Posted: 7/22/2016 1:28:33 PM EDT
| They are voting for Hillary? I am sure there have to be some. |
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They are voting for Hillary? I am sure there have to be some. Surely not. There may be some that say they will not vote for Trump, but no one is so deep into the kool-aid that they would actually consider voting for that woman and then tell about such a monumental error in judgement. That would be like getting drunk and having an "accidental" gay encounter, then the next day coming here and saying, "Hey guys, guess what happened to me last night." No way. |
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If you can't vote for Trump there are choices other than Hillary!
Contact me to sign the ballot access petition for Gary Johnson. *prepares for the hate* Facts: - KY is something like R +10 or R +11 on most scales - KY is winner-take-all for electors That means that KY is all but guaranteed to send all of our electors for Trump regardless of how you vote. If you vote for Gary Johnson instead of Trump your vote does matter: - you signal to the GOP that you're tired of RINOs, NY Democrats, and freedom haters as candidates - you can help reach the threshold that the LP needs to get ballot access without petitions - you signal to ALL parties that you want more two candidates - you can be #NeverTrump and #HillaryForPrison at the same time I'm not going to sit here and pretend that Johnson will tick all your boxes. He more pro-gun than any other candidate but not as pro-gun as I am, his VP choice was interesting, he has some views that differ from the LP platform, you might not approve of his views on gays or smoking dope. However Johnson did veto a lot of bills as the governor of New Mexico and ran the state at a surplus. He's got a track record in office, Trump doesn't and Hillary has bad record in office. The ask right now is to sign a ballot access petition. This ensures that Johnson is on the ballot. You have until November to make up your mind to vote for him or not. |
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A vote for anybody other than Trump at this point is absolutely a vote for Hillary. If anyone thinks for a second that a third party candidate will win is dead wrong. It will only take votes away from the Trump camp. Not Hillary.
I technically would have liked someone else as our candidate but at this point Trump is definately better than HRC for sure. I can't believe anybody who calls them self conservative would dare give her a chance to win by not voting for Trump. |
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A vote for anybody other than Trump at this point is absolutely a vote for Hillary. If anyone thinks for a second that a third party candidate will win is dead wrong. It will only take votes away from the Trump camp. Not Hillary. I technically would have liked someone else as our candidate but at this point Trump is definately better than HRC for sure. I can't believe anybody who calls them self conservative would dare give her a chance to win by not voting for Trump. X8700000000000000000000000000 |
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A vote for anybody other than Trump at this point is absolutely a vote for Hillary. If anyone thinks for a second that a third party candidate will win is dead wrong. It will only take votes away from the Trump camp. Not Hillary. I technically would have liked someone else as our candidate but at this point Trump is definately better than HRC for sure. I can't believe anybody who calls them self conservative would dare give her a chance to win by not voting for Trump. This. |
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What if you convince a Bernie supporter who despises Hillary to vote for Johnson? That voter is highly unlikely to vote for Trump. If you believe that a vote for a third party can hurt Trump, then logically you should accept that you can push third party candidates to hurt Clinton.
Is there a factual problem with the electoral college argument? If Trump is polling with a healthy margin in KY, some modest portion of #NeverTrump voters going third party won't change the outcome for Trump/Clinton. Likewise if Clinton is polling with a health margin in say MA, some modest portion of Clinton voters voting third party won't change the allocation of those electoral votes either. The states where a third party vote would actually shit the outcome are states that are genuine swing states, states that allocate electors proportionally (NE and ME), or states that are borderline D or R (like IN). |
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What if you convince a Bernie supporter who despises Hillary to vote for Johnson? That voter is highly unlikely to vote for Trump. If you believe that a vote for a third party can hurt Trump, then logically you should accept that you can push third party candidates to hurt Clinton. Is there a factual problem with the electoral college argument? If Trump is polling with a healthy margin in KY, some modest portion of #NeverTrump voters going third party won't change the outcome for Trump/Clinton. Likewise if Clinton is polling with a health margin in say MA, some modest portion of Clinton voters voting third party won't change the allocation of those electoral votes either. The states where a third party vote would actually shit the outcome are states that are genuine swing states, states that allocate electors proportionally (NE and ME), or states that are borderline D or R (like IN). I've already talked four Bernie Sanders fans to vote for Gary Johnson. I'm going to vote for the Orange Mango, because I'm willing to take the risk of him doing what he says he's going to do, and put in SCOTUS. His pick list was excellent in my opinion. |
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I just want to get this over with. I will vote for Trump because I want to watch it all burn. Hillary if she wins won't do jack shit. With trump I think ww3 will start up fast as he alienates every ally we have and insults every trade partner we have. Hillary won't do jack shit? Not even appoint possibly four Supreme Court Justices? That's what I'm worried about. As for WW3 lol. That's already been started awhile back, the longer we wait the worse it's going to get. "Men grow tired of sleep, love, singing and dancing, sooner than war.” ~ Homer |
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Haha so in a state that is LARGELY Democratic, none of the members here will fess up that they go straight with the party line???
Kind of hard to believe. Why not switch your party to Republican? Because everyone wants to be with the majority or to get a state job or they already have a state job and don't want to be penalized for being an R. |
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Haha so in a state that is LARGELY Democratic, none of the members here will fess up that they go straight with the party line??? Kind of hard to believe. Why not switch your party to Republican? Because everyone wants to be with the majority or to get a state job or they already have a state job and don't want to be penalized for being an R. I love how largely democratic means that because 2 cities in the state make the state largely democratic. For the most part. The rest of the state is red. Similar to New York too and I'm sure other states too. Still in KyThe dems are what these liberal dems would call conservative. I was happy to see a republican governor, shocked I was. Happy my vote mattered for once. Presidential elections suck in this state because really it is pretty much decided. Still I vote because I believe you don't have a right to compain if you don't vote. Remember when the map was almost all red in Romneys loss to Obama. Like a few in the west, few in the northeast and the rest red. I'm talking not about electoral votes won but the actual votes colored in on a map. I remember they showed it after he won. |
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Haha so in a state that is LARGELY Democratic, none of the members here will fess up that they go straight with the party line??? Kind of hard to believe. Why not switch your party to Republican? Because everyone wants to be with the majority or to get a state job or they already have a state job and don't want to be penalized for being an R. I would say probably 90% or greater of arfom members are republicans, probably 9% are libertarians and maybe 1% democrats. |
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You'd be wrong, Kentucky largely votes Red in national elections, but if you want a spot in a local, you had better be Blue. Quoted:
I would say probably 90% or greater of arfom members are republicans, probably 9% are libertarians and maybe 1% democrats. You'd be wrong, Kentucky largely votes Red in national elections, but if you want a spot in a local, you had better be Blue. I was just referring to arfcom members in general. Indicating our forum leans very far to the right. |
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I am a registered Dem. However I cannot remember the last time I voted for a Dem. Hell I even pinched my nose and voted for McCain.
I do really enjoy voting in the primary. Voting for Bernie knowing there was no way he was going to be Pres was entertaining. Just really enjoyed pushing that thorn a little deeper in Hillary's side. 
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I've already talked four Bernie Sanders fans to vote for Gary Johnson. I'm going to vote for the Orange Mango, because I'm willing to take the risk of him doing what he says he's going to do, and put in SCOTUS. His pick list was excellent in my opinion. Quoted:
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What if you convince a Bernie supporter who despises Hillary to vote for Johnson? That voter is highly unlikely to vote for Trump. If you believe that a vote for a third party can hurt Trump, then logically you should accept that you can push third party candidates to hurt Clinton. Is there a factual problem with the electoral college argument? If Trump is polling with a healthy margin in KY, some modest portion of #NeverTrump voters going third party won't change the outcome for Trump/Clinton. Likewise if Clinton is polling with a health margin in say MA, some modest portion of Clinton voters voting third party won't change the allocation of those electoral votes either. The states where a third party vote would actually shit the outcome are states that are genuine swing states, states that allocate electors proportionally (NE and ME), or states that are borderline D or R (like IN). I've already talked four Bernie Sanders fans to vote for Gary Johnson. I'm going to vote for the Orange Mango, because I'm willing to take the risk of him doing what he says he's going to do, and put in SCOTUS. His pick list was excellent in my opinion. It doesn't matter if he would "put in" George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. He can't put anybody in, unless he wins and he can't win. We had all better be thinking about who Hilary will "put in". There are only two possible winners of this election, Clinton and Trump. One of those will be disastrous for gun owners. The only way to stop that is to see that Trump wins this election. I wouldn't vote for Gary Johnson if he put you and me at the top of his Supreme Court list, because I know it will never happen. To think it is possible is to deny reality. I can understand people that would vote for a third party candidate as a protest against the poor choices we have this year, but to actually consider that either of this year's third party candidates has a chance of winning and to think it really matters who is on his Supreme Court list is beyond my comprehension. Nothing that Gary Johnson says, does or thinks is of any consequence, because he can't win. |
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Quoted: A vote for anybody other than Trump at this point is absolutely a vote for Hillary. If anyone thinks for a second that a third party candidate will win is dead wrong. It will only take votes away from the Trump camp. Not Hillary. I technically would have liked someone else as our candidate but at this point Trump is definately better than HRC for sure. I can't believe anybody who calls them self conservative would dare give her a chance to win by not voting for Trump. |
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I will never in a million years vote for Hilderbeast but I have to admit, I'm gong to have a really hard time voting for Trump either. I personally think he is just as much of a lying POS as she is. I don't believe a word out of his mouth and have zero confidence that he has any ability to effectively do anything positive as the President. He has about as much of a chance of making American great again as I have in winning the lottery.
The only small difference between them IMO (and this may be the difference between me voting for him or just staying home)... there is a small chance that he may stick to his word and do some positive things? There is no doubt in my mind that she will try accomplish her campaign promises and none of it will be good for America. |
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I will never in a million years vote for Hilderbeast but I have to admit, I'm gong to have a really hard time voting for Trump either. I personally think he is just as much of a lying POS as she is. I don't believe a word out of his mouth and have zero confidence that he has any ability to effectively do anything positive as the President. He has about as much of a chance of making American great again as I have in winning the lottery. The only small difference between them IMO (and this may be the difference between me voting for him or just staying home)... there is a small chance that he may stick to his word and do some positive things? There is no doubt in my mind that she will try accomplish her campaign promises and none of it will be good for America. Do yourself a favor, find out how to sign the ballot access petition for Gary Johnson. If he's on the ballot and you find that you can't vote for Trump then you'll have another option. If elections roll around and you decide that you vote Trump, then you can do that too. If you're in Louisville, I have petitions and I'll meet you some evening. If not check out http://lpky.org/ for more info on petitions near you. |
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Do yourself a favor, find out how to sign the ballot access petition for Gary Johnson. If he's on the ballot and you find that you can't vote for Trump then you'll have another option. If elections roll around and you decide that you vote Trump, then you can do that too. If you're in Louisville, I have petitions and I'll meet you some evening. If not check out http://lpky.org/ for more info on petitions near you. Well the only problem with that is, I do think a vote for a 3rd party conservative/libertarian/etc. candidate is more or less a vote for Hillary. As much as I hate Trump, I'd still rather have him win then her. I think it will come down to how close it appears to be at the end? If he seems to have a legitimate chance of winning, I'll probably vote for him just to keep her out. If its not even close then I probably won't bother. That said, I may look into Gary Johnson just out of curiosity? I've seen his name mentioned a few times but really don't know much about him? |
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Well the only problem with that is, I do think a vote for a 3rd party conservative/libertarian/etc. candidate is more or less a vote for Hillary. As much as I hate Trump, I'd still rather have him win then her. I think it will come down to how close it appears to be at the end? If he seems to have a legitimate chance of winning, I'll probably vote for him just to keep her out. If its not even close then I probably won't bother. That said, I may look into Gary Johnson just out of curiosity? I've seen his name mentioned a few times but really don't know much about him? https://www.johnsonweld.com/issues Short version - Johnson was the governor of New Mexico, the state ran at a surplus when he was in office, he was known as "Governor Veto". He's got a record in office that you can look at what he did and did not do. |
Agree to disagree 
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https://www.johnsonweld.com/issues Short version - Johnson was the governor of New Mexico, the state ran at a surplus when he was in office, he was known as "Governor Veto". He's got a record in office that you can look at what he did and did not do. Quoted:
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Well the only problem with that is, I do think a vote for a 3rd party conservative/libertarian/etc. candidate is more or less a vote for Hillary. As much as I hate Trump, I'd still rather have him win then her. I think it will come down to how close it appears to be at the end? If he seems to have a legitimate chance of winning, I'll probably vote for him just to keep her out. If its not even close then I probably won't bother. That said, I may look into Gary Johnson just out of curiosity? I've seen his name mentioned a few times but really don't know much about him? https://www.johnsonweld.com/issues Short version - Johnson was the governor of New Mexico, the state ran at a surplus when he was in office, he was known as "Governor Veto". He's got a record in office that you can look at what he did and did not do. It doesn't matter if he turned New Mexico into a flower garden and made every resident a millionaire. He can't win. |
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To be honest, I would rather elect my dogs shit than Hillary. While I am not a huge fan of Trump, he is the lesser of two evils. To be totally honest I haven't cast a vote that wasn't a vote for the lesser of two evils in forever. It's just situation normal for the American political process. Lesser evil voting is destroying our country. |
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It doesn't matter if he turned New Mexico into a flower garden and made every resident a millionaire. He can't win. Can't win because you won't vote for him. j/k I agree that Johnson won't win this election. I do not agree that a vote for a third party is wasted. Take a look at this collection of electoral college predictions, it has several from different sources: http://www.270towin.com/2016-election-forecast-predictions/ . Your vote in KY is already wasted, it does nothing to change the outcome of how our electors will be issued. Same with most of the south and other states. Now if we were in Ohio or Virginia or Pennsylvania, yea you're 100% right. Vote Trump in the battleground states. The fact is that the election is effectively decided in about 2/3 of the country. California is sending all of its electors for Hillary, Texas is sending them all for Trump, and so on. In the deeply red and deeply blue states voting third party is an effective strategy to signal displeasure with the other two parties. A third party candidate getting more votes, enough votes to reach a ballot access threshold, or maybe even getting one elector in a proportional state sends a signal to the D's and R's that you're tired of choosing between RINOs and commies. I'm fed up with only having a shit-sandwich and a turd-burger on the menu. I want third party votes so that new options start getting ballot and debate access. |
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Can't win because you won't vote for him. j/k I agree that Johnson won't win this election. I do not agree that a vote for a third party is wasted. Take a look at this collection of electoral college predictions, it has several from different sources: http://www.270towin.com/2016-election-forecast-predictions/ . Your vote in KY is already wasted, it does nothing to change the outcome of how our electors will be issued. Same with most of the south and other states. Now if we were in Ohio or Virginia or Pennsylvania, yea you're 100% right. Vote Trump in the battleground states. The fact is that the election is effectively decided in about 2/3 of the country. California is sending all of its electors for Hillary, Texas is sending them all for Trump, and so on. In the deeply red and deeply blue states voting third party is an effective strategy to signal displeasure with the other two parties. A third party candidate getting more votes, enough votes to reach a ballot access threshold, or maybe even getting one elector in a proportional state sends a signal to the D's and R's that you're tired of choosing between RINOs and commies. I'm fed up with only having a shit-sandwich and a turd-burger on the menu. I want third party votes so that new options start getting ballot and debate access. Quoted:
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It doesn't matter if he turned New Mexico into a flower garden and made every resident a millionaire. He can't win. Can't win because you won't vote for him. j/k I agree that Johnson won't win this election. I do not agree that a vote for a third party is wasted. Take a look at this collection of electoral college predictions, it has several from different sources: http://www.270towin.com/2016-election-forecast-predictions/ . Your vote in KY is already wasted, it does nothing to change the outcome of how our electors will be issued. Same with most of the south and other states. Now if we were in Ohio or Virginia or Pennsylvania, yea you're 100% right. Vote Trump in the battleground states. The fact is that the election is effectively decided in about 2/3 of the country. California is sending all of its electors for Hillary, Texas is sending them all for Trump, and so on. In the deeply red and deeply blue states voting third party is an effective strategy to signal displeasure with the other two parties. A third party candidate getting more votes, enough votes to reach a ballot access threshold, or maybe even getting one elector in a proportional state sends a signal to the D's and R's that you're tired of choosing between RINOs and commies. I'm fed up with only having a shit-sandwich and a turd-burger on the menu. I want third party votes so that new options start getting ballot and debate access. You are ASSUMING that Ky will go for Trump. I try not to ASSUME anything, especially anything important. Bill Clinton won Ky. twice. I am not taking this election for granted. I am not even ASSUMING that Trump, Clinton and Johnson will all make it to the election in Nov. In any case, just to do my part to prevent a potential disaster, my vote will be for the Republican candidate. |
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https://www.johnsonweld.com/issues Short version - Johnson was the governor of New Mexico, the state ran at a surplus when he was in office, he was known as "Governor Veto". He's got a record in office that you can look at what he did and did not do. Quoted:
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Well the only problem with that is, I do think a vote for a 3rd party conservative/libertarian/etc. candidate is more or less a vote for Hillary. As much as I hate Trump, I'd still rather have him win then her. I think it will come down to how close it appears to be at the end? If he seems to have a legitimate chance of winning, I'll probably vote for him just to keep her out. If its not even close then I probably won't bother. That said, I may look into Gary Johnson just out of curiosity? I've seen his name mentioned a few times but really don't know much about him? https://www.johnsonweld.com/issues Short version - Johnson was the governor of New Mexico, the state ran at a surplus when he was in office, he was known as "Governor Veto". He's got a record in office that you can look at what he did and did not do. Gary Johnson has a lot of issues like throwing away, in a trash can minutes after getting it, an Italian made flintlock pistol from another Libertarian given as a peace offering. Johnson also stated that he believes that a Jewish baker should be forced by the government to bake a nazi cake. He asserted that was his position on Stossels show on Fox Business. http://www.foxbusiness.com/features/2016/03/31/fbn-s-john-stossel-hosts-libertarian-presidential-forum-featuring-johnson-mcafee-petersen.html He may have done some neat things in the past and talk the talk of a Libertarian at times. IMO he does not walk the walk. He will never get my vote. I'll vote for Trump because it means that it's less likely for a Hillary win. Hillary becoming POTUS = Lorreta Lynch or worse to the USSC. The USSC appointment for Scalia and the impending retirement of Thomas and RBG are what the election is all about. |
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Gary Johnson has a lot of issues like throwing away, in a trash can minutes after getting it, an Italian made flintlock pistol from another Libertarian given as a peace offering. Johnson also stated that he believes that a Jewish baker should be forced by the government to bake a nazi cake. He asserted that was his position on Stossels show on Fox Business. http://www.foxbusiness.com/features/2016/03/31/fbn-s-john-stossel-hosts-libertarian-presidential-forum-featuring-johnson-mcafee-petersen.html He may have done some neat things in the past and talk the talk of a Libertarian at times. IMO he does not walk the walk. He will never get my vote. I'll vote for Trump because it means that it's less likely for a Hillary win. Hillary becoming POTUS = Lorreta Lynch or worse to the USSC. The USSC appointment for Scalia and the impending retirement of Thomas and RBG are what the election is all about. Quoted:
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Well the only problem with that is, I do think a vote for a 3rd party conservative/libertarian/etc. candidate is more or less a vote for Hillary. As much as I hate Trump, I'd still rather have him win then her. I think it will come down to how close it appears to be at the end? If he seems to have a legitimate chance of winning, I'll probably vote for him just to keep her out. If its not even close then I probably won't bother. That said, I may look into Gary Johnson just out of curiosity? I've seen his name mentioned a few times but really don't know much about him? https://www.johnsonweld.com/issues Short version - Johnson was the governor of New Mexico, the state ran at a surplus when he was in office, he was known as "Governor Veto". He's got a record in office that you can look at what he did and did not do. Gary Johnson has a lot of issues like throwing away, in a trash can minutes after getting it, an Italian made flintlock pistol from another Libertarian given as a peace offering. Johnson also stated that he believes that a Jewish baker should be forced by the government to bake a nazi cake. He asserted that was his position on Stossels show on Fox Business. http://www.foxbusiness.com/features/2016/03/31/fbn-s-john-stossel-hosts-libertarian-presidential-forum-featuring-johnson-mcafee-petersen.html He may have done some neat things in the past and talk the talk of a Libertarian at times. IMO he does not walk the walk. He will never get my vote. I'll vote for Trump because it means that it's less likely for a Hillary win. Hillary becoming POTUS = Lorreta Lynch or worse to the USSC. The USSC appointment for Scalia and the impending retirement of Thomas and RBG are what the election is all about. Right there +1000000% |
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It doesn't matter if he would "put in" George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. He can't put anybody in, unless he wins and he can't win. We had all better be thinking about who Hilary will "put in". There are only two possible winners of this election, Clinton and Trump. One of those will be disastrous for gun owners. The only way to stop that is to see that Trump wins this election. I wouldn't vote for Gary Johnson if he put you and me at the top of his Supreme Court list, because I know it will never happen. To think it is possible is to deny reality. I can understand people that would vote for a third party candidate as a protest against the poor choices we have this year, but to actually consider that either of this year's third party candidates has a chance of winning and to think it really matters who is on his Supreme Court list is beyond my comprehension. Nothing that Gary Johnson says, does or thinks is of any consequence, because he can't win. Quoted:
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What if you convince a Bernie supporter who despises Hillary to vote for Johnson? That voter is highly unlikely to vote for Trump. If you believe that a vote for a third party can hurt Trump, then logically you should accept that you can push third party candidates to hurt Clinton. Is there a factual problem with the electoral college argument? If Trump is polling with a healthy margin in KY, some modest portion of #NeverTrump voters going third party won't change the outcome for Trump/Clinton. Likewise if Clinton is polling with a health margin in say MA, some modest portion of Clinton voters voting third party won't change the allocation of those electoral votes either. The states where a third party vote would actually shit the outcome are states that are genuine swing states, states that allocate electors proportionally (NE and ME), or states that are borderline D or R (like IN). I've already talked four Bernie Sanders fans to vote for Gary Johnson. I'm going to vote for the Orange Mango, because I'm willing to take the risk of him doing what he says he's going to do, and put in SCOTUS. His pick list was excellent in my opinion. It doesn't matter if he would "put in" George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. He can't put anybody in, unless he wins and he can't win. We had all better be thinking about who Hilary will "put in". There are only two possible winners of this election, Clinton and Trump. One of those will be disastrous for gun owners. The only way to stop that is to see that Trump wins this election. I wouldn't vote for Gary Johnson if he put you and me at the top of his Supreme Court list, because I know it will never happen. To think it is possible is to deny reality. I can understand people that would vote for a third party candidate as a protest against the poor choices we have this year, but to actually consider that either of this year's third party candidates has a chance of winning and to think it really matters who is on his Supreme Court list is beyond my comprehension. Nothing that Gary Johnson says, does or thinks is of any consequence, because he can't win. I don't think you understand what I said. Those people would never vote Trump. They hate republicans. I talked them into voting for the third party candidate over Hillary, because that was their next choice. It's called diverting. |
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I don't understand how anyone can watch Trump for as many hours as I have and not think he's already been the best president we've had in decades.
Trump is a good man, a fighter, a good Citizen and a disciple of the US Constitution. We haven't had one of those since Coolidge I think. I love Donald Trump. His nomination acceptance speech was excellent as was his national security speech. Folks, if we don't have national security and the 'rule of law', we are not a country anymore. It's OVER. A vote for anyone other than Trump is a vote for Hillary and holy crap will that be a disaster for everything we care about. Just the international border issue is enough: if we have no border, we have no country. I will break it down if this doesn't make sense. Hillary's appointments to the SCOTUS will be terrifying. They already don't like the Bill of Rights -- the democrat party IS the party of tyranny and corruption (ask Bernie if you don't believe me....) THEY call the Constitution itself "racist" !! He's not going to start World War 3... China will no doubt be pissed once we compensate for their currency manipulation, but what are they gonna do? Sell their worthless crap to Russians? They might have to because American manufacturing jobs will start to reappear. It will be VERY easy to get Mexico to pay for the wall. And there will be no war in response to the wall. Mexico has abused us for decades. They can pay for the big, beautiful wall just fine. The 'globalists' and the Dark Lord Soros will be pissed, but they can eat shit and die and the world will be much better for it. Frankly, the people who think Trump is bad don't know a damn thing about the US Constitution and the proper roles and duties of the Federal govt or the POTUS. Trump is not a "conservative" nor a "liberal". He's a 'common sense' American (which leaves out "Libertarian" -- the other "open borders" crowd). Some of you people truly frighten me. The world needs a Trump right now. If Hillary wins, the world will enter a Dark Age again. It is very dark in many places already. |
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I despise Hillary and dont like Trump either. only reason i can think of to vote for trump would be to keep that witch out of the white house. Have seen quite a few Obama signs out the last two elections in my county, now i only see 1 Hillary sign so far. Have not seen any trump signs yet. |