Posted: 9/21/2008 6:22:42 PM EDT
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I've been trying to get my single stage reloader set up for .223 Remington. I bought $250 worth of reloading shit so I could save money on ammo. Sigh. I have my resizing die set up and adjusted properly according to the manual. I have my $6 little holder underneath my $30 Hornaday die set, I spray my casing with my expensive spray-n-size case lube on all sides and wait one minute before inserting the once-fired casing (which, these days, is worth its weight in gold) into the resizing die. I've also lubed the die itself with the same stuff, which I shook well before using, in accordance with the directions. I pull the lever and the casing moves up to the die. It goes in most of the way easily but stops when the primer punch hits the primer. Pull a little harder on the lever and "pop" the primer pops out, and the lever has cammed over. There is about a tenth of an inch worth of casing which hasn't been resized by the die. Push back up on the lever and CRACK, off comes the rim of the casing, leaving a little round crescent of brass in the $6 holder and the casing right where it was. So I have to disassemble the die, pound out the casing with a hammer and very long punch, discard the casing, and set up the die again. In an hour's work I've done five casings, FOUR out of five have been ruined. I had one usable casing but of course ruined it while playing trial-and-error with my case trimmer. As I went along I've tried more and more case lube, but nothing seems to stop the casings from getting stuck. What about motor oil or something like that? What about dry graphite lube? Maybe this spray-n-size should be called "Rich Man's Daughter Brand Case Lube" because it costs alot of money and doesn't perform in a tight spot at all. Help! |
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Duke, I've never had a stuck case or used anything other than Imperial sizing wax. Give it a try. Also sounds like your die set may not be a full length set. My first set wasn't and sounds exactly as you describe. jmho... Give the Imperial sizing wax a try. Its cheap enough and seems to go forever. I'm finally on my second tin after almost a year. GL |
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Vectorsc and I use my Redding 2-die set for 223. We also use Hornady One Shot. Our brass is all over the place: LC, R-P, HSM, WIN, PPU, FC, you name it. I guess my questions would be: Brass type? New/Once Fired? Cleaned/Tumbled? Chamfered/De-burred? When you spry down the case are you also spraying the inside of the cartridge a little? My only thought would be if it's once fired and just dirty enough to cause things to be tight. All these different lubes are a joke though, there isn't a single one that doesn't have complaints on Midway. I also don't get why rifle dies aren't made of carbide, it doesn't solve all the problems but it couldn't hurt. |
You can get carbide rifle dies in some calibers, but they are expensive. Take a look at a carbide pistol die. You will notice that the carbide section is only a ring of 1/8" or maybe 3/16". To do a rifle die, you would have to have an insert the entire length of the die body to match the taper, shoulder, and neck of the case. Carbide is harder to cut, so cutters are more expensive and don't last as long. All of that translates to more expensive, and more difficult to make. Most people don't seem to want to pay the difference when they feel a standard steel die does the job just as well. And FWIW, unlike pistol dies, you still need to lube the cases on carbide rifle dies. But then, I lube my pistol cases too. Just dump the cases in the feeder on top of the Dillon 650 and give a few squirts of Hornady One Shot. It makes a world of difference. For Duke, I'm not sure what to tell you. I have both RCBS and Hornady die sets in .223 and have never had the problems you describe. As noted, you may be using a neck-sizing die (not full-length), or you may have a burr in the die. That definitely doesn't sound normal, though. I've never had a case separation in the sizing die, and four out of five means something is definitely wrong. Try calling Hornady Tech Support on Monday. |
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Ok, I'll try to answer all the questions here. 1. This is the die set. www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=440144 It is a full-length resizing die, since I'm going to be shooting semi-auto. 2. There are no burrs anywhere. Everything is brand new except the casings which are once fired and in very nice shape. Nothing has had a chance to get dirty yet, since I've done five fucking casings in an hour and four of them required disassembly of the brand new die to be removed and discarded. 3. The brass is PMC brand. 4. The brass has not been cleaned because it is not dirty. It has not been chamfered, deburred, trimmed, sorted, comparatored, homogenized, balanced and blueprinted, or painted with pink fingernail polish. All that comes AFTER resizing, which is the first thing you are supposed to do with once-fired brass. 5. I'm not spraying the inside of the cartridge a little. The instructions say not to do that, since the lube will destroy powder and primers and needs to be wiped off after resizing. Can't wipe off stuff on the inside of the cartridge. How do you use a paste lube? It sounds like a mess even compared to the Spray-n-size, which made my hands all sticky and made my gun room smell like a moonshine still. Goddammit. I've got to be in court in three places tomorrow and file a lawsuit way down near Springfield, I had to work in my office today on a Sunday, and what do I do during my Sunday night to "relax"? I practice taking apart, reassembling, and readjusting my sizing die four times in an hour. My hundreds of dollars worth of expensive reloading crap is useless because of something as stupid as case lube, when I followed the fucking directions. Later on in life, when I'm faced with a life threatening situation and I'm completely unarmed, I'm going to think of this night and how frustrated I was. I'm going to think of how I feel right now. And the thug who thought he was going to rob me or whatever, he's going to wonder how its possible that a fat, short lawyer jumped all over him and gouged his eyes out with bare hands. |
| I know exactly what is going on here, I had the same problem. It's the spay lube. I have always used R.C.B.S. case lube the kind you roll on a pad. It works great, but takes awhile when you reload large quantities. So I see this spray lube and think, wow my prayers have been answered. Wrong! After about 8 stuck cases I gave up on it. Come to find out later my neighbor had the same problem as well. If you dont have any liquid case lube on hand I've heard its just repackaged dishwashing liquid. I know several people who spray WD-40 on a piece of foam rubber, that works too. As far as the .1" at the base of the case not being sized thats normal for a full length sizer die. If its a problem switch to a small base sizer die, that will size the case back to S.A.A.M.I. specs. Good luck! |
I just put a little of the Lee stuff on my left forefinger and use my right hand to roll the body and neck(not the shoulder) in the lube and then automatically resize. It takes a little time, but I've only had one stuck case(a .223 in my Hornady die  ) but that was my fault for not putting enough lube on it. I do put a little on every other case mouth insides to keep the expander ball lubed. The Lee stuff doesn't stink, at least I don't smell anything. It comes right off in the tumbler, too. I don't think the PMC stuff should be too bad. I've heard some others(namely PMP, which I have at home and haven't messed with) that are harder to work through the die. Not sure what to say. BTW, I replied to your IM, Duke. |
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Duke, Hornady One Shot spray is great....I have been using it for over a decade and with Hornady dies too. Take the dies apart and clean them thoroughly. The reassemble them. Next reset your sizing die. You don't have it set properly if it can cam over like that. You should not be able to make it cam if the die is adjusted properly. Also..what is the length of your brass? Are they trimmed properly? The Lee trimmer is the cheapes and most fool proof way to trim 5.56 brass.I have been loading Lake City brass on a Dillon 550b with Hornady dies for a long time for an AR...with out a problem. If you need some help let me know. You have good tools...something just isn't configured properly assuming your brass is good and trimmed to specs. |
| You have to trim after resizing. Resizing elongates the case slightly so your case length and OAL will be screwed up if you do it in the wrong order. Even on my .308 dies which only resize the case neck, there is a noticeable difference in case length before vs. after resizing. |
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I have never stuck a case with the Lee or RCBS pastes. I tried using Canola Oil in a tupperware container. Works well, and is cheap, but I had problems with getting too much lube on the cases, and getting the cases dented up that way. I have had problems with One Shot. As I mentioned, I had never stuck a case before, until I tried one shot. Bam...stuck a case right off the bat, in a die that was fairly 'pre-lube' from the Lee paste even! So, while it is messy and takes more time, the paste is my preferred and recommend case lube. |
here's something you guys can try out ,, for the last two years i have used Canola no stick cooking spray cost alittle over a dollar at Aldi's , i was in the middle of doing a large volume of cases and my one shot can stopped spraying i was screwed out in the boonies where i live so i went to the kitchen and got the no stick spray and it has worked for me ,, ive done a shit load of cases with it . just put your case in your board and give them a lite coat of spray it's ok to get the necks coated as well , it also cleans out the inside of your die and your cases are slick when you resize . ive done alot of match 308 & 300 WM , oh it's fat free too  TS2 |
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I just use the RCBS case lube. I spread it out on a case lube pad (which is just like a ink pad for rubber stamps) and get it worked in even with my finger then I take 4-8 cases at a time and just lightly roll them on the pad. I have never had a stuck case doing this (I've done about 3000 .223). Anyways hope this helps. |
| I have used RCBS Case Slick spray for the last 15 yrs...never had any problems due to using it SPARINGLY...probably the single biggest mistake that both new AND experienced loaders make is using way too much lube..remember the dies get a build up of that inside that you dont really think about and actually after about 50-100 lubed cases I sometimes dont even lube the next hundred....less IS more in this case....over the weekend I gave a tutorial for 2 ppl who had never reloaded a case from start to finish....after about 700 rds....no stuck cases, crushed shoulders etc....couple high primers...due to not running them thru the mil pocket swager ...but thats it....... |
I was surprised to learn this when I was doing a lot of before & after measuring. I learned a whole lot! The only time I have stuck a case is when I forgot to lube the case and tried to size it dry. "Oops". Spray lubes need a bit of time for the carrier to evaporate. If sized 'wet', the lube is too dispersed to work effectively. Spray lubes also need to be shaken well. The alcohol/lanolin lubes, the majority of the pump-spray lubes, may need a tad longer tp dry depending on ambient temp. The alcohol carrier is a poor lube and may be the cause of your troubles. Hornady One-Shot is my favorite lube. I am always careful to shake it well... AND I am quite liberal when applying it. I'll lube up a bunch, and it may be days before I get to the actual sizing. I've never had a problem with it. When I'm setting up my dies, I follow directions and completely disassemble new dies and clean & de-grease them. Just before re-assembly, everything gets a good application of the One-Shot inside & out. The initial cleaning procedure strips all oil &grease, so they need something to help prevent corrosion. When I'm re-adjusting dies or setting up a new reloading session, I will use Imperial Size Die Wax (now distributed by Redding). It is easier to use on a single case, or just a few cases at a time. When everything is up & running I switch over to cases lubed with One-Shot (well-shaken, applied liberally). My preference for One Shot is because the lanolin-based sprays leave a sticky/tacky residue on the loaded ammo, not due to performance issues. |
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Guess I'm the odd man out here... I always used mink oil when i reloaded the 30-06 for the Garand. I never had a problem, with sticking or with residue. Grab a little tiny chunk out of the tin with your finger, then spin the case between your first fingers and thumb from front to back of the case, done. Very easy to wipe off the fingers between cases too, just on an old rag and you're back to 100% grip (or close to it, anyway). |
The only time I use a lubricant is when I have primer punched a stuck a case and tried to resize it when the Hornaday was dry causing elongation of the trim...  I couldn't resist either! 
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Umm.. no, but I have seen it in the movies.... Duke, have you tried letting the cases dry for an hour or so before running them through the press? BTW, if you are reloading nickel plated brass you better lube them well and let them set, preferably overnight before sizing. Trust me, I know this quite well. |
| Ive had the same problem Duke had tonight reloading some 270. After 100 rounds of 30.06 and 50 rounds of 7mm mag, I had 3 stuck 270 cases. Luckily I have a stuck case remover. Not sure what the problem is, but I use hornady one shot and have never had a problem with any other caliber. Every piece of 270 brass I resized was hard as hell. This was a brand new set of RCBS dies. |
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If you're going to One Shot lube, follow the instructions to the letter. Or suffer stuck cases. One Shot works well for folks that follow the directions, and miserably for those that don't. How to use Imperial Sizing Die Wax efficiently; - get a little Imperial on your thumb and first two fingers, - as you pick up a case to put it in the shell holder, wipe lube on the case. Get a little in the case mouth, then - size the case. Very little Imperial is needed on a case. You don't add an extra step to handle the cases as happens when lubing a rack of cases before sizing. A little lube inside the case mouth keeps the expander ball from stretching the shoulder out when withdrawn, undoing part of the sizing operation. I either delube immediately after sizing or after trimming, depending on which way I want to use. Tumbling for 15 minutes in walnut or corn cob, in a vibratory or rotating tumbler is sufficient. I've never tried to find out a minimum time, but I'll bet 10 minutes is enough. I like tumbling after trimming because the media also removes all the brass shavings. If you want to use a spray lube, try Dillon or make your own. Ask in the Reloading Forum for various formulas. Lanolin plus isopropyl alcohol, LEE lube plus alcohol, and RCBS lube plus alcohol all can be used. |
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Duke others have said it, but from reading your first post. I believe your first problem is that you did not wait long enough for the carrier to evaporate. I use the Dillion spray lube myself and have yet to stick a case. Unlike a few times when I rolled 30-06 cases and felt that I had enough lube built up in the die to skip lubing one case, wrong. I also have to ask, how far out do you have the decapping pin. You want it just far enough to punch out the primer. And if this is military surplus that has the primer crimped in, it will be harder to punch it out. Once it is punched out, you will need to remove the crimp or you will have a hard time to impossible time installing new primers. I only use imperial sizing wax for the 50 BMG shells. Lanolin is your and my friend. It is suppose to be powder friendly and unlike oils, it does not ruin the powder. So I agree with getting some of it into the neck of the shell. that or you will need to use a brush and get some graphite into the inside of the neck. As someone else pointed out, if you do not lube the neck, you could pull out the shoulder and it will not chamber. Also it makes it easier to pull the case back down and will make the expander ball last longer. Relax and slow down and think through each step / case. You are a very intelligent man and I hope you realize you are in a learning curve at this time. So, dont let a few ruined cases put you off. Good luck on your next efforts. I am sure that you have some one local that could come over and check out your equipment and technique. Or show you how to do it. Hell I would be there in a new york second to lend you and hand.. BTW make sure you degrease your powder measure well. Had a friend that I told this too and he did not. He contamined about 100 rounds of 9mm. Each round fired, but jammed the bullet in the barrel. What a pain in the arse. |
| I have used Hornady One Shot, Dillon spray lube and currently us an RCBS case lube pad and have never had a problem, but I always lube the inside of the case neck. I then tumble the brass after resizing to clean any lube off. I reload a lot of 223 PMC cases and never have any problems. You will need to remove the military crimp from the primer pockets also, assuming it's the bronze line of ammo you are using to reload |