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Posted: 4/2/2006 4:54:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/2/2006 4:55:10 PM EDT by dabigbozman]


#6 Ammo; Rounds vary greatly from the type of match, distance, and of course the shooter. Most bring 150 rounds and seem to be about right. If you are having trouble hitting a certain target you are able to move on to the next to save time and ammo. Bring 20 rounds of pistol ammo to be safe. Remember these numbers are minimum and are different for everyone. IMPORTANT: NO STEEL CORE OR ARMOR PIERCING AMMO IS ALLOWED AND WILL GET YOU THROWN OUT! Magnets are provide so you can check before the match starts.



is wolf steel core
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 5:35:05 PM EDT
If I recollect, most wolf is steel cased and not steel core. Check the tip (bullet) with a magnet to be sure. I dont know of any hollow point ammo that is steel core.

Someone will be by to correct me if I'm wrong.


Mark.

Link Posted: 4/2/2006 7:26:31 PM EDT
Wolf is steel cased, not steel core. However, some of the ammo, especially the 7.62x39, has a "bimetal jacket" which means the bullet itself will be attracted to the magnet. Do not use this ammo. I haven't seen .223 with the bimetal jacket but I would test it anyway just to be sure.

Take the suspect round and touch the bullet (but not the case) to a magnet. If you feel the magnet pull on the bullet, find different ammo.
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 10:56:03 PM EDT
The .223 Wolf I have here is NOT bi-metal or steel core.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 5:59:41 AM EDT
thx for the help, I just pulled a bullet out of the case and tested it and it passed. I just bought 5000 rounds of wolf .223 55grain for $175 from a friend. I wasn't going to get it if I couldn't shoot it at PR
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 9:06:54 AM EDT
5000 for < $200.00 WOW.


Mark.

Link Posted: 4/3/2006 9:51:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dabigbozman:
thx for the help, I just pulled a bullet out of the case and tested it and it passed. I just bought 5000 rounds of wolf .223 55grain for $175 from a friend. I wasn't going to get it if I couldn't shoot it at PR



Two things: 1. You didn't need to pull the bullet, just keep the magnet from case when testing the bullet. 2. Whaddya mean you wouldn't get it if you couldn't do PR? I wouldn't pass up a deal like that even if the ammo was corrosive! I've payed more for .22LR ammo.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 10:03:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dabigbozman:
thx for the help, I just pulled a bullet out of the case and tested it and it passed. I just bought 5000 rounds of wolf .223 55grain for $175 from a friend. I wasn't going to get it if I couldn't shoot it at PR



Wow.. Do I have to come down there and buy a case off of you?
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 11:31:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PromptCritical:

Originally Posted By dabigbozman:
thx for the help, I just pulled a bullet out of the case and tested it and it passed. I just bought 5000 rounds of wolf .223 55grain for $175 from a friend. I wasn't going to get it if I couldn't shoot it at PR



Two things: 1. You didn't need to pull the bullet, just keep the magnet from case when testing the bullet. 2. Whaddya mean you wouldn't get it if you couldn't do PR? I wouldn't pass up a deal like that even if the ammo was corrosive! I've payed more for .22LR ammo.



All I've ever shot is XM193 Federal and I don't like change
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 4:30:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dabigbozman:
thx for the help, I just pulled a bullet out of the case and tested it and it passed. I just bought 5000 rounds of wolf .223 55grain for $175 from a friend. I wasn't going to get it if I couldn't shoot it at PR


Friends like that don't come around very often...
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 4:42:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dabigbozman:

Originally Posted By PromptCritical:

Originally Posted By dabigbozman:
thx for the help, I just pulled a bullet out of the case and tested it and it passed. I just bought 5000 rounds of wolf .223 55grain for $175 from a friend. I wasn't going to get it if I couldn't shoot it at PR



Two things: 1. You didn't need to pull the bullet, just keep the magnet from case when testing the bullet. 2. Whaddya mean you wouldn't get it if you couldn't do PR? I wouldn't pass up a deal like that even if the ammo was corrosive! I've payed more for .22LR ammo.



All I've ever shot is XM193 Federal and I don't like change




Then you're gonna hate that Wolf shit. It stinks, is inaccurate, the steel cases will ruin your chamber and wear out your extractorand it will void your warranty.

Because you didn't know any better I'll buy your 5K for $125. I figure you gotta pay at least $50. for the lesson.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 4:44:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 4:50:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Orygunman:

Friends like that don't come around very often...



very true, only when they find out they arn't getting a tax return and need $$$ bad I also bought one of his guns from him, a Marlin 1894c .357mag with a red dot scope on it
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 4:51:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By petagunner:


Well said And for that, I'll say the same thing and give ya $500 more



OK
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 4:51:26 PM EDT
Y'know, I'll make your day. I'll give you $200 for the lot. Nice profit huh?
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 5:00:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PromptCritical:
Y'know, I'll make your day. I'll give you $200 for the lot. Nice profit huh?



I was almost thinking of seeing if anyone wanted to trade for (1) case of XM193 Federal but I think I'm gonna see how it shoots, if it fucks up at PR I will make someone an awesome on the spot deal
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 7:17:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dabigbozman:

Originally Posted By PromptCritical:
Y'know, I'll make your day. I'll give you $200 for the lot. Nice profit huh?



I was almost thinking of seeing if anyone wanted to trade for (1) case of XM193 Federal but I think I'm gonna see how it shoots, if it fucks up at PR I will make someone an awesome on the spot deal



I call dibs!
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 7:24:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PromptCritical:
I call dibs!



you got dibs you just have to figure out who I am at PR
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 8:15:38 AM EDT
I've found Wolf to be too inaccurate for the long range targets at PR. It's fine for close quarters targets, just don't aim too close to the white hostage targets. Arfcomers have a tendency to cut a close line on them.

Link Posted: 4/4/2006 1:50:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/4/2006 1:50:36 PM EDT by Cape_hunter]

Originally Posted By TangoFoxtrot:
I've found Wolf to be too inaccurate for the long range targets at PR. It's fine for close quarters targets, just don't aim too close to the white hostage targets. Arfcomers have a tendency to cut a close line on them.






Not to mention Matrixtypemallnijaheadloppingaction!
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 1:55:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 2:03:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By petagunner:
And in my defense, that damn hostage deserved it. Stick your head up like that when someone's shooting



As Gackman says, "I yelled 'GET DOWN!' It's their own damn fault if they didn't pay attention and got shot!"

Damn straight.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 2:15:24 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 2:33:15 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 2:55:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By petagunner:
Well...at least I made it a good one, lights out quickly. "Didn't feel a thing"

WS4LIF on the other hand seems to have a thing for scalping them with a 55gr bullet. From what I hear, skull fractures hurt like a mutha



I usually get 'em right in the shoulder about 1" in.

"Pop quiz hot shot...."
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 3:00:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NoAim:

"Pop quiz hot shot...."





shoot the hostage

Link Posted: 4/4/2006 3:09:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dabigbozman:

Originally Posted By NoAim:

"Pop quiz hot shot...."





shoot the hostage

www.megsplace.com/et/speed/spd4.jpg



"Those white bastards are gonna die!" (the targets).
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 5:21:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/4/2006 5:22:42 PM EDT by Gunkata]

Originally Posted By PromptCritical:

Originally Posted By dabigbozman:

Originally Posted By PromptCritical:
Y'know, I'll make your day. I'll give you $200 for the lot. Nice profit huh?



I was almost thinking of seeing if anyone wanted to trade for (1) case of XM193 Federal but I think I'm gonna see how it shoots, if it fucks up at PR I will make someone an awesome on the spot deal



I call dibs!



I call dibs part 2

Share some with me Prompt!@!

Oh and I'm sure he's either a REally Big Guy or some midget..

before anyone says anythingNOT ME!
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 5:41:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TangoFoxtrot:
I've found Wolf to be too inaccurate for the long range targets at PR. It's fine for close quarters targets, just don't aim too close to the white hostage targets. Arfcomers have a tendency to cut a close line on them.




Yup, I couldn't hit ANY of the long range targets last time...
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 8:51:40 PM EDT
I don't think I will have much of a problem in the handgun stage anymore. I can actually hit crap now.
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 6:11:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TangoFoxtrot:
I've found Wolf to be too inaccurate for the long range targets at PR. It's fine for close quarters targets, just don't aim too close to the white hostage targets. Arfcomers have a tendency to cut a close line on them.



I'm not claiming that Wolf steel case .223 is accurate (when I shoot it on paper for group size/zero the results are appalling), however, for PR matches it's been fine for me. Last match's four 230 yard targets (what were they - 8" rounds? 10" rounds? 12" rounds?) only required one to three shots for a hit (for me, YMMV). The targets were roughly 4.5moa (I say "roughly" because I'm only guestimating size and distance) - even with Wolf steel case .223 I would guess (expect? hope?!) that most (.223 AR) rifle/shooter combinations are capable of shooting 4.5moa from prone (at that distance), right?

Optics help, but if the eyes are in fair shape then iron sights can get the job done. Phil and Kyle (and others) have been proving that recently.

Would M193 or match ammo have resulted in a significant difference? They are 100% more expensive (or more!) than Wolf... but I'm not convinced that for the target size/distance we shoot in the PR match that one needs premium ammo. I started PR with American Eagle .223 ~four years ago and switched to Wolf when they released the polymer coated case. I don't feel that I'm at a disadvantage. If I had lots of money I wouldn't bother with Wolf - as things are now, I'm on a tight budget and Wolf gets the job done.

I'm happy to keep an open mind, so share your experience. Maybe I am at a distinct and significant disadvantage (wouldn't I like to blame my misses on Wolf!) - but at this point I wouldn't tell others that they did poorly on a stage due to Wolf (although it does make a handy scapegoat!).

Respectfully,

ac
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 6:30:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 6:48:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ac4wordplay:

...I would guess (expect? hope?!) that most (.223 AR) rifle/shooter combinations are capable of shooting 4.5moa from prone (at that distance), right?



I'd be lucky to get a steel case Wolf group that tight from the bench at 100 yards!

I have Black Hills ammo that can do that at the 240ish yard range we shot at and Black Hills and Hornady ammo that can't.

For PR I carry blasting ammo and Black Hills that shoot to the same point of impact. For precision I use the BH magazine. For CQB I use the blasting ammo mag. That's my money saving tip. Except that I originally bought the current blasting ammo for overall PR use but found the accuracy so shotgun pellet like that it's only good for CQB engagements. Even then it shoots awfully close to the hostages. It's Korean PMC.
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 7:30:57 PM EDT
TangoFoxtrot,

If you have BH and Hornady ammo that can't shoot ~4.5moa @ ~240 yards and Wolf won't from a bench @ 100 yards... I wonder if it's a bullet weight/barrel twist issue? Or...?

I had originally planned on the "two magazine" technique you mentioned, but found it unnecessary (for my setup, YMMV).

Respectfully,

ac
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 8:00:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ac4wordplay:
TangoFoxtrot,

If you have BH and Hornady ammo that can't shoot ~4.5moa @ ~240 yards and Wolf won't from a bench @ 100 yards... I wonder if it's a bullet weight/barrel twist issue? Or...?

I had originally planned on the "two magazine" technique you mentioned, but found it unnecessary (for my setup, YMMV).

Respectfully,

ac



I see all the uber accuracy posts on this board too. Much of it is internet BS. I’ve read enough gun magazine BS to last a lifetime too. One lucky group out of 10 does not cut it, it has to be every group to be meaningful. Only accuracy that is repeatable on demand matters.

No one can internet BS it at Practical Rifle matches, you either hit the target or you miss. One shot kills rule there.
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 8:05:27 PM EDT
Think of it this way....the more you miss, the more trigger time you'll have.
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 8:12:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Unka-Boo:
Think of it this way....the more you miss, the more trigger time you'll have.



I think it would be cool if PR would run a match like Speed Steel. Shoot each stage 5 times in a row!
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 8:16:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/6/2006 8:17:18 PM EDT by NoAim]

Originally Posted By TangoFoxtrot:

Originally Posted By Unka-Boo:
Think of it this way....the more you miss, the more trigger time you'll have.



I think it would be cool if PR would run a match like Speed Steel. Shoot each stage 5 times in a row!



You know, aside from the increased ammo requirements, I'd like to see it have 2-3 runs, low one tossed.

But, That'd up the round count to about 300 average, with a worst case of 600. That's $60-$110/match man.

I'd need to start reloading....

As an aside, using a .40S&W reloads at speed steel is about $40/match.
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 8:28:25 PM EDT
The only problem with that is it would turn into a weekend event.......but I too would like the chance to run it twice sometimes.
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 8:30:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 8:32:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NoAim:
As an aside, using a .40S&W reloads at speed steel is about $40/match.



There is no greater precision and attention to detail required in reloading than when loading .40 cal. It is an extremely unforgiving round. Even factory loads (with what would have been minor or unnoticed problems in any other caliber) have blown up guns. I would stay far far away from reloaded .40 cal ammo.

I think UMC factory .40 cal in 250 rd bulk packs at Bimart is around $40
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 8:39:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/6/2006 8:40:25 PM EDT by TangoFoxtrot]

Originally Posted By petagunner:
Has anyone contacted Randy in regards to this?

Also, maybe we all should put our heads togethor and design a stage or two. After all, doesn't the arfcom crowd make up about 1/3 of the total attendance there?



Anyone with a stage idea can run it by Randy. If he approves it then YOU have to set it up on Friday night. I'm sure the arfcom hive mind could design some good stages. I'm not creative in this regard myself so I'll just stay on the sidelines and criticize advise
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 9:15:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/6/2006 9:18:19 PM EDT by NoAim]

Originally Posted By TangoFoxtrot:

Originally Posted By petagunner:
Has anyone contacted Randy in regards to this?

Also, maybe we all should put our heads togethor and design a stage or two. After all, doesn't the arfcom crowd make up about 1/3 of the total attendance there?



Anyone with a stage idea can run it by Randy. If he approves it then YOU have to set it up on Friday night. I'm sure the arfcom hive mind could design some good stages. I'm not creative in this regard myself so I'll just stay on the sidelines and criticize advise



To do mine, we need a door. So we can kick it in. Then a padded steel pepper popper for a good buttstroke as you come through the door. Pick up your mag from the table, load and fire at the 3 targets in the room. Move forward and engage remaining target around corner. Go to window and fire at swinger. Or instead of a swinger, a target 90% obscured by cardboard/plywood. You must engage through the wood (ineffective cover).

Fast, rocket.

Link Posted: 4/6/2006 9:17:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 9:22:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By petagunner:
Damn, if I had some angle laying around, and an old door, that wouldn't be too hard to fab. It would have to have some really heavy duty hinges and a steel reinforcment around the latch, but totally do-able



Yep. I want to do the buttstroke thing, but there's two problems with it. While the rifle is cleared and unloaded before you begin, with people swinging it around, you'll break the 180 and the muzzle level.
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 9:32:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 10:11:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By petagunner:



Now, gunkata should be thankfull he got rid of that plastic rifle he had, it would have shattered



Now as soon as i read NoAim's post about butt stroke.. I was waiting to read someting in reference to my past purchase and there it is.

I'm Ready to Rock and ROLL with mY CAA Stock with the fancy doo dadds on it and a compartment where "you put your weed in there". -SNL Adam sandler and Rob Snieder.
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 10:15:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 10:48:06 PM EDT
Loading up mags now and gave the AR a full clean.
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 11:16:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/6/2006 11:16:18 PM EDT by PromptCritical]

Originally Posted By Gunkata:

Originally Posted By petagunner:



Now, gunkata should be thankfull he got rid of that plastic rifle he had, it would have shattered



Now as soon as i read NoAim's post about butt stroke.. I was waiting to read someting in reference to my past purchase and there it is.

I'm Ready to Rock and ROLL with mY CAA Stock with the fancy doo dadds on it and a compartment where "you put your weed in there". -SNL Adam sandler and Rob Snieder.



After the last match, I think you're done "rockin' and rollin'".
Link Posted: 4/7/2006 6:05:17 AM EDT
Oh Ye hath little faith!!.. I have aquired a New Bushmaster Bolt and carrier. We shall see how fast i get DQ'd this time.!! By the way, the burst firing was caused by the Carrier Key having a broken bolt and also the stock i had on there and tube and recoil buffer/spring was stiff and sticking.

Changed out the stock spring and Recoilbuffer/ Tube.. the whole shabang!. and no problems until some kid from Kalifornia broke the carrier key bolt.
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