Posted: 4/10/2011 8:07:45 PM EDT
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So, as the thread title says, I am looking to get into the long range shooting game. After considering my options, weighing all the advantages and disadvantages of everything that's out there and then carefully comparing them with each other...
I basically said the hell with it and went with what I just want, regardless of any of that.  I have settled on a DPMS .308 AR, 24" bbl. While I realize it may not be the ideal long range "precision rifle," (thinking of all the very nice looking bolt gun setups I have seen in my research) I do think it will serve my purpose just fine. I wanted to throw the platform out there to lead into my real question: optics. I have a Leupold VX III on my deer rifle, which I like very much, but it just has a standard duplex reticle on it and no turrets for adjusting.
I have done some research here, too, but honestly I'm still not really feeling that much better off in spite of it. As much as I'd like to just Nightforce and be done with it, I really don't have that kind of dough to spend. At the same time, I know optics (and their mounts) are no place to go cheap. Bottom line, I'm looking for something variable power, preferably up to 20x or a bit more, and something suitable for respectable long range work even once I've learned how to actually use the scope. I'd like something I can take classes with, too. As far as my budget, for now why don't we say about $850 +/-; I think this should allow for something decent, but then again, I admit knowing very little about this. If I can provide better information about my thoughts on this to help with any recommendation, I will definitely do so. Thanks in advance for any help. |
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If you are looking in the $850 range I would suggest the Vortex PST line. While I have no experience with these scope except looking through them, they seem to be a decent scope. I have looked at different reviews of this scope and all of them so far have been good. I know there are a few htfers who have them and like them. I am sure someone will be along shortly to help you some more.
Here is a link to the manufactures website and a vendor. http://www.vortexoptics.com/category/products http://swfa.com:80/Vortex-Viper-PST-Rifle-Scopes-C2860.aspx Cannot hot link from my phone. |
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Might be able to get a used Leupold Mk4 for that price range, but probably only a 10x.
For what it's worth, I'm OK with 10x out to 700yds. If you're wanting to go further than that, I'd save up for the NF NXS 5.5-22x50 as a minimum. You're right - glass is no place to cheap out in the long range game. Classes will help; I'd recommend cmshoot's class on basic precision shooting - it's a hell of a deal for what he charges and you'll come away knowing everything you need to maximize the scope. |
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You can do well with a Nikon Monarch 6.5-20 and a 20-30 MOA base.
The only trick is ranging. I'd recommend not getting caught up with the mil-dot craze. A MOA reticle is easier for many to learn/understand as you are dealing in inches which is much more intuitive for me at least. MOA ranging reticles are only available from Vortex, Night Force, and a handful of top end scopes. |
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I'd recommend some sort of bolt gun to start with and spend the extra cash on glass. You can't hit what you can't see. Also, you are going to have an easier time learning on a bolt gun instead of a gas gun. The intrinsic accuracy of an entry level bolt gun is far better than an entry level gas gun. Good gas guns get expensive..
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I agree that either a Leupold or Nikon would probably do most of what you want. To me the Nikon often has slightly clearer glass than comparable Leupolds. But both are very good.
Honestly, you fail to really give us any meaningful information regarding what you want to do with the scope. Telling us you want it for "long range work" and classes doesn't really give any details. Help us help you by giving us a little more info.  Here are some questions to help steer you.
Define your accuracy & precision expectations & needs. If this more for hunting and shooting steel plates or are you trying to shoot tiny groups at distance? Do you need ranging capabilities? Do you have a preference for reticle type? Do you have a preference for turret (MOA or mil-dot)? Do you want side focus, adjustable objective or do you care? Define "long range". To some people 300 yards is long range. To others the fun doesn't start until you are at 700. Buy once, cry once. But don't overbuy. Some scopes might have features you don't really need. The general rule with scopes (if you are serious about your shooting) is that you should buy the best quality glass you can afford the first time. If you need to postpone the purchase while you save for the best tool, then that is what you should do. I've seen a lot of guys put a lower end scope on an otherwise good performing rifle and then they chase fliers thinking they aren't performing well or the rifle isn't that accurate when the problem is really their scope doesn't track right, clarity is bad so you can't really see your target as well as you could with a clearer scope, etc. If the equipment is the best it can be and you aren't getting hits, you know the problem is not the equipment. 
Mark |
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Bookhound has a good point. Starting with gear that is known to be good can almost eliminate gear related issues and show you what you are doing wrong.
As far as scopes go, I tend to think 20x is to much magnification because I have used my 10x out to 700yds without issue. The scope is a leupold mk4 3.5-10x and at 10x seeing a 4" red dot on a white piece of steel is easy, and on my .308 spotting your own hits is easy as well. The biggest negative to the 20x I can think of is that most of your "cheaper" scopes are going to be second focal plane meaning the reticule is correctly calibrated at 1 magnification setting which is most likely the top end. IMO, 20x would be a lot of mag when trying to range and use holdovers on targets inside of 300yds. I would take a look in the EE for a used leupold mk4 in the 3.5-10x range without illumination, and you will see prices under $1k. As mentioned above, take a look at vortex as they seem to be offering nice scopes for a good value. Another type to check out is the super sniper from swfa, they are a great value and offer features found on much higher end optics. I am starting to think I am a little crazy myself as I am thinking of selling a 3.5-15x NF to fund a 3-17x uso to run on my gas .308 later this summer. The fact that the NF only ranges and reads correctly at 15x bugs me as I rarely ever like using the 15x. |
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A lot of very good points have been made here. The biggest thing that we need to know before offering suggestions is the intended application. Once we know that, it's easier to provide you with accurate data or opinions to go off of.
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I am starting to think I am a little crazy myself as I am thinking of selling a 3.5-15x NF to fund a 3-17x uso to run on my gas .308 later this summer. The fact that the NF only ranges and reads correctly at 15x bugs me as I rarely ever like using the 15x. So buy the First Focal Plane version of the same scope....... |
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A lot of very good points have been made here. The biggest thing that we need to know before offering suggestions is the intended application. Once we know that, it's easier to provide you with accurate data or opinions to go off of. Quoted:
I am starting to think I am a little crazy myself as I am thinking of selling a 3.5-15x NF to fund a 3-17x uso to run on my gas .308 later this summer. The fact that the NF only ranges and reads correctly at 15x bugs me as I rarely ever like using the 15x. So buy the First Focal Plane version of the same scope....... +1 I think you'll have a better time with the NF F1 over the USO....but thats just my opinion. |
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Thanks for all the great input, guys.
Book, you are right - "long range work" is pretty damn vague. I have provided answers to the questions you prompted, see below: Define your accuracy & precision expectations & needs. If this more for hunting and shooting steel plates or are you trying to shoot tiny groups at distance? This is more for hunting and plates. That said, good grouping and accuracy is obviously important, especially for hunting, to ensure an ethical shot capability, so long as I do my part. But that is kinda implied I guess. Do you need ranging capabilities? Hmm... I would think so? This is the part where my inexperience really shines through. Perhaps answers elsewhere might help with this one. Do you have a preference for reticle type? Beyond what is appropriate and expected given my other preferences, no. Do you have a preference for turret (MOA or mil-dot)? As has been mentioned before, I have read in several places that MOA is easier to learn and master, and will likely serve my purpose just fine. Ultimately, though, I'm going to have to learn either way. Do you want side focus, adjustable objective or do you care? As of now, I don't really have a preference. Define "long range". To some people 300 yards is long range. To others the fun doesn't start until you are at 700. I definitely fall into the latter category. I don't have much experience in that arena, but to me 300 really isn't "long range." The more questions I ask and try to answer, the more I realize that there's even more I don't know... if that makes sense. The phrase "blind man picking his favorite porn magazine" comes to mind here. On that note, if I am expecting unrealistic results out of the rifle I mentioned, then I'd like to be told (or at least dropped a hint) that I need to alter my expectations. I do realize that the DPMS is not going to be the kind of consistent group performer out to 700, 800, 900 yards that your worked over bolt guns are, but I have gathered that it would likely, with the right ammunition and hand at the helm, allow me to consistently hit my targets. Thanks again. |
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My rifle has wore 3 different scopes till I finally said the hell with it and dropped the coin on good glass (Thanks Mark) I would try and get out to some long range matches they have at Creekside and Gunsite Hills and see if some folks will let you take a look threw there's and go over the features with you.
For me I needed something that when i needed to change from 200-600 yd dope I could look at the knob and turn it to a # and bang I was there. You dont want to play wheel of fortune...I'm a expert at it , but its not that fun in a match 
My PSS wears a Leupold MK4 FFP that Premier put there reticule in back in the day. The FFP is nice, but I have yet to really use the feature. I like the side focus when I shoot F Class with the rifle and can sit there and fine tune things. When you turn the knobs you can really "fill" the clicks. At the chance of some of my dear friends on here beating my head in, I don't like the fill of the knobs on the Nightforce I've played with. Thats just a example of lay your hands on as many as you can....everybody's take on them is a little different |
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The benchrest shooter is trying to make tiny little groups. On a typical benchrest scope you will often find these features:
>really high magnification >thinner reticles that are not setup for range estimation >finer adjustments on the turrets >parallax adjustment on the objective instead of side focus The benefits are... The higher magnification allows the shooter to see the tiny little aim point. The thinner reticle doesn't obscure as much of the target. There isn't really a need for range estimation because most targets are known distance. The finer adjustments allow for more precision. Parallax adjustment on the objective is more precise than side focus. The tactical shooter is trying to hit a kill zone. While precision accuracy is always important, the typical scope a "tactical" shooter might use is likely VERY different. Lets stick that awesome benchrest scope on the tactical guy's rifle. What are benefits to the benchrest guy quickly become liabilities to the tactical shooter. For example... The higher magnification limits field of view to the point where quickly engaging targets at high magnification becomes difficult. It is almost impossible if the shooter and/or targets and mobile. Plus, higher magnification amplifies mirage and every slight body movement (even pulse!) imparted on the rifle. The thinner reticle is easily lost. The shooter likely needs to quickly estimate range to various targets. If he needs to use a range finder, it is time consuming and cumbersome. If he is a sniper he is also moving a lot which is bad. More coarse adjustments allow for faster adjustments. This time savings can be the difference in making the shot or not. Side focus is much faster and the shooter isn't having to move around a lot or get out of position to adjust. Yeah, give that tactical guy something he can adjust quickly and estimate target range. The tactical guy still wants a tiny group, but the other issues are more important and drive the important features the scope should posses. The hunter I see (since I am one) has a lot more in common with the tactical guy than he does the benchrest guy. Does this make sense? You are VERY right about a lot most people don't know. You are NOT the only one! But you are going about it the right way. So far, every post in this thread has been someone with knowledge trying to help you. Well, there is one post that belongs more in GD but that is arfcom I suppose where post quantity beats quality. 
I have a Nightforce 3.5-15 FFP with a mil-dot reticle. I have used other mil-dot scopes and own a couple others, but of them this one is my favorite of those. 
I also own a Nightforce 5.5x22 with a NPR1 reticle. This is an MOA-based reticle. 
I got the 3.5x15 for a specific task - I wanted something best suited to tactical type matches. Most matches have targets at unknown distances. So, I needed a reticle that was good for ranging. I got the FFP (First Focal Plane) reticle so I could range estimate at any magnification, not just the highest or one particular setting. The engagements in these matches are usually pretty fast. You need something clear that tracks properly to make a good hit, but you are better off trading maybe a little target acquisition precision for a faster reticle. Make sense? This scope was perfect for what I wanted and I still love it. But then I got around all these crazy accurate rifles and I wanted more. I wanted something to go shoot tiny groups at long ranges (which I'll define as out to 700 because that is the furthest ranges to which I have easy access). The more I played with other scopes the more I realized I actually needed a different tool than my perfect "tactical" match scope. I wasn't ready for a benchrest rig though. I still wanted something that could be used in that tactical role yet still be a little more precise than that FFP mil-dot. I played with a lot of scopes before settling on the 5.5x22 NPR1. The reticle is MOA based. It is easier for us Americans to think in terms of inches. So, MOA is usually easier to learn. Also, a 1/4" is a finer adjustment than a 1/10th of a mil. Nightforce was just coming out with the high-speed turrets so I snapped one up and LOVE it! The reticle is finer than the FFP mil-dot but not so fine I lose it on a target. One "can be" downside of a FFP scope is that the reticle gets small on the lower magnification settings. On the lower settings it might be hard to use the reticle. Try one and you'll see what I mean. So, that is some ramblings for ya on what I primarily use and why. I hope it helps you in some way or at least inspires some new questions and/or debate.
Mark |
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Fro, I regret selling only a few gun related things over the years. I have no regrets selling that Leupold to you ONLY because it went to you. If I had sold it to anyone other than a friend it would bug me. I am glad you enjoy it and get good use from it. It is a fine piece of glass that you should be proud to own. If you ever want to sell it, I want first dibs!
Mark |
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Fro, I regret selling only a few gun related things over the years. I have no regrets selling that Leupold to you ONLY because it went to you. If I had sold it to anyone other than a friend it would bug me. I am glad you enjoy it and get good use from it. It is a fine piece of glass that you should be proud to own. If you ever want to sell it, I want first dibs!
Mark LOL I enjoy every min of it. Come a long way from the Tasco The wife was ready to beat you and me both to death when I told her "Hey i will see you latter I'm going to Marks to get a scope" ...and then ran out the door with her screaming "MARK!?! SCOPE!>!>  " and something about living in your basement I dont know
Bill should hook me up with some NF goody's. After guys started playing with that Leupy when i got it mounted went out and bought new scopes....lots of them being Night Force
O yea BTW I'm wanting another rifle there crack dealer
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Fro, I regret selling only a few gun related things over the years. I have no regrets selling that Leupold to you ONLY because it went to you. If I had sold it to anyone other than a friend it would bug me. I am glad you enjoy it and get good use from it. It is a fine piece of glass that you should be proud to own. If you ever want to sell it, I want first dibs!
Mark LOL I enjoy every min of it. Come a long way from the Tasco The wife was ready to beat you and me both to death when I told her "Hey i will see you latter I'm going to Marks to get a scope" ...and then ran out the door with her screaming "MARK!?! SCOPE!>!> " and something about living in your basement I dont know
Bill should hook me up with some NF goody's. After guys started playing with that Leupy when i got it mounted went out and bought new scopes....lots of them being Night Force
O yea BTW I'm wanting another rifle there crack dealer yep he is getting good use out of it....took it out of the safe for the first time in how long???? and what place did you get???? was it last???? :) ignore me, I just have scope envy..... Anyone want to trade a kid for a night force? |
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Fro, I regret selling only a few gun related things over the years. I have no regrets selling that Leupold to you ONLY because it went to you. If I had sold it to anyone other than a friend it would bug me. I am glad you enjoy it and get good use from it. It is a fine piece of glass that you should be proud to own. If you ever want to sell it, I want first dibs!
Mark LOL I enjoy every min of it. Come a long way from the Tasco The wife was ready to beat you and me both to death when I told her "Hey i will see you latter I'm going to Marks to get a scope" ...and then ran out the door with her screaming "MARK!?! SCOPE!>!> " and something about living in your basement I dont know
Bill should hook me up with some NF goody's. After guys started playing with that Leupy when i got it mounted went out and bought new scopes....lots of them being Night Force
O yea BTW I'm wanting another rifle there crack dealer yep he is getting good use out of it....took it out of the safe for the first time in how long???? and what place did you get???? was it last???? :) ignore me, I just have scope envy..... Anyone want to trade a kid for a night force? Want to come shoot irons at 200 with me again?
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Fro, I regret selling only a few gun related things over the years. I have no regrets selling that Leupold to you ONLY because it went to you. If I had sold it to anyone other than a friend it would bug me. I am glad you enjoy it and get good use from it. It is a fine piece of glass that you should be proud to own. If you ever want to sell it, I want first dibs!
Mark LOL I enjoy every min of it. Come a long way from the Tasco The wife was ready to beat you and me both to death when I told her "Hey i will see you latter I'm going to Marks to get a scope" ...and then ran out the door with her screaming "MARK!?! SCOPE!>!> " and something about living in your basement I dont know
Bill should hook me up with some NF goody's. After guys started playing with that Leupy when i got it mounted went out and bought new scopes....lots of them being Night Force
O yea BTW I'm wanting another rifle there crack dealer yep he is getting good use out of it....took it out of the safe for the first time in how long???? and what place did you get???? was it last???? :) ignore me, I just have scope envy..... Anyone want to trade a kid for a night force? Want to come shoot irons at 200 with me again? why yes! yes I do! this time I won't use a gun I built with a sledge hammer, file, and arc welder in my GARAGE! ....oh yea didn't I beat you with that $89 rifle????? |
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Fro, I regret selling only a few gun related things over the years. I have no regrets selling that Leupold to you ONLY because it went to you. If I had sold it to anyone other than a friend it would bug me. I am glad you enjoy it and get good use from it. It is a fine piece of glass that you should be proud to own. If you ever want to sell it, I want first dibs!
Mark LOL I enjoy every min of it. Come a long way from the Tasco The wife was ready to beat you and me both to death when I told her "Hey i will see you latter I'm going to Marks to get a scope" ...and then ran out the door with her screaming "MARK!?! SCOPE!>!> " and something about living in your basement I dont know
Bill should hook me up with some NF goody's. After guys started playing with that Leupy when i got it mounted went out and bought new scopes....lots of them being Night Force
O yea BTW I'm wanting another rifle there crack dealer yep he is getting good use out of it....took it out of the safe for the first time in how long???? and what place did you get???? was it last???? :) ignore me, I just have scope envy..... Anyone want to trade a kid for a night force? Want to come shoot irons at 200 with me again? ....oh yea didn't I beat you with that $89 rifle????? At Service Rifle match???? Ummm no 
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| If you're looking for something a little different, Horus Vision's holdover based reticle worked great for me. No dialing needed once you have your dope nailed down. I had the Hawk, but the Raptor and Predator are also in your price range. Some folks have had bad experiences with Horus, but I had no real problems with them or their product. |