Posted: 8/22/2005 4:30:37 AM EDT
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Post'em here, guys! |
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John, thanks for hosting and for the hard work. Pat's course was fantastic. Great group of instructors and shooters allowed for an experience far beyond my expectations. In addition to the standard drills, we did a number of multiple, moving shooter strings with live fire that I don't imagine many, if any, civilians would be fortunate enough to experience. The many memorable, and unprintable, quotes were worth the price of admission. Thanks. Jeff |
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I would like to thank John for putting this class together. I know the work that goes into this kind of thing, and it is much appreciated by me and the others. Thanks to Pat for doing an outstanding job with the class, and making it so much fun. Here is some info I posted in a different thread.  This is basically a mutt gun that is made up of several different brands of parts. The lower, barrel, sling plate, and bolt are Bushmaster. The LPK is from Armalite. The upper is a Mega flat top upper with the numbers engraved in it. The BC is an M16 type that I picked up from M&A Parts. Buttstock is a 6 pos. M4 style stock I picked up from a gunshow. The sling is a CQB Solutions sling. (I think they are called Spectar or something now) EOTech 511 Rev F Arms #40 BUIS Surefire M500 I put about 1300 rounds of XM193 through the rifle over 3 days. The first day had the temp around 75 degrees, and rain. The second two days had the temp over 100, and it was mostly sunny. There was a lot of fine particle sand on the range, and it managed to get on everything. The only cleaning I did, was too brush off the crud on the bolt and carrier after the 1st and 2nd day. I did apply a lot of lubricant during the class though. I had zero malfunctions to contend with, and was very happy with the overall performance of the rifle and the way it was set up. I also had zero mag issues as well. All were USGI (mixed makers) with green followers, 550 cord pulls, and pieces of rubber inner tube slipped around the bases for a better grip. I know a lot of the previous discussion has been about using iron sights first, but I was impressed with how the Eotech held up. Not only was I able make fast shots, but was also able to make accurate shots with it too. I found myself actually shooting faster then I should of, and sacrifieced a little accuracy for speed. I did tie for first place as HOS during the Qual course, but ended up choking in the end and getting first loser. The sight did its job, I just didn't. C4iGrant took first place running his US Optics 1x4 scope. He seemed very pleased with this type of scope, even though the illuminator knob fell off doing some drills on the third day. He did mention that he had difficulty using the scope during some of the prone drills. The need for proper eye relief, and unconvential shooting positions did make it harder on him. There were a few other types of sights in the class, but the vast majority of the sights were Aimpoints. There were a few other variable scopes, and EOtechs in the class. I didn't notice or hear of any problems from the different sights other then the one mentioned already. One classmate with an EOtech 552 had to replace his batteries during the class, but that was it. There was one person with an Aimpoint in an ARMS throw lever mount (not sure of the model), that had such slop in it, that the mount could be slid front to back with little effort. There were various brands of carbines out during the class. Quite a few had various malfunctions. There were several people that had malfunctions that were caused by blown primers. I saw a Colt M4 pattern rifle that had a few problems during the class. I don't recall ever hearing what was causing the problem. There was also a Colt M16 that had some issues and ended up having to have some work done to correct the problem. We also had a Marine from the WTB, running an XM4 that needed an extractor spring during day two. There were a couple of Bushmasters that had some issues to. I beleive that was due to dirty rifles. I even saw an LMT that needed a hammer to drive a stuck case out, and then later the pin that held the forward assist lever shear off. This caused the lever from the FA to get bound up in the carrier assembly. One guy with a carbine built on an Ameetec lower was having problems with the bolt locking back on an empty mag. It was determined that the threads for the lower extension had been cut wrong, and the LMT extension was sitting at an upward and to the right angle. This was causeing the BCA to drag on the inside of the tube. He didn't expereince any malfunctions, just the bolt not locking back. I'll add some gear reviews later. |
Grant had the cook off. He had just finished some drills and was standing with a group of students speaking with Pat about the last drill run. He was holding the carbine via the buttstock. The rifle was slung and hanging down, pointed between his feet. The round went into the ground right between the feet, and gave everyone a pretty good startle. Pat was standing right there and was looking at him when it happened. He agreed that there was no way Grant could of caused an ND, so the only thing left was a cook off. This happened towards the end of the 3rd day, and it definitely helped re-enforce the idea of proper muzzle discipline. Thankfully Grant wasn't hurt, and the class went on smoothly from there. |
Roger That. A guy that frequents my shop said that it happened but wouldn't say who. (guess he didn't know I knew a few who went to the course) I'm glad no one was hurt. Sounds like Pat was pushing the guys hard. This Friday I'll be a volunteer 'aggressor' (aka Simunitions bullet catcher) with the USMCs HRP (High Risk Personnel) Course at Quantico. But we'll be using M4s and M9s and can shoot back. This is gonna hurt. 
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The internals are Armalite (IIRC). I'm pretty bad about switching parts around in my rifles, and I'm pretty sure the Armalite LPK made it into this lower. We covered a lot of the basics like rifle types, sight alignment and proper use, optics, mags, ammo, etc... Shooting from Standing, Kneeling, and Prone positions. We covered assaulting, and retreating from a target. Speed and Tactical reloads of rifles and pistols. Transitions Malfunction Drills Shooting from low cover. We also managed to squeeze in some group drills. Basically moving in a single column (4 or 5 man team size), and then engaging targets from the column in different ways. The big difference between this class and others I've attended, is that Pat teaches his students to fight and win with a carbine. Other classes work on basics and fundamentals of using your carbine, this class truely focuses on fighting with a carbine. |
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"The big difference between this class and others I've attended, is that Pat teaches his students to fight and win with a carbine. Other classes work on basics and fundamentals of using your carbine, this class truely focuses on fighting with a carbine." In law enforcement, they would call that a clue! Excellent observation between what Pat does and other instructors do. |
| I'd be curious to hear what the course attendees found worked and what did not work in terms of any particular equipment (slings, buttstocks, lights, grips, rail systems, etc.). What did you wish you had that you did not have, and what did you have that did not work as you had expected to? If it did not work, then were you able to modify your particular equipment on the spot to make it work, or would you not use it again the next time? |
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I was pretty happy with my gear selection for the class. Instead of wearing my tac-vest for the class, I went with a belt only system. I started with a standard USGI web belt. Safariland 6004 holster for my G22 Blackhawk 3 pistol mag carrier Blackhawk 3 AR mag hip carrier Maxepidition drop pouch Hydrastorm system. The only thing I changed out during the class was the location of the 3 pistol mag carrier. I had it mounted on the right side of the belt, about middle line of the body. I swapped it to the left side of the belt, about middle line. sjauch was complaining about the elastic giving out on his chest rig mag carriers. I think he was using a paraclete setup. Other then him I don't recall hearing any other complaints. |
Yup, I am using a Paraclete TX-II and the elastic retention is shit. I was running and had a mag fly out. They need to use a stronger elastic that doesn't weaken after the first time you put a mag in it. I was using a Hellcat chest rig. HSGI suspenders, SOE rigger belt and a 6004 dropleg holster. |
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I got a lot out of the course and found Pat Rogers to be an excellent instructor and VERY entertaining to say the least. My favorite part about going to a shooting class is that I get to meet a lot of my customers (which is always nice). I ran two diff. weapons during the 3 day carbine section. The first day was my LMT M4 with an EOTech. This ran well (as always), but decided I would try my new Noveske 16 SPR on the second day. It had a US Optics SN4 on it. I found the SN4 to be an excellent optic as it has the chevron inside the circle style reticle. This gave me both speed and accuracy. It was difficult however to get proper eye relief on some shots and basically could not shoulder the weapon if I wanted to get the proper FOV that was need to make the shot. Both of my weapons (built from the ground up by me) ran 100% without a single malfunction of any kind. For nylon I was running the BH Strike Chest Harness. This has served me well in the past and don't have any issues with it. I wore Oakley boots, Oakley glasses, Peltor ComTac's and Hatch Operator gloves. All performed well. On the 3rd day of the class were did some drills. In one particular drill I was the point man which meant that I fired the most rounds. In the span of a couple minutes I guestimate that I dumped about 70 rounds through my weapon. Mind you that it was 105 outside and had been running the weapon hard all day (so it was already hot). During the drill I had done a speed reload and asked Pat if I could pick my mag up. He was about 3 feet to my right watching my hands as I rotated the weapon the low ready position to holding the weapon by the stock with just my right hand. The weapon was about an arms length away from me and pointing straight down. I was just about to bend down to pick up the weapon when it went off and cycled in my hand. The weapon was on safety, my finger was 6 inches + from the trigger and Pat verified that nothing had touched the trigger. The round landed directly between my two feet. The ammo that was being used was M855. So let this be a valuable lesson to you guys that think a weapon on safe and finger off the trigger is a safe weapon (as it is NOT)! The next round of drills involved more mag dumps. This is when the illumination knob popped off. I showed Pat and moved onto the next drill. On the next drill I did another mag dump and the dial came completely off!  The SN4 was still 100% useable.Pat's out brief of the class: www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=8608&page=0&vc=1&PHPSESSID=#Post8608 C4 www.GRTactical.com   Weapon used  Broken US Optics SN4 
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This was my first private class of this type after some years of .mil service, and I was very impressed by not only the caliber of the instructors, but also the quality of the students. As Pat mentioned in his AAR this class was really good and I wouldn't hesistate to take another class with any of these guys. Thanks especially to QSC for making it all happen. With regards to gear, I only have a few notes: Sling: V-Tac padded sling was the right answer for me. Comfortable, and the adjustability allows you to tighten it across your chest and thus prevent the muzzle from swaying and lasering your feet. Major plus after you see a carbine cook-off. Upper: Had GandR Tactical overnight a Stag/CMT M4 type upper to our hotel - slapped an Eotech on it and ran it for the whole course, no problem. Considering that the heat and the course of fire took out a number of carbines I was very impressed. Eotech: new optic developed an intermittent function ONLY during the unconventional prone firing positions. Replaced batteries and now seems OK. Will test further. LULA: Possessing one could have spared me cut up fingers. If you cannot take loaded mags legally in your vehicle this is pretty much a necessity to unload 30 rd magazines in a hurry. Open topped kydex holster: My 1911 was fast on transitions out of a dropped and offset holster, but also got sand coated when we were laying on our backs. Am considering something with a bit more protection. Best wishes to all, Tim |
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These vids are courtesy of JeffM: I found that clicking on them does not open them very well, please right click and save as... Right Click -- Save As -- Vid 1 Right Click -- Save As -- Vid 2 Right Click -- Save As -- Vid 3 Right Click -- Save As -- Vid 4 Right Click -- Save As -- Vid 5 Right Click -- Save As -- Vid 6 Right Click -- Save As -- Vid 7 |
. Still a great class, though.| Check this website to see when Pat has classes, www.eagtactical.com |