Posted: 6/19/2009 3:40:26 PM EDT
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James Yeager makes a video to substantiate their assinine training video that got out for all the world to see
Link To James Yeager's response video |
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Quoted:
Obviously damage control. I guess he doesn't want to get slandered like the Edinburgh Risk incident on Route Irish a few years ago. Doh! I wasn't even gonna bring that up. 
Edit to add as I was hitting send on this post I had just gotten to the part in the video where he says, "You see, many people think that they will rise to the occasion and that just isn't true." How ironic. II immediately thought of Edinburgh. |
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I'm not a TR student or employee, but I have attended classes with a 360 range and where students were downrange during drills filling in as innocent bystanders.
He is correct that you are the most careful, safety-observant student when there are live people downrange from you. You have to become comfortable with not covering people in a crowd with your weapon and still be able to employ it accurately. Until you train that way you're missing a part of responsible gun handling. |
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Quoted:
I'm not a TR student or employee, but I have attended classes with a 360 range and where students were downrange during drills filling in as innocent bystanders. He is correct that you are the most careful, safety-observant student when there are live people downrange from you. You have to become comfortable with not covering people in a crowd with your weapon and still be able to employ it accurately. Until you train that way you're missing a part of responsible gun handling. Manequins would be real enough if dressed like people. This is not Navy SEal training where live fire with fellow soldier in the same room shooting inches from your head. The average citizen will never train as hard or shoot near as well as a special forces member. So doing live fire exercises with students downrange is still a stupid idea. If you need realism, join the military or SWAT. But for the average civilian being trained on the range, live fire exercises with students downrange is asking for trouble. |
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Quoted:Manequins would be real enough if dressed like people. This is not Navy SEal training where live fire with fellow soldier in the same room shooting inches from your head. The average citizen will never train as hard or shoot near as well as a special forces member.
So doing live fire exercises with students downrange is still a stupid idea. If you need realism, join the military or SWAT. But for the average civilian being trained on the range, live fire exercises with students downrange is asking for trouble. So average civilans can't be trusted to train at the same level as police or soldiers (who were, at one time, average civilians, our sons, daughters and cousins), yet the average civilians shouldn't be able to use guns to protect themselves during real life emergency situations? It reeks of the same argument, "You want to shoot machine guns? Go join the Army" |
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So average civilans can't be trusted to train at the same level as police or soldiers (who were, at one time, average civilians, our sons, daughters and cousins), yet the average civilians shouldn't be able to use guns to protect themselves during real life emergency situations? It reeks of the same argument, "You want to shoot machine guns? Go join the Army" Are you kidding? Do you seriously not know the difference? Tier 1 SF types train more in one year than most people do in a lifetime. I'm a civy and don't have a clue, but from the few acquaintances I have that are former SF types, even I know that. Hell probably more in just a few months than most people do in a lifetime. When Uncle Sam is paying for your ammo and training, and when you go through sometimes a few hundred thousand rounds in a year, guns become an extension of your body. Guys like that can truly train at the limit and do so safely. That's their job and they represent the best of the best....well.... in the world. Do you seriously think a handful of average joe's that maybe have fired 1000rds in their lifetime can actually train SAFELY anywhere near those limits? Sorry but, for a regular, likely inexperienced, civy in a regular training class, the risk of being only a few inches away from killing someone IN TRAINING is just not worth it. For the SF types, that is their job, and it is their job to be the best of the best plus they can afford to train to perfection. There are plenty of ways in training to simulate people being in close proximity with mannequins, 3d training dummies, etc that are a far better option. This argument equates to saying that just because there is a 1 in eleventy gazillion chance that one of your loved ones might get taken hostage in a home invasion forcing you to take a headshot on the hostage taker.............that you need to train with a real person standing in front of a target so it can be more "real". 
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Well, that does it. From now on I'm only going to shoot when others are down range. This is the only way to become a true warrior. 
A true warrior would place his wife and children downrange to hold the targets.
I'd like to see Mr. RunAndHiideInTheDitch pull that one off. 
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Whats the back story to this Video Response? Links to the first video which prompted it I mean. Anyone got em? here you go: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/06/17/highly-controversial-training-video/ My problem with the "it's realistic training" argument is this: nothing else that they are doing in that video is realistic. The target is like 3yds away so instead of moving they yell something(?) take the time to get down to a knee and fire slowly at the target. The target doesn't even remotely resemble a person so by their own logic they won't be able to shoot an attacker that isn't a piece of brown cardboard but, a real person must be downrange to simulate an innocent bystander. 
That little stunt had nothing to do with training and everything to do with publicity. |
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Whats the back story to this Video Response? Links to the first video which prompted it I mean. Anyone got em? here you go: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/06/17/highly-controversial-training-video/ My problem with the "it's realistic training" argument is this: nothing else that they are doing in that video is realistic. The target is like 3yds away so instead of moving they yell something(?) take the time to get down to a knee and fire slowly at the target. The target doesn't even remotely resemble a person so by their own logic they won't be able to shoot an attacker that isn't a piece of brown cardboard but, a real person must be downrange to simulate an innocent bystander.
That little stunt had nothing to do with training and everything to do with publicity. Huh... Im curious why the one guy to the left of the photographer choose to stand up and look around after he did a cursory look and asses while kneeling. BUt thats just me. My personal opinion is even he felt uncomfortable with the situation. |
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Bookhound...
And you BUSTED on ME for bringing up the Edinburgh Risk incident! I was just going to let those who didn't know find out on their own what his actions were. However since you started  , let's not forget that the car he was driving was placed in neutral and the emergency brake set... that's why he couldn't "Get of the X" when the Shite hit the fan. That is per his own AAR of the incident.
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So average civilans can't be trusted to train at the same level as police or soldiers (who were, at one time, average civilians, our sons, daughters and cousins), yet the average civilians shouldn't be able to use guns to protect themselves during real life emergency situations? It reeks of the same argument, "You want to shoot machine guns? Go join the Army" Are you kidding? Do you seriously not know the difference? Tier 1 SF types train more in one year than most people do in a lifetime. I'm a civy and don't have a clue, but from the few acquaintances I have that are former SF types, even I know that. Hell probably more in just a few months than most people do in a lifetime. When Uncle Sam is paying for your ammo and training, and when you go through sometimes a few hundred thousand rounds in a year, guns become an extension of your body. Guys like that can truly train at the limit and do so safely. That's their job and they represent the best of the best....well.... in the world. Do you seriously think a handful of average joe's that maybe have fired 1000rds in their lifetime can actually train SAFELY anywhere near those limits? Sorry but, for a regular, likely inexperienced, civy in a regular training class, the risk of being only a few inches away from killing someone IN TRAINING is just not worth it. For the SF types, that is their job, and it is their job to be the best of the best plus they can afford to train to perfection. There are plenty of ways in training to simulate people being in close proximity with mannequins, 3d training dummies, etc that are a far better option. This argument equates to saying that just because there is a 1 in eleventy gazillion chance that one of your loved ones might get taken hostage in a home invasion forcing you to take a headshot on the hostage taker.............that you need to train with a real person standing in front of a target so it can be more "real".
Even with all of that training, you know what one of the SEAL mantras is? "Sucks to be a hostage." |
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Here we go. I'm taking this guy to the range with me. http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp44/humby45/worst-job-in-world-07.jpg That's one hell of a backstop. I'm not even watching the video- I've already given enough idiots an audience today. My team and I do live fire training all of the time- room entry, urban scenarios of all types, etc. It's very different, though. I know the guys next to me better than I know myself, and we have an understanding that we could die in training, just as we could downrange. I guess what I'm saying is, in my line of work, it's part of life. That's why SGLI is free and we kiss our wives goodbye before training just as if we were going downrange. Going to some class where you don't know the guy next to you from Adam and taking your chances is just foolish, and the dumbass that runs these classes is just as foolish. Unit Representative: "Ms. Xxxxxxx, I regret to inform you that SSG Xxxxxxx was killed this morning during a training exercise preparing for his deployment to ____________. Everything will be taken care of for you in your time of grieving. Is there anything that I can do for you?" Tactical Solutions: "Ms. Xxxxxxx, I'm sorry, but Moose was killed this morning during training for......uh, well, I don't really know, but we've got some great pictures of him holding his pistol like Charlie's Angels! I hope it all works out for you. He signed a release so, good luck." |
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Here we go. I'm taking this guy to the range with me. http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp44/humby45/worst-job-in-world-07.jpg Line to pits. Mark target I2. Scored as a 10 and no spotter. |
