[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Training: Less lethal self defense. (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 6/27/2010 9:38:54 PM EDT
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Striker recommends occasional training topics in the hometown forums from the ARFCOM Trainers so I will post an edited version of something I just wrote for a friends newsletter:
Most everyone that gets this newsletter does so because they incorporate a firearm into their daily defensive plan or they plan to in the near future. I want to remind everyone that not all encounters can be legally met with deadly force and that I advocate a less lethal method of self defense be available to everyone in addition to the firearm. There are several different choices, some of which are, but not limited to: 1: Martial Arts Skills 2: Pepper Spray 3: Electronic Devices (ie: Taser C2) 4: Kubotan (palm sized defensive stick) 5: Good quality folding knife (Cold Steel, Emerson, Spyderco, etc) There are other things you can use with great success as well but these are just some ideas to get the wheels turning. Also, just like we see with firearms, getting professional training greatly increases your chances to survive an encounter. If you have questions and are seeking advice from a knowledgeable person who truly wants to help you further your knowledge base, you are reading the right newsletter. I am honored to have been asked to teach some classes with ****** and I look forward to offering some more training opportunities to the readers here. Emails are always answered in a timely manner and there is never a charge for my advice. I’ve gotten some great questions this month so keep them coming. TwoBravo |
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I agree with the need for less lethal options but disagree with the inclusion of a folding knife in this list. I have between 75 and 100 hours of professional defensive knife training and much of it was in a less lethal method, however the state views a knife the same as a gun, a deadly weapon.
If you were to cut someone across the bicep to disable their arm it would be considered grave bodily harm, a shot of pepper spray would carry a lower legal risk. Thanks for posting your thoughts we all need more training and to think about our options. |
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I agree with the need for less lethal options but disagree with the inclusion of a folding knife in this list. I have between 75 and 100 hours of professional defensive knife training and much of it was in a less lethal method, however the state views a knife the same as a gun, a deadly weapon. If you were to cut someone across the bicep to disable their arm it would be considered grave bodily harm, a shot of pepper spray would carry a lower legal risk. Thanks for posting your thoughts we all need more training and to think about our options. I was hesitant to include a good quality folder on the list as well for exactly the same reasons you mentioned. That's part of why it's at the end of the list.  However, if faced with an armed attack and if properly trained in the use and techniques of a knife, I feel that a folder could come in handy and was better mentioning than not, just to get the wheels turning in the mind.
I carry one every day anyway and I know a lot of other folks do as well. In Oklahoma it's kind of rare to NOT find a person with a folding knife of some sorts on their person. I agree 100% with a shot of pepper spray being a lower legal risk. A lot of people will have that folder on them even when they don't have that pepper spray on them. I fall into that category from time to time myself. But, right on, the post is to get people to consider their options and choose one that they feel works best for them, and then to seek out proper training in the use of the chosen items. 
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Less than lethal force?
Sorry, but if I'm faced with mortal danger, I'm going to run or try to kill the one that is coming after me. I can't run so if they press it, I'll do my utmost to see they take their last breath. We once had someone post a link to two guys struggling over a revolver. The one that gained control of the gun then held the other at bay. I'm not an LEO. I'd have shot the SOB instead of holding him at bay. Deadly violence is dynamic and not predictable. But being in deadly violence only has one desirable outcome - survival. Somehow that doesn't add up to using less than lethal force if you are involved. But hey, that's my opinion and worth what you paid for it. 
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Less than lethal force? Sorry, but if I'm faced with mortal danger, I'm going to run or try to kill the one that is coming after me. I can't run so if they press it, I'll do my utmost to see they take their last breath. We once had someone post a link to two guys struggling over a revolver. The one that gained control of the gun then held the other at bay. I'm not an LEO. I'd have shot the SOB instead of holding him at bay. Deadly violence is dynamic and not predictable. But being in deadly violence only has one desirable outcome - survival. Somehow that doesn't add up to using less than lethal force if you are involved. But hey, that's my opinion and worth what you paid for it. Not every self defense situation places you in mortal danger. Because of that, less lethal options should be one of the tools people incorporate into their toolbox. Two days ago a fellow employee had a group of about 7 Hispanic males try to prevent him from carrying out his duties on a clients property by assaulting him with weapons. He was hit a few times with a belt that one person took off of his person and used as a makeshift weapon. I don't think it would have looked good if he would have shot the guy. A Taser, some OC spray, or something along those lines would have not been out of line though. |
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Less than lethal force? Sorry, but if I'm faced with mortal danger, I'm going to run or try to kill the one that is coming after me. I can't run so if they press it, I'll do my utmost to see they take their last breath. We once had someone post a link to two guys struggling over a revolver. The one that gained control of the gun then held the other at bay. I'm not an LEO. I'd have shot the SOB instead of holding him at bay. Deadly violence is dynamic and not predictable. But being in deadly violence only has one desirable outcome - survival. Somehow that doesn't add up to using less than lethal force if you are involved. But hey, that's my opinion and worth what you paid for it. Not every self defense situation places you in mortal danger. Because of that, less lethal options should be one of the tools people incorporate into their toolbox. Two days ago a fellow employee had a group of about 7 Hispanic males try to prevent him from carrying out his duties on a clients property by assaulting him with weapons. He was hit a few times with a belt that one person took off of his person and used as a makeshift weapon. I don't think it would have looked good if he would have shot the guy. A Taser, some OC spray, or something along those lines would have not been out of line though. 7 on one is mortal danger. I'm all for avoiding it but if you can't, then swing the biggest club you have as soon as you can. You hesitate, you can die. |
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Less than lethal force? Sorry, but if I'm faced with mortal danger, I'm going to run or try to kill the one that is coming after me. I can't run so if they press it, I'll do my utmost to see they take their last breath. We once had someone post a link to two guys struggling over a revolver. The one that gained control of the gun then held the other at bay. I'm not an LEO. I'd have shot the SOB instead of holding him at bay. Deadly violence is dynamic and not predictable. But being in deadly violence only has one desirable outcome - survival. Somehow that doesn't add up to using less than lethal force if you are involved. But hey, that's my opinion and worth what you paid for it. Not every self defense situation places you in mortal danger. Because of that, less lethal options should be one of the tools people incorporate into their toolbox. Two days ago a fellow employee had a group of about 7 Hispanic males try to prevent him from carrying out his duties on a clients property by assaulting him with weapons. He was hit a few times with a belt that one person took off of his person and used as a makeshift weapon. I don't think it would have looked good if he would have shot the guy. A Taser, some OC spray, or something along those lines would have not been out of line though. 7 on one is mortal danger. I'm all for avoiding it but if you can't, then swing the biggest club you have as soon as you can. You hesitate, you can die. I'm gonna have to side with Dan on this. If I'm in a situation where I feel that I'm in enough danger to need to pull some form of weapon, its going to be a gun and someone is going to be taking the long sleep. I'll leave the less than lethal BS to the Army  I'm not in some COIN fight.
Yes, I always have a folder on me too. If I'm pulling it to defend myself with, something has gone bad wrong  
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I'm gonna have to side with Dan on this. If I'm in a situation where I feel that I'm in enough danger to need to pull some form of weapon, its going to be a gun and someone is going to be taking the long sleep. I'll leave the less than lethal BS to the Army I'm not in some COIN fight.
Yes, I always have a folder on me too. If I'm pulling it to defend myself with, something has gone bad wrong I too will side with Dan as Chuck did on this one. |
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Having been involved in a lot of what some would call "less than lethal" violent encounters, I can only tell you a foot to the head can be lethal.
If they knock you down, you should be almost sure you'll get kicked in the head. Most of us are not cops and limited to an escalating scale of reactive force. Avoidance is best but if it can't be avoided, and there isn't an out, it's better to have their blood on the ground than your own if they are intent on trying to harm you. If you have to react, you do it quickly and with everything you have if you want to go unscathed. It wasn't too long ago I saw an old man punch my son in the face right before my eyes. I damn near hit my son who was holding me back while I was trying to get to the SOB. His holding me back kept him from beating him to the ground. Even though I had a gun in my pocket, I had every intention of trying to beat him to within an inch of his life. Just because you have a gun in your pocket doesn't mean you have to use it. But you never know when it can escalate so avoid it. |
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If it's 7 on one, I wouldn't mind having one of these in my pocket...... http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f48/patrickcudd/IMG_0789.jpg Rat likes it when it's seven on one.
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Having some less lethal skills is part of a bigger, total defensive package. We can discuss many different scenario's with the when's, why's, and how's of using any level of force, but if you don't have some type of less lethal skills, than you don't have a complete defensive package.
It's been said before and I still think it applies, If the only tool you have is a hammer, then the only problem you can solve is a nail. A gun can only solve a serious bodily injury/ deadly force problem. It's nice to have options and having some type of less lethal skills/tools gives you some more options. USSA-1 |
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Having some less lethal skills is part of a bigger, total defensive package. We can discuss many different scenario's with the when's, why's, and how's of using any level of force, but if you don't have some type of less lethal skills, than you don't have a complete defensive package. It's been said before and I still think it applies, If the only tool you have is a hammer, then the only problem you can solve is a nail. A gun can only solve a serious bodily injury/ deadly force problem. It's nice to have options and having some type of less lethal skills/tools gives you some more options. USSA-1 I suppose if you had your way, all we'd be allowed is less than lethal anyway. Since you, or someone else representing your facility actually went out of your way to speak out against open carry. IMHO, that puts you squarely in the middle of the "enemy of freedom" camp.
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Having some less lethal skills is part of a bigger, total defensive package. We can discuss many different scenario's with the when's, why's, and how's of using any level of force, but if you don't have some type of less lethal skills, than you don't have a complete defensive package. It's been said before and I still think it applies, If the only tool you have is a hammer, then the only problem you can solve is a nail. A gun can only solve a serious bodily injury/ deadly force problem. It's nice to have options and having some type of less lethal skills/tools gives you some more options. USSA-1 If I carry a black jack or sap like PC has above, I break Oklahoma law. If I carry a knife like my Spderco Endura or Emerson CQC7 or my Gerber Mk I, I'm breaking the law. If I carry an ASP or German spring club, I'm breaking the law. If I carry brass knuckles, I'm breaking the law. My 82 yo mother in law is breaking the law carrying the club I made her for keeping dogs off of her when she walks. So what do you propose? I dance with some young punk who wants to throw hands with me? Or get down on the ground and roll with him for a bit? I believe it was Robert Heinlein who wrote: "A armed society is a polite society." The only legal weapon I can carry thanks to the law is a firearm. And I am not going to use it to pistol whip somebody coming after me. I have two choices of weapons outside of a firearm. Those for blunt trauma and those for cutting. And any of those that I would practice with in a martial art such as escrima is denied me by the law. So therefore this conversation is pointless. Primarily because the law DENIES efficient instruments for self protection outside of firearms to the average citizen. And we all know the necessities and consequences if you legally use a firearm for self protection. |
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Less than lethal force? Sorry, but if I'm faced with mortal danger, I'm going to run or try to kill the one that is coming after me. I can't run so if they press it, I'll do my utmost to see they take their last breath. We once had someone post a link to two guys struggling over a revolver. The one that gained control of the gun then held the other at bay. I'm not an LEO. I'd have shot the SOB instead of holding him at bay. Deadly violence is dynamic and not predictable. But being in deadly violence only has one desirable outcome - survival. Somehow that doesn't add up to using less than lethal force if you are involved. But hey, that's my opinion and worth what you paid for it. Not every self defense situation places you in mortal danger. Because of that, less lethal options should be one of the tools people incorporate into their toolbox. Two days ago a fellow employee had a group of about 7 Hispanic males try to prevent him from carrying out his duties on a clients property by assaulting him with weapons. He was hit a few times with a belt that one person took off of his person and used as a makeshift weapon. I don't think it would have looked good if he would have shot the guy. A Taser, some OC spray, or something along those lines would have not been out of line though. 7 on one is mortal danger. I'm all for avoiding it but if you can't, then swing the biggest club you have as soon as you can. You hesitate, you can die. I'm gonna have to side with Dan on this. If I'm in a situation where I feel that I'm in enough danger to need to pull some form of weapon, its going to be a gun and someone is going to be taking the long sleep. I'll leave the less than lethal BS to the Army I'm not in some COIN fight.
Yes, I always have a folder on me too. If I'm pulling it to defend myself with, something has gone bad wrong I'd of just thrown all the change I had in my pocket on the ground, while they were picking it up I'd of done my best jesse owens act
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I'd of just thrown all the change I had in my pocket on the ground, while they were picking it up I'd of done my best jesse owens act
That wouldn't have worked for me with the midget that whipped my ass down in Norman that time.
He'd punched me in the family jewels, had me bent over, head butted me, on my ass and seeing stars before I could say "ouch!". 
I had to bring that up before you did, Nden!!!!!
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to be kind of serious though,
less lethal knowledge/equipment is great in some situations, but you'd better practice like a motherfucker and be a master at it's use if you're carrying knife/club/stick etc with the intention of using it should you ever be in a situation; most people will only get a cursory/intermediate level of training and think they're gtg and never practice it afterward, and they will be gtg for a portion of the population, but there are always that certain percentage that knows more and will fuck you if you try and use it on them, but then the same can be said for a gun, if you're not willing to pull the trigger soon as you pull and aim it, then it better just stay at the house. as for fist fighting/martial arts/wrestling around it's all out or nothing there too, you might do alright fighting all honorable, but you might not, all depends on who you're fighting, and if you come up against or are thinking of fighting multiples, then you better run like mad or be willing to break bones, gouge eyes, bite, kick or pick up a stick and put as many out of the fight as quick as possible cause you can't fight like john wayne did in the movies for very damn long because the more than likely outcome is you're going to have the same done if not worse to you. |
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to be kind of serious though, less lethal knowledge/equipment is great in some situations, but you'd better practice like a motherfucker and be a master at it's use if you're carrying knife/club/stick etc with the intention of using it should you ever be in a situation; most people will only get a cursory/intermediate level of training and think they're gtg and never practice it afterward, and they will be gtg for a portion of the population, but there are always that certain percentage that knows more and will fuck you if you try and use it on them, but then the same can be said for a gun, if you're not willing to pull the trigger soon as you pull and aim it, then it better just stay at the house. as for fist fighting/martial arts/wrestling around it's all out or nothing there too, you might do alright fighting all honorable, but you might not, all depends on who you're fighting, and if you come up against or are thinking of fighting multiples, then you better run like mad or be willing to break bones, gouge eyes, bite, kick or pick up a stick and put as many out of the fight as quick as possible cause you can't fight like john wayne did in the movies for very damn long because the more than likely outcome is you're going to have the same done if not worse to you. This whole thread is unreal. What you said above and that I emphasized is certainly true. And anybody that's been in violent situations BY THEMSELVES would realize it. Selling bullshit to people that don't really know what can't happen can give them false self confidence and get them screwed up or killed. Carrying a gun doesn't make you invulnerable or being able to spin kick over your head doesn't make you a bad ass. We've got way too many naive people that think it does. |
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Having some less lethal skills is part of a bigger, total defensive package. We can discuss many different scenario's with the when's, why's, and how's of using any level of force, but if you don't have some type of less lethal skills, than you don't have a complete defensive package. It's been said before and I still think it applies, If the only tool you have is a hammer, then the only problem you can solve is a nail. A gun can only solve a serious bodily injury/ deadly force problem. It's nice to have options and having some type of less lethal skills/tools gives you some more options. USSA-1 I suppose if you had your way, all we'd be allowed is less than lethal anyway. Since you, or someone else representing your facility actually went out of your way to speak out against open carry. IMHO, that puts you squarely in the middle of the "enemy of freedom" camp.I am with Chuck on this one. |
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to be kind of serious though, less lethal knowledge/equipment is great in some situations, but you'd better practice like a motherfucker and be a master at it's use if you're carrying knife/club/stick etc with the intention of using it should you ever be in a situation; most people will only get a cursory/intermediate level of training and think they're gtg and never practice it afterward, and they will be gtg for a portion of the population, but there are always that certain percentage that knows more and will fuck you if you try and use it on them, but then the same can be said for a gun, if you're not willing to pull the trigger soon as you pull and aim it, then it better just stay at the house. as for fist fighting/martial arts/wrestling around it's all out or nothing there too, you might do alright fighting all honorable, but you might not, all depends on who you're fighting, and if you come up against or are thinking of fighting multiples, then you better run like mad or be willing to break bones, gouge eyes, bite, kick or pick up a stick and put as many out of the fight as quick as possible cause you can't fight like john wayne did in the movies for very damn long because the more than likely outcome is you're going to have the same done if not worse to you. This whole thread is unreal. What you said above and that I emphasized is certainly true. And anybody that's been in violent situations BY THEMSELVES would realize it. Selling bullshit to people that don't really know what can't happen can give them false self confidence and get them screwed up or killed. Carrying a gun doesn't make you invulnerable or being able to spin kick over your head doesn't make you a bad ass. We've got way too many naive people that think it does. even if you are the greatest in what you know when it's for real, nothing is certain till the deal is done, because old chance murphy has a way of showing up at the worst possible times and monkey fucking your certain win when you're a half step from the finish line. |
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Have to stand with Dan with this one, Unreal, Now I look at it this way (me) if you have something in your hands that could hurt me bad or
even kill me or seven wetback with belts, I would kind a be in fear of my life. I think this thread is more for Law enforcement type people and not the Citizen we have other rules we have to follow , this thread right up their with USSA . All respect to you TB but bring a knife to a Gun fight. |
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even if you are the greatest in what you know when it's for real, nothing is certain till the deal is done, because old chance murphy has a way of showing up at the worst possible times and monkey fucking your certain win when you're a half step from the finish line. That gets proved by a broken down old puncher that is getting his ass kicked all over the ring. He might and some times does land that upper cut to the chin that turns the lights out on the champion. The difference between that and the real world is the fight doesn't stop after one of them is down and out. That's when the real damage gets done. And if you don't believe that go back to the convent you were raised in. |
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even if you are the greatest in what you know when it's for real, nothing is certain till the deal is done, because old chance murphy has a way of showing up at the worst possible times and monkey fucking your certain win when you're a half step from the finish line. That gets proved by a broken down old puncher that is getting his ass kicked all over the ring. He might and some times does land that upper cut to the chin that turns the lights out on the champion. The difference between that and the real world is the fight doesn't stop after one of them is down and out. That's when the real damage gets done. And if you don't believe that go back to the convent you were raised in. if somebody hasn't had it happen to them or seen it happen to somebody first hand, all they got to do is watch a mma fight and just imagine if there were no refs in the ring to stop it when the loser taps out or is knockedthefuckout. lots of people get the boots put to them when they're laying on the ground, if you ever find yourself in that situation, about the only thing you can do if you're able to is wrap your arms around your head, pray for a quick end and hope that they break their foot when they kick you in the head. |
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Having some less lethal skills is part of a bigger, total defensive package. We can discuss many different scenario's with the when's, why's, and how's of using any level of force, but if you don't have some type of less lethal skills, than you don't have a complete defensive package. It's been said before and I still think it applies, If the only tool you have is a hammer, then the only problem you can solve is a nail. A gun can only solve a serious bodily injury/ deadly force problem. It's nice to have options and having some type of less lethal skills/tools gives you some more options. USSA-1 I suppose if you had your way, all we'd be allowed is less than lethal anyway. Since you, or someone else representing your facility actually went out of your way to speak out against open carry. IMHO, that puts you squarely in the middle of the "enemy of freedom" camp.I would like more info on this Chuck. If you gotta link shoot it my way. |
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I would like more info on this Chuck. If you gotta link shoot it my way. It was an interview on one of the OKC TV stations. One of their instructors flat out said they were against open carry because you'd let the bad guy know you had a gun.
Most of the stations delete their interviews within 30 days. The 30 days are past so it's not going to be available from the station or on the internet. |
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I would like more info on this Chuck. If you gotta link shoot it my way. It was an interview on one of the OKC TV stations. One of their instructors flat out said they were against open carry because you'd let the bad guy know you had a gun.
Most of the stations delete their interviews within 30 days. The 30 days are past so it's not going to be available from the station or on the internet. Wow thats out of right there. Someone's been exposed to a little to much lead in their day . . . . . .
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I suppose if you had your way, all we'd be allowed is less than lethal anyway. Since you, or someone else representing your facility actually went out of your way to speak out against open carry. IMHO, that puts you squarely in the middle of the "enemy of freedom" camp
Chuck, I'll take your word on this one as I don't live in OK and I was not aware of this. While I would not personally open carry I firearm, I don't have any issues with laws that permit it. Despite my screen name, I am not the owner or even a full time staff member. I'm a senior instructor. Unfortunately, someone with more horsepower than I at USSA made the decision to support the prohibition of an open carry law in OK. I personally don't support that position but as a member of the company I accept my guilt by association but I wish it weren't so. I'm also gonna try to find out who gave that interview. So what do you propose?
I dance with some young punk who wants to throw hands with me? Or get down on the ground and roll with him for a bit? Are you gonna shoot a young punk that wants to throw hands with you? Do you just walk around ready to drop the hammer on the first person that balls a fist at you? I don' think you do or would. I intentionally tried to avoid specifics because each persons situation is unique. In the above situation, yes, the disparity of age can be an important factor when considering the justifiable use of deadly force, but it's gotta be part of a larger picture. I've got two inital thoughts on intermediate options for you though. First is some type OC spray or Mace product (although not being familiar with OK law I'm working under general recommendations.) The second and I think better option for you Dan is a walking cane. It's no secret you have bad knees which you can easily support through some minimal medical documentation if it were ever called into question and a walking cane is an outstanding intermediate weapon. It's nothing more than a baton that's socially acceptable. Some moderate training using the cane as a striking/blocking instrument would give you a powerful less lethal option and it's an option you can take anywhere....Bars, Courts, Churches, Airports, Public Gatherings, etc. Yes, 1 on 7? That's a good shoot. USSA-1 |
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So what do you propose?
I dance with some young punk who wants to throw hands with me? Or get down on the ground and roll with him for a bit? Are you gonna shoot a young punk that wants to throw hands with you? Do you just walk around ready to drop the hammer on the first person that balls a fist at you? I don' think you do or would. Or yes I would. And everybody who throws me a one finger salute!!! 
Seriously, you are kidding, aren't you? They would have to come after me physically before I would shoot them. I don't think I'll shoot an imbecile who wants to give an impression of being bad. It's the bad ones we're talking about, not a pissing match with some kid. I intentionally tried to avoid specifics because each persons situation is unique. In the above situation, yes, the disparity of age can be an important factor when considering the justifiable use of deadly force, but it's gotta be part of a larger picture. I've got two inital thoughts on intermediate options for you though. First is some type OC spray or Mace product (although not being familiar with OK law I'm working under general recommendations.) Mace is ineffectual a lot of the times. I've been sprayed with it and it didn't debilitate me. It made want to hurt the trainer that sprayed me. It's not a viable option for several opponents anyway. The second and I think better option for you Dan is a walking cane. It's no secret you have bad knees which you can easily support through some minimal medical documentation if it were ever called into question and a walking cane is an outstanding intermediate weapon. And it can be taken away and used on the carrier as well. Like I said, if it gets that far, I'm not going to dance, I'm going to end it as quickly as I can. It's nothing more than a baton that's socially acceptable. Some moderate training using the cane as a striking/blocking instrument would give you a powerful less lethal option and it's an option you can take anywhere....Bars, Courts, Churches, Airports, Public Gatherings, etc. I believe you're talking out of your ass for those of us in civilian life, plain and simple. Give us credit. Some of us, most of us as a matter of fact, aren't naive to actual violence and are smart enough to avoid it. And do the right thing if we can't. Yes, 1 on 7? That's a good shoot. USSA-1 |
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Striker recommends occasional training topics in the hometown forums from the ARFCOM Trainers so I will post an edited version of something I just wrote for a friends newsletter: Most everyone that gets this newsletter does so because they incorporate a firearm into their daily defensive plan or they plan to in the near future. I want to remind everyone that not all encounters can be legally met with deadly force and that I advocate a less lethal method of self defense be available to everyone in addition to the firearm. There are several different choices, some of which are, but not limited to: 1: Martial Arts Skills 2: Pepper Spray 3: Electronic Devices (ie: Taser C2) 4: Kubotan (palm sized defensive stick) 5: Good quality folding knife (Cold Steel, Emerson, Spyderco, etc) There are other things you can use with great success as well but these are just some ideas to get the wheels turning. Also, just like we see with firearms, getting professional training greatly increases your chances to survive an encounter. If you have questions and are seeking advice from a knowledgeable person who truly wants to help you further your knowledge base, you are reading the right newsletter. I am honored to have been asked to teach some classes with ****** and I look forward to offering some more training opportunities to the readers here. Emails are always answered in a timely manner and there is never a charge for my advice. I’ve gotten some great questions this month so keep them coming. TwoBravo how is a Knife Less lethal two bravo 
I want to remind everyone that not all encounters can be legally met with deadly force 7 on one is deadly force |
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I suppose if you had your way, all we'd be allowed is less than lethal anyway. Since you, or someone else representing your facility actually went out of your way to speak out against open carry. IMHO, that puts you squarely in the middle of the "enemy of freedom" camp
Chuck, I'll take your word on this one as I don't live in OK and I was not aware of this. While I would not personally open carry I firearm, I don't have any issues with laws that permit it. Despite my screen name, I am not the owner or even a full time staff member. I'm a senior instructor. Unfortunately, someone with more horsepower than I at USSA made the decision to support the prohibition of an open carry law in OK. I personally don't support that position but as a member of the company I accept my guilt by association but I wish it weren't so. I'm also gonna try to find out who gave that interview. So what do you propose?
I dance with some young punk who wants to throw hands with me? Or get down on the ground and roll with him for a bit? Are you gonna shoot a young punk that wants to throw hands with you? Do you just walk around ready to drop the hammer on the first person that balls a fist at you? I don' think you do or would. I intentionally tried to avoid specifics because each persons situation is unique. In the above situation, yes, the disparity of age can be an important factor when considering the justifiable use of deadly force, but it's gotta be part of a larger picture. I've got two inital thoughts on intermediate options for you though. First is some type OC spray or Mace product (although not being familiar with OK law I'm working under general recommendations.) The second and I think better option for you Dan is a walking cane. It's no secret you have bad knees which you can easily support through some minimal medical documentation if it were ever called into question and a walking cane is an outstanding intermediate weapon. It's nothing more than a baton that's socially acceptable. Some moderate training using the cane as a striking/blocking instrument would give you a powerful less lethal option and it's an option you can take anywhere....Bars, Courts, Churches, Airports, Public Gatherings, etc. Yes, 1 on 7? That's a good shoot. USSA-1 You get points for manning up and admitting it anyway. So you personally disagree with the stance taken by USSA on the open carry bill? However, I'll leave you with an old saying that seems appropiate for this occasion: With "friends" like you, who needs enemies? I will state again that to me, its about freedom. You are either for it, or against it. |
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So what do you propose?
I dance with some young punk who wants to throw hands with me? Or get down on the ground and roll with him for a bit? Are you gonna shoot a young punk that wants to throw hands with you? Do you just walk around ready to drop the hammer on the first person that balls a fist at you? I don' think you do or would. Or yes I would. And everybody who throws me a one finger salute!!!
Seriously, you are kidding, aren't you? They would have to come after me physically before I would shoot them. I don't think I'll shoot an imbecile who wants to give an impression of being bad. It's the bad ones we're talking about, not a pissing match with some kid. I intentionally tried to avoid specifics because each persons situation is unique. In the above situation, yes, the disparity of age can be an important factor when considering the justifiable use of deadly force, but it's gotta be part of a larger picture. I've got two inital thoughts on intermediate options for you though. First is some type OC spray or Mace product (although not being familiar with OK law I'm working under general recommendations.) Mace is ineffectual a lot of the times. I've been sprayed with it and it didn't debilitate me. It made want to hurt the trainer that sprayed me. It's not a viable option for several opponents anyway. The second and I think better option for you Dan is a walking cane. It's no secret you have bad knees which you can easily support through some minimal medical documentation if it were ever called into question and a walking cane is an outstanding intermediate weapon. And it can be taken away and used on the carrier as well. Like I said, if it gets that far, I'm not going to dance, I'm going to end it as quickly as I can. It's nothing more than a baton that's socially acceptable. Some moderate training using the cane as a striking/blocking instrument would give you a powerful less lethal option and it's an option you can take anywhere....Bars, Courts, Churches, Airports, Public Gatherings, etc. I believe you're talking out of your ass for those of us in civilian life, plain and simple. Give us credit. Some of us, most of us as a matter of fact, aren't naive to actual violence and are smart enough to avoid it. And do the right thing if we can't. Yes, 1 on 7? That's a good shoot. USSA-1 The way dan worded/quoted this, I have to agree. Anything we carry can be used against us in a fight if someone get the upper hand on you. I try to avoid the situation that I feel could lead to violence, thankfully I've been nothing but successful on that part. I've seen people get hit with a blast of OC/Mace and it did nothing but piss them off. My mom works the front desk of a hotel on the south side, I see almost any type of person imaginable, drunks, dope heads, crack whores, hookers you name it. I've even helped evict some of those people from the property by my self and the only "less then lethal" training I have is from the Marine Corps, but I still took them down and controlled them without a weapon, lethal or non. Honestly, if I'm facing a meth head, id rather give lethal force a try cause non lethal IS going to piss them off. I may be young, but I'm not that dumb. Either way, I gotta agree with dans statment, well worded. |
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Mace is ineffectual a lot of the times. I've been sprayed with it and it didn't debilitate me. It made want to hurt the trainer that sprayed me.
It's not a viable option for several opponents anyway. Yep, you're right about it not being effective on everyone. OC spray has about a 20% failure rate, but that also means that it works 80% of the time. Even if all it does is irritate but not debilitate a threat it still creates a window to either follow up with a more effective attack or attempt to escape. I'll have to disagree with you on the multiple opponents. It might not stop all your threats, but it may reduce the number you have to deal with. And it can be taken away and used on the carrier as well.
That can be said for any handheld weapon. You practice weapon retention, don't you? Your training regimen with the cane would include some retention techniques. It's all about how you train. I believe you're talking out of your ass for those of us in civilian life, plain and simple.
Far more reputable instructors than I have recommended the use of a walking stick or a cane as part of a less lethal defensive package. Having seen the effects of a good ass whipping by a gentlemen using a cane, I fully intend on acquiring one. You asked me for options and I gave you two legitimate ones off the top of my head. You can choose to ignore them, but they are viable choices. I gotta believe your wrong on this one. I don't know of a single firearms/defensive tactics instructor/trainer that supports the postion that if you can't escape a threat to use a gun to solve all your problems. Give us credit. Some of us, most of us as a matter of fact, aren't naive to actual violence and are smart enough to avoid it. And do the right thing if we can't.
This discussion has nothing to do with being naive to violence or your intelligence in first attempting to avoid it. Neither of which was ever called into question. The OP simply posted a statement reminding all of us that having some less lethal options during a confrontation is a good thing and because we all tend to be "gun people," we sometimes forget that. You get points for manning up and admitting it anyway. So you personally disagree with the stance taken by USSA on the open carry bill?
If there was a proposed law to allow open carry in OK and USSA took a position against that law, then yes, I personally disagree with the decision. As I said earlier, I"m gonna try to find out the story on this one. However, I'll leave you with an old saying that seems appropiate for this occasion: With "friends" like you, who needs enemies?
I can appreciate your position and as a potential consumer of our product, if you don't agree with a company's stance on issues, then the best thing you can do is to make your opposition known and not financially support the company or it's products. Kudos to you Sir! USSA-1 |
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I've even helped evict some of those people from the property by my self and the only "less then lethal" training I have is from the Marine Corps, but I still took them down and controlled them without a weapon, lethal or non.
That my friend, is some pretty formidable training! The Marines taught you how to kill in hand to hand combat, yet you didn't kill the threat, you were able to take them down and control them using a lower level of your training. You used the less lethal component of your training and it worked exactly as you needed to solve your problem appropriately. As I previously stated though, every person is unique and not every option is viable for every person. They have to be tailored to the individual and it's nice to have options. Honestly, if I'm facing a meth head, id rather give lethal force a try cause non lethal IS going to piss them off.
If you change the circumstances, I'm going to change my answer. In this situation, if you know it's a Meth user that's high, then I agree with your decision. USSA-1 |
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I've even helped evict some of those people from the property by my self and the only "less then lethal" training I have is from the Marine Corps, but I still took them down and controlled them without a weapon, lethal or non.
That my friend, is some pretty formidable training! The Marines taught you how to kill in hand to hand combat, yet you didn't kill the threat, you were able to take them down and control them using a lower level of your training. You used the less lethal component of your training and it worked exactly as you needed to solve your problem appropriately. As I previously stated though, every person is unique and not every option is viable for every person. They have to be tailored to the individual and it's nice to have options. Honestly, if I'm facing a meth head, id rather give lethal force a try cause non lethal IS going to piss them off.
If you change the circumstances, I'm going to change my answer. In this situation, if you know it's a Meth user that's high, then I agree with your decision. USSA-1 Umm... have you ever met/faced a meth addict? The few I have seen, you couldn't tell if they were high or not. They almost always look the same if they have been using for a while. |
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Umm... have you ever met/faced a meth addict? The few I have seen, you couldn't tell if they were high or not. They almost always look the same if they have been using for a while. I see some of them about 4 or so days a week, you can definantly tell when they're tweakin; of course they all look like they been blown out of a cannon after a while, but they still move like an out of balace top when they're wound up. |
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I gotta believe your wrong on this one. I don't know of a single firearms/defensive tactics instructor/trainer that supports the postion that if you can't escape a threat to use a gun to solve all your problems. WTF did I say that? Don't put words in my mouth or meanings in my posts that aren't true. 
The three modes of self defense I carry with me all the time are my brains, my feet, and my gun. The gun is a last resort if the other two fail me . Frankly, you can take your self defense training with a cane to a nursing home and sell all of it you want. Because I'm not buying any of it. Or anybody esle here. I doubt very seriously you've ever had an ass kicking that put you in the hospital for some period of time. Or taken a beating so bad your own family walked right past you in the ER and didn't recognize you. If someone wants to kick my head in and tries, I'm going to do my best to see that he doesn't even it kills him. I don't give a rat's ass if I use a knife, my fists, my boots, or a gun. Ndenway put it pretty well. If you don't or can't fight back, curl up and cover your head and hope the guy runs out of steam. Maybe you'll come out with a limp and a few scars if you're lucky. This whole thread is bullshit. Someone wants to inflict severe harm on an innocent individual, me or my loved ones, FUCK 'EM. Let them meet the reaper. I don't care if they get 125 gr of lead or get cut three ways - long, deep, and continuous. |
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USSA-1,
I don't know about Georgia but in Oklahoma a person has the right to use lethal force even if a weapon is not involved if; 1. A disparity in numbers exists. 2. A disparity in ability exists. 3. A disparity in size exists. There can always be mitigating circumstances, but... if a 19 year old thug goes after a 80 year old man lethal force can be used. If a 230lb man is beating a 100lb woman, lethal force can be used. If 3 guys attack one, lethal force can be used. In Oklahoma one can also use lethal force anywhere a reasonable person would feel secure if they meet the requirement that they believed that there life was in jeopardy. And if you're beating me that's how I'm going to feel. Another example; I am attached and the bad guy manages to get me in a half nelson or similar hold. Under this circumstance I can use deadly force because my life is now in jeopardy. Also, In Oklahoma if you break into my house you are bought and paid for. I am automatically justified in using lethal force. Now when it comes to a weapon it can be anything in your hands. If you come at me with a belt and buckle, baseball bat, tire iron, chain saw, big stick, large rock, car, box cutter, scissors, screw driver, hammer, chair, etc.. You just might get shot. So, in Oklahoma it pretty much comes down to if you can't walk away because you being actively attacked, you can defend your self with deadly force and you are not required to retreat.. If your organization came out against the open carry bill in Oklahoma, your name is mud and you should just give up and walk away.. We don't fuck around here... Andy.. |
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WTF did I say that? Don't put words in my mouth or meanings in my posts that aren't true.
Then by all means, please clarify your position... If you can't run away and the threat level has not risen to your level of "mortal" danger, then what options do you suggest? Frankly, you can take your self defense training with a cane to a nursing home and sell all of it you want. Because I'm not buying any of it. Or anybody esle here.
You asked for less-lethal options that are available to you under OK law because you were under the impression that you had no legal options. I offered two suggestions, OC and a walking stick. They are viable options even if you choose to ignore them, others may not. I doubt very seriously you've ever had an ass kicking that put you in the hospital for some period of time. Or taken a beating so bad your own family walked right past you in the ER and didn't recognize you.
Nope, can't say that I have, but not for the lack of people trying. I train, I've got skill, and I've been lucky....so far. What is taking a beating that severe supposed to mean? I know what it means to me, but what does it mean to you? If someone wants to kick my head in and tries, I'm going to do my best to see that he doesn't even it kills him.
Stomping someones head in = deadly force. I agree with you there and I would do my best also. Someone wants to inflict severe harm on an innocent individual, me or my loved ones, FUCK 'EM. Let them meet the reaper.
Assuming that your definition of severe harm is the same standard as death of serious bodily injury then again, I agree F'm. The issue is what about a threat that doesn't rise to that level? Using your example of the old man that punched your son. By your own statement your were going to "beat him to within an inch of his life" and you attempted to do so. Fighting or hand to hand skills are one form of less lethal skills. Even your own example shows that you used or attempted to use less lethal means to deal with a threat without shooting him. All the OP is saying, and I agree with him, is that it's nice to have options other than a gun. Even you have used some less lethal forms of defense at one time or another, but you now call the idea of having those skills and this thread complete bullshit. I don't give a rat's ass if I use a knife, my fists, my boots, or a gun.
Agree, The courts have ruled that if deadly force is justified, the manner in which the force is applied is of no consequence. So there's no disagreement here. USSA-1 |
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WTF did I say that? Don't put words in my mouth or meanings in my posts that aren't true.
Then by all means, please clarify your position... If you can't run away and the threat level has not risen to your level of "mortal" danger, then what options do you suggest? Frankly, you can take your self defense training with a cane to a nursing home and sell all of it you want. Because I'm not buying any of it. Or anybody esle here.
You asked for less-lethal options that are available to you under OK law because you were under the impression that you had no legal options. I offered two suggestions, OC and a walking stick. They are viable options even if you choose to ignore them, others may not. I doubt very seriously you've ever had an ass kicking that put you in the hospital for some period of time. Or taken a beating so bad your own family walked right past you in the ER and didn't recognize you.
Nope, can't say that I have, but not for the lack of people trying. I train, I've got skill, and I've been lucky....so far. What is taking a beating that severe supposed to mean? I know what it means to me, but what does it mean to you? If someone wants to kick my head in and tries, I'm going to do my best to see that he doesn't even it kills him.
Stomping someones head in = deadly force. I agree with you there and I would do my best also. Someone wants to inflict severe harm on an innocent individual, me or my loved ones, FUCK 'EM. Let them meet the reaper.
Assuming that your definition of severe harm is the same standard as death of serious bodily injury then again, I agree F'm. The issue is what about a threat that doesn't rise to that level? Using your example of the old man that punched your son. By your own statement your were going to "beat him to within an inch of his life" and you attempted to do so. Fighting or hand to hand skills are one form of less lethal skills. Even your own example shows that you used or attempted to use less lethal means to deal with a threat without shooting him. All the OP is saying, and I agree with him, is that it's nice to have options other than a gun. Even you have used some less lethal forms of defense at one time or another, but you now call the idea of having those skills and this thread complete bullshit. I don't give a rat's ass if I use a knife, my fists, my boots, or a gun.
Agree, The courts have ruled that if deadly force is justified, the manner in which the force is applied is of no consequence. So there's no disagreement here. USSA-1 If the threat does not rise to the standard of death or serious bodily injury, walk away... I will never get into a hand to hand fight. Ill either shoot the bad guy or walk away and call the cops. Hand to hand can become hand to knife at the speed of light and I would have given up all the advantages of a firearm. Andy.. |
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Andy,
I'm with you on all your examples. I don't disagree and I'm sure GA law is very similar to OK law. Any type of weapons the threat may be using can be reasons for deadly force. I don't think anybody here has any real difficulty determining when deadly force is justified, but I think the OP was promoting the idea that if you have a situation where the deadly force standard has not been met yet and avoidance is not an option. What are your options? You talked about getting put into a half nelson or some other similar hold then you'd be in fear of your life and DF would be appropriate. Under those circumstances, I agree with you. But wouldn't it be nice to have some other force options that might have prevented you from getting caught in that hold to begin with? Look, we all realize the seriousness of using DF. Including the investigations and potential wrongfull death civil lawsuits, whether successful or not in the aftermath. The number one thing most instructors do agree on is escape and avoidance because of these type issues. Having some less lethal skills/tools creates more opportunity to escape and avoid a deteriorating situation before it gets to a DF level. I am simply agreeing with the OP statement. If your organization came out against the open carry bill in Oklahoma, your name is mud and you should just give up and walk away..
If they did, then they will suffer the financial consequences and I will try to find out for certain, but right now that position is unconfirmed. I won't be walking away though, some good though provoking discussions around here. USSA-1 |
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how is a Knife Less lethal two bravo
I want to remind everyone that not all encounters can be legally met with deadly force 7 on one is deadly force It would depend on how it was used and the skill level of the user. I wasn't talking about it being a replacement for a firearm or firearms skills. I was thinking along the lines of a disabling "cut and run" use than a cut or stab in a lethal manner. |
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Andy, I'm with you on all your examples. I don't disagree and I'm sure GA law is very similar to OK law. Any type of weapons the threat may be using can be reasons for deadly force. I don't think anybody here has any real difficulty determining when deadly force is justified, but I think the OP was promoting the idea that if you have a situation where the deadly force standard has not been met yet and avoidance is not an option. What are your options? You talked about getting put into a half nelson or some other similar hold then you'd be in fear of your life and DF would be appropriate. Under those circumstances, I agree with you. But wouldn't it be nice to have some other force options that might have prevented you from getting caught in that hold to begin with? If I can't walk away, my life is threatened and deadly force can be used. I'm not a cop. I do not need to detain anyone or attempt to stop them from hurting them selves. Look, we all realize the seriousness of using DF. Including the investigations and potential wrongfull death civil lawsuits, whether successful or not in the aftermath. The number one thing most instructors do agree on is escape and avoidance because of these type issues. Having some less lethal skills/tools creates more opportunity to escape and avoid a deteriorating situation before it gets to a DF level. That's just it, if I need to escape I have justification in using deadly force to do so and LL is not necessary. I will escape by using lethal means, overwhelming force. Lethal being knife or firearm. I have taken knife courses but let me make it clear it was not a less lethal class. It was on the use of edged weapons in conjunction with weapons retention NOT how to stand and duke it out with a thug. I know enough about knife fighting to know to stay away from it. I think this is where we have a difference of view in that I consider the use of a knife the same as a firearm as does Oklahoma law and I will not stand and fight it out with someone if I can walk away. Someone can get into a lot of trouble both physically and legally in the use of this type of Less lethal. I am simply agreeing with the OP statement. USSA-1 |
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If they did, then they will suffer the financial consequences and I will try to find out for certain, but right now that position is unconfirmed. I won't be walking away though, some good though provoking discussions around here. USSA-1 Thanks for trying to lend some back up in this thread. I wish more of the facts would have been stuck to then trying to derail you on USSA political grounds. That being said, I think it was Mike (I got kicked off of Top Shot first for GOOD reason) Seeklander who I saw giving that interview on the news. |
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If I can't walk away, my life is threatened and deadly force can be used.
I'm not a cop. I do not need to detain anyone or attempt to stop them from hurting them selves. I agree with this, but do you think that if you can't walk away that automatically equates to your life being threatened? Not sure if this is what you meant, just trying to clarify. I think this is where we have a difference of view in that I consider the use of a knife the same as a firearm as does Oklahoma law and I will not stand and fight it out with someone
No, I agree with you on this. I've got plenty of knife time under my belt and I understand the point TwoBravo was making about the "cut and run" strategy and it can be a valid technique, but I don't thing society is ready to accept the use of a knife in a less lethal capacity. USSA-1 |
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Okay, Just spoke with Mike at USSA.
Mike did an interview in which he was asked about the proposed Open Carry Bill while it was making its way through the legislature. Mike (paraphrasing) stated that we (USSA) don't recommend carrying a firearm openly as you give up certain tactical advantages during a confrontation by openly carrying the firearm. He never voiced any opposition to the Open Carry Bill or positioned USSA against the passage of such a bill. USSA-1 |
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Okay, Just spoke with Mike at USSA. Mike did an interview in which he was asked about the proposed Open Carry Bill while it was making its way through the legislature. Mike (paraphrasing) stated that we (USSA) don't recommend carrying a firearm openly as you give up certain tactical advantages during a confrontation by openly carrying the firearm. He never voiced any opposition to the Open Carry Bill or positioned USSA against the passage of such a bill. USSA-1 Yes he did, just read your post . . . . . . |
| Umm... Ill leave this for each person to decide but at this website, Mike Seeklander states that "Certainly I'm a strong supporter of the second amendment and carrying guns in general," Mike Seeklander, U.S Shooting Academy, said. "From a training perspective though, we're wary of open carry." The whole "wary" idea I guess could go a few different ways. |
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Yes, I can see how that quote could be wrongly interpreted, but I think this is the important part of the quote "From a training perspective though"
Mike's position is that he's concerned with the tactic of openly carrying firearms not with the legality of Open carry. USSA-1 |
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USSA-1, I don't know about Georgia but in Oklahoma a person has the right to use lethal force even if a weapon is not involved if; 1. A disparity in numbers exists. 2. A disparity in ability exists. 3. A disparity in size exists. There can always be mitigating circumstances, but... if a 19 year old thug goes after a 80 year old man lethal force can be used. If a 230lb man is beating a 100lb woman, lethal force can be used. If 3 guys attack one, lethal force can be used. In Oklahoma one can also use lethal force anywhere a reasonable person would feel secure if they meet the requirement that they believed that there life was in jeopardy. And if you're beating me that's how I'm going to feel. Another example; I am attached and the bad guy manages to get me in a half nelson or similar hold. Under this circumstance I can use deadly force because my life is now in jeopardy. Also, In Oklahoma if you break into my house you are bought and paid for. I am automatically justified in using lethal force. Now when it comes to a weapon it can be anything in your hands. If you come at me with a belt and buckle, baseball bat, tire iron, chain saw, big stick, large rock, car, box cutter, scissors, screw driver, hammer, chair, etc.. You just might get shot. So, in Oklahoma it pretty much comes down to if you can't walk away because you being actively attacked, you can defend your self with deadly force and you are not required to retreat.. If your organization came out against the open carry bill in Oklahoma, your name is mud and you should just give up and walk away.. We don't fuck around here... Andy.. AMEN brother +1 I weight in at 168lbs if a any body larger than 300 lbs comes at me or 2 or more come at me I and throwing 45acp hp at them . my life is worth more to me than there life is worth to me it just that simple |