Posted: 1/1/2014 3:13:41 PM EDT
I've been pondering for some time, what, exactly is the difference between some of the models Palmetto state offers and some of the higher end manufacturers such as Daniel Defense and LMT? For instance:
Palmetto State 
Daniel Defense V7 Thoughts? |
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I am. Show me where my thinking is wrong, because I don't get it. Other than price, of course Quoted:
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Not sure if serious.... I am. Show me where my thinking is wrong, because I don't get it. Other than price, of course Unimpeachable parts sourcing, higher quality barrel, and a fanatical level of customer support would be a start. PSA sells some good stuff. DD is all good stuff. And they make most of it. |
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Unimpeachable parts sourcing, higher quality barrel, and a fanatical level of customer support would be a start. PSA sells some good stuff. DD is all good stuff. And they make most of it. Quoted:
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Not sure if serious.... I am. Show me where my thinking is wrong, because I don't get it. Other than price, of course Unimpeachable parts sourcing, higher quality barrel, and a fanatical level of customer support would be a start. PSA sells some good stuff. DD is all good stuff. And they make most of it. Now, I want you all to realize that I'm not picking a fight here, but what makes a DD barre lhigher quality than an FN barrel? |
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Pictures are totally, 100% meaningless. Post the actual specifications of each and someone will comment. Quoted:
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And, crickets.... Pictures are totally, 100% meaningless. Post the actual specifications of each and someone will comment. Well, the specs are the same |
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Specs aren't the same. Service after the sale ain't the same. Hell, service before the sale ain't the same. I gave you one example with the rails, and you said MI rails are good stuff. You're wrong. They are OK at best, especially when next to a DD rail. If you honestly think those two rails are comparable, then there is no point in explaining anything else to you, as it is obvious you've never held a rifle that was built by a manufacturer that actually has a quality control department
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Specs aren't the same. Service after the sale ain't the same. Hell, service before the sale ain't the same. I gave you one example with the rails, and you said MI rails are good stuff. You're wrong. They are OK at best, especially when next to a DD rail. If you honestly think those two rails are comparable, then there is no point in explaining anything else to you, as it is obvious you've never held a rifle that was built by a manufacturer that actually has a quality control department That's what I'm asking. Don't just say brand x is better, but tell me why. Nobody has yet |
| I like PSA stuff. Its served me well. My friend has their 16" SS wilson barrel and its extremely accurate. Its the same barrel thats on my RRA NM rifle that I got about 10 years ago(mines 20in though). I don't see what all the mess is with rails. Not everyone can afford a $300 set of rails, so some of us go with the $140 ones. |
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I don't see what all the mess is with rails. Not everyone can afford a $300 set of rails, so some of us go with the $140 ones. I think that's kind of what Blender is getting at. He wants to know WHY one is better than the other and HOW a higher price is justified. I could be wrong though. Blender - I can't speak to specific materials or barrels but I can tell you that there is a noticeable difference when handling a Rock River rail next to a Daniel Defense or Wilson Combat rail. Immediate differences I can see and feel are better machining (less/no machining marks on the DD or Wilson), better attention to detail like no sharp edges and better engineering in the mount. Honestly for me it's a "feel" thing when it comes to rails. I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will chime in. |
| I'll agree with that. They are nicer rails, but I can't justify spending the money just for a that, but I'm one of those people that usually just gets a middle of the road something to get by. I've handled several DD and Noveske stuff, but IMO, I simply can't justify spending the money for that higher quality stuff. I'd rather use the funds to buy another gun. Also, I like the way the YHM diamond rails look, and the MI T series rails. I think it comes down to balancing out your preferences with your wallet. |
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I think that's kind of what Blender is getting at. He wants to know WHY one is better than the other and HOW a higher price is justified. I could be wrong though. Blender - I can't speak to specific materials or barrels but I can tell you that there is a noticeable difference when handling a Rock River rail next to a Daniel Defense or Wilson Combat rail. Immediate differences I can see and feel are better machining (less/no machining marks on the DD or Wilson), better attention to detail like no sharp edges and better engineering in the mount. Honestly for me it's a "feel" thing when it comes to rails. I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will chime in. Quoted:
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I don't see what all the mess is with rails. Not everyone can afford a $300 set of rails, so some of us go with the $140 ones. I think that's kind of what Blender is getting at. He wants to know WHY one is better than the other and HOW a higher price is justified. I could be wrong though. Blender - I can't speak to specific materials or barrels but I can tell you that there is a noticeable difference when handling a Rock River rail next to a Daniel Defense or Wilson Combat rail. Immediate differences I can see and feel are better machining (less/no machining marks on the DD or Wilson), better attention to detail like no sharp edges and better engineering in the mount. Honestly for me it's a "feel" thing when it comes to rails. I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will chime in. Yes, that's it. Bear in mind, I've got or had Noveskes, LMT'S, DD'S, and my most recent purchase is the PSA. I still don't get it. |
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i think alot of choices come down to what your are doing with the weapon systems. to the average joe shooter, i think PSA would be fine, they do make a decent product and the MI rails are of decent quality. I think Daniel Defense and LMT and BCM really watch their quality control, some of the companies sell to the military, so the end user is going to expect a high level of quality control. from what i have seen Colt and BCM set the standard for such high marks. another angle is that lots of folks are willing to pay more such names as Colt, BCM, LMT, Daniel Defense, LWRC, H&K because they have the time invested in the product with R&D, they also go the extra mile to verify the products they sell.
PSA has some impressive specs on their barrels produced by FN, but FN doesn't assemble their weapons, there have been reports of spotty quality control, i have seen this first hand on a PSA assembled upper that the bolt carrier assembly had to be forced into and you could hardly pull the BCG back out with the charging handle, that upper went back 3 times until they replaced the whole upper with a M4A1 upper which has been spot on. a friend here bought a BCG with no gas key staking and no firing pin, that took a act of congress to get straightened out. at first their LPK's were very good then i noticed DPMS like gritty triggers in their LPK's. i think and this only my opinion. if you have time and patience PSA is a good bet. i do buy ammo from them all the time, and have bought multiple AR15 pistol build kits from them, that has turned out fine. on the Midwest Industries hand guards being junk, that might be much. i've run several of their products and they have held up very well, are they as well machined as Geissele or DD rails, no. but for a hobbyist that shoots on the weekends, the occasional 2 gun match, rides around with buddies on their property and shoot all kinds of stuff, the MI are fine and have never loosened up, fallen off or failed in any way. i have a set of MI quad rails on my Colt MK18 upper and have shot that sucker many times with a full auto lower and the handguards have never failed, loosened up, etc....i do plan to upgrade these with some Geissele's this year, just because i can. in short PSA is worth the price for the guy that punches paper, hobby, hunting, knock around truck gun. OP only you can justify the extra cost. i can say that if you spend the extra coil all the companies i mentioned above have great customer service, what that is needed. all this is just my opinion, YMMV |
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Here's a little food for thought. The US Military uses weapons made by the lowest bidder. I've ran a cheap Olympic arms through about 8000 rounds in different classes. It hasn't broke on me yet. I've ran it dry as hell and wet as a oil bucket. It just runs. I would love to have a DD or a LaRue weapon. I just spend the extra money on ammo and training. I'm not knocking the high end stuff, but what good is any of them if all they do is adorn the safe?
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I have been told that noveske and dpms lowers are made in the same factories... Probably forged in the same forge. Made in the same factory? No. The blank for gongs are machined at the respective manufacturer's plants, with different quality equipment and different QC specs. A forging =/= a complete lower. Just something in a basic lower shape. |
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There are only a handful of companies making forged lowers for most of the main players, there are probably hundreds of shops doing billet lowers.There even less players making forged uppers.
IIRC, LMT, CMT, and LAR make lowers for most of the common AR companies. Gajeep, I believe noveske, stag, colt, RRA, S&W, and Wilson are made buy CMT, and DPMS, Bushmaster, spikes, CMMG, and Double Star are made by LAR. Olympic makes PSA lowers, and I do not know who makes DD's forged lowers, but I'd bet it is one of the four listed above. Blender, to answer your question as simple as I can, there is not much difference, if money is no object I'd get a LMT, if it is a object go PSA. To me the most important parts on a AR are the barrel, and the trigger, all the rest is just the supporting cast. So if you get the PSA and it does not shoot like you want, get a better barrel and trigger, and you will still be way ahead of the DD price. Or just build your own, like I do. |
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I can tell you that I've owned DD, LMT, Colt, and some stuff I have put together.
The PSA upper I recently got is a tackdriver. It actually is "presently" shooting better than the $400 Rainier Ultramatch barrel that I bought. I think I'll find a load in the end that is better, but I am thoroughly impressed with the performance of the PSA barrel. I am not sure what to think of the long term suitability of the bolts or LPK. That's where the majority of the failures are. Logically it makes sense to me to spend an extra $20-30 on a known LPK and an extra $40 to buy a known BCG. They may be made in the same factory to the same specs for all I know. Like most, I am not competent enough to tell you whether its worth the price difference. I think most folks who tell you they can immediately see/feel the performance difference of the non cosmetic parts are exaggerating. There was a batch of guys who immediately ramsacked Dell computers when they came on the scene saying they were junk, that they wouldn't last etc. and to buy IBM, etc. I don't know know if we are dealing with a company driving quality or price down, only time will tell. |
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Here's a little food for thought. The US Military uses weapons made by the lowest bidder but up to their specs. I've ran a cheap Olympic arms through about 8000 rounds in different classes. It hasn't broke on me yet. I've ran it dry as hell and wet as a oil bucket. It just runs. I would love to have a DD or a LaRue weapon. I just spend the extra money on ammo and training. I'm not knocking the high end stuff, but what good is any of them if all they do is adorn the safe? FIFY. And while PSA is more than most will ever need, the discerning shooter will now a difference. Take random LPks from different manufacturers, and while all will be "milspec", the trigger in each will likely feel different. The way the BCG in one rifle slides in the upper may feel slicker with one manufacturer over another. It's these little nuances that add up IMHO. It's all fun and games till you go to grab your truck gun and fire a shot at a coyote and the bolt locks back due to a dent in the buffer tube. Or the front sight is off because the thin aluminum rail tweaked to one side because you sat a tool bag on it. Buy once cry once is a really great motto if you want to rely on your weapon to be ready when you are. And while my truck gun doesn't look like much, I totaled up that I have close to $1300 in it. And that's without a rail. This thing has never let me down in its current configuration, and gets abused on a regular basis. 
something cheaper may work for you, but everyone's needs are different. |
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I can tell you that I've owned DD, LMT, Colt, and some stuff I have put together. The PSA upper I recently got is a tackdriver. It actually is "presently" shooting better than the $400 Rainier Ultramatch barrel that I bought. I think I'll find a load in the end that is better, but I am thoroughly impressed with the performance of the PSA barrel. I am not sure what to think of the long term suitability of the bolts or LPK. That's where the majority of the failures are. Logically it makes sense to me to spend an extra $20-30 on a known LPK and an extra $40 to buy a known BCG. They may be made in the same factory to the same specs for all I know. Like most, I am not competent enough to tell you whether its worth the price difference. I think most folks who tell you they can immediately see/feel the performance difference of the non cosmetic parts are exaggerating. There was a batch of guys who immediately ramsacked Dell computers when they came on the scene saying they were junk, that they wouldn't last etc. and to buy IBM, etc. I don't know know if we are dealing with a company driving quality or price down, only time will tell. the M4a1 upper my brother got back after his debacle has been very accurate and run very reliably on all types of ammo. the BCG and all are PSA, i'm very interested in seeing how this rifle is running in 2 years, i'm sure it will be fine. i believe PSA makes a good product, when they get their "teething" issues fixed, i'm sure they will be a solid performer |
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all i can add is my own experience. I have bought a bunch of PSA stuff. I also own a LMT and a Colt. Honestly the Colt and LMT are nicer, but not by much. Mostly i notice it by finding fault with my PSA stuff. The LMT and Colt are nothing special. But EVERYTHING is right out of the box. The triggers are mil-spec but completely except able. The PSA trigger is ROUGH, and each one i have is different, no consistency. One of them is so bad i almost cant use it. I dont shoot precision and dont own any fancy triggers so my standards are pretty normal. That one PSA trigger is just terrible. The Colt and LMT BCG are staked much nicer, but the PSA is probable good enough. The castle nut on my LMT and Colt are also staked very nicely where my PSA is not staked at all. All very small difference but they MIGHT make a difference. If this was the only difference then you could get a PSA and fix these issues yourself and be GTG.
But there is one reason i am basically done with PSA. They are completely inconsistent with there product quality, what they advertise and what they ship. For example, i personally have gotten really picky and only want buffer tubes made from 7075. They are really only a few dollars more and if i ever need the rifle i dont want to worry about bending or breaking a buffer tube doing something dumb. If I order a Colt or LMT i know ( i think) that i will 100% get the 7075 tube they advertise. They dont even sell more than one type of buffer tube. But if you look at PSA web page every week there products change specs. Clearly they get from different venders. Some 5 hole, some 6 hole, some 7075, some not specified. If you call them some of the employees dont even know which are what. I have called and asked the specs of the same item multiple times to different employees and i get different specs from each employee. On MULTIPLE times i have ordered one grade of item and received a different grade. They have always made it right for me but it is disconcerting. Look at there BCGs, the specs change all the time. To me this is a big problem. I want to know that if i order a part, i am getting the quality that I can bet my life on and that it i is the same spec and part every time. It is not so much that one art or spec is that much BETTER than the other. It is that I want the parts to be consistent. Personally, i like having 100% faith that every little part is as good as it can be, or at least as good as it needs to be. I dont want a small nagging voice of doubt that something was miss marked or miss shipped. Maybe one batch from PSA is one vender and the next s another. Maybe one bolt fits my barrel but when i have to use my spare BCG maybe it is slightly different or from a different vender and does not work. To me PSA switching things around just adds another variable that I DONT FEEL i have with Colt or LMT. Maybe it does not matter. But i sleep better at night not worrying about it. Let me also say that i still love one of my PSA rifle. As soon as i fix the garbage trigger it will be even better! 
I even liked one enough to SBR it 
But i like my LMT a little better  (she is still waiting on a Micro)
Really all the pictures are just a excuse for some rifle porn, makes every thread better! |
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Well, I guess BCM is now considered "junk" since they offer uppers with MI rail systems...  I never called the upper junk because they were offered with that rail, I'm calling MI rails lower quality than most others. I've installed them for others, but I will never spend my money on one. For a comparable price, the ranier/samson evo is a much better rail |
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Quoted: First thing that pops into my head is quality of materials. That rail on the PSA rifle is junk. Exactly what MI rails have you installed? The gen 2 barrel nut is one of the better lightweight designs on the market... You just sound bitter to the brand for some reason. BTW, I have a few different DD and Noveske build's as well so I am aware of the quality that is there. Different guns for different scenarios. But I would trust my life with both of them. If you were talking about their PTAC line, I would agree with you 100%. |
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From the horses mouth... Exactly what MI rails have you installed? The gen 2 barrel nut is one of the better lightweight designs on the market... You just sound bitter to the brand for some reason. BTW, I have a few different DD and Noveske build's as well so I am aware of the quality that is there. Different guns for different scenarios. But I would trust my life with both of them. If you were talking about their PTAC line, I would agree with you 100%. Quoted:
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First thing that pops into my head is quality of materials. That rail on the PSA rifle is junk. Exactly what MI rails have you installed? The gen 2 barrel nut is one of the better lightweight designs on the market... You just sound bitter to the brand for some reason. BTW, I have a few different DD and Noveske build's as well so I am aware of the quality that is there. Different guns for different scenarios. But I would trust my life with both of them. If you were talking about their PTAC line, I would agree with you 100%. Gen 2 free float x3. Gen 1 free float And a couple of dropins |
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Midwest products often have a poor rep from their older line of rails and parts.It's hard to get out from under a bad reputation. I'm talking about their initial $100 Drop In Rails and cheap BUIS.
That said here is my perspective- I have owned, installed, shot, broken, or sold just about everything AR-15 related. I've seen quality manufacturers sink to new lows, and brands that were once backroom builds rise to quality firearms. I've been on both sides of the counter and have had the opportunity the past 20 months to see manufacturing from the inside. John, your question is a good one, and one that I would have hoped by now that you could answer for customers. There are lots of differences between the two. Daniel Defense is a quality manufacturer that has been in business for over a decade. They have military contracts and have been part of SOPMOD Block 2 as well as the MK18 MOD1 projects. They hold their QC very high by manufacturing the majority of their parts in house. Their barrels are cold hammer forged In house and are generally considered amongst some of the best made non-stainless barrels around. Their LPK's are highly regarded and I have built many a rifle with them. By maintaining a flow of quality parts either made in house or from trusted parts shops they can maintain their model line up and keep their quality level high. They also have a larger footprint in regards to their production facility as well as equipment. Those CNC machines, lathes, and barrel making doohickeys are not cheap. Neither is the extensive R&D work that goes into their product line either. Palmetto State Armory has only been manufacturing uppers and complete rifles for a couple years. They saw a gap in the marketplace for a quality lower priced alternative to top tier manufactured rifles. They began assembling rifles and uppers at first from parts purchased from manufactures/ suppliers with excess parts. If memory serves right they were one of DD's bigger parts dealers a few years back. But either by design or by necessity they typically make small batches of the flavor of the week/ month. They typically don't build a particular model for very long. Perhaps this keeps their line up fresh, perhaps they run out of off the shelf parts and change it up. Their shop is a large part of the promotion of their rifles. They are growing and purchase a good deal of their barrels direct from FNH USA- which is right down the road from them. Bottom line they bolt together what other people manufacture for them, That is not necessarily a bad thing, but you were asking what the difference is. In a nutshell I wouldn't say that rifles and uppers are the primary business for PSA. Their retail business drives the money train and the rifles and uppers are gravy and helps drive their web business. They can build a quality product, and the simple fact is that for the overwhelming majority of buyers out there a $500 DPMS Oracle will more than suit their needs. But if people only bought what they needed people like you and I would have to find honest work. Daniel Defense is in it for the long haul and is not going anywhere. Marty is a great guy and they have a solid group of individuals that run the company. DD builds a high quality product and they know it, so they charge a premium for it. Damn I love America. |
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There isnt much since most parts are sourced from the same manufacture, very few make their own barrels, receivers, LPK's, BCG's, ect. That being said DD does obviously manufacture a lot of their own parts and are of very high quality.
Most people wont admit that their $2k rifle is on par your $700 rifle and get butt hurt when you do. Also, the 2 MI rails Ive installed have been extremely quality. |
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The difference is piece of mind.
You know you are buying quality when you buy a Daniel Defense, BCM etc... Just looking at various 'specs' on websites these days is a chore. Interpreting them all is even more difficult if you aren't an expert or engineer. All claim they are mil spec, mpi tested etc..., but when there is a glaring price difference somethings got to give. I came across a thread in the spikes industry forum recently showing lab report results from where they had various parts tested, very technical info. For instance, PSA says FN makes their barrels, but I don't know if that means to the same specs as all other FN barrels? Even on BCM's website you have to be careful reading specs. Some barrels are $50 cheaper than others that appear the same. Well, if you read closely it is b/c not all of their barrels are cold hammer forged. I'm frugal and cheap, but appreciate quality and will pay for it. Because I do not truly understand all of the technical differences, I've yet to be convinced to buy some of these other manufacturers parts kits or barrels. Haven't bought a complete rifle in awhile, but same goes. Buy what you are comfortable buying. Intended use, individual tolerance, budget and user expectations all have a lot to do with it. I value my time as much as the next guy, but it has also become increasingly limited, so when I go to the range, a match, or hunting I want my firearms to work as intended. You can bet your a$$ I want them to work in a self defense situation too. Piece of mind is what sells me. Well that and I've gotten some impressive results out of DD CHF barrels, so am sold on CHF'ing. these quotes come to mind.... Buy once, cry once. The bitterness of poor quality lingers long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten. If time (and money in ammo) is on your side to vet out an 'unknown' manufacturer, then do it. I'd like to one day, but don't have the time or ammo right now. If I had the ammo, I'd make the time 
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Well I got in late on this.
My 2 cents worth is this. Get what you can afford to buy 2 of, because I don't care if its made of elf farts and unicorn penis. If you don't have a spare the shit will fail when you need it most. My experience has been if its made by a man its fallible, some more easily than others but fallible nonetheless. Looking your stuff over with a critical eye is another thing that bothers me.. Do you just jump in your car every morning? Well whether its a Mercedes or a Festiva you're still on the side of the road if you don't notice that puddle of "insert fluid of choice " when you back out in the morning. Redundancy, is redundant
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I have a PSA 20" A4 with the FN barrel. I assembled the lower with their parts pllus a Geissele SSA trigger. It will hit a D target all day long at 600 yards from prone with M193. I've ran Max Velocity's Combat Rifle course with it and it performed flawlessly with a mix of lacquer coated Monarch, reloads and Tula.
Several thousand rounds through it with no problems other than a mag that wouldn't feed right. No complaints from me. |
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When I'm running a carbine class and one of my students is having constant malfunctions, it's never a factory DD, Noveske, LMT or similar factory rifle. It's always a less-expensive brand, or one that was assembled out of less-expensive parts.
Folks go out and plink regularly for years and then say, "I've got a Brand X, had it for 5 years, never had a problem!" Then they attend some formal training and try to run 500-600rds a day for 2 days out of it. Suddenly, it's not running as well as it did in the backyard. I see the same thing with shotguns like the Mossberg 500........folks don't understand why it won't run as well as the Rem870, Moss590, or high end Remington, FN or Benelli autoloaders. |
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Now, I want you all to realize that I'm not picking a fight here, but what makes a DD barre lhigher quality than an FN barrel? Quoted:
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Not sure if serious.... I am. Show me where my thinking is wrong, because I don't get it. Other than price, of course Unimpeachable parts sourcing, higher quality barrel, and a fanatical level of customer support would be a start. PSA sells some good stuff. DD is all good stuff. And they make most of it. Now, I want you all to realize that I'm not picking a fight here, but what makes a DD barre lhigher quality than an FN barrel? Are all barrels from PSA made by FN, and can you be sure that they are of first quality every time? When you buy a LPK from PSA, are you 100 percent sure that the parts in the kit are the same quality as the one you bought last year? I know ones I have bought over the past 3 years or so have varied widely in trigger feel, and finish. None has been real bad, but some have been less good. I have bought tons of stuff from PSA, and still will. Not every rifle you build for all needs needs to be perfect. A few rifles you have for specific needs should be as close as you can get though. PSA will happily tell you that they source parts from various manufacturers, bolt them together, and build rifles. Some of them are damned good. Where DD or other similar model vendors will use the same parts source, or inhouse manufacturing on every rifle, to make sure they are all damned good. |
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Are all barrels from PSA made by FN, and can you be sure that they are of first quality ? Quoted:
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Not sure if serious.... I am. Show me where my thinking is wrong, because I don't get it. Other than price, of course Unimpeachable parts sourcing, higher quality barrel, and a fanatical level of customer support would be a start. PSA sells some good stuff. DD is all good stuff. And they make most of it. Now, I want you all to realize that I'm not picking a fight here, but what makes a DD barre lhigher quality than an FN barrel? Are all barrels from PSA made by FN, and can you be sure that they are of first quality ? I can assure you that 100% of PSA barrels are not FN. Top tier manufacturers have a vested interest in not disclosing their suppliers. This is multifold. One is if they say that X manufacturer makes the best Bolt carrier then all the lower tier manufacturers will flock like locusts to X supplier. This would make getting those quality parts more difficult. Secondly if a Top Tier manufacturer states that they use Y barrels then a lower tier company can claim "we use the same barrels as Z, our guns are just the same but cheaper!!!!!" It's lose, lose. |
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I have a PSA 20" A4 with the FN barrel. I assembled the lower with their parts pllus a Geissele SSA trigger. It will hit a D target all day long at 600 yards from prone with M193. I've ran Max Velocity's Combat Rifle course with it and it performed flawlessly with a mix of lacquer coated Monarch, reloads and Tula. Several thousand rounds through it with no problems other than a mag that wouldn't feed right. No complaints from me. I have one of the PSA 20" A2 profile FN's too. It is one of the most accurate 20's I own. My luck with the shorter ones has been mixed. |
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I have one of the PSA 20" A2 profile FN's too. It is one of the most accurate 20's I own. My luck with the shorter ones has been mixed. Quoted:
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I have a PSA 20" A4 with the FN barrel. I assembled the lower with their parts pllus a Geissele SSA trigger. It will hit a D target all day long at 600 yards from prone with M193. I've ran Max Velocity's Combat Rifle course with it and it performed flawlessly with a mix of lacquer coated Monarch, reloads and Tula. Several thousand rounds through it with no problems other than a mag that wouldn't feed right. No complaints from me. I have one of the PSA 20" A2 profile FN's too. It is one of the most accurate 20's I own. My luck with the shorter ones has been mixed. my go to is a CHF m4 profile 14.7. nothing but flawless. killed a hog with it a few weeks ago at 130 yards and has over 2k rounds with 0 malfs. accuracy is about 1moa in some change, but have never formally thrown high glass on it. i just rock it with a ta31f and did some bench shooting with a gps02. im sure the group would shrink using even better ammo (i was using fusion). PSA wait time sucks but they offer good products for the price. when i have a real job in a year ill move up the chain of ARs and get into the 'top tier' to see how they preform. as of now, 0 complaints through several PSA rifles. pic: 
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Midwest products often have a poor rep from their older line of rails and parts.It's hard to get out from under a bad reputation. I'm talking about their initial $100 Drop In Rails and cheap BUIS. That said here is my perspective- I have owned, installed, shot, broken, or sold just about everything AR-15 related. I've seen quality manufacturers sink to new lows, and brands that were once backroom builds rise to quality firearms. I've been on both sides of the counter and have had the opportunity the past 20 months to see manufacturing from the inside. John, your question is a good one, and one that I would have hoped by now that you could answer for customers. There are lots of differences between the two. Daniel Defense is a quality manufacturer that has been in business for over a decade. They have military contracts and have been part of SOPMOD Block 2 as well as the MK18 MOD1 projects. They hold their QC very high by manufacturing the majority of their parts in house. Their barrels are cold hammer forged In house and are generally considered amongst some of the best made non-stainless barrels around. Their LPK's are highly regarded and I have built many a rifle with them. By maintaining a flow of quality parts either made in house or from trusted parts shops they can maintain their model line up and keep their quality level high. They also have a larger footprint in regards to their production facility as well as equipment. Those CNC machines, lathes, and barrel making doohickeys are not cheap. Neither is the extensive R&D work that goes into their product line either. Palmetto State Armory has only been manufacturing uppers and complete rifles for a couple years. They saw a gap in the marketplace for a quality lower priced alternative to top tier manufactured rifles. They began assembling rifles and uppers at first from parts purchased from manufactures/ suppliers with excess parts. If memory serves right they were one of DD's bigger parts dealers a few years back. But either by design or by necessity they typically make small batches of the flavor of the week/ month. They typically don't build a particular model for very long. Perhaps this keeps their line up fresh, perhaps they run out of off the shelf parts and change it up. Their shop is a large part of the promotion of their rifles. They are growing and purchase a good deal of their barrels direct from FNH USA- which is right down the road from them. Bottom line they bolt together what other people manufacture for them, That is not necessarily a bad thing, but you were asking what the difference is. In a nutshell I wouldn't say that rifles and uppers are the primary business for PSA. Their retail business drives the money train and the rifles and uppers are gravy and helps drive their web business. They can build a quality product, and the simple fact is that for the overwhelming majority of buyers out there a $500 DPMS Oracle will more than suit their needs. But if people only bought what they needed people like you and I would have to find honest work. Daniel Defense is in it for the long haul and is not going anywhere. Marty is a great guy and they have a solid group of individuals that run the company. DD builds a high quality product and they know it, so they charge a premium for it. Damn I love America. I was hoping you'd chime in here. Thanks, that's what I was looking for |
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Are all barrels from PSA made by FN, and can you be sure that they are of first quality every time? When you buy a LPK from PSA, are you 100 percent sure that the parts in the kit are the same quality as the one you bought last year? I know ones I have bought over the past 3 years or so have varied widely in trigger feel, and finish. None has been real bad, but some have been less good. I have bought tons of stuff from PSA, and still will. Not every rifle you build for all needs needs to be perfect. A few rifles you have for specific needs should be as close as you can get though. PSA will happily tell you that they source parts from various manufacturers, bolt them together, and build rifles. Some of them are damned good. Where DD or other similar model vendors will use the same parts source, or inhouse manufacturing on every rifle, to make sure they are all damned good. Quoted:
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Not sure if serious.... I am. Show me where my thinking is wrong, because I don't get it. Other than price, of course Unimpeachable parts sourcing, higher quality barrel, and a fanatical level of customer support would be a start. PSA sells some good stuff. DD is all good stuff. And they make most of it. Now, I want you all to realize that I'm not picking a fight here, but what makes a DD barre lhigher quality than an FN barrel? Are all barrels from PSA made by FN, and can you be sure that they are of first quality every time? When you buy a LPK from PSA, are you 100 percent sure that the parts in the kit are the same quality as the one you bought last year? I know ones I have bought over the past 3 years or so have varied widely in trigger feel, and finish. None has been real bad, but some have been less good. I have bought tons of stuff from PSA, and still will. Not every rifle you build for all needs needs to be perfect. A few rifles you have for specific needs should be as close as you can get though. PSA will happily tell you that they source parts from various manufacturers, bolt them together, and build rifles. Some of them are damned good. Where DD or other similar model vendors will use the same parts source, or inhouse manufacturing on every rifle, to make sure they are all damned good. This was pretty much dead on what i was saying in my previous post. I will also continue to buy some stuff at PSA, but not as much as i used to. |