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Posted: 9/7/2003 7:44:22 PM EDT
I received a lot of inputs from Allan Ensor. If you dont know him, he was the guy who put up the tarp shade for us. Allan is a certified NRA instructor, and a long time Cowboy action, high power rifle, and IDPA competitor. The main point he emphasized to me is SAFETY :

These are his suggestions:

1. All firearms must have the magazine removed, safety ON, bolt open and chamber cleared verified by visual inspection performed by a designated safety officer.

2. When we have personnel downrange, DO NOT touch your guns for any reason.

3. If you need to work on your gun, please remove the gun from the firing line in a safe manner, take it to the left range (25 and 50 yd range) and perform your work there. Upon reentering the right range, show the gun to the designated safety officer for another safety inspection.

4. A safety chamber flag is strongly recommended. We must assume that not everyone is well versed in firearms safety. It is a good idea to require every firearm (except sidearm carried on person) to have a chamber flag inserted at all times. The flag is off the gun only when the shooter is making ready to shoot the course. As soon as the course of fire is completed, the RO must inspect the rifle and insure that the safety flag is in the chamber before the shooter is allowed to return to the firing line. The safety flag is particularly useful for rifles with no bolt hold open capability (AKs, Cetme, G3 etc).


Allan was very nervous seeing guns being moved around freely even when we have people downrange. Muzzle discipline was also violated in some occasions. I personally saw occasions when people picked up a rifle and trying out the sight with the rifle stock up on their shoulders while we had shooters and Range officers downrange. TheBeekeeper and I also found a rifle on a bench with bolt open and a loaded magazine in. This is when we had people downrange. This is a gross violation of common sense range safety.

I also noticed that some rounds fired during the COF did not impact the berm. Some shooters chose to approach the target and shoot at the head from almost the hip level. This caused the muzzle to be elevated and the round missed the berm completely. I knew it because the sound was different and I did not see any impact on the berm.


I think we all agree that SAFETY should be our top priority. No matter how much fun we have, it will be pointless when one of us got hurt, or one of our bullets missed the berm and hit a camper in the nearby park.


Suggestions on how to improve safety:

1. Assigned a designated firing line safety officer whose responsibility is to maintain weapon safety in the firing line. This include stopping any unsafe act committed by participants in the firing line when we have people downrange.


2. We need two Range Officers to follow the shooter who is running the course. Each RO will take turn. When one shooter is running the course, the first RO is following him. The second RO is prepping the next shooter. When the firt RO is back in the line, the next shooter will run the course accompanied by the second RO. This way, we can save preparation time and give the RO some rest in between shooters.

3. The job of recording the results and pasting the targets should be given to another staff. This way the RO can focus on the safety issue better. The way we run it, the RO is doing too many things, starting from calling the shooter to the ready position, recording the time, enforcing range safety when the shooter is running the COF, determining hits and no hits, pasting the targets, and recording the results. The record keeper can immediately visit each target, paste it and record the result on the match roster, as soon as the RO announced that the shooter has completed the COF and the weapon has been secured.

I think by redistributing these tasks, we can reduce the down time, thus allowing more shooters to participate w/o tremendous delay, and allowing more COF to be fired in the day.

I apologize if my suggestions are overly blunt and I may have stepped on some toes. No offense intended. I just want to see everyone enjoy the shoot, have fun, and come home safely. I have my share of range safety violation that caused my old shooting coach, an old crusty Sgt Maj., to chew my ass big time. Allan is an excellent coach, and his approach to correcting mistakes are a lot gentler than any coaches I had in the past. So let us think about his suggestions to determine whether they are necessary. I personally think they are, but you are entitled to your own opinion.

OZ
Link Posted: 9/7/2003 8:10:32 PM EDT
I think these are all excellent ideas. I don't think anyone here will take offense at suggestions of new safety techniques.

However in order to put all these ideas into effect, we need folks to volunteer to help RO.


Link Posted: 9/7/2003 8:16:34 PM EDT
Count me in .... just name the position and I will do it.

It is also a good idea to go over the basic safety rules during the meeting prior to the match.

We may need 2 stopwatches; one for each RO who run with the shooter.

Looks like there are 4 positions to be filled:

2 ROs
1 score keeper & paster (may need another one)
1 firing line safety inspector

Link Posted: 9/7/2003 8:24:23 PM EDT
Well, I figure we'll have a 'pool' of volunteers to work with, since there's a good chance that not every one of us will make it to every shoot. Also I noticed that after the first COF, we usually lose at least a quarter of our shooters due to attrition.

So folks who are willing to volunteer, sign up here, and let's see what we have to work with.

I think that might work better than assigning duties right now. That way, we aren't SOL if one or two of the usual workers can't make a particular shoot.
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 4:20:51 AM EDT
I think we can reduce the attrition rate by running the match faster. I dont think we can run two COF simultaneously since we will need more barricade materials, plus we will need to close all the benches in the range.
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 6:35:17 AM EDT
Great suggestions, Ozy and Allan...

I picked up my new carbine (no magazine & empty chamber), but was called down because someone was on the course...

Whoever, is operating Safety Monitor cannot be shy about yelling "muzzle"...

Saw someone else nearly sweep Beekeeper after completing his COF...
After completing COF - not only clear chamber, but remove mag before returning to firing line...

At any rate, I can volunteer to help in any one of these positions, so count me in...


Link Posted: 9/8/2003 6:47:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2003 6:55:12 AM EDT by MouseGun87]
Allan also made a suggestion for a safety signal. We can use a buzzer or a simple whistle. One long blast = make the range SAFE. Two shorter blast = range is HOT. The safety officer in charge of the firing line can issue this signal.

One more thing, rmdye suggested that the range permit should properly displayed ... say, we can put it up on one of the tent poles. So next time we have Park Rangers come our way, it is there for them to see.

Need to add ...

Cutter's suggestion on how to secure the weapon after finishing the COF is a good one. I noticed how HKocher finished his run by dropping his mag, clearing chamber, locking the bolt back, before he raised his hand to indicate that he is done with the course. I think we should adopt this procedure. We should explain to the shooter that before the shooter clear their weapon, he / she cannot raise his/her hand .... if he does, and the weapon remain unsecured ... the RO will not stop the stopwatch and he will remind the shooters that the weapon needs to be cleared and secured before time is called. I noticed Kpel308 did this when he ran the first match.
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 7:02:12 AM EDT
im afraid i was very guilty of handling my sar during the match i just didnt think. i new it was unload, but just forgot i think i swept a couple people also. next time remind me, please!, saftey was on and no mag but still, i need to be reminded. got use to shoting buy me self. Oz you guys have some very good points we need to do these things. it will get better though. Ronald
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 7:09:15 AM EDT
Damn! I miss one (2, 3, 4) match, and you guys all go "Profile" on me! (Hey, Gunny! My fuckin' rifle is jammed..BUDDABUDDABUDDA!)

Somebody help get me a real job so I can make these things! We've covered all this material before. Complacency kills.
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 8:55:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2003 8:55:47 AM EDT by MouseGun87]
The yellow chamber safety flag can be ordered from the following outfits:

Brownells has them for $4.80 for 3!

www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=16651

I think you will get a better price with C&R FFL.

Creedmoor Sports also has them for $1.50 each ...

www.creedmoorsports.com/C1291.html

Same here too with Champions Choice

www.championshooters.com/safety.htm


May be able to get a price break for quantity order (?)
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 10:32:28 AM EDT
For the next shoot I will be more than happy to run the course along with the competitors and time them. Or I can tape all of the targets up after each run, or both. I had fun timing most of the second run on Saturday. Of course next month will be the only shoot I can do this at because I'll be unable to attend any more for a while after that. Maybe my drill sergeant will fly me back so I can participate
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 10:45:53 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 12:36:58 PM EDT
Ok, but if we want to run this as a proffesional match then we are going to need a heck of a lot more equipment. Like gun racks to hold everyones rifles, a clearly marked area to be consider a part of the "range" (i.e. is the parking lot or the grassy part behind the line included in the don't touch area?)
Remember this is a public range, we can not shut it down so as to strictly conform to what we want.

I am not advocating the wild west here but I think there will be some serious problems in the making.
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 1:05:15 PM EDT
I'll get my noggin thumpin' trying to think of better ways to secure the weapons.
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 1:05:25 PM EDT
Gary has a point.

We don't want to sacrifice safety, but at the same time, none of us (at least I don't) intend or want this to be an IDPA/IPSC/ETC. sanctioned event.

Those groups exist, and cater towards a slightly different crowd. MODCC was always intended to be something completely different.

We need to find a balance between 'international shooting organization' and a free-for-all blast fest.

In the end, we will be seriously limited in terms of manpower and budget, but I think we can still make this happen and keep people interested.

Also, I for one am not seriously concerned about attrition rate or making the shoots run like a well oiled machine.

If folks have to leave for work, or just to get out of the sun, that is their prerogative. Also, if we only have time to shoot two COFs, because folks are busy socializing and shooting .50s and MGs, that is also fine. Let's remember that MODCC is about fun (safe fun) and also about spending time with your shooting buddies.

Safety=good
well oiled machine=well, that one is up for debate...
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 1:22:10 PM EDT
We dont need to run this as a professional match. I dont even know what a professional match looks like. What I do know is there are some basic safety issues that we overlooked so far. Guns being moved around when people are downrange, how do we know that these guns have an empty chamber?

In my opinion, the chamber flag is the easiest way to improve the match safety. This way, everyone in the firing line can visually inspect and verify that a gun does have an empty chamber. However, this can work if and only if every shooter does his/her part by making sure the safety flag in inserted into the chamber. No need for a rifle rack.

As for shouldering a rifle and looking through the sight while there are people downrange .... well, I would be very uncomfortable if someone point a gun toward my general direction. The gun may be cleared and a safety flag is in place, but it will be hard to have a visual on the safety flag from 50+ yards away. I for one will never pick up a gun when there is someone downrange. We are all friends, and I dont think anyone would intentionally harm somebody else. But we all make mistakes, accident does happen. Unfortunately, the worst possible outcome of a firearm accident is death. So safety is our top priority.

I agree with HKocher, I am concerned a lot more about safety than running the match with the highest efficiency possible. But I do think that the ROs are overworked, and we should distribute some of these responsibilities.
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 2:09:11 PM EDT
I agree with both MouseGun87 and HKocher, I see were there both coming from. I do not want this to turn into a full blown competition, I don't make all the shoots, and I come just to meet good friends, like Duke and mousegun. due to me always packing a beeper I never know when I will have to leave. so I like the informal way the shoots are. if I run the first course cool, I don't that's cool also. like I told Mousegun today for complete safety we need to check the rifles somewhere. but that will not set well with everybody. so I did my part today I ordered my self some chamber flags for the next shoot. less than 4 bucks is worth piece of mind. I just don't want to see this turn into a chore and no longer be fun. I mean HKocher, kpel308 and shamus do so much all ready, and there doing a excellent job. I hate to see to much change, if we make it to strict we no longer can have bayoneting. just my thoughts, don't mean much. you guys are doing a great job. Ronald
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 7:53:24 PM EDT
1. Safe.

2. Safe.

3. Safe.

4. Friendly.

5. Informal.

We HAVE to let people know when they are being unsafe, and I want EVERYONE to step forward and say so when a range rule is being violated. Range safety is EVERYBODY'S job.

[weapon off safe, mag inserted, trigger finger upraised]THIS is my safety.[/weapon off safe, mag inserted, trigger finger upraised] DOES NOT FLY HERE. AND YES, I AM YELLING!!!!!!

Even I have violated range safety, and I am ashamed to say that. We have to work together to keep this thing SAFE above all.

I am now done ranting.
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 9:03:12 PM EDT
I just want to clarify that I wasn't breaking range safety when I took this pic. You can see all the guys under the tent looking at me like I'm an idiot, but what they couldn't see then is the bolt of the .50 lying next to the run on Alan's right side. I know this freaked people out but he wanted a "Hollywood" pic of himself behind the .50.

Link Posted: 9/9/2003 3:07:41 PM EDT
FYI: This topic is one reason I rarely shoot at public ranges, and am usually uncomfortable when I do. Heh it is one reason I dont go to Knob Creek anymore.

I occasionally have friends out to my place to shoot. Sooner or later someone always brings new people. We are about as informal as one can get. I have gotten a lot more cautious over the years as a result.

Inevitably the worst offenders are folks, who have money, nice weapons, and not much real unsupervised trigger time, or maybe more importantly lack much weapons handling exp.

That really blew my son away the first time he encountered it(he had only been around military/leos shooters before)here were folks with $2000+ weapons, sometimes CLIIIs and they pretty much had NO safety habits (muzzle awareness, mags in weapons, bolts closed on rounds, firing line discipline, could not clear weapons, no idea of function checks,immediate action, for their own weapons, etc).

In the end some of the new folks have had to pretty much have a lot of practical safety issues explained to them becasue they either have not shot their weapons at all, or very little outside of very controlled ranges. So they really have little idea/practice of how to be safe in a non-supervised range environment. Not a big deal everyone has to start somewhere, or possibly be reminded.

What we have learned out here is just becasue someone has a $5000 .50, or a nice CLIII, and can talk the talk ( we all read the same books dont we ;> ) does not mean they know beans about being safe with it. Sometime they are not even real sure how to shoot it, sight it in etc. :)

Some firearms safety is knowing it, Most is practicing it. Weapons handling is not only being able to hit the target in my family. :)

But a couple of "safety" guys or gals, and a list of do's and dont's should be able to keep things squared away for 10-20 folks with a min of "red tape". It should be fairly easy to stay safe, and have lots of fun with a cooperative group of folks like you have here.

HoG
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 6:42:53 PM EDT
HoG,

Please don't take this thread as a sign of inexperience or lack of proper safety procedure among the members of MODCC.

The fact that we are here in public discussing our own 'short-comings' should indicate just how serious we are about our hobby. No one wants to have their mistakes pointed out to them, and it takes an even bigger man to point out his own mistakes.

We have members at all levels of experience. We also welcome newbies, and hopefully we can share a little of our knowledge and experience with those who are unfamiliar to the world of shooting.

I would say that MODCC II went well, our range safety was far from abysmal. However, I admit that we still need to work to improve the conditions, and to reinforce the rules we already have.

BTW, shooting on your own land is definitely safer, but it's hard to make new friends that way. That being said, you are welcome to shoot with us some day if you feel comfortable about it.
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 6:52:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2003 6:54:34 PM EDT by HKocher]
OKAY, so here it is, straight from the horse's mouth, from the often down, and rarely (never) updated MODCC homepage:


SAFETY

Number one concern of the MODCC is the safety of its members and spectators. With that in mind, repeated safety violations (with flagrant disregard for warnings) are just about the only thing that will get you kicked out of a match with the possibility of being asked not to return to future matches.

Safety rules are basic and easy to follow. If you are a gun owner and you haven’t already been following these rules, it’s about time you started!

1. ALWAYS Assume That The Gun Is Loaded!
Every time you handle a firearm, you should visually inspect the chamber to assure that it is unload. If you hand a firearm to another individual, you should visually show them the empty chamber. Likewise you should visually inspect the chamber of any firearm that is handed to you.
2. NEVER Point A Gun At Something You're Not Prepared To Destroy!
See RULE 1. Always assume that the firearm is loaded and keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction at all times. NEVER allow the muzzle to sweep you or anyone else! Proper muzzle discipline is essential to ensure that in the case of a Negligent Discharge (ND) the only thing damaged will be the shooter’s pride.
3. Always Be Sure Of Your Target And What Is Behind It!
Always be aware of the area around your target. Be conscious of the penetrating ability of rifles and handguns and be sure that you have an appropriate backstop.
4. Keep Your Finger Off The Trigger Until Your Sights Are On The Target!
KEEP YOUR FINGER OUTSIDE THE TRIGGER GUARD! Again, always assume that the firearm is loaded. Almost all Negligent Discharges (ND) are caused by placing the finger on the trigger when you aren't prepared to fire. Keep sure that your finger is off the trigger while reloading, clearing a jam, or drawing and holstering. It's difficult to isolate the trigger finger from the muscles required to hold the gun firmly - they all want to contract together. It can be especially difficult under stress and anxiety. Therefore, THE FINGER SHOULD NOT TOUCH THE TRIGGER UNTIL THE INSTANT YOU ARE PREPARED TO FIRE!


Important Commands and Procedures

We run a "cold" range at all times during a match. This means that ALL rifles are unloaded and on a rack or bench at all times. Handguns may be loaded and holstered, but they must stay in the holster. If you don’t have a holster, they must be unloaded and on the bench/rack. When it is your turn to shoot, bring your unloaded gun to the firing line and wait for the appropriate commands.

Common Range Commands:
“ Load and make ready”: command given by timer to shooter before start of course.
“ Shooter ready”: response given by shooter to indicate that he is ready.
Start signal can be verbal “GO” or an audio buzzer may be used. Shooter must keep weapon in low-ready position until the start signal is given.
“ Unload and show clear”: once the course is complete, you must show an empty chamber to the timer.

Safety Issue Commands:
“ Finger or Trigger”: finger in trigger guard violations. Violator must correct IMMEDIATELY!
“ Muzzle”: the muzzle is sweeping a person or other non-target. Violator must correct IMMEDIATELY!
“ Cease fire”: shooter has done something grossly unsafe and must cease fire and safety weapon immediately.
“ Range is HOT”: shooter is getting ready to run the course. Only the shooter should have a gun in hand. Everyone needs to have their eye and ear protection on when they hear the HOT RANGE command.
“ Range is COLD”: shooter is done and people will be going down range. At this point, the shooter’s rifle is unloaded and we go and score the targets. Again, no one is holding any firearms at this point."

We should review these rules at the beginning of each match. It will only take a minute or so to refresh our memories of the safety rules of MODCC.



I can only blame myself for not going over these rules at the beginning of each match. I was anxious to get the course set up and get folks running. Also, I recognized most of the faces, and knew these folks practiced good safety procedures, but that is no excuse...

Link Posted: 9/10/2003 6:53:32 AM EDT
Next shoot, Chris, lets take 5 minutes to read the Safty section before we start our COF...

It never hurts to remind us, and there may be new people there for the first time who need to hear the ground rules...

I will volunteer to be an RO or Safty RO...

Link Posted: 9/10/2003 3:17:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HKocher:
HoG,

Please don't take this thread as a sign of inexperience or lack of proper safety procedure among the members of MODCC.




Sorry HK

Actually I did/do not think either, perhaps I did not word things very well but email/posts tend to be hard for me to be succinet in. I ramble and go back and edit the meaning/intent right out of my posts sometimes.

I was just chiming in (and I probably should have just kept my "mouth" shut) that I have had safety issues (and probably worse) myself while working with a small group of folks, on private property over the course of the years.

As you say, the fact you guys are discussing, and working the topic just reinforces what good group you have!

I hope no one took offense or thought I was being "snooty". If so I apologize. We all can use a safety lecture/check, from time to time:)

HoG
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 5:22:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2003 5:28:52 PM EDT by MouseGun87]
Safety Briefing before the match is an excellent idea.

Two of the places in MO where regular high power matches are held have surprisingly different approaches to safety. One place, the Pioneer Gun club, tailors its high power program to cater new shooters. The RO always goes through an extensive safety procedure before every match. They dont require chamber safety flags, but they require every gun to be "safe" (magazine out, safety on, bolt open, chamber empty) before being moved to and from the firing line, and this needs to be verified by the RO or another shooter next to you. They have no target pit, so we have to walk 200 yd down range to score targets. When this happen, nobody can touch their gun, period.

The second place offers an environment for experienced shooters. In fact, this is the place where MO State High Power Championship is held every year. Here, no safety briefing, but chamber flag is required. Shooters compete in relays, so there are movements of guns and people almost constantly. The number of shooters involved can be large, say 80 or so divided into 4 relays. There is only a few ROs on duty, so checking every one's weapon after each stage is just not feasible. Here, the chamber safety flag plays an important role. What about new shooters? The organizer normally pair a new shooter with an experienced one, so that they will share adjacent shooting positions. The idea is to allow the experienced shooter to 'guide' the new guy throughout the match.

So, how does this apply to MODCC? I can see two things:

1. Safety briefing as recommended by Cutter75, before each match, it does not matter how much experience our shooters have.

2. Chamber safety flag should be required on all guns when not in shooting position.

Point #1 can work, if and only if every shooter follows it. Thus, we need a 'safety net' just in case one of the shooters forget to follow the prescribed safety rules. With the requirement of chamber safety flag, every shooters in the firing line can function as safety inspectors. A gun not in shooting position w/o the chamber flag in place can be spotted easily by other shooters.

I often see people walking or showing off their guns with the bolt close while there are people down range .... What should I do? I may offend the guy carrying it by asking him to show me his chamber. But if I dont ask ... who knows, the magazine maybe off but there could be a live round still in the chamber. The mandatory use of chamber safety flag answers this question. If we see a gun w/o one, then ask the owner to put the safety flag in place as everybody else does. If he does not have one, we may be able to provide one to him (loan/sell) ....

I understand that our event is more than a simple friendly match. It is also a social gathering where people get to know each other and a lot of "show-and-tell" going on about each other's guns. It will be hard to do a "show-and-tell" without handling the gun itself. If one must pick up and show off his gun to others when a shooter is running the COF downrange ... then the easiest way to allow this while maintaining the best possible safety condition is by requiring the use of the NRA approved chamber safety flag on all guns brought into the firing line outside its case/containers.

I dont mean to take the fun away from this event. It should stay that way, but we also need to address the safety concerns. I believe the procedure outlined here will provide a fair balance between fun and safety.

If you disagree, please provide an alternative procedure with adequate safety net in case an individual error occurs.

Thanks

OZ
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 5:48:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2003 5:51:28 PM EDT by GaryM]
Oz, I am perfectly happy with safety flags and have no problem honoring requests for chamber inspections. So no problem with any of that here. Safety flags are one way we can still play show and tell and not have people freaking out over guns being handled behind the line. I think your solutions do quite well at accomodating the friendly aspects of the meets and still meeting the safety concerns.

Now if I may toss an idea out. Apply these rules to members of MoDCC only when on "our" side of the range. I think we should leave the other side of the range alone. Of course this does not mean closing our eyes if we see something really dangerous going on, but rather letting it operate as it does on a normal day to day basis. This would so that non-MoDCC folk won't be harangued by any of us and if any of us feel the need to take a break away from the others then nobodies toes will get stepped on.
Anyway, I could go on forever but this to be about the right length for a post.
Later dudes!
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 5:59:07 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 6:13:34 PM EDT
Gary,

right on! In the first posting, Allan and I did suggest leaving the left section of the range open, i.e. our more than normal safety procedure need not necessarily be applied there.

This way, we can 'move next door' in case we feel like getting warmed up, confirm zero or just wanting to kick up some dirt downrange.
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 6:19:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
Perfect! Now I need to get a yellow thingy!

Point of order--how come the guy who beat us all like ugly stepchildren knows so much about "the place where MO State High Power Championship is held"--HMMMMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmm??



Link Posted: 9/10/2003 6:49:40 PM EDT
HoG,

No offense taken! We all need to be reminded that we are human and not 'bullet-proof,' that way we can reduce the chance of an accident.

Feel free to speak your mind around here, we all have pretty thick skin.

If you're ever in the area during one of our shoots, you are welcome to drop in and shoot with us.
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 8:23:30 PM EDT
Okay, so here's how it stands...

Stick with existing safety rules, but run a safety refresher for all shooters at the beginning of the match.

Slightly more organized with regards to ROs and duties: more ROs (at least two) with less duties per RO, so that they can focus more attention on safety concerns.

More use of range commands, (ie 'trigger,' 'muzzle,' etc...) and don't be shy about pointing out a safety violation. This goes for all participants.

CHAMBER FLAGS
Oz brought this up before the first shoot, and I thought it was a good idea at the time, but dismissed it because I didn't want to spend the money. This is still a great idea, and we should definitely try to get them before the next shoot. BUT keep in mind, this will cut into the target budget...

The big question is: do we allow a bit of gun handling behind the firing line with chamber flags? Personally, I can live with that as long as we are responsible about it (ie, no sighting down range, muzzle sweeps, etc.), but we need to get a consensus on this.

A couple other thoughts...

A buzzer or whistle will be nice to start and stop the runs.

I don't think the shooter's weapon needs to be cleared before he calls to stop the time, but shooter should safety and clear hands from weapon and yell 'clear' or 'done' to stop time. This way the RO can approach and ask the shooter to drop the mag and show a clear chamber. This might be safer than someone rushing to clear a chamber while time is running.

Shooting over the berms: the only easy way to reduce this risk is to lower the close range targets on the stands. That way a head shot from 3-10 yds will be unlikely to clear the berm.

And as Oz mentioned, the permit should be hung up somewhere during the match. I was looking for the permit when the rangers showed up, but Cutter had already left for work. No harm done, but just something to think about for future shoots.

And as others already covered, our half of the range is under our jurisdiction, the other half is open for other shooters.



That's it for now, what are everyone's thoughts???
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 8:44:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2003 8:45:13 PM EDT by MouseGun87]
Chris,

I think the chamber flag should be the shooter's responsibility. We can consider selling it, or ask one of our sponsors to sell it during the match.

We spend hundreds even thousands of $$ on our guns. I think we can spare a couple more bucks for a simple yet useful piece of yellow plastic for the sake of our safety and others around us.

These safety flags are great for transporting firearms too. Say you are driving to Finger Lake with a truck bed full of guns. A State trooper pulls you over. When he sees your guns with the yellow flag sticking out of the action, wouldnt you say it increases your credibility as a law abiding and safety concious citizen?
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 6:45:02 AM EDT
I have arranged with Jim Loveless to provide us a permit for the rest of the year...

Rather than applying every month, we only need to apply twice a year...

I have 'in hand' a permit for Oct 4th, Nov 1st, and Dec 6th...

In December I will apply for permit for the first 6 months of 2004...

Chris - I will bring the permit on next shoot, and give it to you...

SO WE HAVE PERMISSION FOR MODCCIII, IV, and V...

Link Posted: 9/11/2003 7:20:49 AM EDT
Thanks Glen!
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 7:25:41 AM EDT
well my saftey flags came in today, i have 3 so if i do not bring but one rifle i will have to spares. for somebody to use at the range if they do not want to buy them. that way they can be coverd for the shoot. i also want to thank you guys for the hard work you are doing. Ronald
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 7:49:15 AM EDT
Things are coming together now!
BTW, one more suggestions. If it is true that Anheuser-Busch did provide the plane to fly Sen. Dolan from assignment in Cuba so he could make the veto session (See this thread, ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=32&t=173013
Then we should make A-B products our official AFTER MATCH beverages.
Things are looking good today, lets hope it all comes together.
BTW, Kudra (Jen) and I are taking part in the 21 mile walk from Chesterfield to the Arch in memory of 9-11. Wish us luck and plenty of endorphins...
We will be carrying one of the 3'x5' flags.
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 7:59:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MouseGun87:
Chris,

I think the chamber flag should be the shooter's responsibility. We can consider selling it, or ask one of our sponsors to sell it during the match.

We spend hundreds even thousands of $$ on our guns. I think we can spare a couple more bucks for a simple yet useful piece of yellow plastic for the sake of our safety and others around us.



I agree, but the problem is that someone (or 10 shooters) will forget to buy one or decide they don't need one. That will cause problems. Also, it's stupid to pay $6 shipping for a $2 piece of plastic.

So the best way to make this happen will be for me to buy them in bulk, and sell them at the match to make back the funds. That means I need enough for all shooters (multiple flags for guys who bring multiple guns) plus extras in case someone forgets.

I've don't have a big problem with this, but when you're talking 20+ shooters (for now), and some shooters with more than one gun, and extras for those that lose their flag, etc... A 3 for $4 (with C&R discount) piece of plastic becomes 48 for $64.
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 8:12:31 AM EDT
Chris,

Ron made a good suggestion. I will bring extra safety flags to loan to people who dont have one.

We received many prizes from our sponsors for the 1st and 2nd shoot. Is it possible to request one of the sponsors to donate the safety flag for the next one? These flags will be the property of MODCC. Like you said, they can be loaned to shooters who dont have one.
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 9:49:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MouseGun87:
Chris,

Ron made a good suggestion. I will bring extra safety flags to loan to people who dont have one.

We received many prizes from our sponsors for the 1st and 2nd shoot. Is it possible to request one of the sponsors to donate the safety flag for the next one? These flags will be the property of MODCC. Like you said, they can be loaned to shooters who dont have one.



Let me contact Sableco and see if they would donate the flags...

Link Posted: 9/12/2003 9:06:45 AM EDT
Ok, I just ordered 20 flags from the NRA website. I will bring them to the next meeting. They cost 1.00 each and shipping cost 4.00 for all 20.
So, I will be selling them for $1.20 each, no profit for me, just covers expenses.
Later dudes!
GaryM
Link Posted: 9/12/2003 9:35:00 AM EDT
Thanks Gary, you rule!

I can order another 20 or so and do the same.
Link Posted: 9/12/2003 10:03:54 AM EDT
They have no picture of the NRA safety flag. If this is the same NRA flag that I have, it is made for 30 cal rifle. Too long and large to fit in AR15 action. We'll see. We can always cut it to fit the AR chamber.
Link Posted: 9/12/2003 10:32:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2003 10:33:54 AM EDT by GaryM]
HKocher thanks but it really wasn't much effort.
Mousegun, I hadn't thought about the size, do you think they could be trimmed in diameter to fit inside the bore or maybe cut to length to fill the chamber only?
...ten minutes later...
Allrighty, I tried my NRA type flag in my AR, here is a picture of it. You can't see it from the picture but it does enter the chamber completely. It also stays in place well due to it being bent to a fair degree.
What do you think? Will this work or should I experiment to see if I can get a better fit.
Link Posted: 9/12/2003 10:46:23 AM EDT
Gary,

that works as it is. But I suppose it will be more convenient for people to have the safety flag resides inside the action with only the wing sticking outside.

Your call. This flag was designed to be inserted through the chamber and into the first inch or so of the bore in the .30 cal rifles. For AR15, all we need is for the flag to occupy the chamber, so cutting the stick a few inches shorter may do the trick. I will look at mine and guesstimate how much we need to cut it.

Thanks for your initiative!

oz
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