Posted: 2/7/2012 6:44:44 PM EDT
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Hey again,
Fresh off the last great IHTF get together at Michael's place I have been thinking about a few things. Guns, Gear, and Guts...... I will start this off talking about firearms, we all have them and enjoy them as our founding fathers intended us to. Being that they understood that the right to keep and bear arms was important enough to be the listed as the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution, only after freedom of religion, speech, the press, people to assemble, and to be able to petition the government to redress grievances. Basically all the things that lead to the founding of this great county. Our founding fathers knew from past oppressive governments that they had left behind, that the only way to keep these rights and guarantee our nations survival was for the "we the people" to defend these rights by force of arms if necessary. A responsibility that Thank God they took seriously. Not wanting to stretch too far from this but to tie into a few thoughts; 1) Possessing firearms, or being "armed" is quite simply not the same thing as being effective with a firearm. The late, grate Col. Jeff Cooper said it best that "Owning a firearm makes you no more armed than owning a musical instrument makes you a musician" (I probably misquoted but you get the gist.) 2) Firearms are not weapons. They are simply tools that assist in doing what the person in control of them wishes. (For that matter, more people have been injured by cars than firearms in peacetime) And they have been used for both good and evil......so has the baseball bat. 3) Use of the correct tool for the job.....I still see some folks walking around gun shows and ranges with a carbine (16" rifle) with a collapsible stock, and a scope intended for use at distance, a bipod, a vertical fore grip, lights and lasers, and a single point sling?????? I have always been about using the right tool for the job......basically you can pound a nail with a pipe wrench but there are much better tools to use that are intended for this purpose. Think about what skills you wish to practice with your rifle and how to set it up to best accomplish this, instead of dragging it through the equipment exchange with a crap magnet attached. 4) Gear purchases. We all have been through this, wanting some "cool guy gear". The older and wiser I get, as well as frugal I tend to think in terms of the following when selecting gear; a) Is it comfortable and practical? If it is comfortable then I will use it. If it is practical I will as well and it has been money well spent. The older I get the more about comfort I am. I still need to be able to go out in the cold and rainy Iowa weather because sometimes it seems that is the only time really bad people do things. b) Does this gear aid in my ability to run my rifle/pistol/shotgun? Or does it hinder it? The bottom line here is your gear should work with how you shoot, aid in reloads, etc. and not hinder you ability to shoot and move. Getting back to #2......the person is the real weapon. All equipment and gear is simply a means by which to accomplish a task. I say this thinking that in the worst possible situation a well trained person with a single shot 22 rifle is better equipped to take care of themselves and their loved ones that someone with a nice belt fed weapon who has no clue. People ask me about what they should purchase for their gun collection quite a bit. My usual reply is a good pistol, a good shotgun, and a good rifle......along with a lot of magazines, ammo, and someone to teach them how to use what they have. I will, along with most of you continue to purchase a new gun or more gear from time to time because it is just who we are. And I will also agree that there is just something about spending your hard earned money on something that you can physically enjoy and appreciate. Whereas spending money on training you can not handle it, or trade it for something else you want.....but when you practice after training you will notice that you are pushing yourself and your firearms to the limits and enjoying them more. In fact just about the only times I can think of when you will really notice the money you spent on training is the confidence in yourself while at the range watching others and knowing what you can do........and when someone attempts to make you a victim.......and you refuse. R |
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Hey again, Fresh off the last great IHTF get together at Michael's place I have been thinking about a few things. Guns, Gear, and Guts...... I will start this off talking about firearms, we all have them and enjoy them as our founding fathers intended us to. Being that they understood that the right to keep and bear arms was important enough to be the listed as the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution, only after freedom of religion, speech, the press, people to assemble, and to be able to petition the government to redress grievances. Basically all the things that lead to the founding of this great county. Our founding fathers knew from past oppressive governments that they had left behind, that the only way to keep these rights and guarantee our nations survival was for the "we the people" to defend these rights by force of arms if necessary. A responsibility that Thank God they took seriously. Not wanting to stretch to far from this but to tie into a few thoughts; 1) Possessing firearms, or being "armed" is quite simply not the same thing as being effective with a firearm. The late, grate Col. Jeff Cooper said it best that "Owning a firearm makes you no more armed than owning a musical instrument makes you a musician" (I probably misquoted but you get the gist.) 2) Firearms are not weapons. They are simply tools that assist in doing what the person in control of them wishes. (For that matter, more people have been injured by cars than firearms in peacetime) And they have been used for both good and evil......so has the baseball bat. 3) Use of the correct tool for the job.....I still see some folks walking around gun shows and ranges with a carbine (16" rifle) with a collapsible stock, and a scope intended for use at distance, a bipod, a vertical fore grip, lights and lasers, and a single point sling?????? I have always been about using the right tool for the job......basically you can pound a nail with a pipe wrench but there is much better tools to use that are intended for this purpose. Think about what skills you wish to practice with your rifle and how to set it up to best accomplish this, instead of dragging it through the equipment exchange with a crap magnet attached. 4) Gear purchases. We all have been through this, wanting some "cool guy gear". The older and wiser I get, as well as frugal I tend to think in terms of the following when selecting gear; a) Is it comfortable and practical? If it is comfortable then I will use it. If it is practical I will as well and it has been money well spent. The older I get the more about comfort I am. I still need to be able to go out in the cold and rainy Iowa weather because sometimes it seems that is the only time really bad people do things. b) Does this gear aid in my ability to run my rifle/pistol/shotgun? Or does it hinder it? The bottom line here is your gear should work with how you shoot, aid in reloads, ect. and not hinder you ability to shoot and move. Getting back to #2......the person is the real weapon. All equipment and gear is simply a means by which to accomplish a task. I say this thinking that in the worst possible situation a well trained person with a single shot 22 rifle is better equipped to take care of themselves and their loved ones that someone with a nice belt fed weapon who has no clue. People ask me about what they should purchase for their gun collection quite a bit. My usual reply is a good pistol, a good shotgun, and a good rifle......along with a lot of magazines, ammo, and someone to teach them how to use what they have. I will, along with most of you continue to purchase a new gun or more gear from time to time because it is just who we are. And I will also agree that there is just something about spending your hard earned money on something that you can physically enjoy and appreciate. Whereas spending money on training you can not handle it, or trade it for something else you want.....but when you practice after training you will notice that you are pushing yourself and your firearms to the limits and enjoying them more. In fact just about the only times I can think of when you will really notice the money you spent on training is the confidence in yourself while at the range watching others and knowing what you can do........and when someone attempts to make you a victim.......and you refuse. R I actually just had an entire wishlist compiled at magpul and was pretty pumed about how sweet my M-15 was going to look, and then I started to look at the price I was going to pay for ...cosmetics? Then I thought about all the ammo or the extra bolt carrier group I could buy...None of the magpul gear would make my rifle run any better, so I'll stay plain jane for the time being and grab another few hundred rounds to practice with. |
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Is this the thread where we show off our "cool guy gear"? I've been waiting for one of these. http://i835.photobucket.com/albums/zz277/cavscouty/GEDC0277.jpg?t=1328678483 that weapons needs four more things. 1-bipods, the more the merrier 2-lasers, you can never have too many 3-a picatinny rail mounted walking stick 4-cowbell |
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great topic. liked the analogies.
this part isn't true: "we all have them and enjoy them as our founding fathers intended us to." considering the spattering of freedom restricting gun laws all over the U.S. but we're gaining them back. slowly and surely. i like the thought provoking subjects like this romp. thanks! |
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Quoted: Does this meet the Septic spec:Quoted: Is this the thread where we show off our "cool guy gear"? I've been waiting for one of these. http://i835.photobucket.com/albums/zz277/cavscouty/GEDC0277.jpg?t=1328678483 that weapons needs four more things. 4-cowbell   |
| A lot of the "enhancements" that you can hang off your AR have one thing in common, they turn a 7.5 lb rifle into a 40 lb rifle. As Sam said, the longer you have an AR the less stuff you will have on it. My advice would be to talk to the LE and MIL guys around here and see what they have on their guns. Check out the pics above. Those guys have had to actually carry and use the stuff while spreading democracy and performing nation building. Notice that neither one has any unnecessary gear (other than that cowbell........WTF?) to carry around and get the job done. It's a learning experience that can become very expensive or get you hurt. There is a huge base of knowledge here. Don't be afraid to ask. |
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Dave, as if many of you didn't know had a lot of influence on me as I was coming through the ranks.....anyway, excellent points Dave.
Depending on what you want to do with your rifle/pistol/shotty is how you need to set it up. Obviously you do not need a magnified optic for CQB work. My guns are fairly simple, and I will give examples; CQB gun, and in the order of importance (IMHO) White light dedicated to the weapon.....I like to keep weapon mounted lights around 100 lums or better. Sling, preferably something that you can use to sling into for distance or precision if needed but will not hinder you at room distance. Optic, I prefer red dot sights like Aimpoint. Something most people don't get is night vision capability.....do you need it? Do you have access to it? If not then you can save some cash and by a model that is not NVD capable. If anything is left over, rails, better stocks and a better fitting pistol grip Intermediate distance gun Good sling (see above) White light (dedicated) Good attachment point to weapon (mount) As far as optics, something in the variable 1-4 range (can be used at 1 power for CQB and up to 4 power for distance) As far as a long distance gun; Well, still learning that one for myself.....perhaps others can chime in and help a brother out. R |
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Is this the thread where we show off our "cool guy gear"? I've been waiting for one of these. http://i835.photobucket.com/albums/zz277/cavscouty/GEDC0277.jpg?t=1328678483 that weapons needs four more things. 1-bipods, the more the merrier I can't get into them. I've got a grippod, I've just broke too many to trust them, that rifle is heavy enough. 2-lasers, you can never have too many The Beretta has Crimson Trace grips. I got the rifle covered too. 3-a picatinny rail mounted walking stick Shit, I need a porter to help me carry all that shit. 4-cowbell Righto, my truck in Afghanistan was called More Cowbell. |
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Quoted:If anything is left over, rails, better stocks and a better fitting pistol grip
R Not to start a "bling" war, but I wonder about all the Magpul stuff I see. I honestly don't have any problem with the "issue" stock and pistol grips. I see people changing them out first thing like it is mandatory for a usable weapon and then basically phoo-phoo those of us that don't have them. I wonder how many spend the extra money without ever actually trying the originals to see if they get along with them or not. I think the question could/should be asked, do they enhance your ability to effectively use your tool, or just make you feel good about it? Now, granted, the Magpul stocks and grips are apparently nice and will not cause unnecessary problems, but are they really necessary beyond the tacticool aspect for most users? And by all means,they are relatively inexpensive enough that if you want to spend the money on them, feel free, I'd be glad to take your take-offs off your hands. I do not mean to throw any insult at the owners of these things, just that I don't see much of them as necessary beyond "I want that on my gun" which I happily acknowledge as almost as good as any other reason for modifying your shooting iron. 
Over the course of my 12 years I probably carried an M16 close to as much as Cavscouty and BobRoberts* and not once can I remember thinking "damn, wish I had a better pistol grip". *NOT as much I know, but I have way more miles walking up and down hills and mountains and across desert floors and snow fields or swampy marshes in thickets on nights so dark you cannot see your hand in front of your face with mosquitoes so thick they're biting each other just to get some of your blood then I care to remember. |
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Quoted:If anything is left over, rails, better stocks and a better fitting pistol grip
R Not to start a "bling" war, but I wonder about all the Magpul stuff I see. I honestly don't have any problem with the "issue" stock and pistol grips. I see people changing them out first thing like it is mandatory for a usable weapon and then basically phoo-phoo those of us that don't have them. I wonder how many spend the extra money without ever actually trying the originals to see if they get along with them or not. I think the question could/should be asked, do they enhance your ability to effectively use your tool, or just make you feel good about it? Now, granted, the Magpul stocks and grips are apparently nice and will not cause unnecessary problems, but are they really necessary beyond the tacticool aspect for most users? And by all means,they are relatively inexpensive enough that if you want to spend the money on them, feel free, I'd be glad to take your take-offs off your hands. I do not mean to throw any insult at the owners of these things, just that I don't see much of them as necessary beyond "I want that on my gun" which I happily acknowledge as almost as good as any other reason for modifying your shooting iron.
Over the course of my 12 years I probably carried an M16 close to as much as Cavscouty and BobRoberts* and not once can I remember thinking "damn, wish I had a better pistol grip". *NOT as much I know, but I have way more miles walking up and down hills and mountains and across desert floors and snow fields or swampy marshes in thickets on nights so dark you cannot see your hand in front of your face with mosquitoes so thick they're biting each other just to get some of your blood then I care to remember. You make a good point about changing things before you know why they need changed. I think alot of folks fall into that trap and put the current "cool guy gear" on their rig without testing the stock part for weaknesses. Personally grips and stocks are the first thing I change and I can tell you the exact reasons. I change the grip to an ergo grip because I like the texture when wearing gloves. I also like the infrared length of pull to encourage proper finger placement on the trigger. As far as stocks go, I like the vltor modstock for the extra storage. I keep extra lithium batteries for my light on one side and an oiler pen of weaponshield(free if you call them and ask for one) on the other. Keep in mind that these are my personal favorites after lots of T&E. I've tried almost ever grip and stock out there and these fit MY needs perfectly. I guess that's the point of this thread; to evaluate what it is that you are doing to your rifle to make sure it is value added without defeating the propose of a lightweight carbine. |
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BTW, this-
Over the course of my 12 years I probably carried an M16 close to as much as Cavscouty and BobRoberts* and not once can I remember thinking "damn, wish I had a better pistol grip".
*NOT as much I know, but I have way more miles walking up and down hills and mountains and across desert floors and snow fields or swampy marshes in thickets on nights so dark you cannot see your hand in front of your face with mosquitoes so thick they're biting each other just to get some of your blood then I care to remember. is not to equate my time in the peacetime military with their combat tours, only to point out that even though my service was in peacetime, I have carried a 16 more than enough to be able to speak from experience. It occurred to me that what I said might come across as belittling to their combat tours and I mean nothing of the sort. |
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Optic Light IR laser, if you have NV Knights VF Plate carrier with quality mags Stetson That is all that is needed Seeing that "4" on your CAV brass just about choked me up... "Prepared and Loyal!" 3-4 CAV Ledward/Conn Barracks, Schweinfurt Germany '87 - '91 |
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Quoted:If anything is left over, rails, better stocks and a better fitting pistol grip
R Not to start a "bling" war, but I wonder about all the Magpul stuff I see. I honestly don't have any problem with the "issue" stock and pistol grips. I see people changing them out first thing like it is mandatory for a usable weapon and then basically phoo-phoo those of us that don't have them. I wonder how many spend the extra money without ever actually trying the originals to see if they get along with them or not. I think the question could/should be asked, do they enhance your ability to effectively use your tool, or just make you feel good about it? The issue M4 stock rips the shit out of my beard. The MOE stock I have does not. Also, the A2 grip if awful, and whoever added that finger groove needs beaten. I was perfectly happy with the A1 grip. I like the ergo of the MOE grip, plus the ability to store a spare bolt in it is a Very Good Thing. My partner and I built our guns. Mine is MOE and hers is stock. 
That's my set up. I am into simplicity, but not in a stupid way. The sling is a Boonie Packer, which, while not perfect, is amazingly good for $15.95. I will someday graduate to a BFG Vickers sling. And I have never been happy with the light set up. Now for some training... |
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keep extra lithium batteries for my light on one side and an oiler pen of weaponshield(free if you call them and ask for one) on the other.
Awesome piece of wisdom, thank you. When I first got/(had Dave build) my AR upper, I had a YHM bi-pod mount, YHM rifle length rail (no rail covers b/c I was gun poor), vertical grip, full flashlight mounted in steel rings (bright, but heavy), red dot, knock-off magnifier, and a 16" heavy barrel. It was a pig. Swapped just about everything out on it. Went to a DD Lite carbine rail, 16" pencil bbl, kept the VFG, Insigh M3 w/ remote switch on the VFG, Magpul CTR, and Eotech. Dropped SEVERAL lbs. off the rifle and made it much easier to manuver. (Oh, and it has low-pro rail covers  )
My 'mid-range' gun is a 13.7" WOA stainless heavy barrel w/ a 2.5" comp pinned and welded, Troy 13.5" rail, sling, and a 1-4x in and ADM mount (Will get a TA33r-8 when funds allow). For long-range I went to a Grendel, inspired by Septic. AA arms billet side-chargining upper, JP rifle length rail, bi-pod, and a Bushy 6500 2.5-16x in another ADM mount. CMC flate-brade trigger, etc. |
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Quoted:If anything is left over, rails, better stocks and a better fitting pistol grip
R Not to start a "bling" war, but I wonder about all the Magpul stuff I see. I honestly don't have any problem with the "issue" stock and pistol grips. I see people changing them out first thing like it is mandatory for a usable weapon and then basically phoo-phoo those of us that don't have them. I wonder how many spend the extra money without ever actually trying the originals to see if they get along with them or not. I think the question could/should be asked, do they enhance your ability to effectively use your tool, or just make you feel good about it? Now, granted, the Magpul stocks and grips are apparently nice and will not cause unnecessary problems, but are they really necessary beyond the tacticool aspect for most users? And by all means,they are relatively inexpensive enough that if you want to spend the money on them, feel free, I'd be glad to take your take-offs off your hands. I do not mean to throw any insult at the owners of these things, just that I don't see much of them as necessary beyond "I want that on my gun" which I happily acknowledge as almost as good as any other reason for modifying your shooting iron.
Over the course of my 12 years I probably carried an M16 close to as much as Cavscouty and BobRoberts* and not once can I remember thinking "damn, wish I had a better pistol grip". *NOT as much I know, but I have way more miles walking up and down hills and mountains and across desert floors and snow fields or swampy marshes in thickets on nights so dark you cannot see your hand in front of your face with mosquitoes so thick they're biting each other just to get some of your blood then I care to remember. Agreed, stocks and grips are a preference thing. The stock ones that come on rifles are definitely adequate. My preference, as Rick stated is because I like the way they fit my gloved hand when running a rifle. I have not been in the military, but have a lot of respect for those that have and usually try and pick the brains of anyone who has done things that I have not to learn from them. To me the stock pistol grip is to small and slippery when running a gun for any length of time. And the standard military collapsible stock has more play than I like so I found something that is a bit more solid. Any distance shooter will have to admit that any "wobble" in the stock will effect bullet impact. The CTR stock has a locking device that allows you to adjust it and then lock it in place to prevent "wobble", that is why I like this stock and use it. As far as fore stock, I usually use rails because I put lights on every weapon I own (remember the order of importance I listed) and this allows me to do this, along with vertical grips/angled fore grip, etc where I want them. On very/angled fore grips, the reason for this is that it allows me to keep a constant pressure from the front to push the weapon into my shoulder pocket instead of using my fire control hand. I like the after market fore stock (other than the factory) because it fits my hand better and allows me to place lights/grips and the like where I like them. All these things work with the way I run my rifle, they help me get things done faster, more efficient and are more comfortable. I have put things on that I thought may help, but ended up changing my opinion after use.....part of the learning curve I guess. Bottom line is your rifle (if good quality) will probably work without all the crap.....but as you get better with it there are some things that will help you, and a lot of things that will not. R |
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I think the only cosmetic un-needed items on my rifles are the XTM rail covers. Typically ladders would suffice. I like to run irons, red dot, and a light on as much as possible with an AFG to provide a better pull into my body.
If you can't explain why you have it on the rifle then take it off. When I return to Iowa I'll post up why my wallet hates me 
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keep extra lithium batteries for my light on one side and an oiler pen of weaponshield(free if you call them and ask for one) on the other.
Awesome piece of wisdom, thank you. When I first got/(had Dave build) my AR upper, I had a YHM bi-pod mount, YHM rifle length rail (no rail covers b/c I was gun poor), vertical grip, full flashlight mounted in steel rings (bright, but heavy), red dot, knock-off magnifier, and a 16" heavy barrel. It was a pig. Swapped just about everything out on it. Went to a DD Lite carbine rail, 16" pencil bbl, kept the VFG, Insigh M3 w/ remote switch on the VFG, Magpul CTR, and Eotech. Dropped SEVERAL lbs. off the rifle and made it much easier to manuver. (Oh, and it has low-pro rail covers )
My 'mid-range' gun is a 13.7" WOA stainless heavy barrel w/ a 2.5" comp pinned and welded, Troy 13.5" rail, sling, and a 1-4x in and ADM mount (Will get a TA33r-8 when funds allow). For long-range I went to a Grendel, inspired by Septic. AA arms billet side-chargining upper, JP rifle length rail, bi-pod, and a Bushy 6500 2.5-16x in another ADM mount. CMC flate-brade trigger, etc. Seems like a long time ago Sammy! |
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Next thought I run into is guys who use a loop sling to qualify but run a one or two point daily. Why the hell not just learn to shoot the rifle in the mannor that you carry it.
I understand the loop sling, but am not a big fan because it pretty much ties you into your rifle, takes forever to get into and out of, and prohibits the ability to move and operate your rifle in any other manner than what you are in. R |
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Next thought I run into is guys who use a loop sling to qualify but run a one or two point daily. Why the hell not just learn to shoot the rifle in the mannor that you carry it. I understand the loop sling, but am not a big fan because it pretty much ties you into your rifle, takes forever to get into and out of, and prohibits the ability to move and operate your rifle in any other manner than what you are in. R Excellent point Romper. When the loop sling was developed, 800-1000 yard shots were common and encouraged. Rifles of the day even had magazine cut-offs so single, well placed shots could be taken. A stable, solid shooting platform was required and the loop sling gave that to the shooter. Now, CQB is the norm and the level of stability that a loop sling provides isn't necessary. Today, most military rifles aren't even issued with a sling, but rather a carrying strap, and that's about all it's good for. One, two and three point slings were purpose designed for CQB and they serve those purposes very well. Use the loop sling for what it was designed for and the tactical slings for what they were designed for. Train how you will fight. |
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SamW and Strongarm...excellent points. Sam, I understand the loop sling and can teach it but usually only do this when working with a new shooter who can not get the hang of keeping their rifle in the pocket of their shoulder, and we would love to see you in a class sometime.
Strongarm, great stuff brudda. I agree with a lot of things from the past going away....and not necessarily in a good way. This is why I wanted to do a basic rifle operations class and teach the 4 shooting positions (actually I work students through 5 positions (2 versions of kneeling, high and low) , as well as the class being taught on iron sights. To me this seems to be a dying art....and being part of our heritage as a nation created by folks who understood how to run a rifle I do not believe in letting this go. Train as you fight, seems pretty simple, but at work I run into the "well this is always how I qualify" argument every time I ask shooters if they deploy that way. I just don't get it. I had one of those light bulb moments in regards to slings a few years ago while attending a call put on by Magpul Dynamics that I hosted through my agency. Getting back to gear that works with the way you shoot and does more to help aid this than hinder it. I picked up the MS2 sling and now the MS3 sling. I like the way I can carry it in a two point and use this to sling into a hasty for patrol and distance shots, and simply snap it into a single point for room entry. It is simple and covers both of my needs from a sling. About the only other sling I use is a Blue Force Vickers sling, this is what I call a military 2 point and it operates a bit differently than the Magpul. With this sling it attaches at the butt stock instead of the receiver end plate, and pretty much the same front attachment. This sling goes over the dominant shoulder, around the back and under the support arm. How tension is added to the sling for distance shooting is done by rolling the elbow into the body or pulling on the sling adjustment. Normally for CQB use I would run this sling a bit looser than the Magpul because at CQB distance you really do not need a shooting aid, but rather a means to catch your rifle should you need to transition to sidearm or go hands on. Both are great slings, and I prefer the Magpul for work simply because of the ability to go to a one point and it is a bit easier to transition from shoulder to shoulder and the Vickers for range use and anything open field. R |
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My only rifle. That's why I have a 1-4x on it. I do have a rear BUIS on it now. Next on my list is a good light and then it's done until NFA passes in IA.
My next rifle will be a 'buddy rifle' and it's going to be a Iron Sighted Mid-length. 
Dad always said: "Beware the man with one gun; He knows how to use it." |
Good topic guys! It's interesting to hear everyone's opinions. A far as slings go, I like an adjustable 2 point with my favorite being the vtac padded sling. I will use a single point for maximum flexibility on entries when I know I'm only going to be in the rifle for a few minutes. I discovered the adjustable 2 point after getting sick of being hit in the nuts on transitions and moving with the rifle slung. 
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Good topic guys! It's interesting to hear everyone's opinions. A far as slings go, I like an adjustable 2 point with my favorite being the vtac padded sling. I will use a single point for maximum flexibility on entries when I know I'm only going to be in the rifle for a few minutes. I discovered the adjustable 2 point after getting sick of being hit in the nuts on transitions and moving with the rifle slung. Thanks for bringing that problem up. I have tried single point and 2 point slings, adjusted and readjusted, and the problem is still there. Do you move the rifle to an underarm position or what? Guess I need to have you or Romper show me the correct way because it's more than just an annoyance. |
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Good topic guys! It's interesting to hear everyone's opinions. A far as slings go, I like an adjustable 2 point with my favorite being the vtac padded sling. I will use a single point for maximum flexibility on entries when I know I'm only going to be in the rifle for a few minutes. I discovered the adjustable 2 point after getting sick of being hit in the nuts on transitions and moving with the rifle slung. Thanks for bringing that problem up. I have tried single point and 2 point slings, adjusted and readjusted, and the problem is still there. Do you move the rifle to an underarm position or what? Guess I need to have you or Romper show me the correct way because it's more than just an annoyance. LOL, swollen nuts.....been there done that  .
As far as running and gunning with either an a single point or an over the shoulder two point is one of those things that once you see it done correctly just makes sense. Used to be that we were taught to actually throw your slung rifle under your support armpit to get it out of your work space, allowing you to draw your sidearm and go back to work. The positives of this technique is that it does get the empty/non functional rifle out of the way without the bag check that Rick described. The negatives are that it takes way to much energy to do and puts your hands out of position to get back to your sidearm. That and the swing back you get from your rifle hitting the end of its field of motion and returning back into your body. What we are doing now is, first of all remove your fire control hand and start directly to your sidearm. Use your support arm (still attached to the fore stock) to guide the rifle down. I usually put it inside of my left thigh. This places you in good hand/body position to do your normal draw stroke, with your hands meeting in your work space just as if you are doing a normal draw of the pistol. About the only difference I can see between doing this with a one point sling vs an over the shoulder two point is that instead of placing the fore stock inside of my left thigh (with single point sling) I place it on the outside of my left thigh (with the over the shoulder two point). Hand motion is still basically the same after that. My support and pulls back to my lower chest and meets my strong hand on the draw stroke of my sidearm and into presentation. Sounds a lot more complicated than it is.....it is better seen than described. R |
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Good topic guys! It's interesting to hear everyone's opinions. A far as slings go, I like an adjustable 2 point with my favorite being the vtac padded sling. I will use a single point for maximum flexibility on entries when I know I'm only going to be in the rifle for a few minutes. I discovered the adjustable 2 point after getting sick of being hit in the nuts on transitions and moving with the rifle slung. Thanks for bringing that problem up. I have tried single point and 2 point slings, adjusted and readjusted, and the problem is still there. Do you move the rifle to an underarm position or what? Guess I need to have you or Romper show me the correct way because it's more than just an annoyance. LOL, swollen nuts.....been there done that .
As far as running and gunning with either an a single point or an over the shoulder two point is one of those things that once you see it done correctly just makes sense. Used to be that we were taught to actually throw your slung rifle under your support armpit to get it out of your work space, allowing you to draw your sidearm and go back to work. The positives of this technique is that it does get the empty/non functional rifle out of the way without the bag check that Rick described. The negatives are that it takes way to much energy to do and puts your hands out of position to get back to your sidearm. That and the swing back you get from your rifle hitting the end of its field of motion and returning back into your body. What we are doing now is, first of all remove your fire control hand and start directly to your sidearm. Use your support arm (still attached to the fore stock) to guide the rifle down. I usually put it inside of my left thigh. This places you in good hand/body position to do your normal draw stroke, with your hands meeting in your work space just as if you are doing a normal draw of the pistol. About the only difference I can see between doing this with a one point sling vs an over the shoulder two point is that instead of placing the fore stock inside of my left thigh (with single point sling) I place it on the outside of my left thigh (with the over the shoulder two point). Hand motion is still basically the same after that. My support and pulls back to my lower chest and meets my strong hand on the draw stroke of my sidearm and into presentation. Sounds a lot more complicated than it is.....it is better seen than described. R This is correct. Simply guide the rifle away from your nuts with support hand as you are drawing your secondary with your strong hand. I try and stay consistent, whether its a one point or two point sling, and guide the rifle to the outside of my support leg. I'm big on consistency in training, since I'm not really bright. I get nervous that I'll screw things up if I over-complicate them. 
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I dig the VTAC .
I think the perfect thing for my 6940 would be a Rear Receiver sling attachment and a Two to One QD attach point because the 6940 has a built in QD point on the hand hand-guard. That being said, there is enough adjustment range on the VTACs that you can get enough slack to transition to off shoulder by slipping the support arm out of the sling. |
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Evolution of my own sling usage.
Kind of strange but being a sub gun guy from the start I learned to run an MP5 with a 3 point. After getting our agency online (actually carrying on Strongarm's work) I learned to run a carbine with the loop and hasty (two point sling). I liked the loop as it was very sturdy and allowed me to lock the toe of the butt stock into my shoulder pocket.....but quickly learned that it was fairly impractical because it limited motion and manipulation of the rifle. So I picked up the two point and taught myself to love the hasty sling. Worked well for patrol use and I could take it off and go with the three point I was used to with the MP5. I found a three point sling that worked well, was made of really great material and could be adapted to use as a hasty sling when not kicking doors. I continued to use this sling for quite some time and then discovered the 1 point sling when working with Wade Rorarich of Bushido Tactical (former South African Special Forces and one of the founders of Strategies). I changed back and forth between the sling I had been using and a one point for warrants for some time (but still not happy as there was just something missing....and two slings and all). Went through Magpul Dynamics Hyper Violent Weapons Manipulation class. Hated the instructor (personal reasons) but good info was learned. And purchased a Magpul MS2 sling. I was pretty sceptical at first but after running it for the class at the wishes of the instructor I learned that someone had thought this sling out pretty well and it was something that finally fit both my needs for a sling (two point for any distance and the ability to switch to a single point for CQB). I did have some reservations about the sling (in reference to construction and materials.....but it was still light years ahead of anything I had seen up to that point) but at that time it was the only thing I found that filled my needs in a sling. Carried the hell out if this set up....several hundred search warrants and years working patrol....basically I was a happy camper. Then started training with LAV (Larry Vickers of Vickers Tactical....former Delta Team member and instructor). And after a long conversation with him decided to step out of my comfort zone and tried the over the shoulder two point sling that Rick uses (lots of different names out there for this but I have taken to calling this type of sling use the "over the shoulder two point"). I like this sling use, but feel that for what I do (mostly CQB) that it does limit me in the ability to transition shoulders but did find it better for open field use. Then Magpul came out with the MS3 sling. I like the fact the Magpul took a serious look at the thin tubular material for the sling and attachment points into consideration and made some very positive changes. Material used in the sling itself is now a thicker canvas strap, it is wider and makes for a more comfortable carry mode. The new adjustment point works much better than the old one, especially with the wider strap material that does not roll and cause the adjustment to bind up. As far as the attachment points, they operate much easier and have a positive locking mechanism (that when holding onto the side of our armored vehicle rolling down the street) I feel that I do not have to worry much about my rifle falling off while in route to the bad guys house and getting run over and destroyed. So basically that is it. I can do the over the shoulder two point with the MS3....but I still prefer the Blue Force Vickers Sling for open field and the MS2 for everything else. Hope this sheds some light on sling usage.....at least for where my opinion comes from. R |
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Eh, you guys don't know nothing about swollen nuts.
Have a bilateral (both sides) one of these- http://www.surgeryencyclopedia.com/La-Pa/Orchiopexy.html#b 
To take care of this problem- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001545/ 
Now, if you're done throwing up, back to your normally scheduled discussion.
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Quoted: So Romper...for a casual day at the range and not much else, which type / brand of sling would you recommend for a noob to put on my first build??? Or do I even need one??? FN (DG - G6645) I'm not Romper, but I like to think I am. I would suggest a two point, or a hybrid, for general range use. Vickers, Vikings tactical, Blue Force Gear or Urban ert for dedicated 2 point. Magpul or Urban ert for a hybrid, a hybrid can go from 2 to a single when needed, but are more expensive. The single point is nice for a very specific set of circumstances and usually cheaper, but for most it becomes more of a pain then its worth. |
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So Romper...for a casual day at the range and not much else, which type / brand of sling would you recommend for a noob to put on my first build??? Or do I even need one??? FN (DG - G6645) For normal range use (which means that you are training for self defense ) I would recommend the MS3 with the Magpul reciever plate. This is a pretty slick set up and allows you to go back and forth from a single point to a two point (for use as a shooting aid) and it can also be adapted for the over the shoulder two point. Price is a bit higher than a normal sling but can do all three modes of use, so I would say that you are still saving by getting this over a couple of others.
It is probably the best all around sling that you can use for many applications. The Blue Force sling is also very good and you can still do a lot of things with it but there is no changing it to a single point and transitions (shoulder to shoulder) are a bit slower than with the Magpul set up. Most single point slings can be used as a shooting aid for distance, and we will cover this in our Tac Rifle I class, as well as setting up your rifle to fit your shooting style and how to use your gear to aid instead of hiinder your ability to run and gun. As far as my personal order of importance in putting together a rifle, I would put a sling right after good back up iron sights and before a white light.....and I have a white light on just about every gun I own. Hope that helps, R |
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Another good sling is the Emdom Gunslinger Sling. One or two point but you need to choose the type of attachment point.
Gunslinger Sling |
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I'm not Romp either, but I have seen him rap in the locker room
If you want my two cents worth, I'd test drive some other peoples gear before making a purchase. This will let you see what works for YOU. Had I done this more I wouldn't have a giant pile of worthless crap in my basement. If nothing else, start with the cheapo GI sling and learn the hasty method. There are guys like Sonny Puzikas that are bad ass at running a standard 2 point even through transitions(a youtube search might provide video of this) If you have to run out and buy something, I'd stay away from a single point unless it's for a very specific task (i.e. Strictly cqb). As I said before, I like the vtac padded. It is easily adjustable and the most comfortable two point to be in for an extended period of time due to its wider, padded strap. As far as transitioning to support shoulder, if you set it up correctly(stock attachment point on the outboard side) it's faster to transition with this sling than with a single point due to not having to dip the muzzle/raise the stock to get around the sling . If you take our basic rifle course, we'll have examples of all these to test drive. Good luck and keep us posted. |
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I'm not Romp either, but I have seen him rap in the locker room
If you want my two cents worth, I'd test drive some other peoples gear before making a purchase. This will let you see what works for YOU. Had I done this more I wouldn't have a giant pile of worthless crap in my basement. If nothing else, start with the cheapo GI sling and learn the hasty method. There are guys like Sonny Puzikas that are bad ass at running a standard 2 point even through transitions(a youtube search might provide video of this) If you have to run out and buy something, I'd stay away from a single point unless it's for a very specific task (i.e. Strictly cqb). As I said before, I like the vtac padded. It is easily adjustable and the most comfortable two point to be in for an extended period of time due to its wider, padded strap. As far as transitioning to support shoulder, if you set it up correctly(stock attachment point on the outboard side) it's faster to transition with this sling than with a single point due to not having to dip the muzzle/raise the stock to get around the sling . If you take our basic rifle course, we'll have examples of all these to test drive. Good luck and keep us posted. ...Watch that too much and you'll end up blind.... Edit: Not because I don't value everybody's opinion...because I do, but I will prob. go with Rompers suggestion..I know Romper - whether he realizes it or not and I don't think he would steer me wrong. I've seen that same setup on a friends AR and he likes it' and the equipment looks well made. FN |
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I've had great success with the Magpul slings and really love the MS3. Much more comfortable. If they could put the padding of the VTAC on the MS3 I think they would have perfected it.
I'm currently trying various various combinations of mounting points with the padded 2 point VTAC between [Front End of Handguard][Rear End of Handguard][Rear End of Receiver][End of Stock] So far I'm finding rear end of receiver and end of stock really nice that you don't need to pull your arm through during a support side transition and neck noose yourself but the way it hanges naturally is awkward. Romp, can you clarify the two points you like to mount the sling? I thought I read you mount on opposite sides? |
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Romp, can you clarify the two points you like to mount the sling? I thought I read you mount on opposite sides? As far as a rear sling attachment point I like the Magpul receiver plate, I really didn't think I would but I have been running my rifles that way for about the last 3 years. When running an over the shoulder 2 point I will attach to the but stock for a rear attachment point. and I am right handed but attach this type of sling to the right side of my butt stock (front attachment to the left side). Front attachment points (IMHO) is where the wheels fall off the wagon with a lot of folks. Again, in my opinion a lot of folks mount their front sling attachment way to close to the mag well and loose control over the muzzle....effectively rendering the sling useless as a shooting aid. Your standard front sling attachment works fine....no need to have anything else unless you have removed yours because of cutting your front sight base down to fit under a quad rail. This moves the front attachment out far enough to give your greater control when slung in. If you have done this and run a rail, I have been using the Magpul rail attachment (works well and is made for the MS2/3 sling) is small and does not seem to get into the way for me. I have been running this with the loop off to my support (left) side (but can go either way) just make sure that it does not bind up on your rifle fore stock/rail/whatever. I have a shooting buddy who altered his sling to accept the H&K MP5 hooks and runs his that way. Just remember, any alterations to our rifles and equipment should assist in how we run our equipment and not hinder it. The last build I did I tried something different and went with a MOE fore stock on a middy length gas system (14.5 with a pin welded Battle Comp 1.5). Because of where I hold on the fore stock (thumb over grip) I took the front sling swivel off (rubbed on my finger and annoyed the hell out of me) and went with the smaller of the two attachment points Magpul makes. Also on the support (left) side of the rifle. I know it sounds like I over use the Magpul stuff....and I am no Magpul rep, but after the stuff that I have used and discarded a lot of their stuff works well with how I run my rifle. They have made some crapola as well (ie; Bad Lever). And for the record I am still no Costa fan .
I will try and get pics up this weekend. R |
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Side note, this is the first discussion that I have started that was viewed 1000 times. Sorry, but personal goal. R Seems a little vain, Romp. Hope the success isnt going to your head. Maybe March should be light hearted in nature. You sir are killing me......
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