Posted: 1/28/2009 7:56:52 PM EDT
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I'm sure that 99% of you have either heard of or have been part of the buying frenzy that has resulted from our national elections and the fears associated with the persons elected.
I'm also sure that 99% of you have at least heard that NC (the only state in which I have authority to speak of regarding CCH) has also experienced a large surge in the procurement of CCH permits. Well, since the elections, I receive calls daily by no less than (5) persons "shopping" for someone offering the CCH course (email is another story). Usually, I am either of assistance to the caller or the caller moves on to other persons or companies. No harm in that. More times than not, I am able to gather information from prospective students. These people very kindly and openly share information with me about other programs they may have found while researching. What disturbs me, and should disturb a lot of you due to the implications, is that about 60% of the courses I receive reports on are what is deemed by NC as "illegal" courses. Why do I have a problem with that? Why do I think we as law abiding firearm owners should have a problem with that? We firearms owners and for some, CCH permit holders, are under threat DAILY from nearly all fronts, local, state and federal. The sun moon and stars are at attempts to align and force legal injustices against us simply for the fact that we choose to engage in a sport/ hobby which interests us and also that we take our own personal safety to heart. We choose to exercise the rights endowed unto us by our forefathers... rights that should not be infringed. Folks much smarter than us (ha!) are searching for any ammunition they can use against firearms owners and/or firearms possession by us poor, uneducated, anti social, paranoid, (insert you favorite derogatory comment here), sub-humans. I frequently see posts in the "hometown forum" alerting all of us to legislation that has been penned or is pending that will "take this right away", will "ban this that and these" or whatever. Clearly folks in here and elsewhere are attune to what we collectively are facing. So back to the CCH notation I have made regarding "illegal" CCH courses. The "60%" figure I noted is from information I have collected. I have no scientific data to back me up, not to mention, who would pipe in to help me validate that number? The NC CCH program is a state program administered through the Sheriff's offices of each of the 100 counties, but the instruction that enables each Sheriff's office to begin the application process is conducted by folks, regular "Joe blows" such as myself, that have taken an educational step to enable said persons to qualify to disseminate and clarify the NC CCH program per state guidelines to applicants. The integrity of the entire NC CCH program relies on the fact (apparently "hope" in some cases) that CCH instructors have exercised the responsibility entrusted to each instructor by the state. If my number is even remotely accurate, why oh why do instructors, persons who should know the numerous ramifications of running an "illegal" course, continue to rob individuals and provide assistance to the anti gunners who would like nothing more than to see this or like programs fail? Does the need to acquire the almighty dollar need to be partly to blame for the possible dissolution of a program created to benefit and safe guard the general populous? Well, it's off my chest. I have not written this thread to advertise or promote my business. If it is viewed in that light, please alert u352 to have this post locked/deleted. For those of you that may view this as an attack, all apologies. It was not written as a form of antagonization. If, however, you are a "lurking" CCH instructor and you fit the criteria in which I have noted, get your act together or quit teaching. Don't blow this program for the rest of us. To the folks who would argue that we shouldn't need CCH permits, who's to say I'm arguing? I'm just trying to abide by the rules, so no harm meant there either. |
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Just looking for more info here. What do you mean illegal? Illegal as in a course taught by someone who doesnt have the credentials to teach the CCH class? Or illegal as in the course doesn't follow the guidelines and rules set by the state? Or some other reason?
Again, im not bashing, just would like to know more. |
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I get the same thing and I always make it a point to give them the link to the state requirements for CHP training.
12 NCAC 09F.0102 I've got a few calls back later after they've questioned the other instructor offering the speedy course. |
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I'm curious as well what illegal means. If they aren't authorized how to they teach a course recognized by the state? Or are some authorized but not teaching everything they are supposed to, getting the money and issuing a certificate anyway?
The sun moon and stars are at attempts to align and force legal injustices against us simply for the fact that we choose to engage in a sport/ hobby which interests us and also that we take our own personal safety to heart. We choose to exercise the rights endowed unto us by our forefathers... rights that should not be infringed. The 2nd Amendment isn't about sport or hunting or even about safety. It's about empowering the citizens of this nation with the ability to have an unrepressable voice, with the ability to resist and prevent an imbalance of power. |
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I'm curious as well what illegal means. If they aren't authorized how to they teach a course recognized by the state? Or are some authorized but not teaching everything they are supposed to, getting the money and issuing a certificate anyway? I'm pretty sure he's referring to the abbreviated or speed courses that are shorter than required by the state. There have been instructor certificates pulled because of this. Some have even advertised "3 hour CHP Courses" and have be corrected by the state. |
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The 2nd Amendment isn't about sport or hunting or even about safety. It's about empowering the citizens of this nation with the ability to have an unrepressable voice, with the ability to resist and prevent an imbalance of power. No arguments with that at all. |
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I'm curious as well what illegal means. If they aren't authorized how to they teach a course recognized by the state? Or are some authorized but not teaching everything they are supposed to, getting the money and issuing a certificate anyway? I'm pretty sure he's referring to the abbreviated or speed courses that are shorter than required by the state. There have been instructor certificates pulled because of this. Some have even advertised "3 hour CHP Courses" and have be corrected by the state. I believe that's what he's getting at as well. There are a surprising number of instructors who do NOT teach all the required material, and use the required amount of time. The firing qualification in some folks' courses is a joke as well. I've heard of ones where they literally just went out, stood in front of a target and fired 10 rounds. Then you pass. There are definitely illegal courses out there, and they are illegal because they do not properly ensure that the student is reasonably competent in deadly force law and firearm handling. I understand the OP's concern 100%, and I have thought the same many times myself. |
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I'm curious as well what illegal means. If they aren't authorized how to they teach a course recognized by the state? Or are some authorized but not teaching everything they are supposed to, getting the money and issuing a certificate anyway? I'm pretty sure he's referring to the abbreviated or speed courses that are shorter than required by the state. There have been instructor certificates pulled because of this. Some have even advertised "3 hour CHP Courses" and have be corrected by the state. I had a discussion with a lady yesterday. She had enrolled in one of our classes but backed out last second. Said she had found another course "around" Charlotte that was 2 hrs and $20. Didn't bat an eye that she could get hemmed up if caught. Other notations I have made: 1) less than 8 hour course; 2) No shooting for qualification; 3)Take the test home, return it to the guy/gal once finished, collect your cert; 4) Shooting for qual, but not the state suggested course of fire. This is the short list for ya. |
In situations like these we should police ourselves. If anyone finds someone offering a "course" that doesn't meet the legal requirements, notify your local sherriff. We don't want to give ammo to the anti-gunner's and we don't want people carrying guns that are unsafe to themselves or others. Not to mention shooting without legal right!  Glad you posted this M4.
Blackops_1. |
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In situations like these we should police ourselves. If anyone finds someone offering a "course" that doesn't meet the legal requirements, notify your local sherriff. We don't want to give ammo to the anti-gunner's and we don't want people carrying guns that are unsafe to themselves or others. Not to mention shooting without legal right! Glad you posted this M4.
Blackops_1. The proper place to report this is not with your local sheriff, but the Training and Standards guys up in Raleigh. I know a few months ago there was someone from the HTF that was in GD talking about an abbreviated course he received in the Charlotte-area. I provided him with all the needed contact information for Training and Standards, but it appears the guy that gave him a short class is still in business. |
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The first CCW class I took was probabably 14-15 yrs ago. The class was 3 hours long and did not involve shooting at all. This instructor was a police officer for the city of High Point. He was teaching alot of classes to FD's and LEO's. The class took place at the High Point 911 center training room. At the time I really didn't realize what he was doing was wrong. I didn't really know what the requirements were. Just think, joe-blow citizen taking a class taught by a PD officer in that cities 911 center. You wouldn't tend to think, hey this is illegal.
After taking the class I never did get my permit. I ended up holding off until I ran into a couple of Guilford Co SD officers that were going around teaching at FD's. They do the full blown class. Took their class in April of 07 and finally got my permit. Makes you wonder what some of these guys advertising at gun shows are doing. |
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In situations like these we should police ourselves. If anyone finds someone offering a "course" that doesn't meet the legal requirements, notify your local sherriff. We don't want to give ammo to the anti-gunner's and we don't want people carrying guns that are unsafe to themselves or others. Not to mention shooting without legal right! Glad you posted this M4.
Blackops_1. The proper place to report this is not with your local sheriff, but the Training and Standards guys up in Raleigh. I know a few months ago there was someone from the HTF that was in GD talking about an abbreviated course he received in the Charlotte-area. I provided him with all the needed contact information for Training and Standards, but it appears the guy that gave him a short class is still in business. Bingo, if you are an instructor, contact the program administrator in Raleigh, he will take care of the issue right away. If you're not an instructor and you have a questionable course or instructor, you can contact me with the info and I'll be happy to answer any questions and forward it for you. The local sheriff can't pull the strings that the administrator in Raleigh can. |
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There should be NO shooting qualification for getting a permit Figured that one was coming and everyone is entitled to their view. I dont have an issue with the people showing an extremely basic level of compentency with the firearms. Anyone who has been through the CCH course knows it isnt about being able to shoot well. Its just about knowing the legal aspect and being able to hit the paper at atleast 7 yards. |
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There is no shooting requirements to open carry, why should concealed carry be any different? Because a permit is needed for concealed carry and the state dictates what it takes to get the permit? As always; if you feel it should be changed; talk to your representatives. |
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There is no shooting requirements to open carry, why should concealed carry be any different? Besides since 2004 some folks just want the CCHP to buy handguns, not carry one Let's all be realistic here - if you can't handle 40 rounds for a shooting qual, you probably shouldn't even be shooting by yourself, much less carry a weapon around for defensive purposes. It's really not asking for much and it's an easy way to ensure that those with CCP's possess basic safety and marksmanship skills. The state makes it relatively easy to get a CCP, and the firing qual is, in my opinion, the easiest and most useful portion. |
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There is no shooting requirements to open carry, why should concealed carry be any different? Besides since 2004 some folks just want the CCHP to buy handguns, not carry one If you want to retain the current level of reciprocity we do now, we need to keep the current standards. Some states will drop us if we don't require firing, as they do and in order to get reciprocity we must at least match what they require. There would be some unintended consequences of dropping the shooting. |
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I took my course at Rex Indoor Range in Hendersonville, we were there for the 8hr, and took the test, and watched the videos. The instructor was a great guy, he would help anyone one on one with there grip and stance, He was not required by the state to do this, he just wanted to help people be able to better defend themselves.
My point is that there are still good teachers out there you guys just have to keep it up. 
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How do I check to see if the three chuckleheads I got my training for the CCH permit from did it legally?
Based purely on their infinite statement of military training (is that like military intelligence???) I'm begining to suspect I may have been brainwashed intstead! Can I sue for that? /JK, you know I got nothing but love for the DCNC      
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Ok that clears things up a bit.
Concerning the qualification requirement... I think that obtaining a permit implies a greater likelihood that the person will be carrying a gun. It follows intent. If I were on the street and another CCW carrier were to open fire on a BG I would feel better thinking he or she might actually hit the BG instead of me. I actually consider it more of a safety issue than anything else. Why not have basic education to prevent injury to self or others? Heck, I think basic firearms should be taught in school. |
| I was fortunate enough to be in a class taught by a few retired cops who actually briefed us on the NC CCH class hour requirements and how there are people out there who illegally cut classes short etc. A buddy of mine went through a class somewhere else just before I did and it was one of the talk for about an hour then go out and shoot a single mag deals. I remember the first day of my class thinking about his experience. |
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Another point is that some of these people are NEW SHOOTERS.
I know because I sent one to a class. She needed instruction, training, and guidance NOT just a permit. Just because most of us are shooters doesn't mean that the huge influx of new CCW holders are as well. Look at all the new AR owners as an example. These new people deserve to be given full attention and training. Not because they are required by law, but for their safety and education. In regards to the shooting portion, what if these noob shooters are TERRIBLE?? Wouldn't it be nice for them to find out on a safe firing line than in a fire fight to save their lives? An instructor could point out something simple such as a proper grip or sight alignment issue and help these people be more proficient and confident in their abilities. |
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Please keep in mind the NC CHP class is not to give combat, police or gunfight training.
I know some instructors seem to be trying to do this and I disagree with it. The purpose of the firing range was to pacify the NC legislators that a minimum standard level of competence with a fire arm was given. Keep in mind that there will be infirm and elderly in these classes who have as much right, and perhaps more need to carry concealed than most of us. Frankly the standards should be as low as passable so that more law abiding citizens can get the CHP. If you want more advanced training there are tons of schools out there. As you CHP instructor, he may be able to give you more advance instruction later. NOI |
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see sentence three
Keep in mind that there will be infirm and elderly in these classes who have as much right, and perhaps more need to carry concealed than most of us. Frankly the standards should be as low as passable so that more law abiding citizens can get the CHP.
NOI |
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m4_grunt, please forgive me for possibly adding to the derailment of your thread but I have to ask those who think that there shouldn't be a minimum proficiency in shooting for a CHP.
Do we grant a totally blind individual a CHP if they can't find the target? Do we grant a CHP to those that are unable to pull the trigger on a revolver without both hands and bracing it on the table? How about those that are unable to rack the slide on any semi auto pistol? The ones that are unable to support the weight of the firearm well enough to shoot without missing the target nine out of ten times? I don't mean this to be a smug reply, I have encountered people that were unable due to physical limitations shoot with a reasonable chance of hitting the target period. I have worked with some to overcome some handicaps but not all can be compensated for. As stated earlier, the purpose of the CHP course is not to produce tactical ninjas, it is to ensure to the best of our abilities that the person that is wishing to carry a concealed hand gun is first and most importantly safe. Second, they know and understand the laws of NC regarding the use of deadly force and the special requirements for concealed carry. Everyone has the right of self defense, it may not end up being a firearm but there are always options. I'd be just as happy getting someone comfortable with OC spray or even help with just increasing situational awareness. Just food for thought. |
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see sentence three Keep in mind that there will be infirm and elderly in these classes who have as much right, and perhaps more need to carry concealed than most of us. Frankly the standards should be as low as passable so that more law abiding citizens can get the CHP.
NOI IMO, there is nothign wrong with adding some "gunfighting" stuff to the course since having a CCH permit means you are preparing yourself for a potential gunfight. Now this added stuff shouldnt be part of determing if someone gets their certificate or not; but you are doing them a injustice by only teaching them the bare minimum. Hopefully by showing them a bit more you make them realize they have a need for more training and seek it out from somewhere. |
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Guess it depends on what you mean by adding.
If you mention to the class that this is a very basic class and other more involved training is available then I am with you. If you mean mag change drills, or reloading drills or mind set then I disagree. The common people don’t get CHP’s so they can be trained for gunfights. They get the CHP’s so that they may carry a gun legally in NC and other states that recognize the NC permit. They want to obey the laws of the state weather they agree with them or not. You might say that the purpose of carrying a concealed handgun is self protection. And in most cases I agree. But that is not the purpose of a CHP, nor the training to get one and I don’t think is should be. The requirements of the CHP were born on the cauldron of give and take and deal that is politics. These requirements were what could be agreed to by a voting majority of NC lawmakers. That is what we have to live with. Do you and I and flat frog agree these are the best requirements, or even adequate requirements? I wouldn’t think so. Personally I believe every person of legal age not convicted of a felony, nor mentally ill should be able to carry a hand gun with limited restrictions any where in the U.S. I also realize that aint gonna happen. Point is for me that there should be as little training and regulation as possible to get a CHP. Instructors who are adding on to this most basic instruction should ask themselves why. What is it I am trying to accomplish with my added training? If people want police training go to BLET, if people want combat training I can recommend some excellent schools. Ft Bragg, Ft Benning, Paris Island, Coronado For those who don’t want the whole package of Military service. There are training schools out there that can help. I believe you yourself run one such school. CHP is kindergarten for law abiding gun owners and should be treated as such. Less is more in this case. NOI |
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If you mean mag change drills, or reloading drills or mind set then I disagree. Mind set should certainly be taught in the CCH class since it helps to show the students how they can avoid having to use the firearm they have decided to carry. We most often include talk of mind set we we are covering the scenerios shown in the videos with Reese. Mag change drills? We dont have the students actually drill them, but we do show them to students since showing the students how to load thier weapons is included in the state lesson plan. The common people don’t get CHP’s so they can be trained for gunfights. They get the CHP’s so that they may carry a gun legally in NC and other states that recognize the NC permit. They want to obey the laws of the state weather they agree with them or not.
Why is the gun being carried in this state and others? For looks or for personal protection? But that is not the purpose of a CHP, nor the training to get one and I don’t think is should be.
Actually the training is about personal protection. If it weren't; you wouldnt have the videos showing when lethal force can and cant be used. Point is for me that there should be as little training and regulation as possible to get a CHP.
You cant get much less than what NC requires. I actually dont have much of an issue with the way the state program is setup. Instructors who are adding on to this most basic instruction should ask themselves why. What is it I am trying to accomplish with my added training?
I can tell you why we add more to the basic class. It is because we know virtually no one will go on to get any additional training. By covering the stuff that we do, we hope we are giving them a slightly better chance of surviving should something happen to them. If they decide to venture on to further training that is great. However we know that very few actually do this. CHP is kindergarten for law abiding gun owners and should be treated as such.
Less is more in this case. You're certainly entitled to your opinion. There have been a few people on here that have gone through our CCH class. I dont recall any of them, or anyone else for that matter, that has said that we cover too much or make the class to gunfighter'ish. I believe in giving people not what they want; but what they need. |
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The 2nd Amendment isn't about sport or hunting or even about safety. It's about empowering the citizens of this nation with the ability to have an unrepressable voice, with the ability to resist and prevent an imbalance of power. WOW, well said! Is this a quote from someone, or your words!?!?! I might tatoo this across my chest! |
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The course in itself is a violation of our freedoms, but we must abide by the current rules!
And, I must admit, I've been beside folks at the range that absolutely had no idea of what they were doing, much less able to even hit the target at 10 yards. So I have a desire to be free, and let law abiding folks do as they wish, but I am a fan of safety, which, in some cases must taught. So this is a tough one... –––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– SEMPER FIDELIS |
| I agree some courses suck. However, we shouldn't even have to take a class or PAY to exercise our RIGHTS in the first place. You don't have to pay to vote, and you shouldn't have to pay to carry a gun. We're so screwed, and most of us don't even realize it yet. |
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I agree some courses suck. However, we shouldn't even have to take a class or PAY to exercise our RIGHTS in the first place. You don't have to pay to vote, and you shouldn't have to pay to carry a gun. We're so screwed, and most of us don't even realize it yet. Well, to address your statement, you are not required to pay anything to carry a firearm. If you open carry you are good to go. You may carry anyway you like on your own premise also. When you travel "public" areas you are required to follow the "publics" wishes, the majority of the "public" has supported a permitting process for "concealed carry" of a handgun in North Carolina by the voting process. This doesn't keep you from having a firearm in public, it just regulates how you can carry it. If we ever wish to change that we need the majority of the voting public to agree. There is a key to all of this. Get the people that feel concealed carry is a right and therefore not requiring any permitting process and open to all residents of North Carolina free of restrictions to be the voting majority. We are given the tools to change our system. Voting is free as you pointed out. Now we as citizens who cherish our 2A right need to preach not to the choir but to the people that can be enlightened. Now that we've totally strayed off the OP's post I hope that we continue to be on the lookout for those instructors that do not comply with the states requirements when teaching the NC CHP course. It only hurts the public that follow the laws. |
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I was going to stay out of this discussion until I saw the following remark.
People are idiots you cant change them in 8 hours anyways..
It is qute obvious to me this poster is not an instructor. It is unbelieveable how much you can teach someone in an 8 to 9 hour time spand if they are interested in the class being tought. I would also go as far as to say 95% of the people in these classes want to be there so they are interested, and they want to learn. Ok I am done. I won't want to get worked up over nothing. |
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I dunno what the NC course consists of but, I took the SC course a few years back. If I remember correctly most of the class consisted of SC laws pertaining to concealed carry and self-defense. Our instructor also included some NRA training or something that the state of Florida would accept for their training requirement for a non-resident FL CCW.
We had a 50 question test and a 50 shot test. We got to practice before the shooting test and the instructor helped those that were having trouble. I got a little bored sitting thru the class but, it was nice to have the laws explained. The extra NRA training was basic stuff I could have done without. Some people in the class definitely benefited from it though. |
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Posted by Bama in GD:
Gun instructors forced to stop teaching
Last Edited: Monday, 02 Feb 2009, 9:08 PM MST Created On: Monday, 02 Feb 2009, 8:26 PM MST Johnny Chandler ROSWELL, N.M. (KRQE) - Two concealed carry firearms instructors with the state of New Mexico have been ordered to stop teaching. The firearm instructors, Raymond Lunsford from Loving and Stephen Bare, of Carlsbad were not teaching the statutory requirements to citizens wishing to carry a concealed handgun, according to New Mexico Department of Public Safety spokesperson Peter Olson. Special Investigation Division agents within the NMDPS attended a course on January 31, and determined that Lunsford's and Bare's instruction did not meet minimum standards. Agents discovered that Lunsford and Bare only gave 3-4 hours of instruction and were not demonstrating fire profecieny. New Mexico state law requires 15 hours of instruction, and requires each participant to prove their competency with firearms on a shooting range. Olson said since Nov 1 2008, more than 442 students have attended courses taught by Lunsford and Bare. The Department of Public Safety is examining the legitimacy of all classes taught by Lunsford and Bare. Olson said the department will determine what action should be taken regarding the Concealed Carry Licenses issued from these two instructors. http://www.krqe.com/dpp/news/crime/crime_krqe_roswell_concealedcarry_violation_stopteaching_20090202 Thread link. |