Posted: 3/30/2012 1:10:21 PM EDT
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I have been working with my G19 a lot recently. I do dry fire, reloading and drawing from the holster drills at least 5 nights a week. I need help with my speed though. I'm sure the Glock trigger isn't helping this but since I have learned to ride the reset I have noticed some improvement. To sum things up I am looking for dry fire and or live fire drills that will help me improve on my speed shooting. I can shoot great groups when I shoot slow but as soon as I step the speed up I am every where. Any and all suggestions welcome. |
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Controlled pairs
Helps force you to stop anticipating but keeps you from slamming the trigger till you run dry But honestly, lots lots and lots more practice, guys who shoot well fast usually started out by learning to shoot well one round at a time, over and over and over, and than you can step up to pairs, once your pairs are gtg move up to longer strings. It's more a question of trigger time, followed by gun specific practice than anything else The biggest cause of wide open groups when your shooting fast strings is that after the first shot you get over eager to get the others out and dump fundamentals. It's cliche, but slow is smooth and smooth is fast, |
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First of all, I'm no expert pistol shooter, not by a long shot, so keep that in mind.
So, shooting is a big mental activity, right? In many ways, its more mental than physical. One of the things I've kinda developed that has helped me out with that issue involves actively evaluating your mental activity during the shooting task. Trigger squeeze and sight picture are very important, as you say, and its really easy to keep all those things in mind during slow fire. Next time you try to shoot a bunch real quick, if you can, monitor what your mind is "saying." Is it saying, "one and two aaannnd thr- OOMMGMGGGGG ITS ONNNNN MAGGG DUMMMPPPP TTIMMMEEE!!! SO MANNNYYY BULLETTTSSS AHHHHH GEEETTTTT SUMMMMMMMMMMM BITTTCCHHEESSS AAHHHH FEEELLLLLLLLLL THHHEEEEEEEEE FUUUURRRRRYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!"? It may well be, ya just kinda get caught up in the excitement of the moment and it becomes more about making more lead leave here when it should be about making more lead hit there. I found I was kinda doing that. It's not like that is an actual voice in your head (if it is, that's actually kinda cool), but you know, that kinda feeling that's there. Your teachings may be keeping up alright, trying to be good, but the mind is a powerful force that can tell what you know you should be doing to go to hell, instead acting like an immature little teenager with ADD who is finishing his last exam essay before summer "ah thats close enough just get it done and lets get outta here!" (disclaimer: I was an immature little teenager with ADD up until I turned 20. Then I wasn't a teenager anymore. so no judgement on anyone  )
Try focusing on quieting your mind, the shooting speed is irrelevant, your mind can work a lot faster than you can pull the trigger, so there's plenty of capability there to discipline it. I don't know if that makes any sense, and you may be fine in this department, I just know that that's one thing I identified in myself one day (not too long ago) and have been working on ever since. I hope this at least makes a little sense? Don't know if anybody else has found this, it's just one of the major inhibitors to good shooting that I identified in myself. |
A wise man once told me, if you want to go faster........speed up 
I'm probably one of the last people to give advice b/c I'm still trying to get where I want to be myself. What do you mean speed shooting? One thing I've learned is shooting fast, doesn't necessarily just mean pulling the trigger fast. If you're hits are "all over the place" then increasing your trigger speed isn't gonna help. The front sight is your speedometer, period. Go faster than you can get your hits and your just burning powder and wasting money. Again, it's cliche' but fundamentals, fundamentals, fundamentals. Let the front sight regulate how fast you're pulling the trigger, and increase transitions to "speed up". Again, I'm far from where I want to be, and not half the shooter of several folks around here, but I have improved a bit in the past year thanks to help from many right here in the HTF and it all boiled down to 2 things plain and simple: 1. Fundamentals 2. Rounds down range |
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Controlled pairs The only problem with that is habitation....Ask me how I know.... 
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.....If you can, monitor what your mind is "saying." Is it saying, "one and two aaannnd thr- OOMMGMGGGGG ITS ONNNNN MAGGG DUMMMPPPP TTIMMMEEE!!! SO MANNNYYY BULLETTTSSS AHHHHH GEEETTTTT SUMMMMMMMMMMM BITTTCCHHEESSS AAHHHH FEEELLLLLLLLLL THHHEEEEEEEEE FUUUURRRRRYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!"? It may well be, ya just kinda get caught up in the excitement of the moment and it becomes more about making more lead leave here when it should be about making more lead hit there........ What if my mind is quiet but my pasty pistolero friend behind me ain't And I have evidence punk.
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Practice practice practice and more practice.
One thing that helped me the most I picked up in a class(imagine that). Start off by firing at a fairly close, big target... not focusing on the sights. Watch the movement of the slide through the arc of recoil. This will vary from person to person, firearm to firearm, etc. Each particular gun/shooter combo will have a specific arc of travel. Watch this arc through several firings til you pick up on the pulse of the recoil. Once you pick up on the rhythm of that particular gun in your hand focus on your sight picture and trigger control. Slowly speed up til you can keep a steady cadence working with the gun. Sounds kinda movie cliche but it worked for me. HTH And see you monday |
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Quoted: A wise man once told me, if you want to go faster........speed up I'm probably one of the last people to give advice b/c I'm still trying to get where I want to be myself. What do you mean speed shooting? One thing I've learned is shooting fast, doesn't necessarily just mean pulling the trigger fast. If you're hits are "all over the place" then increasing your trigger speed isn't gonna help. The front sight is your speedometer, period. Go faster than you can get your hits and your just burning powder and wasting money. Again, it's cliche' but fundamentals, fundamentals, fundamentals. Let the front sight regulate how fast you're pulling the trigger, and increase transitions to "speed up". Again, I'm far from where I want to be, and not half the shooter of several folks around here, but I have improved a bit in the past year thanks to help from many right here in the HTF and it all boiled down to 2 things plain and simple: 1. Fundamentals 2. Rounds down range I agree with John, you should only shoot as fast as you can see the sights. Just practice keeping track of your front sight and calling your shots. Something else you can try is to tell yourself/someone something that you noticed when the shot broke that you didn't notice before. I would also practice transitions between targets more than raw speed, which will most likely save you more time than fast splits. |
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Controlled pairs The only problem with that is habitation....Ask me how I know....
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.....If you can, monitor what your mind is "saying." Is it saying, "one and two aaannnd thr- OOMMGMGGGGG ITS ONNNNN MAGGG DUMMMPPPP TTIMMMEEE!!! SO MANNNYYY BULLETTTSSS AHHHHH GEEETTTTT SUMMMMMMMMMMM BITTTCCHHEESSS AAHHHH FEEELLLLLLLLLL THHHEEEEEEEEE FUUUURRRRRYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!"? It may well be, ya just kinda get caught up in the excitement of the moment and it becomes more about making more lead leave here when it should be about making more lead hit there........ What if my mind is quiet but my pasty pistolero friend behind me ain't And I have evidence punk.That's different. That's a stress-induced training environment and you should thank me. |
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Controlled pairs The only problem with that is habitation....Ask me how I know....
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.....If you can, monitor what your mind is "saying." Is it saying, "one and two aaannnd thr- OOMMGMGGGGG ITS ONNNNN MAGGG DUMMMPPPP TTIMMMEEE!!! SO MANNNYYY BULLETTTSSS AHHHHH GEEETTTTT SUMMMMMMMMMMM BITTTCCHHEESSS AAHHHH FEEELLLLLLLLLL THHHEEEEEEEEE FUUUURRRRRYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!"? It may well be, ya just kinda get caught up in the excitement of the moment and it becomes more about making more lead leave here when it should be about making more lead hit there........ What if my mind is quiet but my pasty pistolero friend behind me ain't And I have evidence punk.That's different. That's a stress-induced training environment and you should thank me. ..........yeah, we're cool. See you at the match Monday. |
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Luke, a lot of it is going to come down to time on the line, lead in the air, and holes in paper. Get a shot timer. Seriously, they are perfect for this. controlled pairs are good. I also like the old "failure" or Mozambique drill. (double tap chest, aimed/slower shot to head).
I also have a fun drill I do that involves post it notes or duct tape. But that one is really only good for open ranges. |
| My recommendation: Seek out professional training. There are many good instructors here in the HTF that can help you with what you've got going on. One or two good days with some of these people will do wonders for your abilities. Getting 12 opinions from 10 people online isn't the way to improve what you want to improve. |
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Before you can effectively accomplish shooting fast....and accurate; you need to master follow through. Master follow through and then start pushing the envelope for speed via faster, but yet proper trigger manipulation.
Follow through is a combination of utilizing proper stance, grip, recoil management and trigger manipulation. I'm not the hugest fan of dry fire, because recoil changes things. Recoil is like water, it travels in the path of least resistance. You must learn to manage it efficiently and effectively in order to be fast and accurate. You don't want to be fast without being accurate. Speed is not more important than accuracy nor vice versa, the two should go hand in hand. Wyatt Earp said "Speed is Fine but Accuracy is Final". While very much true, that is a little dated due to the technique they employed back in those days of the Single Action Revolver. Today our technique and equipment allow us to shoot faster, while being just as accurate, so I like to say "Speed is Fine, but accurate hits at hi-speed is final.....much faster". You can dry fire til your hearts content, but as soon as you introduce an explosion going off 2 feet in front of your face, things change. That is something that cannot be managed while dry firing. I am a huge advocate of dry practice. (e.g. draws, reloads, movement, manipulation, etc.). Those are areas that promote subconcious execution. My idea of dry fire is done as I drive down the road(with a completely clear weapon). I am only concerned with feeling the point at which the trigger resets. Pressing the trigger straight to the rear without disrupting my sights on target, for me, is only reinforced properly with live ammo. The art of follow through is the ability to track the sights completely through the arc of recoil while maintaining contact with the trigger and resetting the trigger as you track the sights back on to the target and prepare for the follow up shot. Proper follow through should allow you to be ready to break your follow up shot as soon as the gun settles out of recoil and the sights return to the target. With the above, your ability to manage recoil by way of a high performance grip and good body mechanics will allow you to get the sights back on target faster. Your ultimate goal is to see and read your sights for every shot. You will then start to gather the ability to call every shot that leaves your gun. As John mentioned, your front sight is your speedometer. If you cannot see and verify your sights prior to breaking the shot, you need to slow down and hone your core fundamentals. Once you master follow through and have honed your fundamentals to a point you are ready to start pushing the envelope of speed and accuracy, utilize a target called the trigger bar and a cadenced 6 shot drill. A trigger bar target is basically 2" wide and 6" tall. I have a .pdf version somewhere that I made. I basically have 4 trigger bars on an 8x11 sheet of paper in landscape view. Trigger Bar I believe is a coined target name given to this type of target by Andy Stanford. Start this at 5 yards from the ready and as you master it, move back to 7, then 10. I doubt you will ever make it to 15 as 10 is very very difficult. Then start to incorporate drawing from the holster utilizing a shot timer to initiate your draw. Then start performing it strong hand and support hand only. It is definitely a crawl walk run drill with plenty of falling on your face taking place in between. I start with the first bar and shoot 6 shots at a cadence of one one thousand, two one thousand, three one thousand, up to 6. Basically one shot per second. As one just starting off, it may be necessary to only shoot as fast as you can to get your hits within the trigger bar while maintaining conscious focus on follow through and trigger manipulation. Assuming all of my hits were contained within the trigger bar, I proceed to the next cadence of 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 and 6. One shot per half second. If all hits are within the trigger bar, speed up and move on to the next cadence sequence of 1,2,3,4,5,6. One shot per quarter second. If you successfully can put all your hits in to the trigger bar, it is time to move on to cyclic rate which depending on your skill will be somewhere between .14-.25 seconds per shot If at anytime, you fail to keep all your hits in the trigger bar, repeat that cadence and focus on your trigger manipulation and follow through. I often start many of my practice sessions with this target at 7 yards. My goal is to accomplish it in 24 rounds and only one target. It always helps get me dialed in on the fundamentals prior to beginning what I intend to practice that day. Eventually, the goal is for this to become subconcious execution aka unconscious competence. Expect this to take several thousand rounds minimum. I hope this helps you some. ETA: And to reinforce Sean's point above......seek out quality instruction. Performing under the watchful eye of a good instructor will help identify problem areas and correction can be made prior to adopting bad habits. It always takes 4-5 times more repetition to change a bad habit. |
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Quoted: Before you can effectively accomplish shooting fast....and accurate; you need to master follow through. Master follow through and then start pushing the envelope for speed via faster, but yet proper trigger manipulation. Follow through is a combination of utilizing proper stance, grip, recoil management and trigger manipulation. I'm not the hugest fan of dry fire, because recoil changes things. Recoil is like water, it travels in the path of least resistance. You must learn to manage it efficiently and effectively in order to be fast and accurate. You don't want to be fast without being accurate. Speed is not more important than accuracy nor vice versa, the two should go hand in hand. Wyatt Earp said "Speed is Fine but Accuracy is Final". While very much true, that is a little dated due to the technique they employed back in those days of the Single Action Revolver. Today our technique and equipment allow us to shoot faster, while being just as accurate, so I like to say "Speed is Fine, but accurate hits at hi-speed is final.....much faster". You can dry fire til your hearts content, but as soon as you introduce an explosion going off 2 feet in front of your face, things change. That is something that cannot be managed while dry firing. I am a huge advocate of dry practice. (e.g. draws, reloads, movement, manipulation, etc.). Those are areas that promote subconcious execution. My idea of dry fire is done as I drive down the road(with a completely clear weapon). I am only concerned with feeling the point at which the trigger resets. Pressing the trigger straight to the rear without disrupting my sights on target, for me, is only reinforced properly with live ammo. The art of follow through is the ability to track the sights completely through the arc of recoil while maintaining contact with the trigger and resetting the trigger as you track the sights back on to the target and prepare for the follow up shot. Proper follow through should allow you to be ready to break your follow up shot as soon as the gun settles out of recoil and the sights return to the target. With the above, your ability to manage recoil by way of a high performance grip and good body mechanics will allow you to get the sights back on target faster. Your ultimate goal is to see and read your sights for every shot. You will then start to gather the ability to call every shot that leaves your gun. As John mentioned, your front sight is your speedometer. If you cannot see and verify your sights prior to breaking the shot, you need to slow down and hone your core fundamentals. Once you master follow through and have honed your fundamentals to a point you are ready to start pushing the envelope of speed and accuracy, utilize a target called the trigger bar and a cadenced 6 shot drill. A trigger bar target is basically 2" wide and 6" tall. I have a .pdf version somewhere that I made. I basically have 4 trigger bars on an 8x11 sheet of paper in landscape view. Trigger Bar I believe is a coined target name given to this type of target by Andy Stanford. Start this at 5 yards from the ready and as you master it, move back to 7, then 10. I doubt you will ever make it to 15 as 10 is very very difficult. Then start to incorporate drawing from the holster utilizing a shot timer to initiate your draw. Then start performing it strong hand and support hand only. It is definitely a crawl walk run drill with plenty of falling on your face taking place in between. I start with the first bar and shoot 6 shots at a cadence of one one thousand, two one thousand, three one thousand, up to 6. Basically one shot per second. As one just starting off, it may be necessary to only shoot as fast as you can to get your hits within the trigger bar while maintaining conscious focus on follow through and trigger manipulation. Assuming all of my hits were contained within the trigger bar, I proceed to the next cadence of 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 and 6. One shot per half second. If all hits are within the trigger bar, speed up and move on to the next cadence sequence of 1,2,3,4,5,6. One shot per quarter second. If you successfully can put all your hits in to the trigger bar, it is time to move on to cyclic rate which depending on your skill will be somewhere between .14-.25 seconds per shot If at anytime, you fail to keep all your hits in the trigger bar, repeat that cadence and focus on your trigger manipulation and follow through. I often start many of my practice sessions with this target at 7 yards. My goal is to accomplish it in 24 rounds and only one target. It always helps get me dialed in on the fundamentals prior to beginning what I intend to practice that day. Eventually, the goal is for this to become subconcious execution aka unconscious competence. Expect this to take several thousand rounds minimum. I hope this helps you some. ETA: And to reinforce Sean's point above......seek out quality instruction. Performing under the watchful eye of a good instructor will help identify problem areas and correction can be made prior to adopting bad habits. It always takes 4-5 times more repetition to change a bad habit. I am going to have to do that I like the sounds of it. I am taking Sheps upcoming class so that should be good. Always good to get more practice in different situations. |
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I came to suggest the drill 00bullit posted, but he beat me too it!
Here's a drill from Brian Enos: "If your fundamentals are rock-solid (meaning you can shoot - accurately), but you have difficulty "cranking it up," you might experiment with the following. In practice, push yourself to shoot at a quicker pace than you would normally be comfortable. Don't worry about your hits, with good fundamentals, you can always return to basics. Shooters with a tendency towards accuracy often have to force themselves to shoot out of their comfort zone to get the feeling of what "driving the gun" feels like. Once you experience what it feels like to "let go and crank away," you will have the perspective needed to effectively balance speed and accuracy. A great drill for this is the Bill Drill. The original drill tests how fast you can shoot all your shots into the A zone of an IPSC target at seven yards; however, to emphasize speed, make the following adjustment: At seven yards, instead of the goal of shooting all A's, just shoot as fast as possible with the goal of only keeping all your hits on the entire target. (If this sounds crazy, this drill is definitely for you.) Shoot within these parameters until you establish the average time it takes you to just hit the target with all your shots. Then, try it again, this time with the goal of keeping all your hits in the C zone—in the same time you just discovered—do not shoot at a slower pace. This is the opposite of the usual method; however, I assure you this is possible. After mastering this, you should be able to carry what you’ve learned up to this point into shooting all your shots in the A zone in the same time you needed to just hit the target. When you are doing everything JUST RIGHT, on a target at seven yards, you should be able to shoot A's as fast as you can shoot hits. I've had tremendous insights into "speed shooting" while training in this manner. It helps me to visualize a "Control/Abandon" scale. I picture it in my mind as a horizontally sliding knob like you might see on an older stereo, on which one end is Base and the other end is Treble. Substitute two opposite concepts for Base and Treble, i.e., control/abandon, or sights/trigger. Then, before you shoot, imagine where the knob is positioned. Or, if you prefer thinking to imagining, think of two opposite concepts that have a ratio that has a total value of ten. For example, you might shoot a given string with "8 Control/2 Abandon," or "1 Control/9 Abandon." The key is, every time, before you shoot, DECIDE exactly what you are going to do. And then after each string, without attaching to or judging the results—simply notice what actually happened. Eventually, clear intention will dictate your activity." Other Resources Pistol-training.com Brian Enos Forum http://www.amazon.com/Refinement-Repetition-Dry-fire-Dramatic-Improvement/dp/1930847769 I would also like to point out that as sexy as it is to shoot multiple shots quickly, the amount of time you save doing this is infinitesimal compared to the time you lose on acquiring a sight picture, transitions, moving in/out of position, drawing, reloading, etc. I have found that it is a better use of my time to practice target/sight acquisition and transitions, as the possibility exists to save WAY more time here. Plus, you can do it in your basement, so it's free. 
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Quoted: Gent, I didn't get to watch you last night. Did you notice any consistency/speed focus? The only thing I saw was when you disco danced. DEDX had an off night with procedures. Shredder did like........all headshots, one-handed.... Yes I actually did. I worked on using my front sight as a "speedometer" that seemed to help quite a bit. Me? Disco dancing? I saww YOU doing that 
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It's cliche, but slow is smooth and smooth is fast, I don't necessarily agree with that statement. Its more like Slow is Slow and Fast is Fast. Slow isn't always smooth and smooth is not always fast. Efficiency is fast. I always took it as slow is learning, learning is familerality, which is smoothness, which leads to speed |
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That is interesting to see Ron Avery teaming up with Travis. Also interesting to see a variation of the trigger bar target.
I took Andy Stanford's Surgical Speed Shooting class back in 2004. That single class was my epiphany when everything clicked on how to effectively shoot fast while maintaining accuracy. It took me to the next level and was very instrumental in my training early on. He has a book out titled "Surgical Speed Shooting". I recommend picking it up. It was published in 2002 or 2003 and can still be found in print I believe. Andy was a great instructor. He had marital problems and got a divorce as a result of him always being on the road instructing. After his divorce he fell apart, but he still instructs from time to time. I heard he was teaching up at Yeager's School. If you guys want, Erik and I will teach our "Speed Kills" class. It is a speed shooting fundamentals class with real world applicability. It is a building block approach to teach you how to take shooting from 0-60 in a days time. Lots of fast shooting and fun drills to help you improve your efficiency and speed for the real world. It is something I have been wanting to teach for some time now. If there is enough interest, We will schedule an upcoming class. |
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That is interesting to see Ron Avery teaming up with Travis. Also interesting to see a variation of the trigger bar target. I took Andy Stanford's Surgical Speed Shooting class back in 2004. That single class was my epiphany when everything clicked on how to effectively shoot fast while maintaining accuracy. It took me to the next level and was very instrumental in my training early on. He has a book out titled "Surgical Speed Shooting". I recommend picking it up. It was published in 2002 or 2003 and can still be found in print I believe. Andy was a great instructor. He had marital problems and got a divorce as a result of him always being on the road instructing. After his divorce he fell apart, but he still instructs from time to time. I heard he was teaching up at Yeager's School. If you guys want, Erik and I will teach our "Speed Kills" class. It is a speed shooting fundamentals class with real world applicability. It is a building block approach to teach you how to take shooting from 0-60 in a days time. Lots of fast shooting and fun drills to help you improve your efficiency and speed for the real world. It is something I have been wanting to teach for some time now. If there is enough interest, We will schedule an upcoming class. I would absolutely sign up for that class. Please set one up! |
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That is interesting to see Ron Avery teaming up with Travis. Also interesting to see a variation of the trigger bar target. I took Andy Stanford's Surgical Speed Shooting class back in 2004. That single class was my epiphany when everything clicked on how to effectively shoot fast while maintaining accuracy. It took me to the next level and was very instrumental in my training early on. He has a book out titled "Surgical Speed Shooting". I recommend picking it up. It was published in 2002 or 2003 and can still be found in print I believe. Andy was a great instructor. He had marital problems and got a divorce as a result of him always being on the road instructing. After his divorce he fell apart, but he still instructs from time to time. I heard he was teaching up at Yeager's School. If you guys want, Erik and I will teach our "Speed Kills" class. It is a speed shooting fundamentals class with real world applicability. It is a building block approach to teach you how to take shooting from 0-60 in a days time. Lots of fast shooting and fun drills to help you improve your efficiency and speed for the real world. It is something I have been wanting to teach for some time now. If there is enough interest, We will schedule an upcoming class. If I had to sell a kidney or go back to doing some things I'm not proud of down in Rio like back in '08, I would do it to attend this class. |
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That is interesting to see Ron Avery teaming up with Travis. Also interesting to see a variation of the trigger bar target. I took Andy Stanford's Surgical Speed Shooting class back in 2004. That single class was my epiphany when everything clicked on how to effectively shoot fast while maintaining accuracy. It took me to the next level and was very instrumental in my training early on. He has a book out titled "Surgical Speed Shooting". I recommend picking it up. It was published in 2002 or 2003 and can still be found in print I believe. Andy was a great instructor. He had marital problems and got a divorce as a result of him always being on the road instructing. After his divorce he fell apart, but he still instructs from time to time. I heard he was teaching up at Yeager's School. If you guys want, Erik and I will teach our "Speed Kills" class. It is a speed shooting fundamentals class with real world applicability. It is a building block approach to teach you how to take shooting from 0-60 in a days time. Lots of fast shooting and fun drills to help you improve your efficiency and speed for the real world. It is something I have been wanting to teach for some time now. If there is enough interest, We will schedule an upcoming class. Tod - Put it together. I'd be in for sure as well as 2 more guys. Josh |
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If you guys want, Erik and I will teach our "Speed Kills" class. It is a speed shooting fundamentals class with real world applicability. It is a building block approach to teach you how to take shooting from 0-60 in a days time. Lots of fast shooting and fun drills to help you improve your efficiency and speed for the real world. It is something I have been wanting to teach for some time now. If there is enough interest, We will schedule an upcoming class. What's the experience base needed to make the most use of the class? I can do ok punching paper slowly, but pretty much a newbie. I wouldn't want to get in the way. |
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It will be necessary to have a very solid understanding of the fundamentals as well as a very safe demeanor.
It is preferred that you have completed some sort of basic beginning level pistol class. Erik and I will work up some dates and post when it nears time. Looking like August will be the earliest as July may be just too damn hot. |