Posted: 3/2/2006 9:12:00 AM EDT
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First of all, this is strictly hypothetical! Kinda a "what if" deal. Say a non ffl holder, bought say, a very high end rifle from a dealer in Colorado. Buyer would have purchased locally but there were none available. So, he calls a well known FFL in Lawrenceville and has said FFL fax his lisense out to Colorado dealer. Transfer is set up, no prob. Three days later a Fed Ex truck drops a box at buyers house. Low and behold it's the rifle, shipped directly to the buyer's home. Major screw up by Colorado dealer. Local FFL claims he can't transfer gun to buyer because the gun did not come to him directly. So, is there any liabillity on the buyers part? What is he supposed to do? Thanks, Jeff |
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This exact kind of thing happened to another member (not a GA guy) recently. The general concensous was that the buyer (receiver of rifle) should refuse shipment. The reason is that by receiveing the rifle at your house you are helping to commit a felony. Grab your foil... "What if it is an ATF setup?" "What if the gun is stolen?" If it was me? I'd contact the seller and tell him what a dumbass he is and that he has committed a felony and is trying (maybe not intentionally, but still) to implicate me as well. Tell him what you plan to do. Then I'd refuse delivery. Take it back to Fed-Ex and just tell them you refuse delivery and to ship it back. I'd get some kind of receipt. I'd make the seller then send the rifle (if I still wanted it) to my FFL. I'd also ask him for a little extra something for the pain in the ass. If that guy really is a dealer he is a complete freaking idiot, and you can tell him I said so! What the hell was he thinking? If he gives you any problems ask him what he thinks ATF would say if you called them to ask their advice. edit fer speelin', cause I'm also a dumbass. 
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| The guy, or one of his employees, F'd up, it happens. In a case like this the buyer needs to contact the sending dealer and let them call the ATF and explain what happened and ask for a proper dispostion. Yeah, he'll get dinged, but the ATF is not 'out to get' honest people that make an honest mistake. They may want to review his records to make sure he's not totally sloppy and out of regs, but they aren't going to bust in and eat his children or anything. No need to threaten or extort the fellow, I think that's a little out of line. |
We need a smiley with a tinfoil hat...  Bill_Z sounds like his day job might be ATF.  Bookhound is being a little over the top because he knows the magnitude of the screw-up on the part of the Seller. FWIW, just because you received it and your FFL didn't, does NOT mean the JBT won't find you. They can review all of the Seller's shipping records and find you. When it goes that far, you don't want to be in the middle of it... Am I allowed to say this in an open forum? If you really want something off book, do it the legal way: build it yourself! You can put together your own AK for a few bucks and a few hours work. You can make your own AR receiver if you have a little skill... Bookhound- Remember our discussion? I will be back to clean this up later... J  K
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I hear ya, JKiser.  Just to be clear, when I said "ask him for a little extra something" I only meant to cover your actual expenses, such as shipping. I didn't mean to imply you should get anything more than that, but that is sure how the comment sounds. Sorry about that. |
Boohound- I don't think you're off-base even... If I did something that stupid, I would be greatful to the guy that saved my license... That FFL should do the right thing and take care of you! JK |
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Actually, I am an FFL holder Mr. Kiser, not an ATF agent. It's a shame though that you don't have a better relationship with your agent that you think a mistake like that would sink you. Yes, it is an error of great magnitude, however, trying to cover it up and make it go away wothout raising your hand to make it right will get both parties in deep shit, especially when the recieving party knows it is wrong. Right now the reciving party only opened a box up that contained a firearm, he didn't know what was inside. Now, any actions taken other than trying to right it are illegal. His best out, and the best interest of the FFL is to raise a hand and get it resolved legally. BH, your comment did sound like extorsion, I'm glad you agreed and clarified, and I do agree with you that the dealer should be grateful for any help rendered. Kiser, take your tin foil hat and stick it up your ass, of course, I mean that in the nicest possible way. Keep your business up to date and clean and the ATF is nothing to fear, even if you make an honest mistake, get sloppy and careless, well, you reap what you sow. |
You're such a funny guy.  JK |
I was speaking as though MY COMMENT required the use of a tinfoil hat - not yours... I figured you were an FFL not ATF. I was gently ribbing you because of your lack of disclosure. My whole post was supposed to be goofy at best... FWIW, I shoot with my ATF agent and we get along great. Although, I think he believes I call him too much. A mistake like this will not sink you - nor will a series of mistakes like this sink you. No great news there... But, that is another discussion that is too long to explain. Simply going "oops" won't fix it. Hence, the quick somewhat inaccurate "chicken little" resonse of "the JBT's are gonna get you all!" Now, do you understand the tinfoil hat reference? Bookhound and I were being a bit over the top to pressure this other fella to do the right thing. As an FFL holder I figure you might have understood that. What jeffdt was asking about could have harmed him, the FFL, ARFCOM and the moderator. The CoC indicates that we are to avoid discussing things that are illegal. Bookhound had an obligation to respond... I then added something to try and pull the sting out... I had no obligation to respond. I was just trying to lighten up the discussion. Now, seeing as I wasn't disrespectful to you: In the politest way possible, print this out and shove it and your keyboard up your own rectum or, grow up and apologize for your foul and unnecessary response. You choose... |
Which part? Do you mean funny "haha" or "hahahahahahahhahahahahah"? I am working on my internet comedy routine. Accountant |
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Well Kiser, the way it was grouped in your response seemed like you weretaking a shot at me. Sorry, I didn't get the FFL handbook on humor, maybe then I would have got your joke. I don't think apologies are necessary on either side, so I'll reserve mine for a worthwhile time, but I do see where I misunderstood you based on your explination, and had I understood it, I would have responed differntly. I do feel in this situation though, as serious as the cosequences could be for both parties involved if a cover up were to take place, that a clear answer should be given. There is no going back the next day to Fed-Ex and refusing a delivery you accepted like you suggested, so I don't see where the comment was over the top, just wrong. If this fellow would have done this and light been shed on the situation later and he got in trouble, while you cannot be held responsible for his actions, he would have done this based on advice from a well respected member and FFL on this board. How bad would that suck? I hate the fact that we got off on the wrong foot, but what the hell, we'll get straightened out sometime. |
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Bill_Z, as always you make good points. And as usual, I can be a bit slow. So, please enlighten me why the guy could not return the package to the carrier and explain it is illegal for him to accept it? Or maybe not tell FED-EX the contents and just ship it back to the dealer? My personal experiences with the ATF have been less than great. We've had problems getting answers to what we've thought were simple questions. Plus, I think we've all seen the ambiguous opinion letters released by them. I guess that is why I would be hesitant to involve them at this point. I'd appreciate your further comments on this matter. |
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He very well could return it to Fed-Ex and say it is llegal for him to recieve, but this would not dissolve his involvement with the ATF, they will still want a statement as to what happened. Either way, he is going to get involved with them. Shipping an item back he knows was illegal for him to ship makes him guilty of knowingly and wilfully commiting a crime, this would be as bad a decision as retaining possesion. The best two decisions would be to either call the ATF directly, and throw the FFL under the bus and let him dig himself out, or best of all, let the FFL know and let him get ahead of the game and call the ATF along with you for a proper resolution. Now the FFL is raising his hand saying he got the shipping info wrong and the recipient isn't making the problem worse. Now, let's look at a couple of other 'hypotheticals'. One from the recipients end and one from the FFL's end. Let's say the recipient calls the FFL and says, hey you screwed up, want me to send this back to you so we can get it right? , but only after they contacted the ATF and they are trying to entrap him? Hmmmm, tinfoil hat time, maybe,but I wouldn't take that chance, I'd rather take my medicine legitimately and contact the ATF myself. At this instance, the FFL goofed up and the recipient has not commitied a crime. Now, let's go at it another way. The FFL breathes a sigh of relief, accepts the rifle back, sends it to the proper FFL and the buyer gets it back. Next year, the ATF does some digging during a routine check, or maybe a check on the FFL since he has a propensity for screwing up. They find shipping records that trace back to this transaction and to what has happened. They go to the recipient and ask why he shipped the gun back to the FFL and he basically admits he was an accomplis in a felony. I'm a poor gambler, so I normally only bet on the lowest risk I can work out in my head. I'm also not a lucky gambler, so I don't count on luck. To me the lowest risk is to try to correct a mistake than to defend a crime. Is my thinking stinking? Enlighten me a little bit. |
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Some more possibilities: The person who recieved the gun has already commited a crime when he opened the package even if that wasn't his intent. From past abuses by the BATF,it is entirely likely he might be charged,even if he tries to do the right thing and the gun may be subject to siezure. Maybe I am thinking about the BATFof days past, and they are more reasonable now? I do believe that Jeff should cover his ass,but be ready to loose the gun for an inderterminate amount of time. I really doubt it is a sting on Jeff.But it is best to play by the law,even when the BATF tries to rewrite them as they please. |
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Bill, I'm a little confused about where you said it is illegal for him to ship the rifle back to the FFL. Are you saying you think it is illegal because he illegally received it? Because, to my knowledge, there is nothing illegal about shipping a firearm TO the FFL. I just know if someone is going to call the ATF on this, I'd sure want to make sure I was the guy to make that first contact. Bottom line, that phone call is to report a goof up that resulted in a FELONY (even if by no fault of the receiver). On second thought, to be fair to the FFL and buyer maybe they could have a conference call with the FFL's local ATF agent. I don't know. I still can't come up with a solution to which I would feel 100% comfortable. |
This is pretty much what I was thinking. I guess the best thing to do is cover yourself Jeff and call the ATF first. Let the FFL holder sort it out with them since it was his mistake. But be prepared for a vist from the ATF and the inpoundment of the gun. |
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Stepping in a pile of doo-doo is never comfortable, but it's better with boots on. The recipient has not committed a crime by opening a box, he has no idea what's in the box when he opens it. It could be accessories, gifts, etc.... so, at this point he is in the clear if he acts quickly and decisivley. He does need to contact the ATF, but he also needs to contact the shipper/FFL unless he just wants to throw the guy under the bus, which is tantamount to eating your own. If he sends it back, wht is he sending it back? Because he knows it's illegal, now he is willingly doing something illegal. I think there in lies the difference. I'm afraid that just shipping the gun back would be considered covering up a crime, not helping correct a mistake. The original poster does need to get clear of this, trying to kick dirt over it is not the way. |
See that is the interpretation with which I'm struggling. But I do see your points. Call ATF = (potentially) screwing up the FFL with ATF. Probably okay for buyer; assume bad for dealer. Send gun back and have shipped correctly = Could be bad for everyone. Might never be noticed and everyone lives happily ever after. If noticed by ATF, would they consider it covering up a crime? I still think if the buyer sends it back he would not be doing anything wrong. I'm no lawyer, but he is really only helping commit a crime if he keeps the gun. Weirder things have happened, but I can't see ATF going after the buyer for returning the gun. I do think calling ATF would probably be the safest thing legally for the buyer, but might result in the gun being confiscated and problems for the FFL. Sorry if I'm rambling here. |
| There is no good solution to this, but I think we can all agree that time is of the essence and that the buyer needs to cover his ass fast. He owes nothing to the FFL, especially not his freedom, but the least he could do is give them a courtesy call before he calls the ATF. You know, you could be on hold with them an hour or two from time to time.............................. |
Totally agree. 
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