Posted: 9/2/2006 12:53:41 PM EDT
| Does anyone have one of those thingy-ma-bobs that measure the OGIVE or whatever it's called? I'm starting to reload my own .308 ammo for my bolt gun and everyone tells me I need this info to get the most accuracy. |
| I have one that I use along with a Stoney Point Chamber All tool. Using these two tools will tell you exactly how close or far away your bullet is from engaging the rifling. It will also help measure throat erosion. It's great for setting up your dies too. There are cheaper ways of doing the same thing but if you're trying to build accurate rounds these two tools work very well together. |
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Josh, I use an RCBS tool that gives the throat measurement and can also be used to set your bullet depth. Sometimes measuring the depth of the ogive will not give the best measurement of accuracy - different bullets have different lengths. The only way to find the most accurate round is to find the best bullet/powder/primer for accuracy, then fine tune seating the bullet depth and other methods, i.e. neck sizing.... I'm an old school powder man - I've been using IMR 4895 and Win 742 only for the 308. I'm sure there are better powders. Heres how to develop the best load. Buy 100 rounds of premium unloaded brass. Work up 5 or 10 different loads. Group each load. Determine the best grouping. Keep in mind a good 300 yd group might go to hell at 600, depending on the bullet. So set your your most probable distance and group at that range. Once you've found the best load, then try neck sizing and bullet depth settings. Once that is found, then comes the real nitty-gritty of reloading. Turning the necks, adjusting the overall length of the brass, making the primer holes uniform, measuring the volume and weight of each separater case.... It can get real tricky and tedious. For instance, depending on the rifle, seating the bullet off the lands .01" can be super accurate or crappy. Setting it at .1" can be better. You only find out by working at it. I've got a box of premium 308 reloads worked up for a rifle. All the brass has been weighed and meaured, machined as uniform as possible, etc. I reload them in sequence to keep the wear on the cartridges as uniform as possible. I've also found that switching between bullet brands at the same range session can cause a good load to shoot badly. For instance, Barnes bullets have a bronze content, are harder than Nosler jackets. The friction of the bullets changes according to what type of copper deposits on the bore. The Noslers shot like hell after the Barnes bullets but did a whole lot better after the bore was cleaned. It's fairly easy to find a great load in an accurate 308. It takes a bit of work to fine that load to even greater accuracy once you've found it. If I can help, let me know. I'm sure you want to develop a couple of different loads for your rifle - one short distant, subsonic load, the other a good all around load. |
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I've got the two tools you'd need to get the info you're after. The first is the Stoney Point Chamber thingee mentioned before. The second is the Stoney Point Ogive Measurer thingee that clamps onto your calipers (I think it's called a comparator). Anyway you could borrow both of mine for a few weeks if you wanted, I won't be loading .308 for a while, and even if I did I probably have all the measurements already recorded somewhere anyway. For what it's worth, in my opinion the whole process of trying to seat your bullets so that they're close to the lands is highly overrated. The powder and bullet combo will determine about 95% of your accuracy. The seating depth, primer, case, and everything else is almost insignificant. You can spend hours sorting cases, weighing cases, precisely seating every bullet etc... But I'd say you'll be better off making 100 rounds of match grade good enough ammo for an hour's work then you will be making 10 rounds of super benchrest ammo with everything precisely measured for an hour's work. You start getting rapidly diminishing returns in how much time you spend reloading. YMMV If you want to borrow the tools, send me an IM... |
I agree with that statement. Like usual, scottstre made a great point.  But as far as bullet seating depth, that depends mostly on the rifle and the powder/bullet combination. Pressure curves can change a lot, all depending on the variables. A cheap way out of using the different tools, like the Stoney Point tools like scottstre uses, is the Hornady Micrometer bullet seating die. I've set the bullet out pretty far and forced the bolt to seat the bullet to a length short enough to chamber. That is my "starting point". I then use the micrometer bullet seating die to start adjusting the bullets deeper into the case by .005". It's worked out pretty well. I never bought the Stoney point tools because you can't use it in an M1A. It's probably much better for a bolt than the RCBS tool I use.  |
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Ok. I haven't shot any rounds yet. I have 60 rounds full length sized, trimmed to 2.005 and primed. Just waiting to drop powder and go to the range and find what charge it likes the best. I have a buddy who made a big deal about the ogive and headspace and seating off the lands and all that crap which is why I asked. I guess I'll try to do it without and see if I need to even mess with it. Thanks guys. |
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Use the acuaracy loads out of the siera reloading manuals....... when your ability requires a better load than that then you can mess with that other silly shit...... Dont get me wrong I'm sure all the fancy tricks help but unless you can go compete with benchrest shooters right now i think you'll be spining your wheels....... If your capable of hanging with the benchrest boys then yea you need to jack with the all the tricks my .02 |
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Find your best bullet/powder combination for accuracy, then proceed from there trying to improve the group size by bullet seating depth. You can buy a micrometer set up from Hornady that will measure the seating depth on your seating die. That is the most important item to have in finding the BEST seating depth. It just screws into the top of the seating die. All I am worried in is throat erosion. As the barrel throat wears, I'm going to have to seat the bullets longer. When accuracy starts going south, I load a new round long, use the bolt to seat the bullet at max length, then start backing the bullet off the lands .005 at a time until I get the best grouping. I'll use 5 shot groups. I may have one flyer in each group that won't count. But if I shoot 4 shots touching, I'm stopping right there! Probably with even three.  Your question will be twofold, which round is best with and without the can, which subsonic round will be best with the can. You have another variable which can really complicate the process.  The use of extruded powder vs ball powder is going to the real question with the can! |
ACman, I think you are basically right, it isn't worth the effort in most cases. But having seen the rifle and the trouble Josh has gone too, I think it may well be worth the effort to find how "particular" his rifle is. Probably all the reloading "silly shit" has diminishing returns in relation to effort. But with what Josh is wanting out of his rifle, it may be worth exploring. |
I see what your saying dan but if you can't shoot better than 1/2" groups every time with the acuracy loads...... how are you going to know if youve done anything to make it better that was my point..... Don't get me wrong Josh may be a way better shot than that....... i'm just saying if you cant do that every time or better how are you going to know your making a diffrence....short of putting it in a good vise.... I can't do it everytime so i don't mess with trying the fancy stuff since my ability to the rewards wouldn't be noticed.......... |
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ACman, you do one thing different each time you go to the range. That way you know for sure the effects of reloading methods. You also shoot more often, become more attuned to your weapon, a better marksman and shooter in the long run! But hell, it ain't going to make much difference if you can put 3 shots into a half inch at 100 every time you shoot. Then you have to try putting 3 shots into 3" at 600! That way you learn to dope wind, elevation between target and shooter, dealing with mirage... you get the idea! I had one shot at a bull elk in Colorado at 400 yds and took him down. And a cow too. I was shooting uphill and into a 10 mph wind at the same time. If I hadn't spent a lot of time shooting the metallic silhouttes at the OKC Gun Club, I never would have made two excellent shots like that. I even went so far as to use 27" and 18" blue strips (elk and deer size)at 300 yds to measure distances. One range session with those aids and my son still has a damn good meaure of distance with deer - even after 9 years! I've seen him kill a doe at 350-375 yds standing. He held the cross hairs on top of the head (it was looking at us) and turned it over on its back with the chest hit! The problem with most of us is we shoot at set distances too often. If you are shooting off a bench at 100, 200, and 300 and doing well, it doesn't mean you will do well standing or kneeling while hunting! |
Yea dan...... I'm the guy who hangs out at the known distance ranges.......          ask jeff how many ranges we've been to when he comes down to shoot with me this is my "bench" most of the time and all it does is hold shit i'm not using   Not once have you ever heard me ask where a range is .... i find them useless i look for places to go shoot to find out what i can do....... I never claim to be the best shot cause i know i'm not but i do know how to shoot and what i'm capable of Sorry Josh but i can't help but argue with dan ..... since he got JN ran off |
Good stuff Acman.
ACman, did I specifically mention YOUR name? Or are you just looking for an argument?  I agree with you that shooting in most situations is dynamic - ever changing from one scenario to another. My point was that you can gain only so much by shooting only set distances. No slant or insult intended toward you or anyone else. If you take it as such, you're more paranoid than I thought!
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We have to go to the place in the first couple of picks bout 5hrs from OKC ....... bastards shut down the close to home place  It'll be after the first of the year before i make it back deer season is upon us.......Well that is unless the rivers up and then we can travel upriver and shoot from on high down the river  (beleive thats picture7 the one above where the targets are marked)thats some fun shit..... but will probably be unacesible for a year if we don't get some serious rain  spent half the day diging the boat out the last time we tried to go not fun....... |
He's slacking off as of late though.  Badlands is freaking awesome. We shot mostly on the known distance range that has a berm every 100 yards out to 1k. The UKD range had 5 random placed steel targets between 360 and 920 if I remember right. The bunk house is pretty nice too. Bobby the owner and Mike D. were very generous with their time. Both really know long range shooting also. I will be back next year for the 4 day sniper school for sure. |
A friend and I drove down a couple of months ago to check it out. That 1k target was crazy. My buddy (younger eyes) said " come on man, you can hit it". I told him that since his M1A has a $500 scope and mine is open sights I wouldnt be much competition! |
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I've never shot past 600yds. I'd like to try some of that 1000 yd sh*t! I guess I cheat a little on random shooting distances! I don't carry a rifle hunting anymore unless I carry my Leica range finder! It's nice knowing the distance and your bullet trajectory out to 600! But 1000 - wow! 
ACman, you always seem to have time to take a chunk out of my ass every chance you get! |
Shouldn't have ran off my arguing buddy Get real dan....... I love you bud but this is how things went just to recap for you....
then after a few responses he posted this
Thats when i posted this......
Because it "seemed" obvious to me that he hadn't even reloaded or shot any of his reloads threw his rifle....... I may be off base but that's what it read like to me after i gave my .02 you come back with this .......
to wich i responded with this.....
If you read what i wrote dan........... I never said don't do it at all..... I said several times if you have the ability then do it otherwise it was a waste of time....... i still think thats sound advice....... Don't really matter if you've got a rifle build by jesus if you cant outshoot the ammo your using whats the point of fucking with shit that might make a 1/16 to 1/128" diffrence in groups......... if you cant shoot at least 1/2" groups or better every time you shoot... Then you still felt you had to give me a lesson in rifle shooting and said this.......(notice you directed it to me got my name at the begining)
To wich i was really pretty nice and said this....... with a few smart ellic smileys and pictures for effect..........
When i was really thinking 3 shot groups are for people like me who can't really shoot all that good....... But that not withstanding when you shoot a 3" group standing at 600 yrds I'll buy you all the beer you can drink that day and try to ease up on you a tad............
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ACman, I've been to the range with Josh and seen that rifle! It's a real piece of work, something anyone here would be proud to own. I'm sure he wants to get the ultimate accuracy out of his rifle. And he will. And we both want to see him do that. One thing you forget - my rifle shooting has the same intent you do when you shoot - to kill the animal we are shooting at. My point was not a lesson to you - I know you hunt deer with everything from a bow to a rifle. My point was one I hoped Josh would take seriously - shoot everyway possible. But I don't think I have to worry about that if he's going places like the Badlands. You know and I know from carrying a rifle after game - shooting a target at a set distance isn't the same thing as hitting a walking deer or coyote at several hundred yards. Or popping a coyote with only the head visible at 250 yds when he won't come to the call. What Josh may use his rifle for will take the most precise accuracy he can attain under the most difficult circumstances. More difficult than killing game. That's why I sent you the IM! You went sideways when you thought I was implying you are just a paper shooter. I know better than that! You just like to take a bite out of my ass every chance you get! Just admit it! 
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man bout any round loaded with decent components in a 308 bolt rifle will shoot sub 1" groups in a decent rifle and if the trigger man is up to snuff, I've spent a a year or so of my life doing the match prep on laupa, norma, and hornaday brass, segregated both the brass and bullets by weight, tried about every semi affordable brand of 168 gr match bullets on the market, match primers, different seating depth off the lands, different powders and charge weights, measured bullet run out on loaded rounds, the whole 9 yards at great funds expenditure, and I came to the conclusion that all the time and money I spent loading match quality ammo was a waste of my reasorces, that I'll never shoot up to the potential of the rifle or load, I spent plenty of change on the rifle too buying good glass and steel rings, composite stock, having the action pillar bedded in and the bolt lapped and face trued, I adjusted the trigger to 24ozs. only to find out my standard hunting load using WWbrass, WLRPs and hunting type 165gr bullets was just as accurate in my rem 700 as the match prep'd ammo and took about a third of the time to load and components were a hell of a lot cheaper, before I shot out the barrel on it, both the hunting and match prep'd ammo would avg. around .75" for 5 shots @100yrds, with a K-15 scope, now with the worn barrel its about 3 1/2 to 4" @100 and getting worse every time I shoot it, I'm sure the rifle was capable of better groups, but thats what I averaged with it for K's of rounds down range offa a bench and bags when I did my part, now I shot smaller groups on occasion with various loads, but I couldn't do it for an avg. 20 shot string, some days I couldn't get the .75" avg., so I'd put it down, have a smoke and a coke, come back later and I'd be right on, my thoughts on the deal nowdays, is if its not a rail gun or heavy as sin bolt rifle fired offa bench exclusively, theres no need to do the match prep with ammo, just be consistant with your normal loading procedure, use good components and your ammo will be as accurate as you can shoot your rifle. |
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Ndenway, I've done the same thing you've done. But we both learned a lot during the trip! I've got cheap mil surplus that will shoot sub moa if I'm doing my part with my cheap ass Savage. But I've still got "special loads" for those occasions I feel necessary to pull them out. I like the Nosler Ballistic Tips in 308 for deer. I have one 100 rd box of "special loads" I've told my son I would break his arms if he touched them. I spent that much trouble loading them. But you are right. Once you've developed a good load, all you can do is fine tune it by doing the extra steps. It may or may not be worth the effort. But you never know until you do it! |