[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Deer Season Simplification (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 3/15/2008 3:30:04 PM EDT
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If what i've heard is true, we will be able to hunt deer with our AR15's!!!! This doesn't state what calibers will be legal but i've heard that it will be any centerfire of .22 cal or greater. www.dnr.state.mn.us/hunting/deer/simplify/index.html The DSC met twice in December 2007 and January 2008 and examined many components of Minnesota deer hunting regulations. Ultimately, the group agreed on six major recommendations that could simplify the deer hunting seasons: 1. Consolidate the number of deer hunting licenses 2. Consolidate the number of deer hunting zones 3. Simplify validation of deer license at the site of harvest 4. Enhance regulation book 5. Consider alternative deer registration methods 6. Simplify legal calibers |
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I am a bit torn on this. I know a .223 Rem with 68gr HPBT bullet going about 2800fps will down a deer cleanly. I know of enough hunters in states where the 223 is legal for deer that say its just fine. But, on the other hand, I see real value in having a jam-proof lever or bolt gun that I trust 100% for that follow up shot. Which is why I have not purchased a Browning auto or other large caliber semi-auto for hunting. On a related note, I have had hunting days where I couldn't move from one lookout from the tree stand to the other fast enough with a rifle. The darn rat was so close, a handgun would have been more appropriate. Which is why I started carrying a handgun as a backup. For those times when you can't swing your rifle around fast enough. I will admit, there is something so  about stalking deer with an EBR.
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In the last 10 years, I've seen: A deer take a 30-06 round to the vitals and go 200 yards. A deer take a 300 Winchester and go down, spray around a blood circle 50 feet in diameter (the place looked like a slaughter house) and take off. We never found that one. A deer take a 30-30 to the vitals, leak no blood, and go 150 yards. I have no interest in hunting deer with a bullet better suited to prairie dogs and the like. Sure, hunting deer with an AR would be cool, but you lose a WHOLE lot of energy in trade. Deer are not like humans, they don't have the logic in their brain that as soon as they're shot they die. And despite what most people claim, if you hunt deer long enough, you will hit one in a less than optimal spot. Give me 180 grains of 30 cal as opposed to 68 grains of 22 cal anyday. This is actually an area I agree with the DNR on. .223 is not a good whitetail round. And as soon as you allow it, you know some moron is gonna load up a mag with 55gr FMJ Wolf. |
.50 BMG always works 
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We use 223 on dear in WI I shot my first deer with a AR15 last year. One shot and it was down 120 yards. My Dad shot a deer with a Steyr AUG running at a 140 yards. My Dad has a shot a few more deer with AR15s in the past. We use 223 guns for deer drives because our 308 guns (HK91s and FALs) are too heavy sometimes. |
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My argument was not that you CAN'T kill deer with a .223. Obviously you can. Some of the old timers I hunt with used to sneak up on deer in the sixties and kill them with a .22 LR. Works fine as long as you get a head shot. My argument is that a .223 round is less than optimal for killing deer and will result in more deer that get away and turn into wolf food which is not something we need in Minnesota. AR ergonomics aside, why the hell would you use a marginal cartridge when hunting when much better rounds are available? Hunting is not just about shooting stuff, it's about humane wildlife management. |
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I don't think it's a good idea. .223 Rem is marginal especially with 50 grainers. I think that if it changes there should be a mag restriction to 5 rounders. One irresponsible person with a thirty round clip spraying the woods or fields with lead would be very dangerous. We aren't shooting texas mini deer up here. The 220swift or even the 22-250 would be superior to the .223rem. I don't think the ar-15 platform is a wise choice at all. Ar-10 hell ya! .223 caliber has a wide range of rounds and many IMO are not sufficient to ethically drop a 200 to 300 lbs deer. There would be someone shooting varmit grenades.hey This is about what is ethical killing power (scientific fact)and CC was about security of the private citzen and hypothetical fear tactics that had no evidence to support it. Legalizing rifles for statewide use would be a better idea. Military testing proves it is safer than shotgun slugs. What's the difference between my 7mm/08 pistol and 7mm/08 rifle? I can't use a 7mm/08 rifle were I hunt. PNS |
Really 
Maybe we should lobby to state to limit use to single shot rifles and shotguns then, because I've seen irresponsable hunters with lever action rifles and pump shotguns too 
We aren't shooting Mule Deer either, Just to let you know.223 works just fine on Mulies too
You are entitled to your opinion, which is weak at best
The caliber works just fine, it's all about shot placement
Tells me some guys need more practice, more than once a year to sight in
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Thanks dpmmn you saved me from having to type something similar. so I'll just say +1 |
Everything you said +47 
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So out in Western MN where you can see damn near to South Dakota a 30-30 or 30-06 would be safer than a 1 ounce 12ga slug? Having taken a Deer with the following list of calibers I can tell you it is all about shot placement. 12ga slug 20ga slug .357mag .44mag .45-70(Magnum Research BFR) As an example I shot a Buck in WI last season, using a Remington 870 with the Fully Rifled Slug Barrel and Federal Barnes Xpander 2 3/4" 1oz Solid Copper Hollow Point slugs, the buck was 20 to 25 yards away. The fatal shot was a complete pass through, slug hit just behind the right shoulder, liquefied the heart and lungs and exited just behind the left shoulder. A blind man could have followed the blood trail. A blood spatter 12" in diameter at the impact site and a blood trail that was continuous for almost 100 yards. Even after sustaining such a devastating wound that deer ran almost 100 yards. I have also shot deer that fell over dead on impact from the same slugs. There are too many variables that determine what is going to happen when you shoot a deer. Shot placement and caliber are 2 that you can control and I see nothing wrong with using a .223rem with a bullet of at least 64 grains with a soft point or hollow point design. There is a reason that the 64 gr. Super-X® Power-Point® is one of the most popular rounds for deer. |
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It always surprises me to find people here who are in favor of more regulation of firearms use by one branch of government or another. Basing hunting regulations on one irresponsible person with a 30 round mag spraying the woods is no different than basing CCW laws on the one moron that might shoot someone over a road-rage incident. It's not always possible to control someone else's stupidity, so I say the fewer regs on the books regarding guns the better. I'm perfectly capable of deciding what firearm/cartridge combinations are appropriate, thanks. Erik |
The people that do approve of more regulations are usally hunters, they can't seem to see the part of the Second Amendment that says "Shall not be infringed" This is not a slam on all of you hunters, just a fact |
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Sorry, I don't buy that EVERY regulation that is even remotely firearms related is an infringement on the 2nd, and furthermore, isn't "the 2nd isn't about hunting" a popular catchphrase? Ammunition regulations are not about infringing your 2A rights, they are about safety and humane hunting. I would not want someone hunting the flat prairie lands of western Minnesota with a 375H&H that has an effective killing range well beyond the eyesight of mere mortals. There is nowhere out there where you can shoot longer than a mile without crossing some sort of road. Similarly, the prohibition of lead shot over water makes sense as well, as I don't really think that (more) lead in the water is a fantastic idea. I also think that hunting from a moving vehicle is not an infringement on my 2A rights. Remember, hunting != 2A. Hunting isn't a right, it's a priviledge. (look it up, it's not anywhere in the constitution or the BOR). Therefore, you can't cover any firearms hunting regulations are bad simply because they might infringe on your 2A rights. You want to shoot deer with a 30 round AK? Go right ahead. I don't think it's real practical, and on top of that I think the 25 extra rounds are just more weight you have to haul around, but I don't have a problem with it. But for chrissakes, not every regulation dealing with firearms use is an infringement of the 2nd amendment. |
| load up the 30's and go spray up the woods and see how long it takes the AR'sl to get a bad rap from the anti gunners and anti hunters then NOBODY will be able to use them. I am all for the 2nd amend but people need to use thier heads. hunting is a big part of living in mn alot of family tradition. hope we can all keep cool and enjoy the sport for what it is. remember 1 or 2 bad apples is all it takes to ruin it for everyone. GOOD LUCK HUNTING!! |
 thats how i roll. im not bashing people that use .223 for deer hunting, but i personally never would, unless it was JUST while walking through the woods. even then though i dont mind carrying my M1A or my M1 garand. i just feel that theres too much room for a bullet that light to get deflected by a tree branch or that it doesnt provide enough thump. but, thats just my personal opinion. ive shot deer anywhere from 30 yards away to 285 +/- the one at 285 was a dead center hit in the ribs and dropped like a rock. from 30 feet i shot one in the vitals , breaking a shoulder, punching a golf ball sized hole out the other side of the ribs, and he still made it 50 yards through some thick shit. id hate to see how far he had gone if i hit him with a smaller caliber. my shot placement was very good, but he was a tough son of a bitch |
When some "Huntah" wants to trade off a caliber for less capicity, then giving up ammunition capicity is. An informal poll would show that hunters will trade their soul for their precious hunting, while giving up firearms rights. It doesnt matter if you are hunting ducks, geese, deer, coyotes and whatever else that has a season Their though process is if it is not for hunting, why have it or to quote one of the many "What do you need that for?" |
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XD, search for a military test on Rifles vs Shotguns. Slugs actually carry farther after impact with the ground. And a 30-30 is no way a long range round. It is lucky to attain 2000 fps. I have shot slugs that attain that with a heavier bullet. I can take a rifle caliber handgun out to SW MN and shoot deer. 30-06, .308, .280, 7mm/08 .300 win mag. etc. are all made on pistol platform. Whats the difference? So .223 rem or 5.56 is going to be going 2800-2900 MAX out of a 20" colt at 100yds and is barely at 1000 ft/lbs with a 68 gr BTHP in a handload. Put it in a 16" barrel and it is even less. It is all down hill from there. Ballistics tables don't lie. If people think it's a great deer round then so be it. Don't even try to tell me a .223 has better terminal ballistics than a .243, .260, or a .308. That's laughable. FT/LBS kill. Speed alone doesn't. That is a fact Dpmmn what good would a 30 rd mag do for a hunter? Sometimes people keep shooting until they're out of ammo. I have been shot at and am glad that those morons ran out because I may not have come home. That's a real stretch to go from five to seven rounds to single shots. I don't make the laws, but I think the people who are in the know , namely the DNR, should make the laws not the legislature. Tell me how has all the unneccesary laws pertaining to big game hunting affected the Elk, bison, Mulie, & whitetail populations of the west and midwest? Oh thats right they have rebounded from damn near extinction because we have limits to our actions. Why would you want to be out hunting with inferior equiptment? I highly doubt that the exclusion of the .223 has harmed or prevented people from deer hunting. Question for the supporters of .223 rem... Would you support a bullet weight minimum? 40, 50, 55, 60, 64, 68, 75 grains? PNS |
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I'm all for it. People will wound deer no matter what. There really isn't that much difference between a bad hit with an "ought six" and a .223 Rem. A bad hit is a bad hit most times. There are plenty of states where .223 is legal for deer hunting. Do they have major problems with tons of wounded deer every year? |
So what I'm picking up from some of you is, since people can't think for themselves lets make more rules so they don't have to make the choice.  I suppose people should qualify every year with their weapons they will be hunting with.  This caliber regulation change isn't going to effect things much. Yes you will have your random retards that go hog wild. But hunting is about getting meat and if you can't make the shot to get the meat people who can't shoot will go back to whatever they were using before. The first year might mean there are a few more deer that get away because people don't shoot enough to know their gun and how to shoot it accurately. Life goes on. |
Us "Huntahs" are also the vast majority of gun owners. If you need 30 rds to take a deer you have no business hunting. If you do you should practice changing mags then. Sometimes you need to smooth out the image to the public to get things more to your liking. I suppose that pesky firearm safety course is an infringement too. Can't hunt out west generally without one unless you over 60 or something. If you are 28 or younger in MN, you can't hunt deer with a gun without one so is that an infringement? Absolutely not!! Good luck if you think you can go to a committee meeting and say I want to use an assault rifle with a high capacity mag to shoot deer. You aren't going to be recieved well. Having a free pass to do what ever you want to a natural resource is plain stupid. You honestly think you should be able to shoot geese with a rifle because you believe the 2A guarantees it? That's ridiculous. That's how people get shot and that's when you start to hear the anti's saying crap like he deserved it. An Avery prostaff hunter was killed recently when some mental midget shot into his decoy spread with a rifle. Hit him right in the head. But I guess the 2A should allow that too. What do you need that for? The correct answer there is the 2A, because I can and will. Not one hunting law prohibits you from keeping and bearing firearms. PNS |
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Gun restrictions of any kind = bad. Unsafe firearms handling of any kind = bad. Both true. However, More gun restrictions DOES NOT EQUAL safer firearms handling. I don't feel the need to use a 30 round magazine while deer hunting, but arguing that magazines need to be capped at 5 or whatever smacks of anti-gun rhetoric. There is no logical reason to outlaw standard capacity magazines in the deer woods. "Why would anyone need 30 rounds??" is NOT a logical reason. 2A aside -- it's just a matter of personal freedom. |
I guess to take the devils advocate side of 5-7 rounds is the same argument, why do you need 5-7 rounds when in theory you only need 1. A standard capicity magazine for any of my rifles is 30 rounds, wether or not I have 30 rounds in it or not is another story. I shouldn't be subject to rulings made by appointed people of the DNR to tell me what is the maximum amount of ammo I need As far bullet weight go I woiuld say no less than the Winchester Power Point 64 gr . |
| going to be interesting to see if the DNR adopts some of the new ideas. hunting is not a right and has no bearing on the 2nd amendment. alot of states now have firearms restricions on mags and the use of semi auto firearms. there is alot of states that have banned the use of semi auto rifles for any hunting. C'mon people we need to find some common ground here. I think the state took a bold step in the right direction talking to the hunting crowd after all they can just make laws with none of our input. the majority of the people at these meeting will be die hard hunters and them are the people who have the best input. in my opinion you still will not see many assult rifles in the woods they are just out preformed so easily buy a good bolt rifle. going to be very interesting to see what the state comes up with nowthing is law yet. and i dont see the hunters with ethincs shooting assult rifles. |
For The Win! FWIW, it seems we have a troll around here. Recent join date = Check Low Post Count = Check Cloaked Anti-Gun Rhetoric = Check |
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my mags are all 20 rounders, but i keep them loaded at 10 while out hunting. do i even need 10 rounds? probably not. but i like having 2 mags with 10 rounds each = 20 on me. why? what if i get lost? id hate to not be able to fire a few rounds into a log for people to hear my location. not to mention you never know if youre going to run into some nut job out there. i use to carry my G21 concealed while i was hunting, just for the element of surprise in case something very bad happens.... i will say though, i get VERY disappointed at the rifle range when all the hunters are doing their site in. i cant believe how many of them cant even hit the paper at 100 yards with their scoped ought-six kinda scary actually... |
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Hunting regulations and 2nd Amendment rights have no comparison. I don't think one should need 30 rounds to shoot a deer, but I buy my meat in a grocery store, so what do I care. Tell me I need to give up my guns to defend myself, my country and my family, and that is a whole different story. To all the hunters out there: Good hunting! And don't let yourselves be used as pawns against the rest of us who believe the ultimate power of the people to rule should and will always be retained by the people, we legal gun owners and unorganized militia! John Kerry killed a lot of geese. I don't give a fuck how many rounds his magazine tube held. I god-damned guarantee you he gives a fuck how many rounds your gun should be allowed to hold, though... 
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Lets just have a closer look at the data, shall we? The 30-30 Winchester has a standard load of 2200fps for muzzle velocity. This has been the spec for several decades. Linky to Winchester ammo specs... Linky to Federal Ammo ballistics chart ... Hmmm... both manufacturers list 2300+ feet per second with the 150gr bullet. And over 2000fps at 100 yards. As for a slug that goes 2300+ fps from a 12g ... Linky to Federal Ammo ballistics for their sabot slug ... Linky to Winchester Supreme sabot slug specs ... Your claims don't hold up to close inspection. You have less than 10 posts and are already lecturing forum members on how to be a better hunter. And are already calling for a mag limit.  That takes big brass ones... I smell a sheep in wolf's clothing. 
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If you are a hunter in Minnesota and need more than one round, and a caliber bigger than .22 to kill a deer, YOU SUCK. Hunting has nothing to do with your constitutional rights. If I want to carry an RPD with a 200rnd belt into the woods I should be able to, but if I start lettin' off and shoot my buddy in the face I should be held responsible regardless if its a RPD or a Winchester model 70 7mm-08. Unless I'm Dick Cheney.  ETA: I'm Drunk *edit* DId I Meention I'm fucking drunk, kinda like most the mN hunters when they go out with ther oUght 6 and shoot at deer runnin in front of houses, hiways or mstake the dog fer a deer.  or there kid in blaze orangeLEGAL NOTICE: This in no way represents the opinion of any other Arfcom members but me. If it offends you, GOOD. |
FWIW, I never said anything about magazine capacity except you want to shoot deer with 30 rounders go right ahead. I don't have a problem with that. BTW, duck hunters are already limited to the number of rounds the gun can hold. I have never heard anyone jumping up and down about that around here.... Anyway, you're saying that allowing .223, but limiting it to rounds greater than 63 grain bullets is less confusing to some guy that isn't a firearm nut like us than just eliminating .223 altogether? How is limiting grain weight any different than limiting caliber? I thought the whole idea behind 2A support was "don't give an inch"? Look at all the morons out there currently who show up with 7.62x39 in FMJ (which you cannot use for hunting either BTW, has to be SP). Do you really think they'll understand there is a difference between 62 and 64 grains? You guys just want to hunt with ARs. I don't have a problem with that. Get one with a caliber sufficient for deer, and have at it. |
I am in the same boat. Although I can the ease with which carrying a simple EBR into the woods for a deer hunt would 1) reduce my carry weight) and 2) allow for faster follow up shots, I prefer to use a bolt action or lever gun. I like to keep things as "fool proof" as possible when hunting. FWIW: the only time I have used more than one round to take a deer was when I missed with the first shot and was LUCKY enough to get a second later on that day. (which has only happened twice in 20 years) I just don't want "huntahs" dictating the terms and conditions of exercising my RKBA. |
It's DUMBASS LAWS LIKE THESE SUGGESTIONS that made it ILLEGAL for Minnesotans to own Suppressors! It was a law to curb 'POACHING' during the depression!  LIKEWISE, did you read the changes in laws within the past couple years? You can NO LONGER WEAR NIGHT VISION while you're in possession of a firearm! IMHO, that's just another BULLSHIT law. It serves little or no purpose... So, some guy wanting to go from his truck on the 600 yard hike through the woods to get to his tree stand in the early morning darkness can't use NVG to get there now??? He HAS TO use a flashlight which will obviously scare off any deer in the area when they see the light moving & flashing all over in the woods? You can't be stealthy & quiet without sending out TONS of visual signs to the deer that there's a hunter approaching? You use NVG's to get to your stand, 5 hours later you shoot a deer, it's 11 AM and sunny outside, but now you get arrested for having NIGHT VISION on you when you shot the deer in broad daylight? He has NIGHT VISION! He must have shot that deer BEFORE the sun went up! He must have been POACHING! Stupid, Bullshit LAW.
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These are practically identical. Look at the trajectories and remaining energy!! My inspection says you don't know what you are looking at. Both will be in the dirt around three hundred yards. Velocity doesn't kill by itself. When the hell did I say I was a better hunter than you or anyone. Because I think too many people are plain old poor shooters and make up for it in volume of lead shot at the target? Please, I have been hunting and shooting for 26 years. I have a right to my educated opinion. Because I mention that a mag cap would be good, I am anti-gun? How does that stop you from firing a gun? Don't tell my guns that. I am a very strong supportter of the 2A. Because I am a reasonable person I am a sheep?? I think you should buy whatever gun or as many as you want when you want. How does that make me anti? Sheep are people who blindly follow and can't comprehend any other train of thought. Look at how military battles are won, you have to understand your enemy and there tendencies and exploit them. Call the 5 mag a bait which gets you in the door. Take any bill to the lawmakers in this state and try to pass it 100% word for word, original draft, will be amended 5 times and it might make it out of committee. These committes are stacked with anti gun anti hunter legislators (DFL). Concessions will be made, they were made with CCW. This isn't even a passed law. It is still hypothetical. I only have recently logged on because I wasn't really interested in an AR rifle until now. I want to sell my auto 10 ga and build a new coyote rifle. How does that make me a troll? You have to start somewhere. Do I have to answer "+1" to 100 posts before I can comment or have an opinion? I don't care, if you want to use a 30 rd mag, fine. But if you can actually think about the position of the average non gun owner, they are already scared of the EBR so tameing the image down would probably help grease the wheels, educate people, and get laws passed. And I suppose that is just horrible. Yeah, I'd like to think I have big brass ones, too. I agree with you on this one fast351 |
| To be fair, it seemed you were saying "ban all 30-round clips so that no one can spray the woods where we hunt" and that does not seem like 2A enlightened talk at all. All an anti would need to do is cut your quote out from ARFCOM and paste it on their site to say: "see, even hardcore gun owners want to ban 30-rd clips because they will allow you to spray-n-pray" Which, by the way, you know is not true. Thanks for clarifying your point a bit, PNS |
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If I wanted to hunt using my AR-15, here's a little clue... I don't HAVE any mags with less capacity than 30 rounds! I'd load my ammo into a 30 rounder. Would I take 30 rounds? Not likely, but I shouldn't be forced to have to BUY A NEW MAG to meet some bullshit capacity restriction! I don't care if other hunters use what YOU called an "Assault Rifle" with a 30 shot 'CLIP'... I've heard PLENTY of hunters out there pumping rounds off as fast as they can squeeze the trigger! Lever Rifles, Semi-Auto Remington .30-06's (which in all practical definitions is a more 'Powerful Assault Rifle' than an AR-15 in .223), Bolt Action guns... etc. I'm a MODERATELY skilled shooter, and practice several times per year - at least once a month! Compare that with MOST 'HUNTERS' who only shoot MAYBE once or twice per year (Once to 'sight in' or 'check their zero' - and a second time to shoot a deer). I learned years ago, if your bullets are NOT all going through the SAME HOLE in the target, there's room for improvement! Who do you think is going to have BETTER SHOT PLACEMENT? The 'Hunter' who almost NEVER shoots unless there's a deer in sight, or the competitive 'ASSAULT RIFLE' shooter who uses those 30 rounds *NOT TO "SPRAY WILDLY"* but to aim carefully, and shoot slowly, and accurately? Using those 30 rounds to give him more opportunities to PRACTICE and IMPROVE accuracy and follow-up shots and not have to spend most time loading a 6-shot 'Clip' and cycling a bolt... In my hunting party alone last fall. I was shooting a 7.5mm Swiss rifle (with iron sights), and it only took me ONE SHOT to kill my 12-Point Buck. It only holds 6 shots, but I brought 20 with me. Does that mean I was going to load up 20 shots to 'Spray'??? My ONE SHOT stopped my buck about 20 yards away from me. It was a moving target and I shot the deer through the left lung, thru the heart, and through the right lung before it exited the other side! He still ran about 40 yards before he fell, but I'm sure he could've gone further. Caliber has LITTLE OR NOTHING to do with it - shot placement DOES. On the other hand, another person in my hunting party was shooting a Semi-Auto Remington in .30-06! (By all accounts a better round) Just the previous night he was just telling me how his rifle was so much more accurate because of his 3-9x40mm Bushnell Scope. He fired off all the rounds in his mag, and hit an 8-Pointer THREE TIMES! Once in the gut, once in the upper shoulder, and one shot even ricocheted off the deer's RACK! That buck ran over 190 YARDS! Nearly a full 200 yards before we found it tangled up in a bunch of fallen trees... It's about SHOT PLACEMENT. Plain & Simple. And do you think the 'Hunter' who hasn't shot his gun ONCE since the previous November was better at shot placement as the 'Assault Rifle Spraying' guy (me) who went shooting every single month the entire previous year and fired at least 1400 rounds? 120 of which were through his 'Hunting' rifle? On opener day, I heard AT LEAST 150 SHOTS FIRED BEFORE NOON! You can't POSSIBLY imply that the hunters on the neighboring land took over 150 deer in 4 or 5 hours! In fact, that's how I GOT my 12 pointer! The two 'Hunters' on the next property over spotted my buck with a few others, and they opened fire with their .30-30 lever guns!I heard 9 shots, and one HECK of a rustling in the treeline beside the property... NINE SHOTS, and NOT A SINGLE ONE HIT ANYTHING! The deer came flying thru the trees onto our property, and I hit the moving buck with one shot. Patiently waiting until I got a good, clean, clear shot, but I was able to shoot him ACCURATELY and HUMANELY. Likewise, another 'Hunter' who only shoots once a year rattled off 8 shots with a .357 Mag Lever gun at the first button-buck he saw and missed every single shot! I heard the PREVIOUS year he 'ONLY' brought out FORTY ROUNDS (IIRC, one box, so it COULD have been 50 rounds, but I heard 40), and partway through opener day he ran out of ammo! Another guy shot a Doe in the head with a .308, and it fell right where it stood. What matters is SHOT PLACEMENT - NOT CALIBER |
It's comments like this that will get the population around here in a frenzy
I myself would make no compromise for anything, it's not negotiable. I don't and won't even think like that. I don't deer hunt anymore, so I could really care less what caliber you all use or want to use. |
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My current beater AR-15 is a Frankengun built of cheap used parts, but it can still get 3.5" groups at 100 yards with cheap russian WOLF ammo. I don't know what you think, but I think 4" is sufficient to get a shot through vital organs at 100 yards. With a decent bullet type, you can still have a moderately effective round.
If you're practicing for defensive shooting, you can be IMPROVING upon your skills in a variety of areas. Consistent 'defensive' accuracy at varying ranges, shooting while moving, use of cover, quick/efficient reloading, and still not be learning any bad habits. If you're practicing for precision shooting, you can take more time, practice sighting techniques, practice breathing & trigger techniques, as well as shot follow through. There is a difference between shooting activities, and one CAN train for, and isolate the two training styles.
One must also realize the lead is different if the target is moving perpendicular, or at a more oblique angle... Lead the target, but I usually continuously lead the moving target, and adjust for speed/direction changes. Some people like to estimate a lead, move their sights to a lead point, and fire when the target is nearly at their lead point. This method has inconsistent results, and I don't practice or advocate it in any way.
What matters is SHOT PLACEMENT - NOT CALIBER
Velocity, Weight, and Construction have more to do with it than Ballistic Coefficient. You'll also notice that many 'Hunting' taylored bullets often have an INFERIOR ballistic coefficient to target bullets. If the BC is sufficient for a reasonable consistency, that's good enough. You don't need an INCREDIBLE BC rating for the round to be an effective, humane, ethically lethal cartridge. In comparison the 30-06 with BC of 0.475 is far superior to the .45-70 with a BC of 0.20, but I don't think a deer will be any 'Less Dead' (or less ethically dead) at 200 yards if it's shot by a .45-70 which still has sufficiently consistent accuracy to get the job done. It's more a matter of Mass, Velocity, and Construction when we're referring to 'moderate' hunting distances. Likewise, a 69 grain .224 bullet running at 2800 FPS is no laughing matter. You can also use a Federal 60 grain V-Shok load which is often considered adequate for whitetails. As is evident in other people's experience as well as my own observations, one can easily conclude that SHOT PLACEMENT is of paramount importance in the effective killing of any animal. Several of my friends told me the 5.56mm is 'ineffective' when trying to kill insurgents, and yet two of them told me it does a perfectly adequate job - it's all about shot placement! If you hit the central nervous system, the animal (Whitetail or Insurgent) will drop quite consistently. Is it the IDEAL, or OPTIMUM caliber to use? Certainly not. But is it sufficient? Certainly - with adequate shot placement. A deer will drop a lot easier with a .223 in the vitals or CNS than a deer with a .30-06 hole through its intestines. There is no 'Magic Bullet' that will drop all deer reliably, and 'ethically' regardless of where you shoot it... My whole point is SHOT PLACEMENT is of greater importance, and those who DO tend to shoot 'Assault Rifles' do tend to enjoy SHOOTING and therefore practice more often than 'Hunters' who only enjoy the 'Kill' and never practice... A little bit of Irony there. -inuhbad |
You were claiming that the 30-30 is slower than a 12g slug you use. No 12g slug I find commercially available goes faster than a 30-30 or holds its velocity. Please take the time to go re-read your original post.
Um, no, they will not be in the dirt at 300 yards. A 30-30 will reach out to 300 yards and still maintain 500ft-lbs of KE. Back to you, what is your point? That a 30-30 is not good enough to kill a deer? That everyone should use a shotgun with a 12g sabot slug? Where are you going with this thread? Your all over the place and really don't prove a point.
Your most certainly welcome to your own opinion and when you express it with such fervor, you open yourself up to critisism. Something you do not appear to be taking well at all.
It proves how poorly educated you are on the issue. Mag caps have nothing to do with either safety or shooting ability. If you can prove otherwise, by all means, provide some evidence.
According to you. The rest of us see it differently. Restricting capacity based purely on arbitrary metrics is just plain silly.
I find silly capacity limits to be totally unreasonable. I am reasonable person as well. Reasonable is a subjective term.
What door do I need to go in through that you are alluding to? And what does this have to do with military exercises and battles? Your all over the map on this one and not really relating an idea.
What does this have to do with your false claims that your 12g has a higher velocity than a 30-30?
Not once has anyone made mention of a rule of any kind like that. But, being so new to the forum and to begin to lecture others on the value of a mag cap ban is rather sily. Again, what does any of this have to do with your original claim, which I have proven to be false?
I really don't give a rip what the "average non gun owner" thinks about my EBR, as long as they don't try and force me to relinquish it or ban it. Any decision to impose a mag cap ban will not be based on "compromise" or "image". It is based purely on the need of some people to control others arbitrarily based on media hype and perception. It will not be based on facts or reality. Something your posts are lacking.
That appears to be your best quality at this point. |
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I never said that an AR is inaccurate. MOA is accurate. 4" is not very good IMO One hole isn't .75 or .5 , but that is still good shooting. [quote]I've read three reloading manuals. Terminal ballistics are of no concern when you're not shooting further than 200 yards. Any shot beyond 200 yards I'd not bother to take with ANY rifle due to WIND DRIFT concerns, or difficulty in shot predictability, or in some hunting situations - TARGET IDENTIFICATION. Do you know what Terminal ballistics are? It's what happens when a projectile enters a target. Vmax bullet or a NBT aren't very good big game bullets because they are thin jacketed. They will have a tendency to splash or they don't penetrate as they deconstruct too rapidly. You should obvioiusly know that if you have read reloading manuals. If you are afraid to shoot 200 yards you must not be confident with your rifle or you only hunt during gale force winds. Either way thats your choice. That's why a higher BC bullet is good for shooting. Velocity, Weight, and Construction have more to do with it than Ballistic Coefficient. You'll also notice that many 'Hunting' taylored bullets often have an INFERIOR ballistic coefficient to target bullets. If the BC is sufficient for a reasonable consistency, that's good enough. You don't need an INCREDIBLE BC rating for the round to be an effective, humane, ethically lethal cartridge. In comparison the 30-06 with BC of 0.475 is far superior to the .45-70 with a BC of 0.20, but I don't think a deer will be any 'Less Dead' (or less ethically dead) at 200 yards if it's shot by a .45-70 which still has sufficiently consistent accuracy to get the job done. It's more a matter of Mass, Velocity, and Construction when we're referring to 'moderate' hunting distances. Won't be less dead but the "shot placement" will be much more accurate. Match bullets don't expand as well as hunting bullets but they tend to have higher BC and weight. If the wind blows your bullet off of its path because the BC sucks thenI'd say you will have a hard time "placing the shot." BC is vital to accuracy. That is proven fact. You have to have ENERGY remaining in the bullet Higher the BC the less drag therefore more energy, And the bullet has to perform. (terminal ballistics) You can't have a well placed shot without an accurate rifle and shooter. No doubt a well placed shot is important but a well placed shot with a 17 hm2 or 22 lr will do it too. I too have heard people say that. Doesn't mean it is worth a crap though. It has to have the gas to do the job. Where do you draw the line then? a 17 rem will do it so would a .204 ruger, too. You think this is an anti ar rant but I am against .223 as a deer cartridge only. |
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Norse both drop approx. 2 ft at three hundred If fired from a typical level position I fail to understand how I am wrong. Velocity, who cares, a heavier bullet traveling slow can carry as far or farther than a faster but lighter bullet. Both are out of gas. The 30 30 is not a long range cartridge. The reference to a battle plan was made to point out how laws that aren't going to necessarily be popular can at least get started. Too many people think it has to be all or nothing and that is it. It takes strategy to get laws passed look how they pass gas taxes and dedicated funding. Give and take. Sorry, IMO hunting laws don't add up to gun control no one said you can't own one or use one at your leisure, but the DNR can tell you what is legal or not. Gattling guns are not legal so what should be upset by that. I am not. I am not afraid of the DNR. I don't think they are out to get me. And the average non gun owner out there is also a voting constituent they make their voices heard too. You have to work with people one way or another to change laws that is just how it is. Sorry if you feel lectured. |