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Posted: 9/13/2010 7:47:06 AM EDT
Guys,
Is my understanding that online training/certification is now a viable option to meet the proof of competency requirement for the CCW? If so, does anyone know where this is being offered? I have a co-worker who is interested in getting his CCW and needs to take a class.

Thx!
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 11:05:55 AM EDT
Why doesn't your co-worker want to take a real live class with an instructor?

Our Basic Safety class is only $65 and I'm live and in person, not on video.
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 11:09:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GlockSergeant:
Why doesn't your co-worker want to take a real live class with an instructor?

Our Basic Safety class is only $65 and I'm live and in person, not on video.


I think it's a time issue for him. He's a practiced shooter who has been at the hobby for years and is competent with a handgun, so he doesn't need the range time for familiarization purposes. Essentially, he's trying to fulfill a requirement. I'm not at all saying he wouldn't learn considerably more in a class than he will online, but I think getting the permit is first and foremost on his agenda.
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 11:36:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/13/2010 11:37:29 AM EDT by GlockSergeant]
Originally Posted By kcobean:
Originally Posted By GlockSergeant:
Why doesn't your co-worker want to take a real live class with an instructor?

Our Basic Safety class is only $65 and I'm live and in person, not on video.


I think it's a time issue for him. He's a practiced shooter who has been at the hobby for years and is competent with a handgun, so he doesn't need the range time for familiarization purposes. Essentially, he's trying to fulfill a requirement. I'm not at all saying he wouldn't learn considerably more in a class than he will online, but I think getting the permit is first and foremost on his agenda.


You should tell him to come take our Utah permit class. That will satisfy the Virginia and Utah requirements and then he can get 2 permits that cover 33 states.

I understand that some folks have time contraints and all that. I just don't even consider an online gun course to be on the same level as classroom training. That's why we don't offer an online course. I wish the GA never allowed for that nonsense.
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 12:26:51 PM EDT
As an NRA Certified Instructor I agree with Glock Sergeant's feelings that your friend should take a real class with a real instructor.



But to answer your question:

They who shall not be named
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 1:14:41 PM EDT


But to answer your question:



Oh no! You didn't! lol
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 2:21:34 PM EDT
My personal feeling is if you are going to accept an on-line certificate you might as well say that no training is required.

The other downside to on-line training is that from what I have heard there are states looking at dropping reciprocity because VA has changed their training requirements and they no longer are substantially similar to those states.
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 3:59:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By VaFish:
My personal feeling is if you are going to accept an on-line certificate you might as well say that no training is required.


Okay, no training should be required. Which of our other constitutional rights do I have to be trained in to exercise?

That being said, you are most certainly a fool if you don't get training but I don't need the .gov to tell me so.

YMMV

Link Posted: 9/13/2010 5:06:42 PM EDT
My wife used the following for her training cert:

http://www.concealed-carry.net/index.php
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 5:14:51 PM EDT
I don't think it should be required, but going to a class (John Murphy's basic concealed carry class) was the best thing I've done gun related.
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 5:26:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HarveyBullworth:
Originally Posted By VaFish:
My personal feeling is if you are going to accept an on-line certificate you might as well say that no training is required.

Okay, no training should be required. Which of our other constitutional rights do I have to be trained in to exercise?
That being said, you are most certainly a fool if you don't get training but I don't need the .gov to tell me so.
YMMV

Agree on all points.
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 6:12:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HarveyBullworth:
Originally Posted By VaFish:
My personal feeling is if you are going to accept an on-line certificate you might as well say that no training is required.


Okay, no training should be required. Which of our other constitutional rights do I have to be trained in to exercise?

That being said, you are most certainly a fool if you don't get training but I don't need the .gov to tell me so.

YMMV



I would really like to see a system like Alaska has where no permit is required to conceal carry in VA, but if you want to apply for a permit to get reciprocity/recognition in other states that you could do so. With the training requirement written to get as much reciprocity/recognition as possible.
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 6:37:00 PM EDT
I am one of those awful people who used the online training - but only because I am:
1. A regular shooter
2. A former Police Explorer Team pistol member
3. A safety nazi
4. A regular shooter
5. More interested in advanced training than spending classroom time learning when not to have my booger hook on the bang switch

I personally think MANY of the courses that qualify for the VA permit are laughable. I know there are some good ones, but I would rather go to those same people for more advanced/practical shooting training.

Link Posted: 9/14/2010 5:36:33 AM EDT

here's one

i even have a discount code for it... 610189






since a *hunter safety* class taught in middle school is an acceptable form why shouldn't on-line classes be good to go? it's not like we should be forced to take a class either way, we're complying with a B.S. regulation to begin with.

that said... i'm in favor of people getting some formal training. there are several CC classes that i wouldn't consider *formal* training, they're more of a safety class that doesn't really teach you anything. a safety class you can get on-line, a REAL training class requires more than shooting 25 - 50 rounds at one target and calling it a day.

the fact that most people are unwilling to spend $200 to take a REAL pistol class is sad but none the less true. these classes are few and far between and can be a bitch for scheduling which further complicates things.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 6:17:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By VaFish:
My personal feeling is if you are going to accept an on-line certificate you might as well say that no training is required.

The other downside to on-line training is that from what I have heard there are states looking at dropping reciprocity because VA has changed their training requirements and they no longer are substantially similar to those states.


Virginia's training requirements are in the statute, and are rather slim.
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308

G. The court shall require proof that the applicant has demonstrated competence with a handgun and the applicant may demonstrate such competence by one of the following, but no applicant shall be required to submit to any additional demonstration of competence, nor shall any proof of demonstrated competence expire:

1. Completing any hunter education or hunter safety course approved by the Department of Game and Inland Fisheries or a similar agency of another state;

2. Completing any National Rifle Association firearms safety or training course;

3. Completing any firearms safety or training course or class available to the general public offered by a law-enforcement agency, junior college, college, or private or public institution or organization or firearms training school utilizing instructors certified by the National Rifle Association or the Department of Criminal Justice Services;

4. Completing any law-enforcement firearms safety or training course or class offered for security guards, investigators, special deputies, or any division or subdivision of law enforcement or security enforcement;

5. Presenting evidence of equivalent experience with a firearm through participation in organized shooting competition or current military service or proof of an honorable discharge from any branch of the armed services;

6. Obtaining or previously having held a license to carry a firearm in the Commonwealth or a locality thereof, unless such license has been revoked for cause;

7. Completing any firearms training or safety course or class, including an electronic, video, or on-line course, conducted by a state-certified or National Rifle Association-certified firearms instructor;

8. Completing any governmental police agency firearms training course and qualifying to carry a firearm in the course of normal police duties; or

9. Completing any other firearms training which the court deems adequate.

A photocopy of a certificate of completion of any of the courses or classes; an affidavit from the instructor, school, club, organization, or group that conducted or taught such course or class attesting to the completion of the course or class by the applicant; or a copy of any document which shows completion of the course or class or evidences participation in firearms competition shall constitute evidence of qualification under this subsection.


Part of the reason was the use of 'training' as a reason to NOT issue permits in the 'may issue' days.

It is only intended as a simple safety requirement, and range time is not required, nor any legal information.

The 'Virginia gun Owner's Guide' can be a real eye opener for Virginia lethal force law.
It is ALL case (common) law.



Link Posted: 9/14/2010 8:49:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GlockSergeant:
Originally Posted By kcobean:
Originally Posted By GlockSergeant:
Why doesn't your co-worker want to take a real live class with an instructor?

Our Basic Safety class is only $65 and I'm live and in person, not on video.


I think it's a time issue for him. He's a practiced shooter who has been at the hobby for years and is competent with a handgun, so he doesn't need the range time for familiarization purposes. Essentially, he's trying to fulfill a requirement. I'm not at all saying he wouldn't learn considerably more in a class than he will online, but I think getting the permit is first and foremost on his agenda.


You should tell him to come take our Utah permit class. That will satisfy the Virginia and Utah requirements and then he can get 2 permits that cover 33 states.

I understand that some folks have time contraints and all that. I just don't even consider an online gun course to be on the same level as classroom training. That's why we don't offer an online course. I wish the GA never allowed for that nonsense.


For my own understanding, can you "sell me" on why the classroom is better than online training for someone who is proficient with a handgun already? I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but I sense a bit of business motivation behind your displeasure with the allowance of online training....i.e. it shrinks your market. I'd imagine that personally you, like most of us, don't agree with a training requirement to exercise a right. That's fine, and I get it, I'd just like some insight into what I get out of sitting in a classroom that I can't get from a computer based training program.

Educate me.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 11:28:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By kcobean:
For my own understanding, can you "sell me" on why the classroom is better than online training for someone who is proficient with a handgun already? I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but I sense a bit of business motivation behind your displeasure with the allowance of online training....i.e. it shrinks your market. I'd imagine that personally you, like most of us, don't agree with a training requirement to exercise a right. That's fine, and I get it, I'd just like some insight into what I get out of sitting in a classroom that I can't get from a computer based training program.

Educate me.


I have no dog in this fight but, I am with GLockSgt. on this one.

I have had my permit for many years now and had my g/f take a CCW class last year. I made sure it was a classroom one for the following reasons:
1) Were do you go if you have a question? The monitor is not going to answer it for you.
2) A lot of times the instructor will give you experiences he/she have had or have been relaid to them. The instructor of my g/f's class is a LEO and works part time for a gun shop. He was able to let the class know what to expect in general if you carry and are dealing with a leo, what to expect from a leo if you have to pull your gun and what to expect if you have to pull and use your gun.
3) You get to hear the answers of questions other's have asked. They may think of something you did not.

This is my 2 cents and of course, YMMV.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 12:38:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By kcobean:
Originally Posted By GlockSergeant:
Originally Posted By kcobean:
Originally Posted By GlockSergeant:
Why doesn't your co-worker want to take a real live class with an instructor?

Our Basic Safety class is only $65 and I'm live and in person, not on video.


I think it's a time issue for him. He's a practiced shooter who has been at the hobby for years and is competent with a handgun, so he doesn't need the range time for familiarization purposes. Essentially, he's trying to fulfill a requirement. I'm not at all saying he wouldn't learn considerably more in a class than he will online, but I think getting the permit is first and foremost on his agenda.


You should tell him to come take our Utah permit class. That will satisfy the Virginia and Utah requirements and then he can get 2 permits that cover 33 states.

I understand that some folks have time contraints and all that. I just don't even consider an online gun course to be on the same level as classroom training. That's why we don't offer an online course. I wish the GA never allowed for that nonsense.


For my own understanding, can you "sell me" on why the classroom is better than online training for someone who is proficient with a handgun already? I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but I sense a bit of business motivation behind your displeasure with the allowance of online training....i.e. it shrinks your market. I'd imagine that personally you, like most of us, don't agree with a training requirement to exercise a right. That's fine, and I get it, I'd just like some insight into what I get out of sitting in a classroom that I can't get from a computer based training program.

Educate me.


Valid question.

I could just direct you to our Testimonials page and leave it at that, but you ask a good question, so you definitely deserve a good answer.

Watching a 30-60 minute video only exposes the student to the material contained in the video. A student may be a total novice, or experienced shooter. From the student's standpoint, both novice and expert have questions, or things that they have been taught, seen, heard, done, etc which may or may not be correct. A video can't fix those. I have many experienced shooters that tell me (for example):

1) A magazine's shouldn't be kept fully loaded for a long time
2) I was taught to use the slide lock lever to chamber a round
3) FMJ ammo is fine for self defense
4) I thought that the law was ___________
5) .45 is the only caliber worth carrying
6) Semi-autos are the way to go. Carrying a revolver is foolish.
7) Semi-autos jam, revolvers are absolutely foolproof and never malfuntion.

The list is endless. A student who sits by himself and watches a video never gets an answer to his question. He isn't exposed to the other student's questions, which he may not have even thought of himself. Even an experienced person benefits from this instructor/other student interaction. I'm an instructor and former LEO and I learn something new in darn near every class. I have had students come in with years of experience and walk out saying "yes, I learned some stuff today". Police officers, gun store owners, firearms instructors, the butcher, the baker and the candlestick maker all have ND's, accidents, bad habits, etc and they can all benefit from good training. Experienced folks are just as dangerous as novices because its easy for complacency to set in. We as gun owners all need to step back once in a while and review the basics. Next month I'm taking a 2 day course myself so that I can brush up on my skills. So that I can be reminded of the proper way to do things. How many experienced drivers speed, change lanes without signaling, cross the solid white line, etc. Don't we all wish that they had a refresher on the basics?

From the instructor standpoint, there is definitely an "I get it" look that a student gives off when he is properly receiving the material. A good instructor knows when his students are understanding the material that he is instructing. Isn't that the goal of providing instruction? A video cannot do that. Answer this - what was the last movie that you watched/rented? Now give me the title, top four actor's names, their character's names, their jobs and the city that the movie was set in. Most people can't name that stuff. Your retention level of watching a 30-60 minute video is much less than a live interaction with real people, handling real guns, real magazines, etc. Adult learning theories teach us that fact.

If my motivation was monetary, trust me when I say that I could have a video on our website in 10 minutes. When we started this company in 2007, our marketing analysis considered the idea of doing an online class. I looked at it, and was dead set against it....and that was probably 1 1/2 to 2 years before any of these other companies started offering an online class. I value the concept of providing good training more than squeezing $29.99 out of someone at 2am while they watch a video. When someone has a half-dozen questions after class, I sit and explain it again. I give up taking a break sometimes in class to answer questions. I schedule an hour shooting lesson and often spend an extra 45 minutes working with a student. The value of a properly trained student to me is important. Its too important to fluff off in a 30-60 minute video and hope that I got my message across. I won't put my name and my reputation on that.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 12:40:08 PM EDT
The Maryland state police offered an online CCW class for free to anyone, even other states. Not sure if they still do though.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 12:44:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GlockSergeant:
Originally Posted By kcobean:
Originally Posted By GlockSergeant:
Originally Posted By kcobean:
Originally Posted By GlockSergeant:
Why doesn't your co-worker want to take a real live class with an instructor?

Our Basic Safety class is only $65 and I'm live and in person, not on video.


I think it's a time issue for him. He's a practiced shooter who has been at the hobby for years and is competent with a handgun, so he doesn't need the range time for familiarization purposes. Essentially, he's trying to fulfill a requirement. I'm not at all saying he wouldn't learn considerably more in a class than he will online, but I think getting the permit is first and foremost on his agenda.


You should tell him to come take our Utah permit class. That will satisfy the Virginia and Utah requirements and then he can get 2 permits that cover 33 states.

I understand that some folks have time contraints and all that. I just don't even consider an online gun course to be on the same level as classroom training. That's why we don't offer an online course. I wish the GA never allowed for that nonsense.


For my own understanding, can you "sell me" on why the classroom is better than online training for someone who is proficient with a handgun already? I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but I sense a bit of business motivation behind your displeasure with the allowance of online training....i.e. it shrinks your market. I'd imagine that personally you, like most of us, don't agree with a training requirement to exercise a right. That's fine, and I get it, I'd just like some insight into what I get out of sitting in a classroom that I can't get from a computer based training program.

Educate me.
(Snip)
2) I was taught to use the slide lock lever to chamber a round
(Snip)

What's the problem? I know about the gross vs. fine motor skills debate, but I've yet to hear any stories about someone missing the slid lock under stress.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 1:01:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2010 1:09:26 PM EDT by GlockSergeant]
Originally Posted By odiedodi:

Originally Posted By GlockSergeant:
Originally Posted By kcobean:
Originally Posted By GlockSergeant:
Originally Posted By kcobean:
Originally Posted By GlockSergeant:
Why doesn't your co-worker want to take a real live class with an instructor?

Our Basic Safety class is only $65 and I'm live and in person, not on video.


I think it's a time issue for him. He's a practiced shooter who has been at the hobby for years and is competent with a handgun, so he doesn't need the range time for familiarization purposes. Essentially, he's trying to fulfill a requirement. I'm not at all saying he wouldn't learn considerably more in a class than he will online, but I think getting the permit is first and foremost on his agenda.


You should tell him to come take our Utah permit class. That will satisfy the Virginia and Utah requirements and then he can get 2 permits that cover 33 states.

I understand that some folks have time contraints and all that. I just don't even consider an online gun course to be on the same level as classroom training. That's why we don't offer an online course. I wish the GA never allowed for that nonsense.


For my own understanding, can you "sell me" on why the classroom is better than online training for someone who is proficient with a handgun already? I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but I sense a bit of business motivation behind your displeasure with the allowance of online training....i.e. it shrinks your market. I'd imagine that personally you, like most of us, don't agree with a training requirement to exercise a right. That's fine, and I get it, I'd just like some insight into what I get out of sitting in a classroom that I can't get from a computer based training program.

Educate me.
(Snip)
2) I was taught to use the slide lock lever to chamber a round
(Snip)

What's the problem? I know about the gross vs. fine motor skills debate, but I've yet to hear any stories about someone missing the slid lock under stress.



Its the fact that the slide lock lever does not allow for the slide to travel its full length. There is still additional rearward travel in the slide. Shortening the slide's travel can cause a malfunction. More importantly, releasing the slide by using the slingshot method helps you develop the skill of clearing a malfunction using the tap/rack drill whereas the slide lock lever does not help you develop the muscle memory needed to clear the malfunction.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 1:04:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2010 1:06:28 PM EDT by kcobean]
Disgregard...GlockSGT is on his game today and beat me to the punch
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 1:18:49 PM EDT
Here's another one I forgot -

You are in a gunfight in the dark. You fire your first mag, drop the empty and replace with another mag.....except the full mag that you thought you picked up was really empty. In other words, you just put an empty mag in your gun. By pulling the slide lock lever, the slide goes forward and you pull the trigger and get zip. By slingshotting the slide, my slide stays locked back and I can see that I reinserted an empty mag.

Think its far-fetched? Then you've never dealt with LEO's on a firing line who put the first empty mag in their pouch/pocket/etc and then grabbed the same empty mag and reloaded it in the gun while trying to fire off 2 rounds in 3 seconds, or 6 rounds in 15 seconds, etc. Imagine that someone is shooting at you. You just grab for a mag. You may not realize its empty as you are inserting it. Seen it before. Sometimes you're trying to do a mag save and you didn't realize that the mag you thought had 2 more rounds was really empty when you dropped it because there is a world of crap going on around you.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 1:50:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2010 1:53:15 PM EDT by kcobean]
Originally Posted By GlockSergeant:
Originally Posted By kcobean:
Originally Posted By GlockSergeant:
Originally Posted By kcobean:
Originally Posted By GlockSergeant:
Why doesn't your co-worker want to take a real live class with an instructor?

Our Basic Safety class is only $65 and I'm live and in person, not on video.


I think it's a time issue for him. He's a practiced shooter who has been at the hobby for years and is competent with a handgun, so he doesn't need the range time for familiarization purposes. Essentially, he's trying to fulfill a requirement. I'm not at all saying he wouldn't learn considerably more in a class than he will online, but I think getting the permit is first and foremost on his agenda.


You should tell him to come take our Utah permit class. That will satisfy the Virginia and Utah requirements and then he can get 2 permits that cover 33 states.

I understand that some folks have time contraints and all that. I just don't even consider an online gun course to be on the same level as classroom training. That's why we don't offer an online course. I wish the GA never allowed for that nonsense.


For my own understanding, can you "sell me" on why the classroom is better than online training for someone who is proficient with a handgun already? I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but I sense a bit of business motivation behind your displeasure with the allowance of online training....i.e. it shrinks your market. I'd imagine that personally you, like most of us, don't agree with a training requirement to exercise a right. That's fine, and I get it, I'd just like some insight into what I get out of sitting in a classroom that I can't get from a computer based training program.

Educate me.


Valid question.

I could just direct you to our Testimonials page and leave it at that, but you ask a good question, so you definitely deserve a good answer.

Watching a 30-60 minute video only exposes the student to the material contained in the video. A student may be a total novice, or experienced shooter. From the student's standpoint, both novice and expert have questions, or things that they have been taught, seen, heard, done, etc which may or may not be correct. A video can't fix those. I have many experienced shooters that tell me (for example):

1) A magazine's shouldn't be kept fully loaded for a long time
2) I was taught to use the slide lock lever to chamber a round
3) FMJ ammo is fine for self defense
4) I thought that the law was ___________
5) .45 is the only caliber worth carrying
6) Semi-autos are the way to go. Carrying a revolver is foolish.
7) Semi-autos jam, revolvers are absolutely foolproof and never malfuntion.

The list is endless. A student who sits by himself and watches a video never gets an answer to his question. He isn't exposed to the other student's questions, which he may not have even thought of himself. Even an experienced person benefits from this instructor/other student interaction. I'm an instructor and former LEO and I learn something new in darn near every class. I have had students come in with years of experience and walk out saying "yes, I learned some stuff today". Police officers, gun store owners, firearms instructors, the butcher, the baker and the candlestick maker all have ND's, accidents, bad habits, etc and they can all benefit from good training. Experienced folks are just as dangerous as novices because its easy for complacency to set in. We as gun owners all need to step back once in a while and review the basics. Next month I'm taking a 2 day course myself so that I can brush up on my skills. So that I can be reminded of the proper way to do things. How many experienced drivers speed, change lanes without signaling, cross the solid white line, etc. Don't we all wish that they had a refresher on the basics?

From the instructor standpoint, there is definitely an "I get it" look that a student gives off when he is properly receiving the material. A good instructor knows when his students are understanding the material that he is instructing. Isn't that the goal of providing instruction? A video cannot do that. Answer this - what was the last movie that you watched/rented? Now give me the title, top four actor's names, their character's names, their jobs and the city that the movie was set in. Most people can't name that stuff. Your retention level of watching a 30-60 minute video is much less than a live interaction with real people, handling real guns, real magazines, etc. Adult learning theories teach us that fact.

If my motivation was monetary, trust me when I say that I could have a video on our website in 10 minutes. When we started this company in 2007, our marketing analysis considered the idea of doing an online class. I looked at it, and was dead set against it....and that was probably 1 1/2 to 2 years before any of these other companies started offering an online class. I value the concept of providing good training more than squeezing $29.99 out of someone at 2am while they watch a video. When someone has a half-dozen questions after class, I sit and explain it again. I give up taking a break sometimes in class to answer questions. I schedule an hour shooting lesson and often spend an extra 45 minutes working with a student. The value of a properly trained student to me is important. Its too important to fluff off in a 30-60 minute video and hope that I got my message across. I won't put my name and my reputation on that.


Thank you for the detailed answer. It sounds like I would probably benefit from your class even after almost 15 years of being a permit holder and carrying a gun, being an active shooter, and being diligent about reading and learning the statutes, some case law, etc. I'm probably past most of the gun-store mythology that gets many new shooters....I think.

One of the things that really pisses me off about the CCW training requirement is that it can be satisfied with a hunter safety course. That to me is an insult and a joke and it's an indicator that the state is only trying to cover their political ass so they can say they required "training" before issuing someone a license to carry a deadly weapon. In my opinion, with open carry being legal with NO training, the only *mandatory* training should be a 15 minute video you watch on the VSP website (after authenticating with your drivers license # or something) that explains the specific legal restrictions of carrying a weapon (i.e. where you can, can't, etc). At least that way they can say "we told you so" when they bust you for shooting yourself in the balls with your pocket gun after having a few beers at the local pizza joint.

That said, I think a *responsible* carrier will seek out education in one form or another, both in hands-on and academic form. It looks like your class is less of a "CCW preparation" class and more of a handgun ownership education class, which perhaps I misunderstood from the beginning and for that I apologize. I'm curious if the state places any requirements on you as a school in regards to course content, or only that the instructor be an NRA certified instructor? If the answer is no, that's one more thing about the training requirement that makes no sense. A class is only going to be as good as the instructor and if he's some goofy schmoe looking to make a buck, he's doing the student more harm than good.

Admittedly, all my co-worker is looking to do is "check the box" to get his permit, given that he is "safe to others" from a firearms handling standpoint. Some folks WANT to know more, some don't. Can't change that, but it's his right.

Again, thanks for the response.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:15:16 PM EDT
Every lawful gun owner who also seeks to bear their arms outside the home MUST get training and maintain proficiency.

But, government, in any form, would be the LAST institution I want involved in the exercise of the right to bear arms. Anyone who understands the original (and still the best) meaning of the 2nd Amendment knows why this is.

I am in favor of the interpretation of Vermont/Alaska/Arizona when it comes to the carrying of lawfully owned handguns outside the home. Let the individual decide if they want to learn basic competency through in-person training.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:28:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GlockSergeant:
Originally Posted By odiedodi:

Originally Posted By GlockSergeant:
Originally Posted By kcobean:
Originally Posted By GlockSergeant:
Originally Posted By kcobean:
Originally Posted By GlockSergeant:
Why doesn't your co-worker want to take a real live class with an instructor?

Our Basic Safety class is only $65 and I'm live and in person, not on video.


I think it's a time issue for him. He's a practiced shooter who has been at the hobby for years and is competent with a handgun, so he doesn't need the range time for familiarization purposes. Essentially, he's trying to fulfill a requirement. I'm not at all saying he wouldn't learn considerably more in a class than he will online, but I think getting the permit is first and foremost on his agenda.


You should tell him to come take our Utah permit class. That will satisfy the Virginia and Utah requirements and then he can get 2 permits that cover 33 states.

I understand that some folks have time contraints and all that. I just don't even consider an online gun course to be on the same level as classroom training. That's why we don't offer an online course. I wish the GA never allowed for that nonsense.


For my own understanding, can you "sell me" on why the classroom is better than online training for someone who is proficient with a handgun already? I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but I sense a bit of business motivation behind your displeasure with the allowance of online training....i.e. it shrinks your market. I'd imagine that personally you, like most of us, don't agree with a training requirement to exercise a right. That's fine, and I get it, I'd just like some insight into what I get out of sitting in a classroom that I can't get from a computer based training program.

Educate me.
(Snip)
2) I was taught to use the slide lock lever to chamber a round
(Snip)

What's the problem? I know about the gross vs. fine motor skills debate, but I've yet to hear any stories about someone missing the slid lock under stress.



Its the fact that the slide lock lever does not allow for the slide to travel its full length. There is still additional rearward travel in the slide. Shortening the slide's travel can cause a malfunction. More importantly, releasing the slide by using the slingshot method helps you develop the skill of clearing a malfunction using the tap/rack drill whereas the slide lock lever does not help you develop the muscle memory needed to clear the malfunction.


You should take it up with Mr. J. M. Browning.

His patent for the 1911 points out the advantage of being able to quickly chamber after relaong by hitting the nice textured area he placed on the slide stop/slide release (the patent actually calls it both in appropriate sections).

But then, what would he know?
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:52:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HarveyBullworth:
My personal feeling is if you are going to accept an on-line certificate you might as well say that no training is required.

Okay, no training should be required. Which of our other constitutional rights do I have to be trained in to exercise?

That being said, you are most certainly a fool if you don't get training but I don't need the .gov to tell me so.

Well said.


Link Posted: 9/14/2010 7:28:21 PM EDT
One of the things that really pisses me off about the CCW training requirement is that it can be satisfied with a hunter safety course.


Don't even get me started on that.

It looks like your class is less of a "CCW preparation" class and more of a handgun ownership education class, which perhaps I misunderstood from the beginning and for that I apologize.


Our Basic Firearms Safety class is just that, a gun safety class. Its my interpretation of the statute and the legislative intent that they desire one to have a handgun safety course, first and foremost. Gun ownership/CCW all starts out with safety and the fundamentals, so it would seem reasonable IMHO to begin there. We do offer a secondary course that gets more into the concept of concealed carry in Va, but "gun safety" and "concealed carry" are two different animals in my view. We sometimes have folks that take our safety class for the gun that they keep at home and never plan to carry. A CCW class would do them no good, while a gun safety class as a beginning serves both the homeowner and CHP holder.


I'm curious if the state places any requirements on you as a school in regards to course content,


None. No content requirements, no time requirements, no testing requiremens. I could teach you how to fix a Volkswagon engine and if I call it gun safety, you can get your CHP....




or only that the instructor be an NRA certified instructor?


The instructor can be NRA certified or state certified by DCJS.

If the answer is no, that's one more thing about the training requirement that makes no sense. A class is only going to be as good as the instructor and if he's some goofy schmoe looking to make a buck, he's doing the student more harm than good.

and there are a bunch of them out there.





Link Posted: 9/14/2010 7:31:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/15/2010 2:36:33 AM EDT by GlockSergeant]
Originally Posted By brickeyee:
You should take it up with Mr. J. M. Browning.

His patent for the 1911 points out the advantage of being able to quickly chamber after relaong by hitting the nice textured area he placed on the slide stop/slide release (the patent actually calls it both in appropriate sections).

But then, what would he know?





Oh I didn't say that it didn't work (most of the time), just that I think there's a better way. Not the best way, but a better one. That's my opinion and its worth every penny that you paid for it.

You know, they used to think that drilling a hole in your skull was a good way to relieve a headache...but then, what do we know?
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 4:11:14 AM EDT

as far as the slide lock (lock not release)....

i inadvertently engaged the safety on an H&K once when going for the *slide lock* on a mag change during a course. thumb went forward to hit the lock and pushed up on the selector. boy was i surprised when i went to fire the next round. it cost me some valuable time and was a huge distraction at the exact moment that i didn't need one.

that was the last time i ever used the slide lock as a release and it was the last day i carried a gun with a manual safety. sold two H&K's because of that.

Link Posted: 9/15/2010 6:56:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmedSuspect:

as far as the slide lock (lock not release)....

i inadvertently engaged the safety on an H&K once when going for the *slide lock* on a mag change during a course. thumb went forward to hit the lock and pushed up on the selector. boy was i surprised when i went to fire the next round. it cost me some valuable time and was a huge distraction at the exact moment that i didn't need one.

that was the last time i ever used the slide lock as a release and it was the last day i carried a gun with a manual safety. sold two H&K's because of that.



Springfield XD for the win. 1911 style grip safety. Glock-like trigger safety. No manual safety, because it isn't necessary.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 7:01:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By kcobean:

For my own understanding, can you "sell me" on why the classroom is better than online training for someone who is proficient with a handgun already? I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but I sense a bit of business motivation behind your displeasure with the allowance of online training....i.e. it shrinks your market. I'd imagine that personally you, like most of us, don't agree with a training requirement to exercise a right. That's fine, and I get it, I'd just like some insight into what I get out of sitting in a classroom that I can't get from a computer based training program.

Educate me.


Well in my case there is no business motivation. I am a volunteer instructor at our club. I make no money off of the training classes I teach.

As an NRA certified instructor I teach the Knowledge, Skills, and Attitude to safely use a firearm. I only issue a certificate if I feel the student has displayed those three things. If a person comes to one of my classes and doesn't display them I don't issue them a certificate. Watching an online video course and taking a short test there is no way to asses the persons skills or attitude; only their knowledge can be assessed.

You get interaction with an instructor and the other students. You learn more in a classroom. Even if you think you are an accomplished shooter until you have your shooting evaluated by an experienced instructor you really don't know if you are doing it right.

In our concealed carry class (NRA Personal Protection Outside The Home) a one hour lesson is dedicated to discussing Virginia law with a practicing defense attorney. This past weekend the students were so interested in speaking with the attorney and the attorney was willing to answer questions that the 1 hour block of instruction turned into almost 2 hours. If you went and paid that attorney to spend 2 hours answering your questions it would have cost you $400; way more then the cost of the class. You don't get that type of interaction with a video. You don't have the flexibility with a video course to modify content for your students.

I also don't like online classes because of the ease of fraudulently taking the class. 20+ years ago when I was in the Army we could take a lot of training by correspondence course. I had a fellow NCO that got all sorts of promotion points for taking correspondence courses. He never took one of them he had his wife read the books and take the tests. The online courses are the same way. The course I linked to offers a 2 for 1 special with 2 people watching the video at the same time. What's to stop a couple from taking the 2 for one special and only having one person watch the video and take the tests?

If all you want to do is check the box for required training and you are already an accomplished shooter in VA the law says you can show competence with a handgun by " Presenting evidence of equivalent experience with a firearm through participation in organized shooting competition" A classification card from NRA, IDPA or USPSA will suffice. In my experience any most people who fit the description of competent with a handgun can show that to the judge. One of the other posters said he used the online course for his proof of training for his CHP application, he also mentioned that he was on a police youth pistol team. Proof of shooting on that pistol team and shooting in competitions would have been enough, he didn't need to take the online class.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 8:17:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By kcobean:
Originally Posted By ArmedSuspect:

as far as the slide lock (lock not release)....

i inadvertently engaged the safety on an H&K once when going for the *slide lock* on a mag change during a course. thumb went forward to hit the lock and pushed up on the selector. boy was i surprised when i went to fire the next round. it cost me some valuable time and was a huge distraction at the exact moment that i didn't need one.

that was the last time i ever used the slide lock as a release and it was the last day i carried a gun with a manual safety. sold two H&K's because of that.



Springfield XD for the win. 1911 style grip safety. Glock-like trigger safety. No manual safety, because it isn't necessary.




GLOCK perfection
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