Quoted: Now I make a concerted effort to not pigeonhole anything on an arbitrary basis, and that includes people. I've seen how that very easy "solution" can lead to some really just-plain-wrong conclusions. Anyone who wants to work hard, raise a family, happily grow old, etc., should have the chance to do so whatever their background.

Yep, pure Archie Bunker-ism going on here.

The cheap shot was made at me... now the question is...can a black be racist on blacks? Can a hispanic be racist on hispanics? Home court advantage, OK to be self-critical? etc etc? According to PC standards, NO WAY JOSE.

But let a white boy say the very same things, same language, same critique...and bamo, 'racism'.

Only....I don't play by PC rules. I play by logic wherein either I'm right on the basis of argument or I'm wrong. I'm not right or wrong for my ethnicity or race but on whether my words/actions are correct or not.

As the above posters have said, this whole discussion is about MS13 and other gangs that might be a problem post -SHTF. We all made repeated distinctions between gang-bangers and immigrants in general.

At the most I posed the question as to what is the PROBABILITY of an illegal immigrant joining a gang for survival in a post-SHTF world where 'legal' gainful employment dries up. I haven't made any arguments as to this new gangbanger's moral status, merely an argument that an illegal immigrant MIGHT be more prone to reach out to MS13 for help than, say, complete strangers (Americans) who he doesn't share much in common with.

I'd be delighted to be proven or even argued WRONG about this assessment. It would make me FEEL better to think that in a post-SHTF world MS13 will not grow at all, that therefore there will not be a growing number of armed tactical teams of young men with little to lose and alot to gain by ganging up on lone homeowners in a replay of Attila's sack of Roman Gaul.

As I stated earlier I not only speak Spanish (and other languages) I've lived and worked south of the border helping Mexicans and Salvadorans and consider many to be friends. I'm probably a co-religionist with most of them too for that matter. So racist? Naw. Ethnicist? nope.

Just a guy trying to gauge the risk I'm taking and ought to prepare for mitigating in the event of a disaster that forces me to walk 60 some miles home from northern Northern Virginia, through Herdon, Fairfax, Manassas, Woodbridge, to points south of Quantico. OR the risk I'm taking and ought to prepare for LIVING hunkered down in points south of Quantico but north of Richmond, well within the range of hundreds of thousands of my 'neighbors'.

I don't care the race or religion of my neighbors... I'm trying to gauge whether or not they'd be favorably disposed to either live and let live or at least not assault me unprovoked.

Edited because I jacked up the qoutes and hurt my head trying to fix them read the blue words as my new comments.

Quoted: Anyone who adopts the theory that a majority of illegal immigrants are one disaster away from becoming murderers and rapists because they obviously lack any morals, or work ethic since they've already committed a crime needs to step back and think. Would you care to give an example of someone saying this? We are talking about MS13, not Illegals in general. I don't feel bad painting gang members as people that do not follow laws. MS13 has a very much deserved reputation as being a criminal and terrorist organization [qoute]If a man was in a foreign land, living illegally, for cash, largely hand to mouth, depending on my buddies for everything and there was some disaster that a) meant no more work b) no more food and services and c) no prospect for government handouts or ready means to get them from the community.... it wouldn't take long for to inherent advantage of being a tight knit group of young men to kick in and allow them to basically take what they needed AND WANTED to survive and survive in comfort or at least in "excitement".[/qoute]   Seems to me that's exactly what this statment is saying that an illegal alien is one disaster away from becoming a criminal. First I'll say we've all committed a crime or are willing to under certain circumstnaces. Hell most of us speed on a daily basis it violates the laws of this state, but I wouldn't say it makes us rapists/murderers in waiting. [qoute]By that logic, we should just let murderers go free, because we've all commited a crime at some time...Right? There is a very large criminal element that comes from Mexico. Obviously all are not murderers/rapists, whatever. They are however in this country illegally, and I will not just say, "Oh, that's O.K., I've committed a crime before too, so go on ahead and continue living here illegally.".[/qoute] That's not what I was saying in fact at the end of my post I stated that illegal's when caught should be deported and subject to the laws of this nation I never said to look the other way.  What that statement was meant to say was that just because someone is in this country illegaly doesn't make them a terrible person or a criminal in waiting. Second think about what an illegal immigrant has gone through to get here to this nation. Not all of them simply walked across the border and didn't go back. Some have invested not only time but also money and heartache to get here so that they can send back the majority of there money to family back home. I don't think you can say that a man willing to do that will immediately lose his sense of values and ethics simply because he's been put out of work, in fact there's a good chance that he's better at losing his sole source of income and accepting those repurcussions than we are O.K., by thios logic then, we should consider how much effort and heartache a bank robber goes through to rob a bank to give money to his kids. I take umbrage with the idea that a poor person would deal better with losing possessions. The person with money had to work pretty hard to get where they were, and I fail to see why they would lose that work ethic when faced by a challenge. In fact, I would argue that they would do much better, and be more productive as they have made much more of an investment in our society, and it means more to them. Take the Hurricane Katrina looters. They were poor before the storm and very used to it. After the storm they took the place apart and even hindered rebuilding efforts because they felt no obligation to the society they lived in. Again, we are talking about MS 13, not illegals in general. Yes the thread started out on MS13 but surely you can see where it drifted into the illegal immigration aspect, I for one started getting the feeling that this thread was starting to generalize and say that MS13 is composed of purely illegal's and illegal's are MS13.  No we shouldn't ignore a crime just because it took hard planning I'm just saying that just because a man entered this country illegaly doesn't make him lazy there may be more to it, I never said it should make it legal.  I'll agree with your point somewhat.  Yes a rich man that worked to get where he is would probably buckle down and earn it again if the need arose.  I still think a poor person who has dealt with the situation of being out of work before is going to adjust to it quicker and more easily though.  As far as New Orleans good point I won't argue other than to say there are plenty of rich criminals.  Also look at any college campus that's a classic case of the affluent who haven't earned it running amok.  Even William & Mary students can't seem to be honest upstanding citizens.  How many sexual assaults did the one this weekend put them at?  I would go ahead and guess that this campus is predominantly the more affluent of our society.  My point was and is don't say that a poor man will instantly become a criminal because he's jobless, and don't say a non-violent criminal will become violent at the drop of a hat.  Violent crime has more to do with how you were raised and your social up bringing rather than whether you've commited non-violent crimes in the past. I also noticed people saying these were great laws that our great government came up with and everybody should follow them. If you believe that ask yourself if you had any extra evil features on a rifle during the AWB because it was a stupid law and I'm not really hurting anybody by having a collapsible stock, or maybe you had a lower that was purchased prior to the ban but not yet a complete rifle and decided to say it was. Or for that matter if you ignore any other law because it's stupid and your not hurting anybody. If your going to say the immigration laws are great because our government says they are then that means any laws our government comes up with are great. What you are saying here is that if you disagree with one law, you disagree with all of them? Where the hell are you getting this? If I think one law is great, I therefore must agree with every other law? This is patently ridiculous, and takes away a lot of the credibility in your argument. The logic here is lacking. I would consider re-thinking this part of your argument. This still stands if you think the immigration laws of this nation are the best thing since sliced bread simply because our government came up with them then you have to like the rest of the laws we come up with.  If you have a specific problem with immigration laws then drive on voice your concern and work with your elected reprsentatives to get them changed but don't put out the statement there good cause the govenment says so. . If you haven't spoken to an illegal immigrant then you may want to think about doing so learning a little something about what can make an honest man become a criminal and turn his back on his country and family simply for the chance to live in this country illegaly might open your eyes. We sit here and say this is the greatest country in the world and everyone should want to live here and then bash a man for risking everything he has to come here. We then justify ourselves by saying well it's ok as long as there "legal" then there ok guys. Well that's just blanket prejudice. We are not bashing a man for coming here and risking everything. Please give an example where this was done. I can't find one. I think you might be talking about a different thread. And by the way, YES it is OK for them to come here legally. What is wrong with wanting them to immigrate legally? If you are saying that people are prejudice toward illegals, and not toward legal immigrants, I would say that yes, people tend to judge those that abide by the law less critically. I fail to see the racial connection here that you seem to be implying. I don't think I said it happened in this thread I was giving an example for the point of discussion.  Also we tend to judge people who commit crimes by what we think of the crime not by them actually commiting it.  I don't think we judge people by law-breaker, law-abider but more by what laws we find it acceptable to break.I a legal alien who commits crime a better deal for the nation than an illegal who keeps his nose clean and works for cash, simply because the legal immigrant is "allowed" to be here? I say if a man wants to work hard and make a better life for himself and his family then let him be whether he's a citizen, legal, or illegal. Absolutely, and he can do it in a way that follows the laws of whatever country he lives in. If he doesn't want to follow the laws in this country , he can do all that stuff somewhere else. So by your reasoning if you violate any law of this nation you need to pack up and head somewhere else.  I'll say once again we all violate laws and none of us are perfect.  To me it's not so much whether your here illegally or legally but what you do with your time here and how you interact with the citizens of this nation. In fact I can think of a whole bunch of citizens I'd gladly trade 1 for 1 for some good illegal immigrants. Now there's an idea let's deport our criminal citizens and allow an immigrant a shot at being here. Who's the one to decide who gets to stay, you? I'm all for the immigrant coming over, just follow the rules. Get here legally and it's all good. Immigrants are the backbone of this nation. Never said it was up to me and I wouldn't want the job if it was offered.  However I can find a shitload of illegals down on day labor corners that I'm sure would make better citizens than some of my fellow citizens.  I'd gladly trade 'em one for one for the citizens of this nation standing in the welfare lines on the 1st (yes I know we don't make 'em stand in line for there check anymore because it's demeaning...but you get my drift)  but since it's not up to me it'll never happen once again this was just something I feel. Before I get flamed I'm not saying we should knock down the walls and just let the world flow in. I'm not even saying that we should look the other way towards illegal immigrants if there caught they should be subject to the laws of this nation. Funny, I think that's exactly what you are saying. We've all commited crimes right? Why not just look the other way while illegals exploit our country? It's interesting to hear someone say something, and then turn around and say they meant the opposite. Kind of like John Kerry saying that he's not anti-gun. Well now you know that wasn't what I meant to say sorry you feel that way.  My post was meant to say that just because a man is an illegal immigrant doens't make him a bad person.  It was not meant to say we should allow them to exploit our country.  It seems that we like to pawn off alot of our problems on the illegal immigrant problem instead of looking at our own citizens that can't be a responsible member of society.  In other words look at the individual not the group. . What I am saying is there seems to be a general train of thought in this thread that illegal aliens are either criminals or are willing to become one, and I say there no more predisposed to it than you are. One more time for the cheap seats, we are talking about MS 13. They are already breaking laws and causing mayhem. I'm tired of the race card getting played every time an issue like this comes up. I don't care what race someone is, if they want to be a productive member of this society, as opposed to a dtriment, they have to become part of the country. That means a social security card, being able to speak English, not having to go on welfare/medicaide, the second they get here, being held accountable for breaking other laws/hospital bills....the list goes on and on. It has absolutely ZERO to do with race. Take your racebaiting elsewhere please. If you want to have a reasonable discussion I'm all for it. Try reading the thread, and providing examples for the accusations you make next time. It makes discussion more coherent and relavent.

Yes the thread started out on MS13 but there are many examples of posts in this thread that wander off on illegal immigrants instead of members of MS13.  I really don't find it neccesary to find them all and repost them but if you'd like I will, but it's to easy to go back and reread this thread instead of continually qouting it.  I agree with you about SSN, English, Welfare/Medicaid, but it's not only the illegals breaking the back of this nation it's the legal's and citizen's too.  I don't believe I was ever racebaiting I did say at the begining of my post that the thread was getting a little racist and I still say it.  I'm tired of people covering up there racism with the "well I don't mean everybody in the race" or "that doesn't apply to the legal immigrants."  If your not your not, the post didn't apply to you.  There's a reason I didn't post specific names and qoutes it wasn't so much any specific post or person as it was the general tone the thread was drifting towards.  So to break it down I felt the post was getting more into illegal immigrant bashing and less about MS13.  I wanted to throw out there that just because your an illegal immigrant doesn't make you MS13, also I'm sure there are citizens and legal aliens in MS13.  I have served with more than a few soldiers whose parents came here as illegal immigrants and one or two soldiers who came here as illegal immigrants, basically I'm voicing the fact that being an illegal immigrant doesn't make you a scourge on society, violent criminal, gang member, or any other type of negative member of society and to judge each individual by there own actions not by the actions of a group they may fall into.

Look, since I started this thread, all I'm asking for is intelligent assessments as to the risk of me walking into GANGs of armed men en route home after a SHTF.

I'm fully aware of the potential for any "ordinary Joe" civilian to become a raving lunatic...but I doubt this will be the case immediately after whatever event would force me to WALK 60 some miles home.

But as Katrina and other hurricane disasters have shown, it's not the unassociated individual American welfare whore or pimp that is the big danger. It's the ORGANIZED, "tactical" teams of young men who are armed, who are friends with each other, who have a PLAN and are interested in taking advantage of the distraction or disappearance of law enforcement to take what they can get.

As I've repeatedly stated, this is only indirectly related to immigrants, legal or not. Based on news reports, of all the organized, pre-existing GANGS out there between my work and home MS13 is the most violent, largest, and most organized. Ergo, my interest to know more.

Should I be home (or get home) before all hell breaks out, then my next worry is roving bands of armed men who might pose a threat to my neighborhood before I can organize an ad hoc defense with my neighbors (most of whom I never see since we all work).

Again, it's possible that I'll have more to worry about with my neighbors than outside gangs... but the difference will be individuals vs. organized groups. I think/hope I can "deal" with one on one encounters with my current posture/possessions.... I don't think I'm capable of dealing with one vs. a tactical team of raiders/looters/MS13 gangbangers...

Knowledge is power though. If I had a good read on the most aggressive Gang's Modus Operandi, I'd be able to make prudent purchases and precautions to avoid them or in the however unlikely event they come into my 'hood, deal with them with a prospect of winning (surviving) the encounter.

That's all. I don't really care whether they've all got Green Cards or not. I just know I drive past literally dozens of groups of Salvadoran or Hispanic looking tough hombres every day....that therefore should an EMP blast force me to walk home, I'll be walking right down the road they likely work off of, so will run into them.... all the way home.

I sure hope to God they're all decent Catholics. We'll chat, I'll tell them how to survive in a post EMP world, we'll part ways in friendship and fellowship. But what if they are NOT good Catholics, NOT friendlies?

Jus,

You raised a good point that I hadn't fully considered.  I live not far from Herndon where I understand there's a lot of gang activity and a lot of illegals.  I'm not too worried about the "regular" illegals but an organized gang like MS-13 could be problematic if SHTF -- your point is well taken.

Regarding your situation, what is your primary concern?  Is it the immediate aftermath of a SHTF event?  If so, wouldn't you know about it before the MS-13 folks can get organized?  Are you in a position where you can leave work early on short notice?  Would if be possible to bug home before MS-13 even knows there's a problem/opportunity?

If you can't leave work early, would it be possible to hole-up there for 12-18 hours until the initial panic/chaos subsides?  This would make your normal route home subject to the concerns you mentioned but how about an alternate route such as Greenway ->Toll Road -> Fairfax County Parkway -> Rt 95.  OK, it adds a LOT of miles to the trip (and a few $ in tolls) but these are all highways which should be difficult or impossible for MS-13 to shutdown and the route generally avoids areas with significant gang presence.

This thread's premise is that I won't have advance notice to a SHTF disaster.

I'm also going to assume that I won't be able to drive home - If I could drive I would and have a plan for that: I never let the tank go under half...I do have GPS and maps and fully plan to drive up 50, 66, to Skyline drive, then south to 17 before cutting back east via back roads to get home and thus avoid everyone else crammed on 28, 95, and US1.

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=429878&page=1 may give you more insight on what to expect in a bug-out (or bug-in) situation.

double-tap