Posted: 1/30/2010 11:04:16 AM EDT
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Well I am looking at picking up a pistol here shortly (dad purchasing it and gifting it to me) with my tax refund and I am stuck between a rock and a hard place.
Firstly I want something in .40s&w as it offer less recoil but only a slightly diminished stopping power as compared to a .45, Thus enabling me to stay on target with less effort for more shots and also have a few extra rounds in the weapon. One pistol that really caught my eye was the XDm in .40s&w. My neighbor has a XDm in .9mm and I love how it feels and shoots but I have one HUGE problem with them. There is no thumb safety! While this may not be a huge concern to some but if someone gets a hold of my weapon a thumb safety that they have to figure out how to disengage could give me the additional 2 seconds I need to keep myself alive. Not only that but it is more "secure" with other people around when the pistol is not on my person and is racked next to my rifle. While a 1911 can come in .40s&w and can also have a thumb safety, I want only want a 1911 in .45 and probably will not carry it. So what are the opinions on the Sig Sauer P229. I like the look and feel of it and it is apparently good enough for MANY police agencys, the FBI, and DHS. ETA: Have been shooting for over 10 Years, and I am 20 so close to half of my life. Not a "Beginners pistol" just my first person one. ETA: Got some money back from my tuition at ISU so I am a team member again!! |
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First off, how old are you?
Second, if you are not eligible to purchase a handgun, your likely not eligible to carry one either. Third, considering the context in which your questions are worded might make one wonder as to your intentions. Forget your concerns of mag capacity, stopping power, and features that you think will enable an escape in the event you're disarmed. Your approach to a first pistol is not something that I would feel comfortable in assisting you aquiring. There is a hell of alot more to being proficient with a pistol than one would think after watching a few "action" movies. ETA: Consider a prosecutor getting a hold of this topic in the event you HAD to defend yourself, does it sound like you are interested in marksmanship? Or stopping power, high mag capacity, being disarmed, not eligible to purchase, yet considering carrying? ETA: Add the word sniper in the mix as with your screen name with the above paragraph. The left wingers would get plenty of mileage out of someone giving you advice after the forementioned statements, let alone a jury. |
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First off, how old are you? Second, if you are not eligible to purchase a handgun, your likely not eligible to carry one either. Third, considering the context in which your questions are worded might make one wonder as to your intentions. Forget your concerns of mag capacity, stopping power, and features that you think will enable an escape in the event you're disarmed. Your approach to a first pistol is not something that I would feel comfortable in assisting you aquiring. There is a hell of alot more to being proficient with a pistol than one would think after watching a few "action" movies. ETA: Consider a prosecutor getting a hold of this topic in the event you HAD to defend yourself, does it sound like you are interested in marksmanship? Or stopping power, high mag capacity, being disarmed, not eligible to purchase, yet considering carrying? ETA: Add the word sniper in the mix as with your screen name with the above paragraph. The left wingers would get plenty of mileage out of someone giving you advice after the forementioned statements, let alone a jury. you're way off base on this one dude... persons 18 to 21 can legally carry if supervised by a guardian, etc. above the age of 21. it is in the iowa code. granted the opportunities to do so are slim, but they do exist. go read it... also, if they guy wants to learn and be prepared for the day he is 21 and up, let him. why all the worry about what the anti gun crowd says? who cares what some slick attorney may say? part of the problem with the gun crowd is that we've started to worry about somebody's bullshit rhetoric. those guys can kiss my ass in hell. don't start to give in to that mentality, not even a little bit... who said he was wanting to be somebody out of the movies? there are so many things wrong with your statements and the premise behind most of it i'm perilously close to vomitting... grow up. help somebody out. quit assuming too much. |
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i hold the sig 229 and 226 in high regard. i have both in 40. come out with your dad, i know he digs the 1911, and the three of us can shoot. you're welcome to try on my sig and see if you like it. spent primers are the supreme tutorial.
in the case of wondering about a safety buying you some time? if a dude got your weapon, all logic goes out the window. buying a weapon on that remote purpose and hoping for that outcome are extremely remote. i would give no weight to worries like that and spend your time with a weapon you were comfortable and precise with. then the dude getting your weapon scenario % drops way down. 
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For a first pistol...
Is this a 'first pistol" as in I want to learn to shoot a handgun? Or is this a "first pistol" as in I've shot others extensively, am proficient in the basics and am now looking for a weapon for self defense? If this is a pistol for you to learn with, get something simple with little recoil that will allow you to master the basics of trigger manipulation, using the sights correctly, and reliably placing rounds where you want them. Many of us started out on a .22 pistol, and I still use this for shooters who have developed problems and/or bad habits. Even in the second case and it's a pistol for personal defense, the ability to place the first round fired where you want/need it is much more a determination in documented shootings than "stopping power", mag capacity or whatever controls the pistol might come with. Find something that allows you to put the first round right where you want it and stick with it. Worry about upgrading later. As far as Sig pistols go they are quality made weapons. However my experience with them is that they have a loooooong sometimes heavy first double action trigger pull. Without extensive practice and training that can really effect the ability to put that first round on target. I know several officers that feel with their Sig's the first double action shot is wasted, they'll get em with the follow up single action shots. YMMV. |
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Thanks for the Invite septic! I will defiantly try to get out there at some point.
I have been shooting firearms 10 years at this point, even longer with bb guns (which I learned trigger control on initially). I started with a .22lr when I was 10. Have 2-3k rounds downrange with my AR-15 and nearing 1k with my fathers .45. Tons more with other pistols and thousands more with other rifles. So this pistol is not a "beginners pistol" or anything like that It's just the first one that I will have personally owned. As for .22lr I am going to get a conversion for my ar-15 and the SIG if I get it. I have 8k of .22lr stocked up and add about 1k a month to that stock. .22lr lets you train with that specific weapon without breaking the bank. Tuggy... Search my user name on google. You will find records of it going back probably 8 years and all of it is mine. And between having been in Air Force ROTC and all of the other things that I have done they probably could pull up a lot worse. |
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First off, how old are you? Second, if you are not eligible to purchase a handgun, your likely not eligible to carry one either. Third, considering the context in which your questions are worded might make one wonder as to your intentions. Forget your concerns of mag capacity, stopping power, and features that you think will enable an escape in the event you're disarmed. Your approach to a first pistol is not something that I would feel comfortable in assisting you aquiring. There is a hell of alot more to being proficient with a pistol than one would think after watching a few "action" movies. ETA: Consider a prosecutor getting a hold of this topic in the event you HAD to defend yourself, does it sound like you are interested in marksmanship? Or stopping power, high mag capacity, being disarmed, not eligible to purchase, yet considering carrying? ETA: Add the word sniper in the mix as with your screen name with the above paragraph. The left wingers would get plenty of mileage out of someone giving you advice after the forementioned statements, let alone a jury. you're way off base on this one dude... persons 18 to 21 can legally carry if supervised by a guardian, etc. above the age of 21. it is in the iowa code. granted the opportunities to do so are slim, but they do exist. go read it... also, if they guy wants to learn and be prepared for the day he is 21 and up, let him. why all the worry about what the anti gun crowd says? who cares what some slick attorney may say? part of the problem with the gun crowd is that we've started to worry about somebody's bullshit rhetoric. those guys can kiss my ass in hell. don't start to give in to that mentality, not even a little bit... who said he was wanting to be somebody out of the movies? there are so many things wrong with your statements and the premise behind most of it i'm perilously close to vomitting... grow up. help somebody out. quit assuming too much. Right, off base? I did not say he could not carry, I said "not likely" go back and read it..... 
Some one on the internet says: recomend a handgun with high capacity, with stopping power similar to a .45 with less recoil, first handgun..... lets all tell him what to get! Does alot for the pro gun sites. I would think the amount of scrutiny the pro-gun community gets, some would get the hint, my mistake. I am all for learning at an early age, the context of the previous statements are not along those lines. Slick attorney's are the problem we face today, you can either acknowledge that, or live in denial. Lets take this as an example: The county I currently reside in, now makes you qualify with every weapon you may carry, for a personal defense concealed weapons permit. WHY? I was told in the event you had to defend yourself, the first questions out of the prosecuting attorney is going to be "Were you qualified to carry this particular weapon?" If the first answer is no I am told, by a deputy, it goes down hill from there. Is it right? I don't think so, but if the sheriff is concerned with slick attorney's objective, I will give it some merit. By the way, more counties seem to be moving in this direction in the last year, I guess it is for no reason. Why is it not a good idea to carry reloads for self defense? Not some slick attorney, I am sure. Why are we concerned with calling long range precision rifles just that, and jump up and down when someone refers to them as a "sniper rifle"? I have no knoledge of this persons skill level, I did not say he is wanting to be someone out of the movies. Most people I have taken out shooting, scoff at the notion of shooting at 10 yds.... You can't hit something that far away!? Until I tell them once they land all of them in the target, we'll move back, and let them try. I was alluding to the mindset of many that don't think this requires any skill.... excuse me. I stand behind my statements, so vomit away.... maybe you'll wake up in the process. On the other hand, just re read my previous post with all the words not every other one. IF the questions had a slight bit of discretion, I would have told him you can get a trade in G22 from police departments at a pretty reasonable prices as well as some G17's, I have an XD I have had good luck with. OR Worry about marksman ship qualities before stopping power, or mag capacity, also some people are blast sensitive and may want to consider a smaller caliber, as ammunition would be cheaper and facilitate more, or longer range sessions as well. Maybe the different grip inserts on the XDM would allow a better feel that other manufacturers do not. Bionic sniper feel free to PM me if you have any other questions. |
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Wow, with this being a long, cold winter..... I'm think'n that we need a lil fun shoot on your behalf.
I can tell you that an XDm is great. I chose to get the .40, just to have something in .40 and it's an accurate, high capacity, easy to shoot, good feel'n setup. It's not big, but may be big for conceal carry. I'd say to find some friends (hey, that could be us) with a selection of choices to test fire, to help make up your mind. I prefer not having a safety to flip off, but I also haven't gone down the conceal carry path yet. It's all about safety and practice, practice, practice. 
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I understand where you are coming from on a legal basis but believe me I know all of that stuff already. I have read my fair share of the bull shit that anti-gun lawyers pull.
None the less I would still probably use hand loaded ammo as I know what the quality is as opposed to a mass produced round. I spend a LOT of time on the 75gr a-max rounds I load for my ar-15 because I want the to be as identical as possible and so that I know that they will go bang the first time and not only go bang the second time but in the exact same way (weighing the bullets, weighing the cases, weighing the finished product etc). I do like the idea of a thumb safety however. Even if it is not for the scenario that I depicted above it has a number of other benefits. A grip safety and those middle of the trigger levers are automatic systems that seem to only prevent an AD in the even of a dropped weapon or something along those lines. While the thumb safety is a safety for the operator. They have to physically disengage it as opposed to gripping the weapon. It won't really get in the way of the user after practice as it can be something that is done in the same motion as the draw or while being raised. It is the same for the selector switch on my AR. I have taught my thumb to hit it to safe and fire under different circumstances and I do not have to "work" to switch it. The only thing that I am concerned about with the p229 is the 3.9 inch barrel. |
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You should consider the S&W M&P, they make a thumb safety version but I prefer to go without it. The ergonomics are great and it is made in the USA with S&W's awesome customer service.
A .40 actually is more snappy then a .45 pistol. the .45 is more of a push where the .40 will snap at you a bit more. But really, if you buy quality ammo, the balistics between hollow point defensive ammo is very similar between 9mm, .40, and .45. I am partial to the 9mm due to the cost, and capacity. You can afford to practice more with 9mm and shot placement is going to make a bigger difference then diameter of the projectile in the event of a fight. |
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fwiw, i have a s&w sigma in .40. worst. trigger. ever. its only use is a bedside gun.
as long as you stay away from sigmas and stay with a reputable name, i dont see how you can go too wrong. dont get a sigma. eta: the .40 is a def. snap compared to anything else. and political correctness is killing this country. |
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Thanks for the Invite septic! I will defiantly try to get out there at some point. I have been shooting firearms 10 years at this point, even longer with bb guns (which I learned trigger control on initially). I started with a .22lr when I was 10. Have 2-3k rounds downrange with my AR-15 and nearing 1k with my fathers .45. Tons more with other pistols and thousands more with other rifles. So this pistol is not a "beginners pistol" or anything like that It's just the first one that I will have personally owned. As for .22lr I am going to get a conversion for my ar-15 and the SIG if I get it. I have 8k of .22lr stocked up and add about 1k a month to that stock. .22lr lets you train with that specific weapon without breaking the bank. Tuggy... Search my user name on google. You will find records of it going back probably 8 years and all of it is mine. And between having been in Air Force ROTC and all of the other things that I have done they probably could pull up a lot worse. If you'd like to try Glock drop me PM when you go to Septics and your more than welcome to fire mine (G22, G23 and G27). BTW, Glock has you covered on mag capacity, 31 rds of 165gr GDHP should be enough. 
Thanks again to SA66 for making me a Glockaholic....
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I'll throw in another vote for a S&W M&P40.
Sigmas are crap, and these guns aren't Sigmas. I much prefer the trigger on the S&W, and if you're the tinkering type it's easy to make it lighter. But the main thing is the ergonomics... S&W made a gun to fit the human hand. Glock made a gun to hold a magazine at the wrong angle and accept a shoulder stock you can't legally use. The XD line isn't a terrible choice either, but I didn't like the trigger on my AF buddy's XD40 that I shot. And the Smith just fits my hand better. All of this aside, make sure you at least take a look at all your options before you make a decision. See how the guns feel in your hand, dry fire them a couple times. Who knows, you might be one of those crazy people who insist Blocks feel good in your hand.
Oh and for whatever you decide to go with, see about getting a .40 to 9mm conversion barrel. Makes for cheap practice. |
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Thus far I have shot a few different 1911's, a P226, a handful of glocks, XD, XDm, walther p22 (FUN!!), m9, and a few old single action revolvers. Like the 1911's, xd's, sigs, and the walther. Pass on the revolvers and not to fond of the m9 or glocks.
Right now i feel like im torn between the XDm 40 and the p226 or p229 in 40. I have a few mags downrange with the XDm 9 (last winter at Septics house for the shoot) and loved it. I am going to definatly have to try out the sigs a bit more. I like how both the XDm and p229/6 can be swapped to 9mm. The sigs can use .357 with simply another barrel and there is a .22lr conversion available. Both the XDm and Sig strip virtually identically. So I think it is going to come down to the feel, price and the trigger. I use a 2 stage on my AR and love it but I don't know how that compares to a DA/SA trigger. I will most likely have the trigger worked on none the less. This buy is still a while off so I have a lot of research and hopefully hands on to do. |
Good luck at picking out a pistol Bionic Sniper. I wish I hadn't sold my sexy P226 a few years ago.
That said I carry a Kahr CW40. Super slim and light, and 6+1 mag cap. I don't carry a back-up mag, I really don't see the need, and of course, I couldn't fit one in my pockets along with all the rubbers and napkins with fine ladies numbers on them. Of course, YMMV. 
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Right, off base? I did not say he could not carry, I said "not likely" go back and read it.....
Some one on the internet says: recomend a handgun with high capacity, with stopping power similar to a .45 with less recoil, first handgun..... lets all tell him what to get! Does alot for the pro gun sites. I would think the amount of scrutiny the pro-gun community gets, some would get the hint, my mistake. you misunderstand me... he asked for help and recommendation on weapon choice. pretty easy thing to do, right? instead you gave many reasons discouraging him. i'm not concerned by what the anti crowd likes. i'm no longer willing to side step honest issues, because they may not be PC enough for you and them. so now answering a question like ted's is somehow inappropriate due to what some anti might consider poor when reading a WEAPONS SITE? if you believe we should avoid such things due to what our enemies may think of us, you're no help to the cause. i won't be ashamed and browbeat for something that is legal, prudent, and wise. neither should you. wake up, start being proud of our country (after an email exchange between teggy and i wish to clarify i'm not calling his patriotism into question - that wasn't what i meant and was a broad statement - my bad), our God given right to bear arms, and say so every chance you get. otherwise, put on your hammer and sickle t shirt, and join the rapidly dwindling obama nation... |
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Thanks for the Invite septic! I will defiantly try to get out there at some point. certainly. i happen to agree with the guys above too... if you're still unsure after trying a few on, pick up a nice 22 and shoot the hell out of it. you'll continue to get trigger time and then have more of a basis for proper choice in terms of function, features, and fit. to another point, there are some that mirror full size weapons. i have a rug 22/45 that has the same grip style and control placement as a 1911 and it really is the bees knees if you think a 1911 is on the docket. also, consider too that there are many 22 conversions out there for popular weapons. don't know them all, but glock and sig both have 22 conversions. that may allow you to shoot more often with your carry or full time weapon at a low cost. most of the conversions i've run across are in the $200 neighborhood and slightly upward. food for thought. 40 seems to have a lot of pop, so instead of 9mm i'm leaning more towards 45, which actually tends to pop less. in terms of "felt" recoil anyway. at some point your research will end and you'll just have to take the plunge. my offer stands. you can come out and try on my stuff if you like. if you have a few months to wait, we might be organizing a spring shoot. there will be many there to try on too. kill two birds with one stone - another option... |
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Lets take this as an example: The county I currently reside in, now makes you qualify with every weapon you may carry, for a personal defense concealed weapons permit. WHY? I was told in the event you had to defend yourself, the first questions out of the prosecuting attorney is going to be "Were you qualified to carry this particular weapon?" If the first answer is no I am told, by a deputy, it goes down hill from there. Is it right? I don't think so, but if the sheriff is concerned with slick attorney's objective, I will give it some merit. By the way, more counties seem to be moving in this direction in the last year, I guess it is for no reason. Why is it not a good idea to carry reloads for self defense? Not some slick attorney, I am sure. Does your sheriff make you qualify separately for each weapon you decide to carry especially if you pick up one at a later date? If so is there a charge for this qualification? If this is the case then it is a simple case of $+$=bulging coffers. There is no need to have to qualify for each individual gun you intend to carry. Personal responsibility falls into this category. The NRA/IowaCarry would put this bullshit to rest with standardized qualification standards. While there is an argument to be made about reloads I don't believe there is a real leg to stand on if a load meets the same power level as a given factory cartridge. For example if you use a Gold Dot bullet common to Speer ammo and your load equals that load it would be hard to demonstrate so called "malicious tendencies". if you develop a load that is meant to just blow the hell out of a guy, such as a load that has mercury in the hollow point cavity sealed with wax then you may have a problem. |
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So I think it is going to come down to the feel, price and the trigger. I use a 2 stage on my AR and love it but I don't know how that compares to a DA/SA trigger. I will most likely have the trigger worked on none the less.. Well, you're not going to get that really nice trigger from a Sig or an XD. Probably better off chasing down a 1911, they're good guns to tinker with. My buddy has one that has a trigger that's been whittled down to a pound or less with hardly any overtravel or takeup, and it's a hoot to shoot. All of the modern SA/DA guns I've shot or played with, Sig, Ruger, FN, HK....they all feel like the trigger linkage is made out of cardboard. And with DA/SA guns in SA mode, you always have a reallllly long first stage takeup until the trigger starts to engage the sear that drops the hammer. I will say that I do like DA on Sigs. SA just doesn't do it for me. Too vague. As far as DAO guns go, S&W M&P! It's the Glock that Glock would make if they knew that human hands would grasp their guns. |
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Now to the OP.
I have a fondness for the M&P .40. The ergonomics are great, points on target every time. These can be had with or without external safeties, magazine disconnects and safety locks. I do not have any of these on mine and have no desire for any of them on this pistol. The lack of an external safety doesn't make it any less safe. If younger kids are in the situation then an external lock may be the way to go. I don't like them but my situation is different. Arguments can be made both ways on magazine disconnects. Another feature on all these models is a little lever down in the magwell to allow slide removal w/o pulling the trigger, as in the Glocks, but it can still be done this way too. |
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Lets take this as an example: The county I currently reside in, now makes you qualify with every weapon you may carry, for a personal defense concealed weapons permit. WHY? I was told in the event you had to defend yourself, the first questions out of the prosecuting attorney is going to be "Were you qualified to carry this particular weapon?" If the first answer is no I am told, by a deputy, it goes down hill from there. Is it right? I don't think so, but if the sheriff is concerned with slick attorney's objective, I will give it some merit. By the way, more counties seem to be moving in this direction in the last year, I guess it is for no reason. Why is it not a good idea to carry reloads for self defense? Not some slick attorney, I am sure. Does your sheriff make you qualify separately for each weapon you decide to carry especially if you pick up one at a later date? If so is there a charge for this qualification? If this is the case then it is a simple case of $+$=bulging coffers. There is no need to have to qualify for each individual gun you intend to carry. Personal responsibility falls into this category. The NRA/IowaCarry would put this bullshit to rest with standardized qualification standards While there is an argument to be made about reloads I don't believe there is a real leg to stand on if a load meets the same power level as a given factory cartridge. For example if you use a Gold Dot bullet common to Speer ammo and your load equals that load it would be hard to demonstrate so called "malicious tendencies". if you develop a load that is meant to just blow the hell out of a guy, such as a load that has mercury in the hollow point cavity sealed with wax then you may have a problem. Yes on the qualifying with each individual weapon, and a charge for each range session. |
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If you'd like to try Glock drop me PM when you go to Septics and your more than welcome to fire mine (G22, G23 and G27). BTW, Glock has you covered on mag capacity, 31 rds of 165gr GDHP should be enough.
http://showcase.netins.net/web/draftingunlimited/g22.jpg Thanks again to SA66 for making me a Glockaholic....
Guilty as charged.
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The lack of an external safety doesn't make it any less safe. If younger kids are in the situation then an external lock may be the way to go. I don't like them but my situation is different. Arguments can be made both ways on magazine disconnects. Another feature on all these models is a little lever down in the magwell to allow slide removal w/o pulling the trigger, as in the Glocks, but it can still be done this way too. Yeah that first point was another consideration of mine for the external saftey but Im not worried about that for a number of years still. I am not fond of magazine disconnects however |
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This is like getting on a racing forum and asking "Hey, need a car to drag with in a few years, should I get a Ford or a Chevy?"
Shoot 'em all, buy what feels the best. And, as Septic said, .40 and 10mm are in a class all their own. I moved away from .40 for that reason alone. Why have MORE felt recoil with LESS lead downrange than a .45? Capacitry? Eh, carry more mags. For me, .45's = people, 9mm/.22 = targets, and .44= deerz. |
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Good luck at picking out a pistol Bionic Sniper. I wish I hadn't sold my sexy P226 a few years ago.
That said I carry a Kahr CW40. Super slim and light, and 6+1 mag cap. I don't carry a back-up mag, I really don't see the need, and of course, I couldn't fit one in my pockets along with all the rubbers and napkins with fine ladies numbers on them. Of course, YMMV. You can't fit an extra mag because of the rubbers and napkins? Are you sure it's not because you dress like this? 
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Glock 17. Trigger pull the same everytime, can dry fire for days for practice, External safety not needed, cheap to shoot. reliable. When your in a stress situation and you life is in danger, you don't have to think about safety levers, or worry if you've got the proper grip to actiivate the grip safety. A quality holster also makes gun handling safer. I like safariland for outside the wastband and Milt Sparks for leather inside the waistband holsters. The new 4th generation Glocks have just been introduced. I'm biased. I have 7 glocks in 9mm, 45 GAP, 45 Auto, and 10mm. Pick one up and see how they fit your hand. I've had 4 new shooters start shooting this past fall, and all own Glock 17's now. If your ever in N.E. Iowa, I'll arrange a range session. Dan
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A .40 actually is more snappy then a .45 pistol. the .45 is more of a push where the .40 will snap at you a bit more. But really, if you buy quality ammo, the balistics between hollow point defensive ammo is very similar between 9mm, .40, and .45. I am partial to the 9mm due to the cost, and capacity. You can afford to practice more with 9mm and shot placement is going to make a bigger difference then diameter of the projectile in the event of a fight. +1 glock 21 has 30% less felt recoil than the model 22(according to glock). xdm in 9mm along with glock 17&19 would be good pistols. glock 21's are great. maybe a 4" 1911? what price range are you looking at? |
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A .40 actually is more snappy then a .45 pistol. the .45 is more of a push where the .40 will snap at you a bit more. But really, if you buy quality ammo, the balistics between hollow point defensive ammo is very similar between 9mm, .40, and .45. I am partial to the 9mm due to the cost, and capacity. You can afford to practice more with 9mm and shot placement is going to make a bigger difference then diameter of the projectile in the event of a fight. +1 glock 21 has 30% less felt recoil than the model 22(according to glock). xdm in 9mm along with glock 17&19 would be good pistols. glock 21's are great. maybe a 4" 1911? what price range are you looking at? |