Posted: 9/20/2012 2:14:08 PM EDT
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With more free time I can once again participate here! Now Romp has gone over carbines quite a bit, but has there been much talk on shotguns? In the same manner as the carbine's, balancing practicality and weight with function. Any input?
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I love my SuperNova for three practical reasons:
That being said, I am a strong believer in proper shotgun fit. My SuperNova is set up so the stock casts to the right, which is proper for a right-handed shooter. If I bring the gun up to my cheek from the low ready, the sights almost always fall right in place. I sold my 870 Express because of corrosion issues, and I miss it dearly. Clays could not hide from that thing with the 28" barrel and plain bead swapped on. And it fit me even more perfectly than the SuperNova - waiting for a clay to be thrown while waiting in the low ready wasn't even a challenge. Probably the most natural-shooting firearm I've ever used The SuperNova - despite the 18.5" cylinder barrel - is fun with clays too. Just more difficult than the 870 was. I would get a longer barrel for clay shennanigans, but it costs as much or more than buying an entire spare Nova. 
A while back I wrote this guest article at TFB after wrangling with the subject and a couple failed iterations of home defense shotgun. |
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The shotgun is definitely a viable option for HD weapon......as long as one sets it up correctly.
Just like the rifle or carbine, a shotgun can be over accessorized. Lets take a look at what mission we are looking for this tool to fill. Home Defense, good deal......that means that we can limit what we put on our shotgun to things that will help us with shooting at room or hallway distance, so no magnified optics needed. Lets start out with the base shotgun to be "tricked out". I will give you my opinions on some of the more popular shotguns used for HD. Remington 870 - Classic work horse that will stand up to abuse and keep on ticking. You can generally pick these up pretty cheap, especially used. Lots of after market items to choose from depending on how you want to set your up. Mossberg 500 - Probably the only pump shotgun I would choose over the 870. I like that the action bar/lever is behind the trigger guard where you do not have to change your grip to activate it. I also like the safety location better on top of the receiver, this can be activated by the fire control hand's thumb and you can visually check this without having to take the weapon out of the shoulder pocket. Winchester Defender - Ok, keep in mind that you probably are going to be limited on add on to this. I will also say that the Remington and Mossberg are a bit more sturdy. FN - Pretty decent shotgun, I will admit that I have limited time with one but for the money they are worth it if pumps are not to your liking. Remington 1100 - Another decent shotgun, I would put them just behind the FN. Bennelli - I am pretty fond of the Bennelli shotguns, I like both the M1 and M3, I have owned several of both, I haven't messed with the M4, but would be willing to bet that they are good to go too. Bennellis are on the upper end of the price range for a shotgun that I would be willing to spend. I have not messed with the new Kel Tech, but the idea is sound...... As far as setting up your shotgun for the job at hand......(keep in mind that all this is personal opinion) First thing needed is a white light. Why would you want to shoot at something that you can not positively identify? Lots of things go bump in the night, and I really, really hate reading news stories about parents who have shot their children who were up in the night by accident......these things would be VERY hard to live with for anyone, and now that you know they are pretty easily remedied. Next thing is decent sights, I personally do not like any form of optics on my shotgun. Bead sights are adequate, as are rifle sights, but if you are looking for sturdy, reliable, and accurate then get a good set of ghost rings. Slings, either a one or a two point.....you never know when you are going to need to either ditch the shotgun or go hands on....and this way YOU still have some form of control over the gun. Stocks, this is a personal thing, a lot of folks like the collapsible stocks with a pistol grip.....I prefer a standard for my shotgun. About the only other really needed thing I would put on the HD shotgun is a side saddle shell carrier. These are VERY handy, because all you need to grab is the gun and you are ready to fight, you already have 4 in the tube and 6-8 in the side saddle.....that is 10-12 rounds should the fight become somewhat extended. R |
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Good topic guys! While we all like guns/gear/etc(or we wouldn't be on this site), I believe the most important variable in this equation is ammo, since terminal ballistics is what we're after in any defensive weapon. For an HD shotgun I would recommend something lightweight/simple to operate, easily accessible, and reliable WITH THE AMMO YOU INTEND TO USE. Too many times I see people running ammo that they haven't zeroed/patterned or checked for reliability. Here's a great link to ammo infor that sums it up well AMMO
My set up is as follows: Rem 870 Scattergun ghostring NS oversized safety side saddle surefire forend Speedfeed stock patternmaster ported choke single point sling low recoil slugs 8 pellet buckshot |
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I hate to argue the point with a couple of cops who might have different uses for a shotgun, but I *hate* the idea of ghost rings on a home defense shotgun.
The longest distance I can find inside my house is 29 feet, or ten yards. And that's worst case - I'm standing in the corner of my kitchen (which isn't where I keep my shotgun) shooting at my front door. Even at that extreme distance, I fail to see where the precision that ghost rings give you is of any practical use. The speed advantage that comes from using a bead (where your eye is the rear sight, and thus you have three things to align instead of four) or very plain rifle sights (the ones on my Benelli are very similar to a good set of handgun sights and not complicated at all) seems to me to be a huge advantage vs. the precision that ghost rings offer. For a patrol gun with slugs and buck? Sure, ghost rings. Inside your house? KISS |
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Quoted:
I hate to argue the point with a couple of cops who might have different uses for a shotgun, but I *hate* the idea of ghost rings on a home defense shotgun. The longest distance I can find inside my house is 29 feet, or ten yards. And that's worst case - I'm standing in the corner of my kitchen (which isn't where I keep my shotgun) shooting at my front door. Even at that extreme distance, I fail to see where the precision that ghost rings give you is of any practical use. The speed advantage that comes from using a bead (where your eye is the rear sight, and thus you have three things to align instead of four) or very plain rifle sights (the ones on my Benelli are very similar to a good set of handgun sights and not complicated at all) seems to me to be a huge advantage vs. the precision that ghost rings offer. For a patrol gun with slugs and buck? Sure, ghost rings. Inside your house? KISS Agreed......somewhat. Being a training guy, I will relate most things to training issues.....that is as long as it involves sound equipment to train with and a competant person behind the trigger. That being said, I am a carbine guy. I feel extremely comfortable with one in my hand, and understand that my cheek weld on a long gun is a constant, as are how I view the sights and many other things. Knowing this ghost ring sights are very similar. Other things that come to mind on the topic are that yes, a HD shotty is primarily set up for room combat, but why limit yourself? I am used to being on the offensive, and the truth about self defense is that you MUST have the ability to do this to wage a successful defense (if that makes sence). Another thing to think about with the shotty is what type of round are you using? Like Ricker brought up, do you know your spread pattern with the rounds you plan on using? When I lived in an appartment I usually had a tube full of #4 shot all loaded up with 4 rounds of 00 and 2 slugs on the side saddle. By the time I was in a house I was pretty set on carbines and simply carry what we are issued as a duty round in it. R |
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I own one shotgun with ghost rings (FN) and one shotgun with plain rifle sights (the Benelli.)
I'd have the Benelli with a bead if they made a HD length barrel with one. Benelli's style of rifle sights are very simple, almost like handgun sights. I don't know what Mossberg rifle sights are like, but I do know that Remington rifle sights don't even compare - the Benelli style is much quicker and simpler. "Why limit yourself" - because I believe speed at indoor distances is HUGE, and with a shotgun I don't believe a bead or plain rifle sights are limiting until you start talking about distances where you might want to think twice about whether you should actually shoot - and I'm talking about the home defense perspective here. I would argue that a bead is adequate out to at least 50 yards with buckshot - and that's a distance where you really don't want to be shooting buckshot for fear of the lawyer attached to each piece of shot that's inevitably going to miss your target even if you get a perfect shot off. Common internet wisdom dictates that in a stressful situation like a home invasion, people don't remember even looking at the sights. I don't know how I'd react. I've had a lot of training on systems with ghost ring sights and I feel like I can get a sight picture with them reasonably fast, but I just don't know if it would happen or not. If I assume that I will be able to use the sights, ghost rings turn me off twofold. First of all, at indoor distances the space covered by the ghost ring is very small - maybe a foot at my extreme example of ten yards, more like 4-7" in more realistic distances. I say this having just walked around my house with the FN and the large aperture flipped up. Second, shooting a lot with ghost rings in the Army has made me develop tunnel vision when it comes to ghost rings. When I focus on what's inside the circle, my peripheral awareness goes to shit. This can be ideal for precise marksmanship and seeing small details through the ghost ring at long range - and indeed I was able to hit 300M targets consistently with a rifle during quals. I find this "feature" extremely troubling on a shotgun indoors. The ghost rings are great for shooting at 25 yards or more, which generally means with slugs. I can be pretty effective even at 100 yards offhand (aiming a foot above the head!) with slugs in the FN. This is not a feature I find remotely necessary for the gun I look for when I hear a crash in the middle of the night. Having had plenty of experience with both rifles and shotguns with ghost rings, I can't even begin to recommend them for someone just starting out and looking for a bedside gun. The thing I fear the most with any sort of complex or too-precise sight arrangement is that under stress, I might get caught up focusing on sight picture (the opposite of common internet wisdom) and not take a shot in time. |
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I'm going to nit-pick one more thing and then I'm done arguing with the experts on how to setup a HD shotgun.
Quoted:
Slings, either a one or a two point.....you never know when you are going to need to either ditch the shotgun or go hands on....and this way YOU still have some form of control over the gun. A man was found shot dead inside his home today, apparently trying to don a single-point sling while half asleep... For a person in your line of work, I think a sling is probably not used often enough. I don't know that I've seen any slings on the shotguns LEOs carry in their vehicles around here. And yet, they may be called upon not just to de-escalate a situation or whatever, but detain an individual. Try that with a shotgun in your hands and no sling. Better have backup. Circling back to the home defense situation. It's oh-dark-thirty. You're deep in REM, dreaming about shiny quarters or some shit. BANG, your back door just opened courtesy of a swift kick. You're full of adrenaline and you don't know why the hell you just woke up and you hear something moving. Are you going to think about putting that sling on? Probably not. If you do, are you wasting time? Probably so. Is that sling - dangling wherever it may because you didn't bother to don it - going to get caught up on something? Hopefully not. If you have to go "hands on" inside your own home, are you really going to drop a perfectly good 40" long eight pound club? I hope not. Am I going to bed now, next to my slingless ghost-ring-less shotgun? You betcha. |
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********disclaimer: please do not read if you are highly susceptible to cases of red-ass************
Wow someone sure got a case of the poopy pants over this "shotgun measuring contest".  Teddy asked for some OPINIONS on shotguns, so that's what I provided. The beauty of this hobby/sport/lifestyle is that it is very individual. What works for some might not work for others. The challenge comes in tweeking and fine tuning yourself to get the highest performance possible. As Romp stated, we are both huge advocates of training. Gear cannot supplement lack of training. Also, training allows you to better master your tools and decide which accessories are necessities. Romp and I have the luxury of being in a specialized unit where we aren't just given the left over, issue garbage. We are allowed and encouraged to think critically of our gear and to test and evaluate what will work. This is a fluid process with constant re-evaluation and adaptation of our gear to our needs by way of learning from our mistakes. That being said, we've both adopted a minimalistic approach, requiring everything to be 110% function not form.
Furthermore, I'm a firm believer in "better to have and not need, than need and not have" and "you can't come back for it", which explains my selection and employment of ghostring nightsights and a sling. As to "quickness of sight picture", have you ever tried to quantify that? I have. I ran a shotgun with bead sight and a shotgun with ghostrings through a variety of drills on a shot clock and the ghostrings were actually faster FOR ME. For CQB, you're looking for a 90% sight solution or "combat accuracy", so you don't necessarily need text book perfect sight alignment/sight picture. Having a large white/orange/yellow/etc front sight is much faster for me to pick up than a tiny little bead. Also, in low light the tritium is easier to pick up than a dull metallic bead. While using white light, the color/tritium washes out and you have the shadow of a front sight which is much larger(and inherently then faster for the eye to pick up) than a itty bitty bead. For slings. Why not use one? "It can only be an enabler, never a disabler." Pat McNamara What happens when you need to use both hands to move something, lift something, secure something? Maybe single point isn't the preference for all. I have it on mine because that's how it has been set up for years and its serves it purpose. I would probably recommend a two point for most folks as it's less clumsy and more utilitarian, I just don't feel like spending the time or money to change it as it works for me. A two point sling would negate your fictitous headline of the poor homeowner who got greased as he took a second to sling in. You could simply grab and go and use if necessary. That said, I'm going to go to sleep next to my slingful, ghostring sight wearing shotgun that has deployed on several hundred urban operations and proven itself to be perfectly suited for just the type of scenario the OP inquired about 
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No case of red ass here. I've been shooting an 870 for 18 years both sporting and professionally, is it the best of the cheapies? Maybe/maybe not. I like everything about the 870 except the safety position. Mossberg wins for ease of running the safety.
A good white light is a necessity as stated above for numerous reasons. I prefer a 2 point sling, whether its used or not its there if I need it. Best of luck deciding on what will work for you. If you go to the Armory section there is plenty of helpful info in the shotgun section. |
My personal HD scatter gun is a Mossberg 500. I've upgraded it with the Brownells high capacity magazine kit with rifle sights and a 4 position stock. I've shot this same exact gun since I was 14(given its been in multiple configurations). So I'm comfortable with using it. I agree 110% with having a good flashlight on ANY HD weapon. I've put some time in shooting in the dark with lights and its a big change. I've also experimented with different rounds whether its 00 buck or slugs so I know where/how they work with my rig. I believe this area is kind of a 'to each his own' type of deal. Start out basic, and upgrade to where you're weapon is up to your standards, still very functional, but not loaded with unneccesary things. I know my next add ons will be a side saddle and a better light mount... Although, I did check out a Benneli M4 the other day.... 
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Maybe the difference here is that I view my Benelli as having an extremely narrow purpose. Bedside gun. That's it.
My FN is setup all tacticool with ghost rings, side saddle, single point, etc. If I had to carry a shotgun it would be the FN, not the Benelli. The plan with the Benelli is to draw a bead on the door and call the cops. That's all it's meant to be, because I don't go out and seek trouble like you guys do. |
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One other thing... despite ghost rings being faster for you than a bead (I've heard this claim more than once) I don't see a lot of trap/clay or three gun shooters picking ghost rings. The three gun guys go for a hi-viz bead (or depending on competition class, a red dot) with astounding frequency.
We look to the competition world for ideas to increase speed in the "tactical" world and it's usually the tactical guys dragging ass catching up with people who shoot against the clock for a living. Not digging on you but that's just the way it is. My personal yardstick for sight arrangements comes from having shot clay pigeons recreationally with all three sight systems plus two different kinds of red dot (and having owned guns with all four of those arrangements). Hitting a small, moving target is a great way to weed out which sighting system is truly faster for you. For me, the order goes:
I had a hell of a time hitting clays with the ghost rings despite having worked with them forever in the Army. On my FN, I'm only able to repeatedly hit clays if I basically ignore them and use the tops of the front and rear sight instead, both eyes open. Part of it is that many people find shooting both eyes open with ghost rings to be very difficult. I'm one of those people and I prefer to shoot with both eyes open if the sighting arrangement allows for it. Not unsurprisingly, that's the exact same method we were trained to use for MOUT, and it's the method I taught when that role fell in my lap. |
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While I'm busy trying to argue you guys to death I had better agree with you on some points.
Some people shun the idea of a light on a shotgun because they think it's too tacticool or mall ninja or whatever. I would make the argument that it's negligent not to have a white light on any sort of home defense weapon. Not everybody has the same schedule, but it's dark out more than 50% of the time when I'm at home. When it's dark do you want to be fiddling with a handheld light or trying to hit a switch plate on the wall? I don't. My Benelli wears an Elzetta ZFL-M60 with a flood lens. Works fantastic indoors, the flood lens reduces the hot spot effect that you get with most LED weapon lights. Rather than a 2 foot bright circle, you get a wide swath of somewhat dimmer light. The Elzetta is a bit spendy - a light from any reputable maker will probably suffice. Some incandescent bulbs will have trouble standing up to shotgun recoil over the long term. I prefer the beam of an incandescent in most cases, but the flood lens LED in the Elzetta (optional - they come with standard lenses too) negates that advantage indoors as far as I'm concerned. |
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Excellent stuff guys! This is exactly what I was hoping to get from this. Alot of what has been posted has reinforced the direction that I was intending on going. As of right now I am thinking of a 590a1 (specifically the 51663) for some of the reasons that Romp mentioned, those being the locations of the controls. In the shotguns that I have shot (NOT very many) I do like the ghost rings. Now it is heavier than other similar options but the employment scenarios that I would have for this are much different than my carbine so while it is a concern shotguns are bulky anyway. I also like how the 590a1's shell lifter is "easier" to deal with as there is not a flap there to overcome when loading. Now I recognize that becomes a point of entry for crud but I don't believe that would be an issue on a shotgun. Now what about 20" vs 18.5" barrels? |
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Depending on the gun and the magazine tube or extension, you might be able to get an eighth 2 3/4" shell in the tube with a 20" barrel.
Depending on what you want to use the gun for, longer may not be a problem. For a plan like mine, it wouldn't really matter. If you have kids and you have a need to traverse hallways and such in order to get to them, those inches can start adding up. I had a Remington 870 with a 20" barrel and 8 shells in the tube as my bedside shotgun for a long time. If the shell carrier thing bothers you, it's worth noting that on Benelli pumps, the shell carrier will lock into the upwards position after you've loaded one round. Cycling the action drops it back down again. I find my 3.5" SuperNova to be much easier to load than my 3" FN, both because the loading port is longer to accomodate the 3.5" shells and because of Benelli's shell carrier design. |
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One more point, the Mossberg you mentioned comes with a magazine tube flush with the barrel. You want that in a Mossberg pump, because most of the time there are no options to increase the size of the tube whereas there usually are options with 870's, 870 clones and Benellis.
Additionally it is parkerized. You pay extra for this but it's worth it IMO, especially if you don't like recreationally cleaning your guns every month. I would prefer the 51660 with the bead sight but feel free to drink the ghost ring kool-aid. 
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Not to be rude here Spart, but the man asked for opinions. I gave mine, and you gave yours we have both backed up why we do what we do. An argument with someone over THEIR opinion is kinda pointless.
A comparison between shooting skeet, trap and fighting with a shotgun.......I am generally pretty open, but you lost me on this one. Use of slings.....ok, nice "headline", I just hope you don't have to open a door or do anything with your support hand and accidentally have a sympathetic squeeze and let a round go before you really wanted to. I base my OPINIONS on training and experience, I teach the responsible armed public the same things I teach my cops and SWAT cops. What I teach are things I learned training with just about every major tactical unit in the Midwest, the FBI, Homeland Security, and several other of the alphabet soup of federal agencies. I also base what I teach and advise I give on 20 years of being involved in tactical unit operations doing somewhere around 3,000 to 3,500 operations working in every position from breacher to team leader and being involved in everything from drug search warrants, to barricade hostage situations, from dignitary protective details to counter terrorism. Understand that EVERYONE has an OPINION, I have mine and you have yours. I have no doubt that you have learned some things from the military, or training other places as have a lot of folks. Rick did make a good point that what works well for one person may not work well for another. Just say'in R |
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Since the only shotgun I've ever shot was my SPAS-12 and for me it was just right with the ghost ring sights...you should've seen the looks on the trap/skeet guys at the Air Force Base when I pulled that out of my short gun case and outshot many of them in trap/skeet with their $3,000+ specialized shotguns. The SPAS was right for me because that is what I was used to shooting and don't know any better...would love to own another again someday.
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I have a Mossberg 590A1 20" bead sight. I've got a simple two point riding on the standard 590A1 mounting points, but I've got GG&G Front Sling Mount waiting for a rear sling mount, I'm just debating if I want a side mount next to the receiver or on the butstock. The reason I'm leaning towards this sling setup rather than the stock setup that this shotgun is for hunting/hiking/3gun. I generally stick to the rule of one carbine, one shotgun, one pistol, and so this is the only shotgun I have to fill any role I'd need a shotgun for. I think I may have done better getting an 18.5" 590A1 and getting a Nordic Extension Tube and some more sporting barrels. Another good option would be an 835 Combo that already comes with two decent barrels and get an Nordic Extension for that. But because of the porting on those barrels, expect to be shooting against Saigas with T1s in open division if you take it to any 3 gun competitions.
I need to get a light... I know. But it's not my bedside gun at the moment so I'm not *that* concerned about the light right now. |
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An upside to the receiver sling mount - you can try both single point and two point out, or go with a sling that can do both. Urban ERT makes a hybrid sling that can switch between the two. (Veteran owned/operated business, BTW.)
Speaking of GG&G front sling mounts, I still have one left over from the 870. If anyone wants it I'll bring it to the next build clinic. |
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Maybe this may be the way to go on sling mounts.
Front Rear Sling 2 to 1 adapter That's pretty pricy, but I guess if shotguns are your thing, best do it right. But they aren't mine so... I'll be happy with my fairly standard two point when I get it all put together. |
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my favorite home defense shotgun is a S&W 686... why have a three foot long gun you have to rack when you can load up seven rounds of hot stuff in a weapon that is truly easy to use in the dark, when disoriented, heart rate up, natural dexterity lacking, etc.
but since that isn't what teddy was after... lol. after having used, sold, and worked on tons of these there are a couple i really like for hd... *it should also be noted there are none listed thus far i haven't used including some that aren't. i like the FN SLP. 6shot... i like the pistol grip version. it has ghost ring sights and i like them fine. i've used them in the dark and the light. i don't really prefer them one way or the other, as they don't matter much when an intruder is 6ft away. if he's 50ft away i probably won't be shooting at them, will i? i don't care about that stuff... i also like my 870 SBS i have. also a pistol grip model, it works fine and does a good job without being too long. too often we seem to justify a certain type of firearm because we own it. this isn't coincidence... how many guys do you see that own a fleet of chevy pick ups claim the ford F150 is the bomb? none... just keep it in mind. i certainly have some favorites, but they are based on my TRYING to be objective in most situations... also keep in mind a guy like rick or romper may not utilize a weapon in the home the same way you or i would... thus, the equipment needs are going to be different... |
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Quoted:
my favorite home defense shotgun is a S&W 686... I lol'd. Quoted:
also keep in mind a guy like rick or romper may not utilize a weapon in the home the same way you or i would... thus, the equipment needs are going to be different... I think there's a lot of truth to this. For my third go on a home defense shotgun I designed it to the plan of "sit in the corner and point the gun at the door until the cops come." No room clearing for this guy. |