Posted: 10/30/2009 2:05:05 PM EDT
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Guys (and Gals),
My PD is about to roll out a department-wide rifle program next week; all sworn officers will be getting S&M M&P15 MOE rifles. My personal AR has an ancient Aimpoint (M2 model, I think?) on it, but I'm looking for suggestions for this new work rifle, as we are being given room to customize with whatever sight system we like, provided it's a top-tier (read: NON-AIRSOFT) manufacturer. Most engagements in my jurisdiction would top out at around 150 yards, as it is fairly urban and most times we should be able to maneuver in that close; however, there are a few areas where 200-300 yards is not outside the realm of possibility. I have never personally held or used any of these new-fangled magnification systems being offered by Aimpoint or EOTech... do any of you have thoughts on these systems? I really need something with removable or variable magnification, as a large portion of what I do with this rifle will be inside 100 yards, hence these two systems were the first that came to mind. That being said, I am open to any good suggestions for a CQB and mid-range sighting system. Educate me! -Chris |
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I really have a liking for the Leupold Mark 4 CQT 1-3x varaible scope. True 1x-3x variable with illumination(not daytime). Circle dot type reticle. Comes with a mount. Does not need batteries for reticle to be visible. Has laser etched reticle but it does illuminate amber for low light. comes with mount but not QD. very robust and durable. has huge FOV on 1x.
I think it makes for an awesome patrol rifle optic. |
Aimpoint 3X Magnifier 11324 With LaRue Tactical QD Mount LT602 Problem solved and use what your already trained to use! Even I can hit a man sized target at 300 with this combo and I'm bout blind! |
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Quoted:
I really have a liking for the Leupold Mark 4 CQT 1-3x varaible scope. True 1x-3x variable with illumination(not daytime). Circle dot type reticle. Comes with a mount. Does not need batteries for reticle to be visible. Has laser etched reticle but it does illuminate amber for low light. comes with mount but not QD. very robust and durable. has huge FOV on 1x. I think it makes for an awesome patrol rifle optic. Bullitt, I looked at a couple of the Leupold offerings online... my concern with them is eye relief; they seem to have a somewhat more traditional-scope-style limited eye relief. What has been your expeerience? |
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Eye relief tends to run about 3-4" on 1x and about 2.5" on 3x. Its got a huge FOV on 1x and it lends itself well to keeping both eyes wide open for CQB distance engagements.
I'm not fond of the Aimpoint/Magnifier combo. Its alot to snag and somewhat cumbersome. It weights a good bit more than the CQT. Once you add mounts and such. The CQT weighs in at 17 ounces. Hell an M2 with LaRue mount is 14oz. And then add the magnifier and mount and you add another 12 ounces. the CQT just streamlines the process and gives up nothing in my opinion. I love the Aimpoints....don't get me wrong. I just don't like it with the magnifier. |
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Agreed on the weight. That's why I switched from a Comp M4s to the T-1.
Comp M4s + 3x magnifier (both in larue mounts) = 16.45 oz T-1 + 3x magnifier (both in larue mounts) = 8.65 oz And with the combo and QD mounts you can always take the magnifier off. Then you're running 4 oz and tiny. |
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You're kind of off on your weights. While they may seem as light as you believe they are a little heavier.
The M4S in Aimpoint QD mount is 14.1 ounces alone without the magnifier. 
The H1 in an ADM type mount with the high spacer is 8.2ounces 
I no longer have my magnifier but it was 12.5 ounces in the Larue pivot mount. The CQT is 17.4 ounces with the non QD mount included from Leupold. I weigh everything as I am real concerned with weight. As you can see I own both and love them both for what they are. But my choice for a magnified patrol rifle optic goes to the CQT. |
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You're right bullitt, I was off. But I just weighed them and came up with:
Comp M4s in Larue mount = 12.875 ounces T-1 in Larue mount = 5.75 ounces 3x mag in Larue pivot mount = 10.625 ounces So the T-1+3x combo is still 16.375 according to my weights. I'm guessing the diff is Larue vs. ADM mounts. |
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I think that you'll find the Aimpoint to be the more popular unit. No doubt its a rock solid piece of kit. I also doubt many here who promote the Aimpoint have ever even tried the CQT. I used to turn my nose up at it until I tried one. Now I believe it to be one of the best when engagement beyond 50 yards may be necessary. I've been running one for the past 3 years. I would not hesitiate one second to take a hostage shot at 100 yards or even 200 yards with the CQT. Magnified aimpont would work but to me.....you have to deal with extra clutter and moving mounts to get it into position. The CQT is a streamlined variable semi compact piece.
As for the weights. I was expecting you to say the difference was the mounts. But they are not that great. The Aimpoint QD is a quarter ounce lighter than my LaRue and the ADM is a half ounce heavier than the Larue with the same height spacers. But they are zeroed and on rifles at the moment and I prefer not take them off to prove such. But whatever...close enough. Could be our scales. I've spoke my peace about the CQT. Good luck with your choice. i think its real kick ass that your department is making the investment. |
| I wrote our patrol rifle policy and have taught a couple of patrol rifle classes and also qualify our officers on theirs. My position is that for a patrol rifle, any magnifier is a hindrance not a help. Most of the guys in class that have magnifiers or magnified optics are much slower and shoot no better than either open sights or non magnified optics. Also, I would not put anything on a patrol rifle that I had to turn on prior to it being ready to use (eotech or one of the older aimpoints). One of the new aimpoints that have the ability to be turned on all the time is the way to go or just use good old irons. It seems much more important to have a light on the rifle than an optic. Most of the guys have a surefire handgun light on a rail or the daniel defense offset mount with a 1" light in it. Also a top notch sling is mandatory. I like the viking tactical padded myself, but a lot of people prefer the single points. Those things should be done first if you are on a limited budget before an optic in my opinion. On my rifle I have a surefire rail with the DD light mount with a pelican M6, a vtac sling and an aimpoint m4. If I had to delete one it would be the M4 first. Again, for shooting at a moving target or even a part of exposed body at 150 yards, you really don't magnification. I regularly shoot at 200 yards with mine and as long as you are familiar with the point of impact at various distances (which applies regardless of the type of sights) you are fine. Also I would highly suggest to zero with whatever sight you choose at 50 yards instead of 25 like the military does. Good luck and congrats on the new rifles. |
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Quoted: Stag, I must admit... I find that combo VERY sexy. And I love that hinged mount for the magnifier! I use the same rig, it's not heavy at all. I prefer it's sight picture over the t-1, mines 2 MOA. I carried the rig all day at the Macon Sheriffs dept range recently, always with 120 rounds on me. Piece of cake. Shoot and scoot for 6 hours, and I'm a big guy and over 50. I use a Vickers 2 point sling.  |
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I carry an Aimpoint T1 in the GG & G mount on my Sabre SBR. Its a great little sight. Matter of fact had rifle quals today and shot a 290/300 with no problem at all. Its easy to acquire your targets with both eyes open and transition with it is a dream.
I also like the Eotech, but we have had numerous issues which resulted in the sights being sent back to Eotech for repair. Its also a very "busy" reticle and can be hard to pickup the center dot. But, I know a lot of guys like them, so research all available and make the best decision for your specific needs. Remember it has the potential to save your life so don't skimp on quality. |
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If most of the work you are doing will be inside of 100 yards I would skip the magnifier. It is a less than elegant solution and one more thing to get dorked up under pressure and add weight to the weapon. The Aimpoint you have is actually decent. I have an EOTech 555, which I like very much for short range work. For more precision or pushing the distance out there a bit I have an Elcan Specter DR 1x4X. It pretty much is the optic that does everything, if you are not familiar with it. The only downside is cost and availability. If you want to try either before taking the plunge just shoot me an email and we can work something out..
Regards, -M |
| We've has some issues with the eotech as well. One of them would turn off by its self while shooting even with new batteries. I personally don't like the reticule, although others prefer it. I saw where recently they are coming out with a new generation of products. |
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Red96,
If you're looking or a variable optic for patrol rifle, then I'd have to echo 00Bullets recommendation. The Leupold CQT is a great scope for the money. I used one in competition for several years and I had no problem hitting 10" MGM Flash at 350 yards. The scope is perfectly suitable for patrol rifle work. I wouldn't worry about the eye relief, as long as you have a collasable stock, you'll be able to adjust to the eye relief. USSA-1 |
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Quoted:
Why change when he is already trained on an Aimpoint? The mans life is at stake. A millisecond counts. If it's not broke why fix it?  Why make him rethink his sight picture? It makes no sense to me.He is asking for alternatives that might be able to better serve his purposes. For shots to the distances he is proposing, a variable power optic with a true 1x setting is ideal. One can make all of the shots with the 1x but also have the magnification on hand for extending ones capabilities. You can't hit what you can't see, especially with the possibility of innocents/friendlies around. In the scheme of things the optic or sights is not that big of a deal regarding overall performance. If basic fundamentals of shooting are mastered, there shouldn't be a problem switching optics with a little familiarization and especially further training. Remember, amateurs practice until they can get it right, professionals practice until they can't get it wrong. I'm not trying to bash the Aimpoint selection as I believe it to be the best red dot system available. For his purposes though, my opinion and that of others with more experience/actual use are recommending the variable powered optic. As an alternative to the Leupold, check out the Burris XTR 1-4s. You also can't go wrong with the Aimpoints, but the magnifiers just add way too much clutter and weight to the gun. While I am a big fan of iron sights and frequently choose to shoot with them, for a gun going into harms way an optic greatly increases your ability to make rapid, effective hits on target in all environments, weather and lighting conditions. To the OP, whatever you choose let us know how it works and for your fellow officers. Stay safe. |
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Quoted:
We've has some issues with the eotech as well. One of them would turn off by its self while shooting even with new batteries. I personally don't like the reticule, although others prefer it. I saw where recently they are coming out with a new generation of products. These "issues" with the EOTechs are what lead me to shy away from them when I got the original Aimpoint on my personal rifle; however, our SWAT guys use them on their Bushy M4's, and they all seem to love them. As for the light and sling mentioned in your earlier post, I've alreayd go those covered. I will be using a Streamlight weaponlight and a single point sling just like what I use on my personal setup. Guys, I want to thank all of you that have posted so far or will post in this thread... I value the opinion of my fellow HTF'ers, and wanted to hear from local guys I know and have a good deal more trust in. I am going to hit up a shop or two and check out a few of the sighting systems mentioned in this thread to get an idea of what is what. Feel free to continue posting ideas in here, as I will check it regularly and let everyone know when a decision has been made! -Chris |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Why change when he is already trained on an Aimpoint? The mans life is at stake. A millisecond counts. If it's not broke why fix it? Why make him rethink his sight picture? It makes no sense to me.He is asking for alternatives that might be able to better serve his purposes. For shots to the distances he is proposing, a variable power optic with a true 1x setting is ideal. One can make all of the shots with the 1x but also have the magnification on hand for extending ones capabilities. You can't hit what you can't see, especially with the possibility of innocents/friendlies around. In the scheme of things the optic or sights is not that big of a deal regarding overall performance. If basic fundamentals of shooting are mastered, there shouldn't be a problem switching optics with a little familiarization and especially further training. Remember, amateurs practice until they can get it right, professionals practice until they can't get it wrong. I'm not trying to bash the Aimpoint selection as I believe it to be the best red dot system available. For his purposes though, my opinion and that of others with more experience/actual use are recommending the variable powered optic. As an alternative to the Leupold, check out the Burris XTR 1-4s. You also can't go wrong with the Aimpoints, but the magnifiers just add way too much clutter and weight to the gun. While I am a big fan of iron sights and frequently choose to shoot with them, for a gun going into harms way an optic greatly increases your ability to make rapid, effective hits on target in all environments, weather and lighting conditions. To the OP, whatever you choose let us know how it works and for your fellow officers. Stay safe. Great quote and oh so true. |