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Posted: 3/25/2006 9:41:11 AM EDT
I am not at all fluent in the geography of the South Side of Chicago. Is Robbins not it's own municipality outside of Chicago proper? Did anyone else see on the news last night the interview with the family from Robbins, where the Chicago PD trashed their home looking for a drug dealer that hadn't lived there in years?

Just how can the Chicago Police Department invade the homes of people who do not live in Chicago? Does that mean they can serve warrants and kick down doors in Palatine and Barrington too?

WTF?
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 2:40:27 PM EDT
On duty officers can serve warrants (search or arrest) anywhere in the state as long as it is pursuant to a crime committed within their own jurisdiction.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 8:22:50 PM EDT
What npd said.

If it was Chi-town PoPo, they were probably "escorted" or assisted by Robbins PD - or at least they were notified in advance of what was going to be happening.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 8:53:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By npd233:
On duty officers can serve warrants (search or arrest) anywhere in the state as long as it is pursuant to a crime committed within their own jurisdiction.



(Not questioning the validity of this) but where does that authority come from?
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 12:36:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tim84K10:

Originally Posted By npd233:
On duty officers can serve warrants (search or arrest) anywhere in the state as long as it is pursuant to a crime committed within their own jurisdiction.



(Not questioning the validity of this) but where does that authority come from?



725 ILCS 5/107‑4
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 6:48:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tango7:
What npd said.

If it was Chi-town PoPo, they were probably "escorted" or assisted by Robbins PD - or at least they were notified in advance of what was going to be happening.



No Robbins Officer was there. Robbins PD was not even notified.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 6:48:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By npd233:
On duty officers can serve warrants (search or arrest) anywhere in the state as long as it is pursuant to a crime committed within their own jurisdiction.



That's scary. Good to know the Constitution is alive and well. Isn't that what the KGB used to do?
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 8:29:46 AM EDT
Yikes! I don't like the implications of this.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 8:30:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By patriot73:

Originally Posted By Tango7:
What npd said.

If it was Chi-town PoPo, they were probably "escorted" or assisted by Robbins PD - or at least they were notified in advance of what was going to be happening.



No Robbins Officer was there. Robbins PD was not even notified.



I grew up in Posen, about 4 blocks from the edge of Robbins. I think that Robbins PD has a car or two, but I wouldn't exactly consider them a force to be reckoned with.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 8:42:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2006 8:53:36 AM EDT by npd233]

Originally Posted By patriot73:

Originally Posted By npd233:
On duty officers can serve warrants (search or arrest) anywhere in the state as long as it is pursuant to a crime committed within their own jurisdiction.



That's scary. Good to know the Constitution is alive and well. Isn't that what the KGB used to do?



Who's supposed to do it then? You don't seem too well versed on the Constitution. Doesn't the 4th amendment mention something about warrants? If they had a search warrant - they weren't looking for a person, they were looking for evidence of a crime - thus the reason they looked everywhere.

The moral of the story is: If you don't want your house turned upside down by police executing a search warrant, don't let drug dealers hang out in your house.

caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment04/
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 10:13:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By patriot73:
I am not at all fluent in the geography of the South Side of Chicago. Is Robbins not it's own municipality outside of Chicago proper? Did anyone else see on the news last night the interview with the family from Robbins, where the Chicago PD trashed their home looking for a drug dealer that hadn't lived there in years?

Just how can the Chicago Police Department invade the homes of people who do not live in Chicago? Does that mean they can serve warrants and kick down doors in Palatine and Barrington too?

WTF?



Speaking of kicking doors in have you seen Dallas Swat on cable every time they do a raid they rip out doors windows walls with chains and hooks on there two apc seems like a bit of over kill
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 10:43:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2006 10:59:26 AM EDT by U_Down_Wit_OPP]

Originally Posted By npd233:

Who's supposed to do it then? You don't seem too well versed on the Constitution. Doesn't the 4th amendment mention something about warrants? If they had a search warrant - they weren't looking for a person, they were looking for evidence of a crime - thus the reason they looked everywhere.

The moral of the story is: If you don't want your house turned upside down by police executing a search warrant, don't let drug dealers hang out in your house.

caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment04/


I agree and disagree with that line of thinking at the same time.

Part of me knows that the whole "search warrant" process is often times a sad, rubber-stamp joke. The whole idea of judges signing off on warrants was to prevent crap like this from happening. If the LE's took a warrant to a judge that was to be executed on the known "past residence" of a wanted person but his presence at the dwelling hadn't been verified in three years, that judge should have sent it back on the basis of flimsy information to prevent precisely this from happening.
Shoddy police work combined with lazy judicial oversight can adversely impact very honest people when the "hunches" of cops are codified with bona-fide warrants but turn out to be incorrect.

Presuming my grasp of the (limited) facts is accurate, we are talking about body of information on this suspect that utilizes 3 year old information?
Anyone moved into a new place in the past 3 years?
Do you think that it's kosher for cops to be kicking in your door based on who lived there three years prior to you moving in?

Of course, there’s the real possibility that the LE DID do their legwork and DID verify the wanted individual as being a resident of that particular dwelling but just to happened to kick in the door on a day when he wasn’t there, leaving a degree of deniability for the person whose name is on the lease.

But then there's that side of me that just never seems to have these problems with LE nor do any of my friends, but people I’ve known always seem to he having such troubles by virtue of the lifestyle they've chosen for themselves and the company they keep...
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 11:25:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By npd233:

Originally Posted By patriot73:

Originally Posted By npd233:
On duty officers can serve warrants (search or arrest) anywhere in the state as long as it is pursuant to a crime committed within their own jurisdiction.



That's scary. Good to know the Constitution is alive and well. Isn't that what the KGB used to do?



Who's supposed to do it then? You don't seem too well versed on the Constitution. Doesn't the 4th amendment mention something about warrants? If they had a search warrant - they weren't looking for a person, they were looking for evidence of a crime - thus the reason they looked everywhere.

The moral of the story is: If you don't want your house turned upside down by police executing a search warrant, don't let drug dealers hang out in your house.

caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment04/



npd, I don't expect you to bite that hand that feeds you believe me. But your blatant attack on my knowledge of Constitutionality, is simply unfounded and based on the emotion I evoke from you when I question the actions of your brothers in arms. I did not attack you on a personal level, so I would ask for you to show me a little respect, as I do you.

For future reference, Amendment 4 of the United States Constitution reads as follows:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

So yes, it does mention "something about warrants in there." However, the problem is that the Chicago PD crossed into another jurisdiction, without notifying the Robbins PD (to the best of my knowledge, it is pure hearsay) and ransacked a home for over an hour before producing a Search Warrant for an individual that the currents occupants never knew. The alleged "perp" had not resided at said address for over two years. All the while, side arms pointed at toddlers. Now, obviously npd you know more of the law than myself, it is your business, and I believe you are probably well versed in your profession. But do you not see a problem here?

In this day and age is it not SOP to notify the agency that has jurisdiction where the mission is to take place?


Kinda reminds me of listening to Politicians claim they are not trying to take away people's hunting rifles when they pursue a ban on "rapid fire, multiple target, bullet hose, black evil, machine gun, baby killing assault rifles.

I guess these days authority can make a Constitutional Amendment say anything they need it to to serve the greater good they have selected for us.


I have no problem with what you do, don't be so quick to defend something that if picked apart by legal counsel would put you in the trick bag.

I hope to meet you at a Blastfest, I hear you can bump fire a 1911, I gotta see that!
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 11:28:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By U_Down_Wit_OPP:

Originally Posted By npd233:

Who's supposed to do it then? You don't seem too well versed on the Constitution. Doesn't the 4th amendment mention something about warrants? If they had a search warrant - they weren't looking for a person, they were looking for evidence of a crime - thus the reason they looked everywhere.

The moral of the story is: If you don't want your house turned upside down by police executing a search warrant, don't let drug dealers hang out in your house.

caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment04/


I agree and disagree with that line of thinking at the same time.

Part of me knows that the whole "search warrant" process is often times a sad, rubber-stamp joke. The whole idea of judges signing off on warrants was to prevent crap like this from happening. If the LE's took a warrant to a judge that was to be executed on the known "past residence" of a wanted person but his presence at the dwelling hadn't been verified in three years, that judge should have sent it back on the basis of flimsy information to prevent precisely this from happening.
Shoddy police work combined with lazy judicial oversight can adversely impact very honest people when the "hunches" of cops are codified with bona-fide warrants but turn out to be incorrect.

Presuming my grasp of the (limited) facts is accurate, we are talking about body of information on this suspect that utilizes 3 year old information?
Anyone moved into a new place in the past 3 years?
Do you think that it's kosher for cops to be kicking in your door based on who lived there three years prior to you moving in?

Of course, there’s the real possibility that the LE DID do their legwork and DID verify the wanted individual as being a resident of that particular dwelling but just to happened to kick in the door on a day when he wasn’t there, leaving a degree of deniability for the person whose name is on the lease.

But then there's that side of me that just never seems to have these problems with LE nor do any of my friends, but people I’ve known always seem to he having such troubles by virtue of the lifestyle they've chosen for themselves and the company they keep...



Your points are valid as well. I personally have never had a bad LEO experience. But I know several people who have. One town over from where I live an LEO pulled over a young girl and rapoed her on the hood of her car. Not so long ago an ISP Trooper got busted for making two teenagers strip and urinate in a drainage ditch.

So it happens. I guarntee it is the vast minority of Cops that are bad, but you can always find a turd in a rose garden.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 9:04:55 PM EDT
You didn't post much more info on the story in the first place so I'm going on limited info. There's always two sides to a story. The "victim" usually leaves out most of the pertinent info to make their role sound better than it actually was.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 11:06:09 PM EDT
Ummm, search warrants are served everyday in other jurisdictions by other agencies all day long. I have been on search warrants in other towns where that town was never notified. Robbins is about as poor a town as they come, there is always a chance of a dirty cop tipping off the suspect. But reading some of the posts here have now reinforced the reason I have not been on here in awhile. I go on message boards to get away from work, not to have to keep on defending my profession time and time again for a very small percentage of LEO's that make the News doing something wrong.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 11:10:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By K9Copper:



Long time, no see.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 2:22:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By K9Copper:
Ummm, search warrants are served everyday in other jurisdictions by other agencies all day long. I have been on search warrants in other towns where that town was never notified. Robbins is about as poor a town as they come, there is always a chance of a dirty cop tipping off the suspect. But reading some of the posts here have now reinforced the reason I have not been on here in awhile. I go on message boards to get away from work, not to have to keep on defending my profession time and time again for a very small percentage of LEO's that make the News doing something wrong.



Of course. Pardon me for questioning the Police. Forgive me for initially asking a question that I really knew nothing about. I forget, I am a mere subject and Police are beyond question in our "free nation"

I honestly started this post with a question, but ANYTIME you question the constitutionality or merit of the actions of the Police, you are attacked.

I forgot Sir, I am a mere Peasant. Forgive me, I will return to the fields. I will never question again.


You guys need to take a look at your attitudes. This is why you have to keep defending your job tiome and time again. When large groups of people criticize you for the same thing for years at a time, chances are good that the people aren't wrong, but you are.

Again, like I had to explain to npd, like I have to explain to all Cops that are overly sensitive when questioned, this is not a personal attack on you, I am sure you are a good guy. But you are a Cop in a free country (so they say) and you are not above question, but almost 100% of the time, Cops think they are above question.

Most people in this day and age have little to no faith in our judiciial system and most people don't trust and/or like the police. I know, I know, just like the dentist, no one likes a cop until they need one.

I have never needed a Cop. I highly doubt I ever will.

This thread all started with a simple question. You and your pal npd are not above question. Nor are your pals that ransacked someones home for drugs are not above question. You work for us, we pay you.

I just did my quarterly 941 fed and state tax return, so your paycheck is on the way. I bust my friggin ass so you guys can go kick doors down and chase your tails in the un-winable war on drugs.


And all I did was ask a question. I'll ask Lawyers from now on.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 5:43:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2006 5:44:23 AM EDT by racecar]
This daily eruption was sponsored by



Deep seated resentment of authority brought on by a feeling of powerlessness in the face of a world not to his liking.

Stay tuned for "It's not personal" and "I'm right and you're and asshole."

The hits just keep coming.


JR
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 6:33:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2006 6:38:06 AM EDT by silascobb]
Can't we all just get along?


Originally Posted By K9Copper:
Ummm, search warrants are served everyday in other jurisdictions by other agencies all day long. I have been on search warrants in other towns where that town was never notified. Robbins is about as poor a town as they come, there is always a chance of a dirty cop tipping off the suspect. But reading some of the posts here have now reinforced the reason I have not been on here in awhile. I go on message boards to get away from work, not to have to keep on defending my profession time and time again for a very small percentage of LEO's that make the News doing something wrong.



I was wonderin' where you disappeared to K9Copper! I don't think I've attacked LEOs yet . . . today.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 9:15:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2006 9:27:29 AM EDT by K9Copper]
Patriot, you just reinforced what I said. Gotta chill a bit, I said nothing demeaning to you. Funny, it was some LEO's that were trying to inform you on what happens in the real world and what is legal, but you jump on us, hmmm. Let's see, what would make me think you might have a biad against Police in this post:

Just how can the Chicago Police Department invade the homes of people who do not live in Chicago?


Isn't that what the KGB used to do?

I guess these days authority can make a Constitutional Amendment say anything they need it to to serve the greater good they have selected for us.


Pardon me for questioning the Police. Forgive me for initially asking a question that I really knew nothing about. I forget, I am a mere subject and Police are beyond question in our "free nation"


You admit it is a subject you don't know much about, YET you want to crusify LEO's that are trying to explain what is going on.

You guys need to take a look at your attitudes. This is why you have to keep defending your job tiome and time again.
Nope, we have to do it cause people like you keep on jumping on bandwagons without knowing the full story.

When large groups of people criticize you for the same thing for years at a time, chances are good that the people aren't wrong, but you are.
That is a nice BLANKETED statement.

I have never needed a Cop. I highly doubt I ever will.
Most people never think they will, funny how many times I responded to a 911 call and they couldn't be HAPPIER to see me. That is the funny thing, most people that think they have no use for the Police for some reason still call us in emergencies, hmmmm...

This thread all started with a simple question. You and your pal npd are not above question. Nor are your pals that ransacked someones home for drugs are not above question. You work for us, we pay you.
How can I argue with such a mature and concise statement. It is amazing how well you know me and NPD, you got us. If I work for you, and you pay us, can I have a raise, or do you want your $0.25 back, I'll gladly give you a refund. I'll even send you free tinfoil so you can add to your hat and make a suit
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 10:40:37 AM EDT
Spare us the tragedy Oh, Shakespeare! You missed your true calling - you should have been a stage actor!


Originally Posted By patriot73:

Most people in this day and age have little to no faith in our judiciial system and most people don't trust and/or like the police. I know, I know, just like the dentist, no one likes a cop until they need one.



Do you ever speak just for yourself, or do you always frame your personal views with a blanket statement incorporating everyone else? "Most people... " or "Everyone knows... "

I happen to like my dentist and his staff. MOST people I encounter do like the police. I can speak with some amount of credibility on that precise subject since I've been encountering people while uniformed as a police officer for about 11 years now. By far and away the VAST majority of people like the police. Those who I've encountered that don't, feel that way usually because one of three reasons:
(1) they've been caught doing something criminal at some point in their lives
(2) they have some serious issues with being able to safely operate their motor vehicles
(3) they've been taught their dislike by parents who have previously experienced either (1), (2) or both.


I have never needed a Cop. I highly doubt I ever will.

Coincidently, I feel the same way. If the time comes I need help from someone, I sure hope it's a cop that answers the call.


This thread all started with a simple question. You and your pal npd are not above question. Nor are your pals that ransacked someones home for drugs are not above question. You work for us, we pay you.


Is anyone above question? Of course not! Why limit it to public servants? Are YOU above question? You act like it - when I or other officers start giving answers you don't want to hear, you tell us how wrong we are! If you weren't in that house when it was searched, don't own it, aren't related to them, or are their lawyer, you don't have a dog in the fight, and you're just like every other MMQB that opens their mouth.


I just did my quarterly 941 fed and state tax return, so your paycheck is on the way. I bust my friggin ass so you guys can go kick doors down and chase your tails in the un-winable war on drugs.


I don't believe that you are actually a user of drugs, since I do not know you personally I cannot say. So we should give up the fight since it's too hard? Sort of like how you don't think it's worth the effort to try to fight the efforts of those who would seize our guns, and would rather complain about it to others rather than do something proactive?

You do not pay one red cent of my salary so that argument is not only moot, it's plain ignorant. Did you know I actually work to earn that paycheck, and I pay taxes too? Who'da thunk?


And all I did was ask a question. I'll ask Lawyers from now on.


Our answers are free, and while you may not like them or agree with them, they are at least OFFERED for your perusal. If you want someone to tell you only what you want to hear, you'll have to pay for it.


Ball's in your court Mr. McEnroe
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 10:47:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By racecar:
This daily eruption was sponsored by



Deep seated resentment of authority brought on by a feeling of powerlessness in the face of a world not to his liking.

Stay tuned for "It's not personal" and "I'm right and you're and asshole."

The hits just keep coming.


JR





SIG LINE!!
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 10:48:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2006 10:48:37 AM EDT by npd233]
doubletap oops.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 8:10:31 PM EDT
It's all yours

JR
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 8:28:48 PM EDT
about time someone besides cook county is in the paper or on the news...thanks cpd for taking the spotlight off us for once...even though i give them a thumbs up for starting the demolition of a house that was probably already falling down...i am new here so i wont start off arguing or defending the l.e. community i do enough of that day to day with bleeding hearted liberal in laws...

bill
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 2:03:54 AM EDT
Guys, it all started because I questioned the motives of the Police and you two shit a brick over that. Of course people are going to act like they like you to your face, you are authority beyond question.

I'm sorry you have to defend your job k9copper, that's what happens when you take a civil servant job, especially as a Cop.

And no npd, for the record I don't use drugs but there are more people that do than you and your pals will ever be able to chase down. Yes, it is time to give up, it is way beyond lost and a massive waste of again, my tax money. If you wish for your taxes to go to a failing drug war, have at it.

I'm sure you are both good guys, but typical in the sense that you feel your authority is beyond question. It is amazing to me, and I am sure others how you are "tired of defending your job." Society as a whole entrusts you to "protect" them and you are tired of answering to them?

I like the police, for the most part but like I said have never needed one to come to my house and fill out paperwork after a crime has been committed.

So you two are the ones, imho that need to chill out a bit and realize this is a free country (or so we like to fool ourselves into believing) where authority SHOULD be questioned regularly.

If it weren't for guys like me, you guys wouldn't be able to carry guns at work and we would all be singing God Save the Queen as they raised the British Flag for a Soccer game.

I do wonder though, what will you guys do when Blago and Daley give you guys the edict to go around and confiscate everyones black rifles? Will you still be fighting for gun rights then npd, or will you be simply "following orders?"

Hey, I'm sure you are both good guys and good cops and God knows, we do need authority, order and Police. I hope to meet you guys at the range, and I'll buy the first round of beers someday. But I will always question authority, it's what makes me an American. I have a tendancy to get fired up and I love to argue.

Stay safe guys, and if at all possible, let's all stay out of Robbins!

Ya know, funny thing is I have lived here all my life and every so often I will here about a town I have never heard of, like Robbins. Never heard of Robbins before this week.

PS.....I am taking this year off but I do also have a small gun show business and I do give discounts to Police and do have several, and I mean several LEO pals from the gunshows. If you guys ever need mags, parts, gear, etc, I'm there for ya.

Next year we may be selling body armor as well for those nifty war on drugs raids.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 3:05:13 AM EDT
And, if i've been an asshole about this, I apologize. I have been bitchy lately. Hopefully I will make it down to Buffalo tomorrow for some positive mental reinforcement.

npd and k9copper, you guys do a good job. I'm behind you guys.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 1:16:15 PM EDT
To get back to the toppic, we as Chicago police officers are Certified by the state of Illinois, that means we have jurisdiction in ALL parts of Illinois. Now, it is not usual to go into a town outside of Chicago but it does happen and while I wasn't there I am sure Robbins was at the very least notified at the time of execution of the warrant. If we were going into another state, I would have a big problem with that,unless it was a Hot pursuite type of thing, Chasing someone into Indianna for example and I know from experience that the chase would be called off.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 10:47:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/30/2006 10:52:53 PM EDT by npd233]

Originally Posted By CRNUMBER:
To get back to the toppic, we as Chicago police officers are Certified by the state of Illinois, that means we have jurisdiction in ALL parts of Illinois. Now, it is not usual to go into a town outside of Chicago but it does happen and while I wasn't there I am sure Robbins was at the very least notified at the time of execution of the warrant. If we were going into another state, I would have a big problem with that,unless it was a Hot pursuite type of thing, Chasing someone into Indianna for example and I know from experience that the chase would be called off.



Actually, you have jurisdiction in Chicago. You have authority to act as a peace officer (as opposed to as a private citizen) within the entire state, but only while on duty, and only with regard to criminal acts rising to the level of misdemeanor or above. Meaning you can't knock down someone for speeding in another city, nor can you enforce that city's local ordinances. Illinois police officers lose ALL peace officer authority when leaving this state, unless the pursued suspect is wanted for a felony, in which case the officer may pursue into a neighboring state to effect the arrest. However the suspect would have to be held in custody in the county in which he was captured and brought before a judge in that county before ANY extradition procedures would occur.

Robbins PD would not necessarily have to have been notified of CPD's warrant execution, but it would definitely have been proper protocal.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 1:00:45 AM EDT
In my town, CPD, State, County and DEA run along all day long without notifying us of any of thier operations or warrants. Things have come close to getting messy when you have plain clothes guys running around with guns out not knowing they are the Po-lice, ohhh, the stories I could tell........but won't
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 2:50:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By K9Copper:
In my town, CPD, State, County and DEA run along all day long without notifying us of any of thier operations or warrants. Things have come close to getting messy when you have plain clothes guys running around with guns out not knowing they are the Po-lice, ohhh, the stories I could tell........but won't




I mean this question in the most sincere way. Doesn't that piss you guys off when other agencies come in to your jurisdiction without letting you know? I would think it would piss me off but I don't do the job so I can't give an educated opinion.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 9:33:17 AM EDT
patriot - Have you ever considered attending your local PD or Sheriff's dept's Citizen's Police Academy if they offer one? It could provide a lot of info and insight into why and how police do what they do.
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 4:11:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By npd233:
patriot - Have you ever considered attending your local PD or Sheriff's dept's Citizen's Police Academy if they offer one? It could provide a lot of info and insight into why and how police do what they do.



We don't have a Citizen's Academy, but I have done some ride alongs. Very interesting to watch you guys in action, especially during rush hour. It's a tough job you guys have no doubt, and despite my previous comments regarding tax money, you guys and Fire guys are grossly underpaid. I know half retarded Union Electricians and Carpenters that make more than most LEO's. I think the pay scale needs to go up a bit.
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