Posted: 7/14/2011 7:14:51 PM EDT
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Anyone have any recommendations? My wife and I need to get our permits.
Has anyone ever taken a permit to carry class from this guy? If so any reviews? $75 for both of us sounds like a screaming deal, but if the course is bad, I'd rather pay a little more and get better instruction. |
| Can't help you out with the reference, but $75 for the both of you seems like a great deal. Even if you end up disappointed with the course, you're not out much cash, you'll both have your permits, and you can always go get more training. I say take a flyer and give us a good AAR. |
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Haven't heard anything about that instructor, but the website, grammatical errors, and seemingly disorganization would make me a bit hesitant. That, and he apparently doesn't even own a single 1911 pistol!  Also, he seems to be noting that his course qualifies for the Wisconsin CCW permit. I find that interesting since everybody born around ~1980 or later already likely has their MN DNR or WI DNR Firearms / Hunter Safety certification if they took that as a child, and that automatically qualifies people for CCW in Wisconsin. The problem I see most specifically is that $75 for TWO people is an unbeatable price that no SANE Reputable Instructor could reasonably match while recouping their costs for the training. How is he making money unless the guy is pushing through VAST numbers of students, and/or reducing the quality of the training itself??? As I stated, the problem is the price; You mention that you'd rather pay a little more and get better instruction, but most Reputable Instructors charge a notably higher price per person - but their training is most certainly WORTH the additional costs for a MN CCW Permit. The typical rule of thumb is to expect to pay at least $150 per person for higher quality instruction. I've taken many CCW Training courses with other instructors, and thus far the only training I've taken that I thought to be WORTH the money invested was with Sully at Defensive Edge / SLR15. I've taken a course with a southern CCW "Carpet-Bagger" in '03 when CCW first passed - got ripped off.  Took Handguns 1 with Sully, who at the time CUT his course fee by 50% to help get people excellent instruction since most other instructors were doubling or tripling their fees and back-logging their calendars full of classes. Turned out to be one of the best courses I've ever taken, and I've re-taken the course at least 3 or 4 more times over the years. Then I've taken another course with a half-assed instructor who was a friend / associate of Joel "Test-Case" Rosenberg. Waste of $100 and a major waste of my time as well. I took the "Gunshow Utah CCW" course as well, and while it was good to get the paperwork and explanation of the permit application process, and the instructor's sign-off, I feel that there was very little actual instruction aside from surficial, not in-depth discussion of some legal issues involved with CCW. Was it worth the money? I'd say that's debatable. My wife learned a little bit of information about issues relative to carrying and firearm transport across state lines, but even she mentioned that there was little actual 'instruction' on much of anything. She much preferred the Private Defensive Edge courses too. There are a few other up & coming "Carbine", "Tactical", and "Defensive" instructors/companies in the area these days, but until I have personal experience in their instruction, I'll stick with spending my money where I'll get the best value. I think you just can't go wrong with a Sully / Defensive Edge course, or a Rob Pincus course... If I have the choice between getting THE BEST local training available, or buying that $250 Ruger/KelTec/Whatever 380 ACP Pocket Mousegun that most people would only shoot ~300 rounds through over their entire lifetime of owning it... I'll buy the quality training every time! I don't own a 380 mouse-gun anymore, and every time I save up the money for it - I just sign up for training instead. With quality training, I don't need gimmicks, toys, or the latest CCW gun doo-hickey on the market. With quality training, I've come to learn with the right holster you can make a full size 1911 disappear on your hip in all seasons, and you can be highly effective with the guns you've already got. Slow is Smooth; Smooth is Fast. Edited for spelling, and also wanted to mention - if you DO take a course, write up an after action report and let us know how it went, what topics were covered, level of safety on the firing line, where was the class taken, were there any additional range fees, how in depth were certain topics covered, etc... |
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I don't know the guy, but ask yourself if you want training or a certificate?
If you want training, go with a good instructor and a higher level class. If you want a certificate go for it! FYI - I would rather have laws that allowed us to exercise our rights without government sign off. Quoted:
Anyone have any recommendations? My wife and I need to get our permits. Has anyone ever taken a permit to carry class from this guy? If so any reviews? $75 for both of us sounds like a screaming deal, but if the course is bad, I'd rather pay a little more and get better instruction. |
| Personally, I'd want my spouse to get some real-live practice and practical training experience before getting her permit, not some dude telling war stories for bargain basement prices. That kind of thing would only discourage her from carrying in my opinion and is the wrong experience for new CCW candidates. |
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VERY few places in town actually offer TRAINING, but are just a 30min drill at the range and then 4+ hours in a classroom.
As other have said, is it certification or training that you are after? Sully does a great job, but, he is not the only one. I have talked to the instructors at Bills and they are very professional as well. My take on it is this... Get your what you need for CERTIFICATION from the cheapo places that run folks through ever other weekend. Get your TRAINING from someone who knows what they are doing and get the most from your hard earned dollars that way. I took my re-cert from Gary Shade and it was helpful, but, it was not training. I wasn't going to spend $125 just to re-certify when I was already signed up for Tactical Pistol class from Sully later that year anyhow. There was talk about this a while ago and the general consensus is you get what you pay for. 
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Quoted:
If you have a DD214, do you still have to take a class? Yes. You cannot be trusted to exercise your constitutional rights any more than the rest of us can. You must first prove your worthiness to the glorious State of MN by meeting their specific requirements, then you can have your rights back. |
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Here is a recommendation...Do not get your training from this guy. In case you missed it I'll say it again.
DO NOT GET YOUR TRAINING FROM THIS GUY. I have been to exactly two classes. The first was from Joe Penaz AKA Plane Cents. I took his class about five years ago, and I can't honestly say anything good about it. Oh wait yes I can. It fulfilled the states phoney baloney requirements to get my permit to carry. The class was 8 hours of lecture, and storytelling, then we drove to the Burnsville pistol range and paid the range fee for a five minute test. The test was to shoot half a magazine at our target at about 20 feet, safe the weapon, put it down, pick it up, shoot till empty, change mags, and shoot till empty again. We did go over some of the legal aspects , and things that you want to know, when you are faced with the decision to protect yourself with lethal force. Here are some other things I learned that day. 1. Joe likes to talk about how great he is. 2. He has a cabin, and on his property he also built an airstrip. He uses it all the time because he is a private pilot. The best part is he setup a 1000 yard range. He is an excellent shot. 3. Never carry if you are going to be drinking at a bar. I know this should be stated in a class, but don't then tell me how you and your spouse have worked out a signal system, because it happens quite a bit, where you end up in a bar, and have a few drinks and need to pass your handgun under the table to your spouse. 4. Does anybody here need professional bowling instruction? He can give it. How about a custom fit bowling ball? He can drill it for you. 5. Are you a woman, that needs special instruction? Joe is the man for the job. Because of his upbringing as a child, he has some some special insight to a women's needs when it comes to self defence, and making the personal choice of owning a firearm. 6. Let Joe help you make that decision right now, and save you the cost of the class. GET A GLOCK. Everyone should have one. Here let me take the one I have in my shoulder holster, instead of one of the dozens of others that I told you about, and unload it right in front of you so you know I am serious about carrying, and then I'll field strip it in a half a second, to prove that the Glock is the pistol for everyone. 7. The classroom was in his basement, so kick off your shoes and sit three wide on one of two couches, if your lucky. If your not, that steel folding chair will have to do. What is that smell? It could be the basement, or the guys feet that is sitting next to you, with giant holes in his socks. And while hole in the sock guy is sitting next to you he is telling you how you don't need to be here. He is just like Dog the Bounty hunter, and he doesn't even carry. He must of just been there to tell us what we should be doing. 8. It's an all day class so let Joe provide the lunch. His wife will order pizza, and it will get there about 30 to 40 minutes before Joe decides to stop talking so you can go upstairs to eat. Oh great it's from Dominoes...well at least it had ample time to cool off. Now that I choked down two pieces I could sure use something to drink. What? lunch is provided but no drinks. Well can I have one of those warm pops from the 12 pack on the floor? Thanks. 9. There is more...drumset...reloading room/closet...Beam Hits dealer. I think you get the point. Sorry, I got carried away. I really didn't come here to bash Plane Cents. The point I really want to make is, I was not satisfied with this class, and new it the minute I walked out the door. I knew there was more to it than what was being presented. I knew training could be better, but I didn't know where to look. Shortly after I joined this site, I started reading little bits about Defensive edge. It wasn't until a couple months ago that I could fit it into my schedule. The few guys that know me here could probably confirm that I spend a lot of time at work. I took the handgun 1 course. George was the instructor, he is an active duty LEO. Saying he was professional would be an understatement. Did George tell some personal stories during the class? You bet he did, but they were relevant to the material being discussed, at the time. The quality of instruction for $200 was a way better deal than the one you mentioned in the OP. You MAY be able to get better instruction at a three day course at Gunsight for $900 plus air fair, but I'm not sure it will meet the requirements for your MN permit. If you read the class description in the link I provided, it will give you a really good Idea of what to expect, so I'm not going to go through the things I learned at that class. I can give you some highlights though. When they say rain or shine, they mean it, It rained most of the day, and when it finally cleared up the humidity kicked in. Lunch was not provided. I knew exactly what to expect. Until my friends discovered they forgot their lunch. We split two MRE's four ways and had a good time eating in the truck out of the rain. No one went hungry. Another friend that was with had some venison sticks, they were delicious, and he is now welcome along anytime. I learned how to properly draw and hold a pistol. My grip needed a bit of adjustment, and throughout the day George would catch me gripping it wrong and move my left hand slightly. That constant supervision, and knowing he was watching helped to reinforce the skills I was learning. There were several guys there that had taken that class many times before. Every now and then one of them would step in to help me, or point out something I missed. Especially when we were learning to clear jams, and I didn't do things in the proper order. After taking the class I can understand why someone would take it more than once. Just learning the basics is not enough. Practice what you learned and you will only get better. I am hungry for more instruction. So when another Handgun course comes up that fits my schedule I will be there even if it doesn't fit my schedule. I just noticed that his Tactical Carbine class is full. There is a reason for that.... Did I get in on that? You bet I did. |
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Defensive Edge Hands Down, and Twice on Sunday!
Love that term Carpetbagger! Because , most the instructors in MN did not exist till the MN PPA Passed! Sully was teaching classes to civilians before the MPPA.. Most are just folks who think that they are are doing you a great service. In reality they just want forum to spew BS and take your money. One of the Departed's cohorts, did not know a muzzle from the breach of a gun hardly and suddenly he is teaching classes. He demaded empical data about what people will do under stress, like any us will never know till that time really happens.... The Departed's Messiah defined the term of full of fecal material! His class was 6hrs of War Stories, and very little range work! Frankly I felt raped so to speak..... Some tried to use bb guns in a motel room as a range qual. after having the classroom over breakfast at Pukins! On of the occasional user of this forum teaches classes so well, that a student I personally went shooting with after the class could not hit the broad side of target 15 feet. Now, some of you will say that you do not need to shoot like a Navy SEAL. And, that is true.....but geez passing a fellow that can not shoot a revolver with wimp loads at 15 feet....There is no sense to that. One enterprising soul was going to run a mass class using laser guns for ranger qual. But he got called on that idea! One of the best interactions with a local instructor was out at a range. He tried to impress me with his CV. But, when it went to shooting skill well he sure could not seem to shoot as good as he talked! If you want great hands on instruction and coaching to shoot better....Defensive Edge! There are couple guys on this post, that if they were teaching I would heartily say they would do well at teaching. They have a great grasp of things, but I know their work and family demands preclude such undertakings! I have watched Sully take new shooters then have them shooting very well in short order, the last time the wife was kicking her hubby's ass! He makes sure that class moves along, and he makes sure people get attention irrespective of their skill level! It is what it is! Buyer Beware. While people will complain about the law, the simple fact is that we have the ability to carry! We have to live with it. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
If you have a DD214, do you still have to take a class? Yes. You cannot be trusted to exercise your constitutional rights any more than the rest of us can. You must first prove your worthiness to the glorious State of MN by meeting their specific requirements, then you can have your rights back. Well, that sucks..... I guess my Florida CCW, which I've had for over a decade with zero issues, only establishes that I'm a menace. Understood.
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