Posted: 10/24/2007 5:57:42 PM EDT
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I am hearing that people that have submitted FOID applications for their children under 10 years old are being told that the applications are on hold because the law "might change". If anyone knows of someone that has had this experience please contact the ISRA at 815-635-3198 |
Yeah, remember a while ago someone got one for his newborn and there was s big stink about it. Kids around here get them that young so they can be in possession of a firearm while they are out hunting with their dads. |
I thought there was an exemption built into the law for going shooting w/ a FOID holder. Or is that just for ranges. I'll have to look that one up. If it's only for the range... then yeah, I think the state needs to leave things be and let anyone get one who's parent signs off on it. |
For that matter, what purpose does the FOID serve in the first place? If I'm not mistaken, Illinois is the only state that even has such a thing. The reason I got an FOID for my 9 year old son years ago was based on info I got when I took him for a Hunter Safety course. It was explained to me that in a situation where I had firearms in the car, that a FOID carrying individual must be in the vehicle with them. For example, suppose my wife and I are traveling in our car. I have a FOID, my wife does not. We stop for gas. I go into the gas station to pay for the gas while she waits in the car. She could be charged with possession of firearms with no FOID if she is the sole occupant of the vehicle. |
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Got this from ISRA the other day. SPRINGFIELD, Ill., Oct. 24 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- The following was released today by the Illinois State Rifle Association (ISRA): Controversy has been raging for several weeks over a proposal promulgated by the Illinois State Police that would set the minimum age of issuance for Illinois Firearm Owner Identification (FOID) cards at 10 years of age. Outdoor sporting organizations, including the ISRA, oppose the adoption of the provision as it would have an adverse impact on gun safety training and youth shooting programs. On the other hand, gun control groups support the new restriction and see it as yet another means of discouraging participation in the shooting sports. Approval or denial of the proposed regulation is the responsibility of the Joint Committee on Administrative Rules (JCAR). As of the issuance of this press release, only a few days remain in the period during which the public may submit comments to JCAR regarding the proposal. Once the comment period expires, JCAR will consider all comments and will issue a ruling on the proposed age limit some time in the next several months. Although adoption of such regulations is strictly within the purview of JCAR, an investigation conducted by the ISRA has revealed that Illinois State Police Director Larry Trent unilaterally established a minimum age for FOID applicants and began denying FOID cards to citizens less than 10 years of age as early as May 2007. "Director Trent has taken it upon himself to nullify the authority of JCAR," commented ISRA Executive Director, Richard Pearson. "Last May, he issued a declaration to the FOID division staff that directed the denial of FOID cards to applicants less than 10 years of age. Since that time, the State Police have used this bogus age limit as justification to deny over 200 applications. Of course, Trent's edict has not stopped the State Police from cashing application fee checks." "The ISRA is presently consulting with its legal advisors to identify a means of relief from Trent's illegal actions," continued Pearson. "Without a foundation in law, Trent's age restriction places the State Police in violation of Section 5 of the FOID act which requires that FOID cards be issued within 30 days." --- |
Really?  Un-fucking-believable 
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A major concern that everyone seems to be overlooking here is if the ISP can skirt the legislative process and just arbitrarily set an age limit on the FOID card, what would keep them from coming back and setting it at 16, 18, 21 or let's say they decide old duffers shouldn't have firearms and they put a max. age of 60 on it??? What if they wanted to set some other regulation regarding WHO can have a FOID card?? This is bigger than just setting a minimum age limit. |
I agree 100%. This FOID business is BS. There's no reason to even have the damn thing. I remember when Illinois started issuing them, 1968, I believe. The US was in a time of much political unrest. There were problems in Illinois with the black panthers, protest over the Vietnam war and the hippies demonstrating at the democratic convention. At the time, there was much public outcry for revolution in this country. My belief is that the ISP pushed for the FOID so that they could control who bought guns. If the ISP arbitrarily starts deciding at what age someone is eligible for an FOID, something is wrong with the law. |
I have proof that it took my 50yr old friend 14months to receive his FOID. He has never even been stopped by police for so much as a traffic ticket. When I found out he had not received it I kept urging him to call and complain. Yes the FOID ACT should be abolished as it is in contravenence to the US Constitution. Expiration of a card should not create a criminal out of a law abiding citizen. What next free speech cards? Right to assemble cards? Right against illegal search and seizure cards? where does it end? |
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If people who violate the law, rob liquor stores with firearms and commit drive by shootings, were given appropriate sentences, for instance 30-40 years imprisonment, the FOID would not be necessary. If a felon is in possession of a firearm when committing a crime, they should be incarcerated for the rest of their natural life. The FOID would not be a necessary tool to eliminate one avenue for scumbags to obtain firearms if there was a deterent and if the system would properly address the problems. I know that there are other means to obtain firearms for illegal purposes, but I can think of at least one FFL in our area that would sell a firearm to Osama Bin Laden to make a buck. I believe that everyone on this thread would agree that if we eliminate the FOID a felon who obtains a firearm by any means, including from a dealer, should get some serious prison time. We need to attack the problem from more than one direction if we are to successfully eliminate the FOID. 
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I'm all in favor of enforcing existing laws against felons who purchase firearms illegally, but I fail to understand how the FOID prevents criminals from buying a gun. When purchasing from a retail establishment, a background check and waiting period must be observed anyway. When selling to a private party, a record of the transaction must be maintained. Crime statistics indicate that criminals buy guns through black market or straw sales, as a rule. They do not tend to purchase them through legal channels. They do not want a paper trail connected to guns they plan to use in crimes. Does a lack of FOID's present a problem with firearms sales in other states? |
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It's a whole lot tougher to get a FOID than a driver license. They check your criminal history and verify your photo matches the last FOID photo to some degree. If the photo does not match your drivers license, I would suspect they are not going to give you a FOID. If your driver license is a fake, it won't be in the computer system. Without the FOID, what do we use for photo ID to establish who is purchasing the firearm ? There are thousands of phony state ID cards and driver licenses floating around. Governor George Ryan could tell you a little bit about that. Let's say we do use our driver licenses for ID. If I get a speeding ticket and post my license as bond, then I see that AR-15 in the gun shop I want to buy, do I have to run down to the courthouse to pay my fine before I can buy the rifle ? That doesn't give me a chance to fight the ticket in court if the deal on the rifle was too good to pass up before it's gone. If I have to get a state ID card to carry along with the driver license, I still have to have two cards. How would the waiting period change under the Brady Act ? Won't the waiting periods change ? Anyone who moved to Illinois from another state want to wade in on this one ? I am not a big fan of the FOID myself, but what will we replace it with ? In my opinion there should be no waiting periods, no FOID, no restrictions of any kind. If you want the firearm, lay down your money and leave the store with it. If you commit a crime with a firearm, you should go to prison and break rocks the rest of your life. If you kill anyone without legal justification, you should get the electric chair. I don't see Illinois punishing criminals in the near future; it would be politically incorrect. If you want to get a FOID for your 3 year old kid and you send in your money, there should be no problem getting it. Federal law already regulates who can purchase a firearm anyway. I haven't read anything about any kids under 10 committing a drive by shooting or bank robbery. The only thing that comes to mind is that in some restaurants kids under 10 eat free. 
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If I remember correctly, the last time I was in the Secretary of State facility to renew my DL, there was a sign indicating that FOID's were not acceptable as ID for obtaining a new DL. It might have said firearm permits, which may apply to drivers from out of state. It would be ironic if the State of Illinois didn't even recognize their own state issued ID. |
www.cyberdriveillinois.com/departments/drivers/drivers_license/acceptable_id.html UNACCEPTABLE IDENTIFICATION Video Club Membership Cards Firearms Owner ID That proves it folks. Even the state says the FOID is worthless! 
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There is a provision in the law to repeal the FOID. You would need ~ 150,000 signatures to put the issue on the ballot. Why hasn't ISRA or NRA taken this up? Are they afraid it won't pass? So what if it doesn't the first time or the first ten. Collect the signatures and get the question on the ballot every single election until it does. (430 ILCS 65/16) (from Ch. 38, par. 83‑16) Sec. 16. When 2% of the number of registered voters in the State desire to pass upon the question of whether the General Assembly should repeal this Act regulating the acquisition, possession and transfer of firearms and firearm ammunition, they shall, at least 78 days before a regular election to be held throughout the State, file in the office of the State Board of Elections, a petition directed to the Board in accordance with the general election law. The petition shall be composed of county petitions from each of the counties throughout the State and each county petition shall contain the signatures of at least 2% of the number of registered voters in the county. The petition shall request that the question "Should the General Assembly repeal the Act entitled 'An Act relating to the acquisition, possession and transfer of firearms and firearm ammunition, to provide a penalty for the violation thereof and to make an appropriation in connection therewith,' approved August 3, 1967, as amended?" be submitted to the voters of the State at the next ensuing State‑wide election at which such question may be acted upon. (Source: P.A. 81‑1489.) |
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I witnessed an incident last night that I wouldn't have believed if I hadn't seen it. I was in a gun shop and a customer came in to see her uncle, who I shoot with on Thursday nights on the gun shop range. The customer is originally from Illinois, but now resides in Boston, where she is a sworn, badge carrying, FBI agent. She expressed interest in shooting with us but didn't have range mandated FMJ ammo for her issued .40 service weapon. She attempted to purchase ammo from the shop, but was denied because she didn't possess a FOID. I was told that there are no exceptions for out of state LEO's. I was also told that Chicago police may not legally possess any handguns other than their duty weapons unless they were purchased and annually registered prior to the 1980's something cut-off date. As well, LEO's must also abide by the waiting period unless buying a weapon with a department letterhead. I was also informed that Illinois LEO's must maintain FOID's or will be suspended if their FOID expires, as they would be in violation of the FOID law. |
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sleepercaprice1, 720 ILCS 5/24-3 (A) (g) (1) specifically exempts law enforcement officers from the waiting period, but most gun shop owners don't care and cops wait anyway. The FOID act, specifically, 430 ILCS 65/2 (c) specifically exempts law enforcement officials from the FOID requirement to posses or purchase firearms or ammunition provided they are "engaged in the operation of their official duties". There is a lot of vagueness in the FOID portion of the law and in my experience most gun shop owners err on the side of caution. |
I'm not sure what store you were at, but the one I frequent is the same. I have seen countless LEO's denied sevice over the years. But, that's pretty much what they get, IMHO. Agencies have been trying to get this shop in trouble for years, and the shop follows the letter of the law. No exceptions. |
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They should have sold her the ammunition. Some gun shop owners confuse a law enforcement officer with a firearms regulation policy maker and jerk them around. The officer is not a politician, they cannot pass laws or make policy. On the other hand, if she wanted to purchase a firearm and walk out of the store with it the same day, she would have to provide the obligatory letter mandated by the feds. That's the way to win the political war, alienate another firearm owner !
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The shop should have sold ammo the the FBI agent. However, once again I might point out that law enforcement officers are the same as you and me, meaning they are civilians. They are not Federal Agents and they are not Active Duty Military (with exception of some LEO's whom may be active/inactive Reservists). Given the fact that the vast majority of law enforcement agencies in Illinois do not support our RKBA, ISP as an example, they should have to wait in the same line that we all do even though many individual Police Officers do not support the views of their respective departments. ISP again as an example not only wish to impede your Second Amendment rights, but now your First Amendment rights if you speak out against elitist Legislators that wish to disarm the good people of Illinois. If we were greeted by a more 2A friendly law enforcement community in Illinois, then I would be ok with IL LEO bypassing the waiting period. But just like I couldn't understand why local police departments needed bayonet lugs during the AW ban, I don't see why they should have special privledges that we do not. Of course I will get flamed, I accept this reality as par for the course for having an opinion that veers out of the rules of what is allowed in conservative circles. Those who actually understand the history of the FOID act will know it was a conjoined effort between ISP and the Illinois Legislature at the time to keep guns out of the hands of Blacks as a reaction the 1960's race riots in Chicago. There has never been a more blatent violation of civil rights post 1964 Civil Rights Act than the FOID act. If organizations put up the most minute resistance to the micturating of our constitutional rights, ISP as an example I would be more willing to actually trust the authorities with special rights that us serfs don't have. Unfortunately for ISP, they have become an almost full-blown KGB type outfit with their intimidation of law-abiding citizens that simply greivance their government. The FOID act is merely a symptom of the bigger problem and without anyone willing to "question" it, it will only get worse. I know without a doubt if I were an ISP Detective and was told to go out and intimidate people who ISP noted "lived in a remote location of McHenry Co" I would have quit on the spot. Leads one to believe these individuals enjoy the rush of power and intimidation more than they believe in the oath they swear to uphold the Constitution. I especially like the part that suggests that anyone who lives in a rural location and owns guns MUST be some sort of Davidian type cultists. Law abiding sheep only live in Cook County with their hand out waiting for the government to provide everything for them, including thought. This is not an anti-cop rant. Even average gun-writers like Jeff Knox are starting to acknowledge the problems with the militarizing of America's law enforcment agencies., another problem our forefathers warned us about. The average police officer that appears in the media in this day and age is indistinguishable from active duty military in terms of dress. The necessity of ACU's or DCU's in a police officer role is beyond me but one would surmise it is to send an intimidating image to the public. It is partially that and part ego-boost for those invloved. Like I said these things, FOID included are only a symptom of the bigger problem. God help us if Hillary wins in '08. If she does, proverbial train cars will be coming for any white christian conservative heterosexual armed male in this country. When Hillary is elected by the sheep and the neutered, things like the FOID act will seem like a mere inconvenience compared to what is to come. I have had a FOID since I was 11 years old. People who have been involved in the shooting sports in IL for many generations know that getting your kid a FOID even though he or she is too young to buy a gun, is more of a way of using the infringement of our rights as a family tradition. In the true spirit of ISP, they have decided they know what is best for us and rule like fascists. |
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Wayne, i agree with you 100 % everyone should have to abide by the laws no matter what you are; as far as I know we all put on pants the same way so there should be no differences to any agencies or individuals! Then maybe we would not have all these fu?ked up laws! |
Fixed that. For something as important as say... one's LIVELIHOOD... it would be reasonable for an FFL to KNOW the laws that apply to how and to whom he may sell ammunition and firearms. Not knowing the law and therefore denying a sale isn't erring on the side of caution, it's nothing more than common ignorance. I think the ISP and/or ATF should give a TEST on simple firearms related laws pertaining to their business to FFL's who operate a store. They should require a passing grade to be allowed to remain in business. Driver's have to get re-tested for driver's licenses every 4 years or so. Wouldn't it make sense to make sure our firearms dealers are aware of the law, too? Just food for thought. 
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I picked up a lower at the New Berlin show a couple of years ago from an FFL who has an SOT and is a LEO. He should know what he is doing, right? Guess what? He made me wait. I transferred a shotgun through another FFL who is a state parole agent and once again, I got to wait a day. I agree that ignorance of the law is the problem. If anyone knows an FFL in the greater Springfield area who knows what the fuck they are doing please let me know. |
So what do the other people in the 48 states that do not have a FOID type card do? What does repealing the FOID have to do with the waiting periods? It is set by the state law. In MO and IN you can go in and have your nics check pay your cash and out the door you go. What is wrong with that. The waiting period with the brady act was abolished with the NICS system. |
Several years ago the Grayslake Police Department conducted a bogus sting operation at the Lake County Gun Show which ultimately led to the shutting down of one of the country's largest gunshows. A Grayslake Cop stopped at a table and bought some ammo from a dealer. The dealer requested a FOID from the buyer, which the buyer produced. The dealer sold the ammo to the buyer who then walked away and came back seconds later to purchase more ammo. Having JUST SEEN the buyers FOID, the dealer thought nothing of it and sold him the ammo. Well, the buyer turned out to be an undercover Grayslake Cop who was doing the bidding of the Mayor and the local anti-gun save the children crowd. The dealer was arrested and the show was subsequently shut down. Recently an ex-FFL was arrested in Mundelein by the Mundelein PD for "gunrunning" after making a perfectly legal person to person sale to an undercover Mundelein Cop. This list can go on for days. You may view it as ignorance NPD but FFL holders are terrorized by law enforcement on a non-stop basis. I know of one and only one FFL holder in the area that has not been harrassed by the Police, to the best of my knowledge but I do know that one of our IL HTF members was stopped in his vehicle by the local Cops with a cased and unloaded handgun in his vehicle and the Cop conducting the traffic stop was clueless as to the law regarding firearm transportation. The matter as I understand it was resolved when the Police called the local FFL holder, who is also a local politician and the matter was resolved. Ironically, the IL HTF member who was detained, I believe is studying to be a Police Officer. There should be less government, not more. We don't need any more "nannying" on the part of our government. An FFL holder runs an independent business in an ever-shrinking free market because folks wish the government to regulate business to death. A test is yet another nanny-state expense that would have to be paid for in some sense by taxpayers because you may feel that the gun buying process is cumbersome. We cannot and should not legislate good business sense. If an FFL holder does not meet your expectations, you can simply move on to another, the premise of a free market place. My food for thought is that if you want to see FFL holders less paranoid, you, npd as an insider can urge your fellow law enforcement officers to either refuse the orders of their superiors and stop the harrassment of gun dealers, which is an almost daily event not only here in IL but nation-wide. Or, the profit and probable cause machine can simply be shut down. FFL holders are only trying to cover their asses because they have been terrorized, financially ruined and beaten down by law enforcement and government alike. A basic law of physics is that for every action, there is a re-action. FFL holders are trying to support their families, legally and are being terrorized by the likes of Michael Bloomberg, the ISP and so-on. I heard an Army Ranger who was part of the Black Hawk Down fiasco, who took a round in the hip for his country plead to the likes of Barrack Obama and Kirk Dillard to not pass SB1195, all the while under the physical presence of ISP troopers in the room who had cased "assault weapons" in-case the "on the fringe" right-wing militants staged a revolution in the rules committee. A war hero, intimitaded by his own government and the ISP. Truely sad. Just a little more food for thought. |
There is still a 24 hr waiting period for long guns and 72 hrs for handguns. |
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I ask: After all these years of having the FOID here, if is such a great thing . Why haven't other states adopted the same policy ? It does date back to
Still Jesse and Pfleger rant around Chuck's and DSA disarming the innocent, and perhaps inadvertently creating more victims with their fanatical ravings. Remember Tank Johnson's charges? Yes I agree he wasn't brilliant in doing the things he did, but on top of the charges he had they hit him with the violation of not having a FOID. It's yet another small loophole Illinois has that people from out of state that move here are not familiar with. I'd be in favor of the FOID if it gave registered owners some benefit as not "cooling off period" or something similar. But that's not really a big issue if you already own some firearms. But if you let your FOID lapse and you still own firearms or ammo then your suddenly in violation. I wonder if CAGE units will eventually look thru the non-renewed database and start knocking on house doors checking to see if all was disposed of. An FOID is a REAL stumbling block to a first time purchaser. You have to go thru the initial background check and then the actual cooling off period when you finally get the card and make the purchase. It's a real world and there's some people in this state that have suddenly decided that they may have a need to defend themselves thru events such as house burglary, muggings, a neighborhood starting to be hit by a serial rapist etc. . A 5 - 6 week waiting period can really stink if they suddenly found themselves in that situation. Like I said before the secretary of states office (drivers license bureau) will not accept this as proof of identification. What does that say? it's not thought of as a VALID ID. |
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npd I can see your point but be it ignorance or whatever there are so many frickin laws especially throughout all the states and even within illinois itself with many of the counties/communities having their own laws you can not keep up with it, so I can understand when shops generalize to the safety of error because you never know who the heck your selling a firearm to. The ATF book on laws in this country is over 2in thick and small print on 8x11 sheets, my guess there has to 10's of thousands of laws in this book! And as to selling to LEO's, agents and whatever if the firearm is for duty and ok'd by the department by letter from the Chief I can see not having to wait; but for personal use, everyone should have to follow the laws. |
I am shocked to see this suggestion. I think the last thing we need is one more way to shut down gun dealers. The ATF has shut down 80% in the last 10 years or so. Making someone wait one extra day or denying a sale does not violate any laws. As far as FFL's following the law, that doesn't keep them from being sued out of business or harassed by the press. Look at Chuck's gun shop, constantly being protested, often villified by the press, sued by the City of Chicago, I don't know of any illegal activity that happened there. Just following the law is risky enough. Look at Midway, AIM Surplus etc. and all the BS it takes to get ammo shipped to IL. Selling ammo across state lines is legal; AIM posted here that the reason they require the ID is because of a 2 million dollar lawsuit they lost about mail order ammo sales. They were not breaking the law and it doesn't matter. Lib judges are ignoring the Lawful Commerce in Arms Act, one in Gary, IN; one in NYC. The law being on your side doesn't pay your legal fees for frivolous lawsuits. |
I agree with Gunman for duty weapons, there should be no waiting period. I know the NFA rule book can only be printed off the ATF website, I'm wondering if all regulation books are that way now? Seems like they make it more cumbersome all the time but in defense of ATF, they are probably saving a ton in paper costs which result in less tax money being spent which I support. |
Fortunately, Jackson and his pal Pfleger simply do not represent the majority of African Americans in this country. I will even go so far as to say that there are more Blacks who are annoyed by them than support them. The sad truth is that people like Jackson and Sharpton have no interest in seeing Blacks advance themselves. If they did, it would but them out of business. I recently met an older black lady in a very rough part of Chicago who worked her entire life for the gas company. She confided in me that she has no choice but to break the gun laws in Chicago because the neighborhood she has lived in for 30 plus years has become riddled with gangbangers and drug dealers. This hard working nice old lady who busted her ass to pay off her house and did things the way we are told to do it, hard work, responsibilty etc is made into an instant criminal for simply defending her life and home. That sucks. She is a victim of the FOID act, Chicago gun laws and people like Jackson and Sharpton who make excuses for the thugs that threaten her. God puts you where you need to be for a reason and I got to see some really good folks being crapped on by their government and neighbors. I commend the old woman for handling it as well as she does, I would be much angrier then she is. |