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Posted: 12/7/2005 2:43:32 PM EDT
After reading some posts here recently, and hearing some similiar comments in person in the past (usually those new to boards, or new to MODCC), I felt the need to post a short history of MODCC so that there wasn't any confusion as to what it was, and to some degree, what it is now (and how it got there).

Early on, before MODCC was even a real concept, we Missouri members (alot fewer in number than there are now) decided to get together one November afternoon and shoot, put some faces to the screen names. If I recall, Duke was behind the very first organized arfcom shoot (did you have to pick a cold, drizzly day in Nov man ).

Not long after that, we were holding more frequent shoots. These were always informal, and basicly just a blast session. No serious competition shooting of any sort. It was a good time for sure.

A year or two down the line Hkocher (where ya been man?), came up with the idea starting a "tactical" style competition, that while still fairly informal, would be something that would be more than just a group shoot (which again, were being held fairly frequently anyway). The inspiration of course from FDCC.

Basicly the intention was to have a competition where you could be as serious with it as you wanted, or just goof off, but it would still be an organized event instead of a free for all shoot.

We chose the Finger Lakes range in Columbia because it was central, and because that's where we were holding the group shoots. We went through the hassle of getting permits so we could have one whole side of the range to ourselves to set up COF's.

The first months were incredibly fun, even if they were alot of hard work (transporting the material to the conservation range for the COF's was almost a job in and of itself). Not huge turnouts, but always a good group of people. And while they were free, we still asked for donations. And while the donations didn't usually cover the costs (building materials, targets, etc), it wasn't so over budget that the organizers didn't mind paying a little out of pocket.

After a few months, CMMG started to sponsor the events, and showed up with some fun toys, as well as giveaways.

Not long after that we started realizing that the conservation range wasn't going to last for long. Besides the problems with NFA firearms, they also didn't seem to like the fact that we were taking up one side of the range for a day, and shooting at "people" targets.

CMMG offered use of their land, which was very gracious of them. So MODCC moved there. Where it has stayed since.

This seems to be where a few people start really misunderstanding what took place. First, if it had not moved to CMMG, I'm not positive MODCC would have found another place to shoot.

For a long period of time, not even sure how many months, CMMG charged NOTHING. In fact, I offered many times to step up and ask for donations for the shoots, but many times it was honestly forgotten. And believe me when I tell you, CMMG spent alot of money out of pocket to hold these shoots. Targets, chamber flags, etc. It added up fast as we got more and more new people showing up. One of the reasons they didn't feel like asking for donations was because they didn't feel right asking for money, when all they really had was a makeshift COF set up in the woods at the time (which honestly, I kind of miss ).

Last spring they decided, after investing literally thousands of dollars in building some very nice ranges, to start charging $10 to shoot. Now, I don't know about you, but that is an incredibly cheap amount to pay for what you get.

Sure, many of us have free places to shoot (lots of convservation ranges in MO). But how many times do you get to shoot any competitions for free? Let alone to shoot the awesome COF's that they have set up? I can't think of anywhere in MO that does this, again, let alone for free.

So while MODCC isn't "free" anymore, it really never was (is anything ever really free?). Somebody was always footing the bill. And for a long time, even in the beginning, it was costing more to put on than it was bringing in from donations. In fact, I'd wager that it still does. For some reason, some seem to have a hard time figuring this out.

Just wanted to clear the air a bit on the subject, because there seems to be some who are confused about what MODCC was, where it came from, and from the motives of CMMG in the whole affair.

If I have forgotten any relevant facts, or not given credit where credit is due (I apologize in advance), please feel free chime in.
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 2:56:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/7/2005 3:27:19 PM EDT by rmdye]
Duke or MEDCOP
i think it was Medcop, but those were also the days of the castle arms people.

the scuba shoot and heat stroke shoot. colmen canasters do not shoot with a 50

correct Beekeeper.

or cutting treas down in the snow.

but i think you hit it on the head. Bud.

Ronald
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 5:43:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/7/2005 5:47:45 PM EDT by JBowles]
We need to actully estiblish MODCC

I remember talking about it back at my first shoot in feb.

It will be helpful to have a real club if/when we get around to legalizing supressours for us guys not making Machine Guns.

And get some more Tshirts.



Hkocher is still around

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Link Posted: 12/8/2005 1:08:13 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 9:33:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/8/2005 9:36:00 AM EDT by SUB_MG]



IMHO, if it wasn't for the CMMG guys, we wouldn't have a MODCC. And I haven't even been to one of them in a year and a half.




I couldn't agree more. Wait until you see all the changes...so when are you going to be back in town to visit?

You probably have seen some of the pictures of the upgrades CMMG has made over the last year, but you may have missed some of the latest including the new wooden "sniper"platform and berms for long range shooting with 100, 300 & 600 yd ranges if I recall correctly. Have to test out the Barrett one of these days.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 10:14:26 AM EDT
I've only started going about 6months ago its $10 to shoot and that’s DAMN cheap
its $5 for the COF which is the best times I’ve had shooting and think of it like this
Last time I shoot 3 rds. in their P90 they provided ammo that’s about $3
Then I blasted the hell out of their cardboard targets $?
They then have a shotgun course where they have that flatbed mule thing set up and a pumpkin for you to shoot.
They aren't trying to make money in hosting these shoots.
These guys are doing it for fun when people come and spend $100+ on ammo then they shouldn't complain about $5 or $10 they ask to cover some of the cost

just my 2cents
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 1:02:06 PM EDT
We knew in the beginning it wasn't going to stay the same. I think the general consensus was we would either take off (Like we did) or just die off. Either way it had to change. I believe the CMG/MoDCC pairing has help out both. Not only that but I don't think we could do better for a corporate sponsors than Jeff and John. I haven't made as many shoots lately for two reasons, first is I just got through moving and second is driving a truck that gets 11.5 mpg 3/4ths of the way across the state really eats up the slush funds. I also realize CMMG has grown immensely. I will even go so far as to predict it won't be another year or two before their business keeps them hopping to the point they won't be able to host us except on rare occasions. Sorry to say it but is just the way the business world works.
Regardless of what some folks think it is still a darn good deal even with the token admittance/shooting fees. I seriuosly doubt there is anywhere cheaper that is still as much fun. I plan on enjoying it while I can even though I do know eventually something else will give and I will have to find somewhere else to shoot.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 5:40:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/8/2005 5:41:13 PM EDT by kpel308]
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 7:40:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/9/2005 5:34:52 AM EDT by nascar3n8fan]
First off, although I was not at the very first shoot, I did start attending the MODCC shoots while they were still held at Finger Lakes, so I am neither new to the boards (despite my post count) nor to MODCC.

Second, I would like to thank John and Jeff for their hospitality in hosting the shoots and feel that I have become friends with them over the past couple of years. Due to their knowledge of AR-15 rifles, I have learned much and my wallet is much lighter for the experience.

Through my experiences with MODCC, I believe that I have gained several good friends who share a passion for guns and things that go boom.

I agree with much of what Gary said. I believe that both MODCC and CMMG have thrived from the mutual relationship.

However, I do disagree with Shamus on a few accounts. Perhaps my memory isn't what it used to be or there were things that I wasn't privy to and maybe there were things that you weren't aware of .

1. "... if it had not moved to CMMG, I'm not positive MODCC would have found another place to
shoot."


I seriously doubt this. MODCC may not have aquired quite as large a following as it currently
enjoys but if you get several guys that want to get together to enjoy a sport such as shooting, they will find somewhere to shoot. I believe that to say otherwise is discrediting what so many people have worked to establish.

2. "For a long period of time, not even sure how many months, CMMG charged NOTHING. In
fact, I offered many times to step up and ask for donations for the shoots, but many times it was
honestly forgotten. And believe me when I tell you, CMMG spent alot of money out of pocket to
hold these shoots."


There were many people that had money and time invested in MODCC. Between people getting to the shoots hours ahead of time to set up, guys like Marshall scrounging for metal to build us those awesome metal poppers and swinging targets, Brad, Glen, Robert and many others meeting at someones house to build the walls for the COF's, Mike and others spending half or better of their shoot time pasting targets or being the timekeeper, all the people that got us started by talking to the Conservation Department on our behalf, the guys that cared enough about going shooting that they organized cleanup days at Finger Lakes range, and many more that I apologize to for not specifically mentioning your names.

I sometimes felt that I was not contributing enough and offered to pay also, but I was assured by the people mentioned above, that the few hundred dollars and countless hours from the time I got off work until 4:00 in the morning the night before the shoot, grinding up powder for explosive targets was my contribution and those people were fine with it. I didn't ask for donations either, because I enjoyed getting to see the reactions on people's faces and I felt that it was my way of contributing to the club.

I guess that maybe that was why I personally was a little put off the first time I was charged to participate. Then I found out that I wasn't the only one and to be honest I was kind of pissed off. Everyone was still contributing, but now we were being charged to do so.

3. "and from the motives of CMMG in the whole affair"

BTW, I do know that CMMG incurred costs, I'm not denying that at all and I appreciate every bit that they have done. I understand that they ante'd up for targets and chamber flags and insurance. But I'm not new to the business world and I wasn't born last night and I also know a little
about tax deductible advertising and business expenses. The guys at CMMG are our friends (hopefully still mine after they've read all this) but they are in business to sell guns.

The fact that we were looking for a better place to shoot and CMMG offering to sponsor and host the shoots for guns that they just happen to sell was no coincidence. I wouldn't even dream of thinking any less of them if this was their motive, it's just good business. They're not the first to set up a shooting range at their gun shop nor will they be the last.

Just as an example, out of loyalty and appreciation for them hosting the shoots (and at least in my mind realizing the purpose of why they were doing so) I myself have bought both a complete rifle and lower and parts from these guys when I knew that they didn't necessarily have the rock bottom prices and I could have just as easily bought a more well known brand, and I'm sure that my spending there probably wouldn't even touch what some of you have spent. I also know that on these boards that I'm not alone in jumping into threads where someone was asking about CMMG rifles and saying "Yes go ahead and buy the CMMG, I've got one and I love it and the guys at CMMG are as good as gold."

You can't hardly buy advertisement and testimonials like that.

So Shamus, which of the following is true?

A. I've Greatly underestimated CMMG's generosity and greatly Overestimated their marketing
ability. (If this is the case I owe John and Jeff a thousand apologies)
or
B. I've Greatly overestimated your knowledge of business.
or
C. You take us all for idiots by implying that there were no other motives.


4. " Last spring they decided, after investing literally thousands of dollars in building some
very nice ranges, to start charging $10 to shoot. Now, I don't know about you, but that is an
incredibly cheap amount to pay for what you get."


Now this may be something that you may or may not know Shamus, and it's probably my largest source of frustration.

When John and Jeff started talking about building the berms for the ranges, I offered, on multiple occasions to do the work for them. We, (our family excavation company), has a few million dollars worth of dirt moving heavy equipment. I basically offered to either donate my personal time or trade my time for a rifle and informed them that Dad would more or less trade them the actual machine cost for guns. Now, I know that nothing is guaranteed in the business world, but to be honest I kind of thought that there might be a little loyalty coming back my way. Nada.

BTW, if the pictures posted of the construction of the ranges was any indication, the work could have been done in half the time (or less) if the correct equipment had been used, there wouldn't be need to repair the berms because they should have been compacted, and if I owned that kind of junk equipment I would find something else to do. (With the exception of Mike's Bobcat)

Upon talking to a couple of guys, I also learned that Metalman had made a similar offer on metal targets and was met with the same results.

5. "Just wanted to clear the air a bit on the subject, because there seems to be some who are
confused about what MODCC was, where it came from"


In my not so humble opinion, I don't believe that I am confused in the slightest. MODCC was formed because a group of guys wanted to, as you said, put some faces to the screen names, but more importantly to share the comradery of the sport of shooting and improve our skills.

You also speak of MODCC in the past tense, I think of it in the present tense and the fact that it is alive and well wherever we meet.

For what it's worth, I've always had a good time at the shoots, thanks to the work of so many. For me it's more about getting to see and bullshit and shoot with my Friends, which is probably the answer to your question of why I kept going.

If after reading all this, you want to revoke my MODCC T-shirts, well then, Molon Labe.

Finally, I really never intended to write this much or put it all out here on a public forum like this, so if any feelings were hurt, sorry, but that's how I feel.

Just my $.04 (too much damn typing for just $.02)
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 7:50:34 PM EDT
WOW!!!!! Well put.
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 5:22:51 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 6:21:56 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 12:55:10 PM EDT
First off The gun was not putting the bullets over the berm, ask everyone there that came over to shoot, you could plainly see the bullets hitting in the lower half of the berm You came over and told us that you guys could hear the bullets flying "buzzing" threw the air from the other range, i told you it was the bullets lobbing out of the barrel, its well worn and they were tumbling, you thought that was funny, watched us shoot a while then left. If there was a hazard you would of told us to quit shooting im sure but you saw that without us re adjusting the tripod, that the bullets were hitting in a safe place, NOT over the berm.

As far as the ear/eye protection, we was wearing them unless we were at the truck resting or reloading. You came and told us once when caity wasnt wearing eye protection, that was it.

I did put 4 rnds of .22 into the side of the berm sighting in the AR for the cof, not 223.

You never came over and told us that the bullets were going over the berm, or to encourage me to follow the rules other then caity to wear the eye protection 1 time.

After the last shoot i fully intended on never coming back up there anyway, as i told several people there. I can do more here on my private ranges then you can there anyway. Then i dont have to deal with money hungry arrogant hosts pretending they are god. There were others there that talked the same, they wont speak up so they dont burn bridges but you will notice the drop in attendance, as if you havent already.

If i was really putting bullets over the berm, you should of came over and told me to quit instead of letting me shoot there for 7-8 hrs like i did, cause then you also put the neighbors in jeoprady. But we both know you didnt tell me that because i WASNT putting them over the berm, you just got your feelings hurt cause someone spoke up, instead of kissing up, like your buddy shamus, wonder why he talks so highly of ya, maybe cause hes selling your guns and parts for you so that means hes just protecting his best interset. What happened with the CMMG, bushmaster comparison thread on the AR full auto thread shamus? Soon as i brought up the GIFFMAN barrel buy you shut up, never came back for a response.

You guys have used people from the beginning and act like its ok, because your CMMG. You need to pull your heads out your ass and treat the people that MADE you what you are with a little respect, like calling them by their names instead of HEY YOU, yeah that happened that same day i put 7000 rnds over the berm, and it was to a person who has been there from the beginning and that has helped you ALOT. He doesnt want me bringing up his name, but i get a good bit of positive feedback for telling it like it is to you guys.

Have fun, it was a hoot.
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 5:39:29 PM EDT
at all of this
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 11:10:35 PM EDT
All I know is CMMG puts on one helluva shoot. Why now is the dirtwork so bad? If you didn't like it in the first place why didn't you say anything? This is how internet wars start. One person that gets their feeling hurt stores the agression until it boils over. People just want to go to CMMG, shoot, and have a good time. If you don't like the way the range is set up don't go.
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 5:26:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/10/2005 5:35:18 AM EDT by fnman]
beltfed & NASACAR fan, do us all a favor and don't come to any more CMMG matches. We want to shoot with people who want to have fun and compete and who appriciate what Jeff and John have done for us. You can burn up your ammo at home if it is such a hassle.

Beltfed, if it was my range, you would never be invited back. It is obvious you are not concerned with range safety. You are the epitome of ignorant
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 7:08:14 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 7:59:48 AM EDT
OK so heres my disjointed perspective on it.

First of all, ShamusMcoi has a historical perspective on MODCC as does Duke, HKocher,GaryM, and many other of the 'oldsters' of MODCC. I showed up at the second or third shoot I think, so I have a bit of history as well.

I think Beltfed is missing the point of MODCC in the first plcae, and this phrase has been uttered many times before;

"MODCC is about a bunch of people getting together to shoot safe and have fun!"

It really never got larger than that. CMMG has been a sponser, and now hosts the MODCC shoots with great success IMO. There may have been a surge in people coming to the shoots. But I really do not think that has changed what MODCC is, and really should stay as.

One of the reasons I spent so much time helping build the COF's and bringing out steel, is because thats the kind of stuff I like to do, and shoot!!!! I was lucky in getting all the materials free. The time spent building it all was a blast!!!! Having build nights and drinking Guiness with good friends!!! I really cant complain.

I havent built COFs in a while because of time,family, and job. All things I am sure we can empathize with.


At first I was redicent about being charged. Now I really dont care. I still am an addict when it comes to shooting FA (thank god I havent gotten my SOT ....yet.).Jeff and John provide a freakin killer service in those rentals, that you will find in very few places.


I think that generating new gun enthusiasts should be all of our job. Bringing new people to the shoots as much as possible.

And most importantly.....less whining and complaining. There are choices; grab a tool and help, drop some cash to help, or just dont come to the shoots.

I really think this is a non-argument type of thing. "MODCC is about a bunch of people getting together to shoot safe and have fun!"


I still really am thankful for the friends I have gained through MODCC, and the times spent at the shoots. When I can get more time and $ I will be back.....count on it.
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 8:17:42 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 9:37:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By beltfedMGs:

You never came over and told us that the bullets were going over the berm, or to encourage me to follow the rules other then caity to wear the eye protection 1 time.




You shouldn't have to be encouraged to follow the rules. We have them so nobody gets hurt. If you cant follow them than thats your problem. Safety should be your number one priority anyways.

Somebody will just have to write the rules out in crayon for you next time



And thank you CMMG for all that you do!
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 11:05:23 AM EDT
I've only been going to the CMMG shoots for the last two years...back when they had pushed up a single berm and didn't charge a fee, so I haven't been involved in this as long as some members. Based on my limited time participating in the MODCC shoots, I'm having a difficult time understanding the issues that are being brought forth by at least two member from what I have read. I may be missing something, but the issues seem to be the following:

1. Charging a fee to shoot on their property.
2. Enforcing saftey concerns as the property owners and range officers.
3. Earth moving to create berms.

Am I missing anything?

1. $5 to shoot 3+ COF and $5 to shoot all of your guns (including machineguns), and then providing lunch and drinks without having to waste an hour+ driving for another $5. Is someone really complaining about this????? You may be able to find ranges for around $10 for a day if you are lucky but you will not get a to shoot COF and machineguns this cheap. I typically spend $100 -$150 for a spot on the line, not including the hotels, travel, and ammo. Where can you do all of this for $10. Some members may have some property in the country where they can shoot for free, but not all of us are that lucky, nor do we have a 600 yd range, COF's, and places to shoot machineguns.
2. Any time any shooter sees something that concerns them about safety, it is their responsibility to stop the shooting and correct any issues that could cause an accident. A range officers job is to keep things safe. You can either do what they say or stop shooting.
3. Seems to be a business decision made by the owners of the property that they felt was in their best interest. It may not be the way the shooter wanted it, but the final decision was the property owners.

I hope I have not missed anything or over simplified anything. If I did, please feel free to post your opinion, shooter to shooter, I'm not the enemy...the anti=gunners are. They are trying to close down ranges as we are bitching about why we can't shoot for free

Link Posted: 12/10/2005 1:30:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/10/2005 1:37:02 PM EDT by AFSOC]
I hate to reply to this stuff because someone will always take offense... Oh well here goes.

My first experience with MODCC was the "The Ban Is DEAD Shoot" September of 2004, I enjoyed it greatly! Great fun with some great people it was nice to put names with faces, Other than Jeff and John I knew no one at the shoot and I only really knew Jeff and John as a customer of theirs for several years at gun shows... I was only too happy to drop some cash in the Donation Bucket... for the first few shoots I was able to attend then there was a thread here about charging for the shoots and I whole heartedly support that position. 5.00 to shoot 5.00 to shoot the COF, and 5.00 for lunch, I have a great time there. I will continue to attend until Jeff and John see otherwise I also usually opt to purchase a few items while I am there, Speaking of which I owe John an order for some parts now, I met my two business partners at those shoots... I volunteered my time and assistance as well, Timing equipment etc. My first shoot I got to see Wayne and his daughter shooting the 1919! seeing little Caity rattling off the rounds on the beltfed was well worth any admission I might have paid! So cool I looked forward to it, not everyday you get to see such. I saw Wayne run a COF with a slung 1919, and I heard about the fire breathing but was unable to attend due to medical reasons. To each his own and if some folks choose not to attend, that is their business, just don't make it the "I don't get to shoot for free" excuse... I have never shot for free I always gave a donation and frankly the amount I pay now for me and my nephews and much is less than what my donation was and I presume as usual with these sorts of things there were an equal amount of folks who just came to shoot and did not donate a dime.... I have hosted shoots and competitions before myself and it always happens... Targets cost money they are not free target pasters cost money, Target stands steel knockdowns and such all cost money, construction materials and earth moving cost money. This is headed for being the best and possibly only range of it's kind in Missouri not too many where you can engage targets at varying distances and rapid fire and fire an movement... I don't get too much chance to practice these skills... Thanks Jeff and John for putting up with us! Please don't let this stuff ruin a good thing...
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 1:31:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/10/2005 1:35:24 PM EDT by AFSOC]
Oops an ND!
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 3:42:44 PM EDT
I think we should have an old fashioned shoot at ShamusMcOI's place.

I wonder how long it would take for the neighbor's dogs to recover.
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 3:48:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/10/2005 3:50:59 PM EDT by calsapher]
Fist off, I am hardly a veteran of these aformentioned shoots, but going to beltfed's shoot today I would like to say something in defense of beltfed. I at no time felt unsafe with the gentlemen at the shoot they were all very safe and courteous, and to call beltfed "ignorant" and as mod 16 put it "write out the rules in crayon" just shows the maturity level you individuals are working with. This is obviously an issue between beltfed and cmmg and little comments such as the ones mentioned are really only fueling the fire.
Just my unbiased opinion
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 3:06:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2005 3:21:16 PM EDT by ShakyJake]

Originally Posted By calsapher:
Fist off, I am hardly a veteran of these aformentioned shoots, but going to beltfed's shoot today I would like to say something in defense of beltfed. I at no time felt unsafe with the gentlemen at the shoot they were all very safe and courteous, and to call beltfed "ignorant" and as mod 16 put it "write out the rules in crayon" just shows the maturity level you individuals are working with. This is obviously an issue between beltfed and cmmg and little comments such as the ones mentioned are really only fueling the fire.
Just my unbiased opinion



Actually, no it's not. This issue has been felt by a few folks for a long time. Do I lie awake at night because of it? Hell no. Is there a bitter taste still left? Hell yes.


Originally Posted By fnman
beltfed & NASACAR fan, do us all a favor and don't come to any more CMMG matches. We want to shoot with people who want to have fun and compete and who appriciate what Jeff and John have done for us. You can burn up your ammo at home if it is such a hassle.

Beltfed, if it was my range, you would never be invited back. It is obvious you are not concerned with range safety. You are the epitome of ignorant



First off, I know Mike has already responded to your post, but you sir are the one speaking out of ignorance. IMO, anyone who has started going to the shoots in the past year should really stay out of this thread.

Now, before I go further, I will say that from a BUSINESS end, I have a very positive view of CMMG. They offer great products and great service. Jeff and John have cool toys and like to share them. And their shop and range (while in BFE for a lot of folks) is awesome. Hell, just a couple of months ago I was telling my local FFL/Class III dealer that they run a good business and talking about how they make their own stuff also.

But, to comment on the remark I have highlighted in your post, words like that really chap my ass. What I, and a few other folks feel/felt, is that when MODCC came to a HUGE speedbump around two years ago at the conservation range dealing with the deer hunters and the FA issue, is that CMMG took advantage of a nice window of oppurtunity to use MODCC to help further their business, not just to help us out. And soon after, it really seemed CMMG was running MODCC, not the guys who got MODCC started.


Originally Posted By M15A2
All I know is CMMG puts on one helluva shoot. Why now is the dirtwork so bad? If you didn't like it in the first place why didn't you say anything? This is how internet wars start. One person that gets their feeling hurt stores the agression until it boils over. People just want to go to CMMG, shoot, and have a good time. If you don't like the way the range is set up don't go.



It was never meant for CMMG to be putting on one helluva shoot. Jeff(or John?) offered two years ago for us to use their place as an alternative after dealing with that conservation officer. We were all like "heck yeah, nobody to bother us, and they can still bring out their full auto toys". Finger Lakes was originally picked because of it's location. But the freedom of shooting at Jeff and John's was a much better choice at the time. But then the shoots started attracting a lot of folks, and that's where, I feel, the issues began. It seemed like"hey, look at this customer base, and we have control of the situation."

I think the reason folks have let it boil up is that outside of this issue, everyone has had a helluva a time hanging out and getting to know people on both sides of this issue. I just hope when I come home for a visit in the spring this won't have turned into a Team Missouri civil war. The Ohio team is really awesome, but I still really miss not having shot with my home team in forever, and I probably haven't met 80% of the currently active posters here. Some old schoolers need to show back up
----------------
And now to add a little more history, HKocher's first post about starting MODCC:



5/6/2003

First off, I haven't been in MO that long, so if there is something similar out there, please let me know.

But after wandering over to the Florida forum, I've gotten really interested in what they got going on with their FDCC.

www.floridashootersnetwork.com/fdcc.html

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=10&t=169404

Is anyone else interested in setting up something similar? I don't know if it is doable, or if enough people are interested, but I thought I’d plant the idea in everybody’s head here and now.

If we were to try this, here is what I would hope to achieve with the group:

1. To enhance our DEFENSIVE shooting abilities in a safe but realistic environment, with a focus on our beloved 'black rifle' and other military style longarms.
2. To attract new members to the world of the 'black rifle' and to teach them the proper shooting skills and safety procedures.
3. To build friendships within the Missouri/IL/KS shooting community.

and most importantly

4. To have fun!

Here is what I’m looking for as far as structure:

In order to keep things fun, I think we need to keep it simple. I don’t know about you guys, but I think some folks have been turned off by competitive shooting in general due to the dictionary-sized rulebooks that often accompany them. In keeping with the idea of a bunch of friends shooting together for fun and to develop skills, perhaps a small set of rules (of course safety will not be sacrificed in exchange for brevity) is in order.

I personally want to focus on carbine/rifles in military calibers, but I don’t want to exclude anyone. Perhaps if this works, we could add shotgun, handgun or even subgun/MG to the mix, but for now, let’s keep to carbines/rifles.

I think to keep it enjoyable and keep things moving at a good pace, NO CLASS divisions. That means a guy with a SKS, shoots next to the guy with the tricked out M4. Maybe we could modify this if the majority is not in agreement. Perhaps an open class and a stock class, but again, more rules usually equals less fun… But skill will ultimately decide the matches. Personally, I got a fair share of gadgets, but in my own mind, I’m not a skilled shooter, hence my desire to LEARN and IMPROVE!

So with this in mind, I’m going to run over to the Florida board and see if they can help get us rolling with suggestions and general guidelines.

Please let me know if anyone has suggestions.

My questions:

What do we need, materials, people, etc…?
Range time, how to secured some time at a public (or private if someone belongs to one or has some pull) range for shoots?
Rules, what do you guys want to see? Particularly with regards to class divisions?
How often, and where?


Also, if anyone has any experience as a firearms instructor (civ, Mil, LE, doesn’t matter) and is willing to give some helpful advice regarding setting this up, that would be greatly appreciated!

I think this is a great idea. I don’t have a lot of free time, but I am willing to try to get this thing rolling if I get some help and some positive feedback from the MO folks. I would love to start shooting on a regular basis with the local crew, and this would give us a good reason to do it.

Let me know what you think!



Link Posted: 12/12/2005 4:26:19 PM EDT
i have never been to a shoot at CMMG--jake tells me i have met jeff and john, but even before i moved, there were so many new faces at finger lakes, i didnt always get to meet everyone


what i will call the "barter system" was in effect at finger lakes--some people brought targets, some people brought cool toys--we didnt have many toys at the time, so we brought food to share (apple brats, ken--i miss them too--i bring brownies to the Ohio shoots now) others brought chips or drinks or something of their own to throw on the grill or share

this seemed to work--we always had tons of leftover food (which we sent home with hungry poor bachelors) lots of people either came early or stayed late to set up and clean up and it all seemed to come out even

i sincerely doubt MODCC wouldve ceased to exist--if there is one thing i have learned on this site in the last 2 1/2 years (i originally got my membership to thank all the guys for the compliments on my BBQ skilz) is that SHOOTERS WILL FIND A PLACE TO SHOOT

its as simple as that--if you dont mind the overhead and like CMMG's toys, more power to ya--if you think they are running a racket (ive never been--i abstain from judgement) then get together with a smaller group when/where you can

play nice boys, ok??
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 6:43:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2005 6:54:06 PM EDT by HKocher]
I wanted to respond to this thread. It started off good, but I’m unhappy that it got ugly before I could contribute.

First off, yes, I’m still alive. I don’t post much on ARFcom (or anywhere else for that matter) anymore. I do lurk in the EE, AR15 side, and hometown when I can. Been busy, lots of things going on in my life. I do regret not making it to many shoots, but I work a lot of weekends and when I am off on a weekend I feel bad leaving my wife for half a day (no she wouldn’t go to a shoot). Also I moved to south city (STL), so the drive to the CMMG range is about 3 hours for me. What happened to my chauffeur, DKProf???

I have fond memories of MODCC shoots. I have to honestly say that my favorites were the first few we had at Finger Lakes. It was a small, cozy group, and you knew almost everyone’s real name. To me, it was the epitome of the good in the gun culture. Everyone helped out in whatever way they could. Whether it was cleaning the range on off days (which so many did), bringing food (DC and ShakyJake kept us well fed), bringing steel (Marshall), building barricades and stands (BTW Shamus is 99% responsible for that, since he supplied the wood, the job site and most of the labor. I supervised because I’m not very good w/ a hammer and saw ), timing/scoring/pasting (Duke, Ozy, and many others), obtaining permits for the shoots (Glen), loaning guns and ammo (Gary, Eric), or contributing money to pay for targets and stuff. Sorry about the folks I didn’t name personally, but they also contributed. Ron, AeroE, Brad, Justin, MP906, DKProf, Bano, to name a few others. Oh yeah, Jeff for bringing the MGs!

Anyway, we went through a big change w/ CMMG. They were VERY gracious to invite us onto their land. They took a risk inviting a bunch of yahoos w/ guns onto their property and letting us blast away for one day a month (when the schedule permitted). Listen, I haven’t been around for a while, so I can’t criticize any one for their personal opinions. Hell, I don’t even know all of the new guys. I do know Justin, and he’s a good guy, so I definitely won’t attack him for his personal statements.

So here’s my perspective on CMMG. They are letting us use their land and have been constantly making improvements that better the shoots. Are they doing it purely out of generosity? I can’t answer that. I’m sure they get some sales out of the deal and good publicity. So what? Good for them, they deserve it. They spend a lot of time on the range before, during and after the shoot. My time is worth money, I’m sure their time is too. I seriously doubt they survive purely on the shoots and the sales they generate. And I think the “we MADE CMMG” statements are BS. They made themselves by offering a good product and excellent service. I’m sure ARFcom as a whole helped them tremendously (as it did many other fine dealers), but to say the MO shoots ‘made’ their business is insulting to all their hard work and investment. Should they run the show? Yes and no. I kind of miss having my small amount of control over MODCC, and I feel the founders and participants should have some say in the rules and regs. BUT w/ CMMG hosting, it’s their ‘home’, so I feel it’s fair that they run the show for the most part. Safety: if it was my ass, my business, and my family on the line, you bet your ass I’d be a safety nazi. Charging for the shoots? I don’t see that as a problem. I have to be honest, I lost a few bucks paying for MODCC materials (and I know others did too), but I don’t mind, I consider that a fair trade for fun and friendships. Their shoots are so much bigger, and their props so much better, so I can only imagine the costs of materials. I’m sure $10 from shooters barely covers their cost, if even.

Jeff and John (and their family and crew) have done a lot for us guys. You might not agree w/ the way everything has progressed, but show a little respect and gratitude if you can.

I’ll be perfectly honest, if I could have my choice, I would like to go back to the old days w/ the old crew, but preferably at a range MUCH closer to my house. I don’t like crowds and I like more trigger time. BUT, all of that is a bit selfish. The CMMG/MODCC shoots are a better operation and it is good to spread the love of guns to more folks. I can’t complain, but that’s just me.

Summary for the ADD impaired:

-I’m still alive
-Miss the old shoots and the guys
-CMMG good
-Complaining, not so good
-Safety good
-Can’t we all just get along???
-The internet sucks and so do petty internet wars

That’s all for now, need sleep so I can work.

Chris

*Edited to add - oh yeah, wanted to say that I'm confident that MODCC would have survived if CMMG hadn't stepped up to the plate. It would have to have evolved some, and who knows if that would have been good or bad. But w/ CMMG it DID evolve into something much larger and you could say that it is better in some ways. Whether you like the old shoots or new shoots better, you have to admit the new ones are more professional, and we have CMMG to thank for that.

Also, don't anyone talk shit on my boy ShamusMcOI, anyone with that many tattoos scares me...
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 8:18:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HKocher:
Also, don't anyone talk shit on my boy ShamusMcOI, anyone with that many tattoos scares me...





Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:55:12 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 8:31:38 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 6:56:15 PM EDT
I asked a couple times before, and never got an answer;

What does MODCC stand for?
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 7:06:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GoGop:
I asked a couple times before, and never got an answer;

What does MODCC stand for?



MissOuri Defensive Carbine Club
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 4:19:18 AM EDT
Thanks D_C. I've tried many times to figure it out, but never came up with anything.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 7:54:06 AM EDT
I've always had a good experience with CMMG as a customer, but I have not yet shot on their range. I'm sure its as good as their customer service.
I want to make this comment toward those that are implying that cmmg stole modcc like some big evil corperation. We live in the United States of America and you have the freedom to buy land, build your own range, and let people shoot on it for free. So quit dumping on cmmg just because you didn't like the last shoot you went to. Some of this thread is reminding me of the stupid crap people did in high school.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 8:21:42 AM EDT
So do these shoots continue? I'm in Columbia, and after many years of not shooting I'm looking to get back in.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 8:23:00 AM EDT
Yeah theres one the 14th at CMMG, you should come out.
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