have to facilitate training and facilities for their officer's to qualify & re-qualify on, on a regular (minimum of once every quarter) basis.

As a civy security guard here in Germany, to keep my 'Waffenschein', I had to pass the quarterly shooting test, and once yearly written test, or they put mo on an object that didn't have armed security.

Tony
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 10:59:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2005 11:44:40 AM EDT by vito113]
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 11:24:28 AM EDT
That was very well put


Mark
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 12:00:15 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 2:05:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:
I refuse to give the Police the benefit of the doubt for a number of reasons....

1. They set themselves up as 'experts' on firearms, yet the average street thug shows better handling skills than most 'Firearms Officers'...who's they?...and come on street thugs with their vast range time are hardly crack shots

2. If we did any of the routine safety infractions that seem to be normal Police handling we would lose our FAC's and probably do jail time...surely this is a lack of correct training

3. There is no excuse for the training. EVERY Firearms Officer is a volunteer. If they want to play with guns it's their duty to make sure they are fully conversant and skilled. Money is not an issue, buy an airsoft and practice!..An airsoft is hardly practice for firing hanguns and money is an issue if there is not enough range time..which we all seem to agree on. volunteer...what's that all about and how is that relevant.? So anyone who goes for promotion or a different job is a volunteer...behave

4. Although the Police want the guns they refuse to act in a mature or responsible way with them. I've seen a documentary about Police training were a bunch of Police recruits were given a firearms familiarisation course, (now that's a laugh in itself!). Throughout the lecture the Plod was constantly using such terms as 'lethal', 'horrific injuries', 'deadly', 'devastating effect', 'kill' to describe a weapon. And the 'awesome' weapon he was demonstrating while giving this spiel? A Barret Light 50 firing RAUFOSS explosive ammunition? Nope, a converted Brocock! The trainee's were almost shitting their pants by the time he had finished. Your No 3 said training was not an issue...Andy make your mind up

IIRC, no armed Police Officer has been shot since 1968, yet they now seem to regard shooting members of the public, many of which are clearly not armed, as almost routine. If there's more guns out there and more bad guys playing with them...statisticaly Cop related shootings will rise.If you point an airsoft at an armed Cop you deserve the lead injection that follows

Yet in Belfast in 2004 the 100% armed Police only DREW their firearms on 15 occassions despite the fact they work in a population which contains (a) Many people with legal PDW weapons, (b) Many criminals routinely armed with real firearms, and (c) terrorists armed with really impressive firepower and not a frigging blank firer with a air gun pellet glued to the blank!

Now why is this I ask? Simple really. The NIPS regard a firearm as a tool of the trade and Officers are required and take pride in being fully conversant and skilled with their tools. If you KNOW you can hit what you aim at you will feel confident enough to stop and think before shooting. Our Police are usually so panic stricken at the idea of (a) missing, or (b) the other guy getting in the first shot they shoot on reflex now....more training needed

As a basic start the Police should be required to adopt the shoot/no shoot rules that PDW holders have to follow. In 30 odd years those rules have managed to avoid 'regretable incidents' as our Police call them.

The Police here on the mainland are now locked in denial.Who?...not the Bobby on the beat They have demonised firearms to such an extent that even they now believe their own propaganda and are terrified of the things.


ANdy




Andy, you are quoting "the" Police....who exactly? is the Police?...Managers failing to manage perhaps?
I'll agree it's poorly funded and extremely badly managed but the guy at the coalface is always pissing in the wind.

Taffy
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 3:06:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2005 11:43:00 PM EDT by vito113]
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