Posted: 11/3/2011 7:22:08 PM EDT
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Yeah, I know that I have been slacking as of late on the monthly topics of discussion.....way to busy with work. Anyway, my hours have changed for the much better and I actually have some free time after putting the kiddo to bed.
Been thinking about a few things lately, and this month I will bring up adverse training conditions......yep, you guessed it, not just heading to the range on sunny warm days, but doing some training in the rain or.......you guessed it snow. And since we are getting into that time of year when most folks button up inside their homes and put the training gear away what a great time to talk about it. My main point is this, do bad things only happen to people after they have warmed up with 50 rounds, on a 75 degree day? Well no.....duh, bad things happen to good people mostly at night, and weather can have an effect on many things with shooting.....basic rifle people should know this with regards to wind and humidity. But what about things related to weather or environment before the round leaves the gun? Having shot in snow and near blizzard conditions I can tell you that just about my favorite time to get out on the range is with about 6-8 inches on the ground, it makes things like prone much easier on the elbows, and kneeling a lot easier on the knees and ankles......but what about movement in this much snow? Basically trying to run shooting on the move drills in the snow kinda sucks.....but it makes doing it on dry, level ground feel so much easier. Why would you want to train like this? Well we do live in Iowa......and unfortunately we do not get to decide when someone will mistake us for a victim. Why else, I have been deployed on extended barricade situations at least 4 times that I can think of off the top of my in near blizzard conditions.....and doing it live, in the snow for the first time really sucks. So we train in this type of weather for that very reason. You may not have to deal with this type of activity in the snow, but how many of you have tried to do a side step reload with a firearm on the move in the snow? And once again where do we live? Being a firearms trainer, I can make my LEO students shoot in the snow......but doing this in the private sector not many folks show interest in being miserable and learning. In addition to all other things, it is hell on the learning curve attempting to teach something to folks while the are cold, wet, and generally not happy......focus goes right out the window usually within the first few hours. What else can we do in the winter to keep our skills up? We at CCA were talking about this the other day, and I am working on expanding our winter classes out there to see it there is any interest. What I have been thinking about is doing more women's self defense classes, adding men's self defense classes, a weapon retention class, and I have had several people ask me about doing an edged weapons class. The women's classes are always fun and I have been doing them since the 80's, so I thought why not do one for the guys.....not wanting to discriminate or offend anyone. As for the weapon retention and edged weapon classes......these are kind of specific topics, and since more of us out there are CCWing I thought this may be a good idea.....as far as the edged weapons class, how many of us carry some sort of knife clipped in our jeans pocket, and what if any training have we received? And if it were your last ditch do you feel confident in it's use....or defense from a knife? R |
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Edit: you HAVE been slacking pretty bad on the discussions... i thought about post one, but couldn't come up with a good topic. I for one, am also a big fan of shooting in the snow. I don't really get into very advanced moving and shooting, just the stuff we covered in tac handgun 1. Simple things become much harder when the snow is blowing and your freezing cold, Imagine adding fear for your life in a self defense shooting...I'd hate to find out first hand without doing any cold weather training. wonderful Iowa winters are also a good way to test gear, those fancy boots you bought work good in the dry grass but how do they do packed with snow during the winter? nice holster, how well does it work with a thick winter coat in the way? spend the money on a nice pair of gloves, even a lot of hunting gloves can inhibit a solid draw/grip. I suggested a winter shooting class in one of the class threads here recently, Rick had no comment... he must be one of the ones that bundles up by the fire during the winter
p.s. I like the progression of the OP from Topic of discussion to CCA training plug 
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| Never a fun thought, but training in the rain or cold usually end up being fun. I have tried out different types of cold weather gloves from tactical gloves that inhibit your dexterity to the point of being useless. I have found mechanics brand gloves work best, tho its a give and take. Good dexterity with a little insulation. Weapon retention has been a concern for me and lead me to looking for other types of holsters and thinking about different styles of carry. What would a class like this cover? Any thoughts for week day classes for those that are stuck on a weekend work schedule? |
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We used to get the shovels out and haul our asses up to the skeet range to practice in the snow. The windier the day the better. I LOVE training in adverse conditions. First, there is less pressure (if you don't run them on a nice, sunny day, you're screwed) but you're right, it makes ideal conditions seem exactly that: ideal. Wind, snow, rain, I love to shoot. ALmost every big tournament I've been to has had ATROCIOUS weather. All they guys who spent sunny Sunday afternoons on the range head for the hills. Guys also miss little things like changes in LOP when they have to put on a heavier jacket, or how much slower their mount is in a rain coat. Hunters have trouble steadying their rifle or a consistent trigger squeeze with frozen fingers and/or gloves they don't practice with, etc. It's these little things that add up in to missed birds in the sporting clays world and pulled shots with a rifle.
I think the key is short sessions. Shoot a round then back into the house to warm up a bit. Allows you to keep your concentration while still practicing in the stuff. Especially for those of us tied up in the Spring, part of Summer, and all Fall with agricultural work, I'd love to take a course like long range rifle in the winter. Good topic |
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i don't know if it is helpful, but i made a remark to one of our precision rifle I students about a weapon configuration he has me building for him. long story made short i commented on what i planned to do to his cheekpiece so if he humped into his hide with it and promptly got into firing position his sweaty cheek wouldn't freeze to the stock upon making contact in cold weather. he laughed his ass off and thought i was joking about shooting in the brutal cold... i wasn't kidding... i've shot my tac precision rigs in all weather, all temps, and altitudes from 9K feet to 600 feet... i made the assumption he would be willing to do the same... we both had a good chuckle over it, but in retrospect i realize that while i have enjoyed the continual use of my tac precision rigs in several practice scenarios i haven't applied that same ethic to the other aspects of my shooting...
good topic and good discussion folks... |
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While it's a good idea to train in the dead of winter and I myself do so, I've had practically zero luck in convincing paying students to do so. You have to admit that as a society we've gotten pretty soft and given the choice of spending hard earned training money on a bright sunny 70 degree weekend or a -10 zero 20MPH wind weekend with 8" of snow on the ground the overwhelming majority of students will go for the sunny day every single time.
So that leaves us with a very tiny segment of students who are truly serious about getting realistic training. Now we have to deal with the fact that learning and retaining new knowledge and skills is much more difficult when students are focused on how cold wet and miserable they think they are which further limits us to previous students that have trained in good weather. Something else that has to be taken into account is lateral movement and shooting in motion in slippery conditions; fumbling guns while wearing heavy gloves; and getting guns and equipment tangled up in heavy winter clothing. These things will increase the danger level so we have to insure that the benefits outweighs the risks. That also goes back to limiting it to experienced students. Don't forget the little administrative things like picking up five thousand pieces of brass out of deep snow. I don't want to sound negative because I think it's important to make your training as realistic as possible but there are lots of hurdles that have to be addressed in order to get from "great idea!' to living breathing students on the range. |
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Course training and training are two different things, as you noted.
I let my hot brass burn through the snow.Come Spring, and the snow melts, I go out there and pick it all up. But, it's my yard. I'm not running around in my yard with 6" of snow on the ground, but I do get out and shoot. Shooting without movement in the cold is still better training than watching TV. |
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I like the way this is going already......and some excellent points have been made, I will bring them up again so they don't get forgotten about.
1) Weapon set up and gear placement......if your weapon and gear work great for you in warm weather then good for you (you are ahead of the curve already) . But there are a totally different set of things to think about in extremely cold weather. As far as your gear set up, can you get to it under a heavy coat? Will it fit over your heavy coat? Long gun shooters, have you noticed that wearing heavy clothing makes for a different fit into your rifle and cheek weld? And how much does what you are running interfere with that fine balance of staying warm, while still having the ability to be mobile? 2) Safety, safety, and more safety. Shooting in adverse conditions does make this harder to achieve. For starters, most of us are pretty sure footed when the sun is out and we are on dry, level ground. Moving around in snow forces you to slow down quite a bit, and makes harder work of doing normally simple drills. And the cold seems to sap all our energy, and as far as the learning curve....well, lets just say that teaching shooters in crappy conditions is not the best thing for anyone. My take on this is that once you know what you are doing then make this part of YOUR training regiment. Remember that rights and responsibilities thing I talked about a few months ago. Also being someone who teaches for a living I can tell you that most, if not all will not take a class when the weather isn't cooperating.....and wanting to provide the best learning environment is what I strive for while keeping things safe and enjoyable for all attendees. 3) Yearly work schedules, I totally understand this....I grew up farming in north central Iowa and completely understand that some folks have busy times of the year while other times they have free time but no classes because of the weather. At my house we had to work our wedding schedule around planting.....nuff said. My main point of this is that just because mother nature isn't cooperating doesn't mean that you can't take advantage of the situation. Crappy weather provides some great training opportunities, also allows you to test your gear, how it works for you ALL of the time not only on sunny "picture perfect range days", and lets you know how to adapt to your surroundings. Once you feel comfortable doing things you have practiced all warm weather long.....give the snow and cold a chance.....this type of TEST can always make you a more rounded and confident shooter. R |
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Would like to mention also that STEEL has been my #1 motivator in getting out and shooting when it's cold. I have a 8" going up close for pistol and a 4" gong for rifles. It means I don't have to go trudging through the snow 100 yards each time I want to set up a new target or break out one of the 4 wheelers. Just plop down on my tarp and bang away.
Same with pistols. Load up and go clankin' - And on that note. Lots of spare mags helps. Much easier to LULA them up in the warm house and take a bunch with me. Nothing sucks more than trying to load mags in the bitter cold. |
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I want to tell everyone about a time I spent in the woods. After 2 days and nights with map and compass for over 45 miles in 48 hours and stopping in about 40 degree weather, night time and it's raining. I pulled a wet weather poncho over my rucksack and myself and ate a MRE. In the cold, being tired and wet, it took me about 1 hour to eat the MRE with my fingers being cold as shit and slow as shit. Everything sucks in the cold. It just sucks. Dress in layers and realize that some time will be spent putting off and on the layers throughout the day. I can't knife fight and thought of a knife fight wants me to carry an extra 9mm mag in my pocket. |
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Quoted:
I want to tell everyone about a time I spent in the woods. After 2 days and nights with map and compass for over 45 miles in 48 hours and stopping in about 40 degree weather, night time and it's raining. I pulled a wet weather poncho over my rucksack and myself and ate a MRE. In the cold, being tired and wet, it took me about 1 hour to eat the MRE with my fingers being cold as shit and slow as shit. Everything sucks in the cold. It just sucks. Dress in layers and realize that some time will be spent putting off and on the layers throughout the day. I can't knife fight and thought of a knife fight wants me to carry an extra 9mm mag in my pocket. 
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Just got back from a day out at the range, yep.....probably one of the last nice days for some time so I thought I would make good use of the weather and what better way to celebrate Veterans Day. And to make things even better than getting some great range time in I met up with the brothers Crandle (at least two of the three anyway) and they had also spent the day out getting some trigger time in.
How about the rest of ya'all? What have you done lately to make make yourself a better shooter? 
R |
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How about the rest of ya'all? What have you done lately to make make yourself a better shooter?
R I went to Hooters. Shit man hit me up next time... sitting around eating crappy food admiring the females would of been much better. Someone should of informed me letting your brother bring his girlfriend to the range, is a bad idea 
Always a joy speaking with you Romp...even if you are old and like terrible shows 
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Celebrated by buying a new pistol. Para P16-40 Limited. Looks like it's going to be a great pistol... if it works. Also got myself some new range gear, CR speed belt, mag pouches, etc. Burned a bunch of 9mm yesterday practicing my draw/fire and reloads Cool addition there Sam......carefull of the draw and fire drills.....don't want to see any Tex Grubner videos of you out there . You know the guy....the "luckily my training kicked in (after I shot myself) and I called my mom" guy.
R |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Celebrated by buying a new pistol. Para P16-40 Limited. Looks like it's going to be a great pistol... if it works. Also got myself some new range gear, CR speed belt, mag pouches, etc. Burned a bunch of 9mm yesterday practicing my draw/fire and reloads Cool addition there Sam......carefull of the draw and fire drills.....don't want to see any Tex Grubner videos of you out there . You know the guy....the "luckily my training kicked in (after I shot myself) and I called my mom" guy.
R Haha, thanks Romp. No quickfire for me. Should have phrased it draw THEN fire. I'm not nearly good enough with a pistol to pull off the quickdraw. Still working on my fundamentals. I've always been a long gun guy until the last year or so. In fact, hopefully I'll be taking a pistol course with you guys once it warms up... If Rlarge lets me
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