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Posted: 12/12/2005 4:36:58 AM EDT
Link to article

Retired Chicago Police officers will be getting letters in the mail soon saying the city won't certify them to carry guns -- a move that angers the head of the local Fraternal Order of Police.

Congress passed the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act of 2004 to allow retired and off-duty officers across the country to carry concealed weapons.

But the city is worried about the liability of allowing retired cops to carry guns when they haven't gone through refresher training or undergone mental and physical fitness evaluations. The city also is concerned about the lack of a national database of retired officers authorized to carry guns.

'A responsibility,' not a luxury

Sheri Mecklenburg, general counsel to police Supt. Phil Cline, said the federal law does not define how a department should determine an officer had retired "in good standing."

"We would want some federal legislation to protect us from liability and some national database of people authorized to carry a gun," she said.

Mecklenburg said she did not know how many of the city's 9,000 retired cops have asked to be certified to carry a gun.

The letter to retired Chicago cops says "until these areas of concern are addressed by federal legislation, the Department has declined to adopt new procedures for qualifying retired officers to carry a firearm."

"They have no right to do this," responded Mark Donahue, president of the Chicago Fraternal Order of Police.

Donahue said the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act was a priority of the national FOP.

"The ability to carry a firearm, as expressed by the city, is a luxury," he said. "From the perspective of law enforcement, it is a responsibility."

The Chicago FOP's Web site said its attorneys have advised against legal action so far. Instead, the lodge is "addressing the agencies responsible for ensuring the proper enabling procedures."

Under the city's interpretation of the federal law, the city can't bar out-of-town retired officers from carrying guns if they have been certified by agencies outside Chicago.

But the city believes the federal government can't force the city to certify retired officers here if it chooses not to.


Concealed Carry for Illinois
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 6:39:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2005 6:39:21 AM EDT by WIZZO_ARAKM14]
It's just the law, what do they care?



WIZZO
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 6:47:04 AM EDT
Never thought I'd say this but.....maybe ....just maybe...we could get them to be allies for concealed carry in Illinois!!!
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 7:28:08 AM EDT
I honestly hope CCW passes in this state while Daley is still Mayor. It sure would be a slap in the face, for him.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 7:31:24 AM EDT
This is the same thing as California allowing people to smoke dope.

Staes rights, absolutely. BUT federal law trumps Chicago ordinances. Daley is a f*cking dictator. Good thing we are putting out boys lives on the line to give "freedom" to people who have no clue what that word means only so they can come home to discover that Chicago is no different than Cuba.

I can't wait until Daley is hauled off in handcuffs to the joint.

How can a city ask Police Officers to uphold the law when said city has no regard for law? Reminds me of when my Dad used to say to me "Do as I say not as I do."
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 8:09:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By patriot73:
Staes rights, absolutely.



States do not have rights. We had a war to prove this back in the 1860s. Individuals have rights. I'm not even sure where that phrase came from.....but states do not have rights.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 8:44:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tim84K10:

Originally Posted By patriot73:
Staes rights, absolutely.



States do not have rights. We had a war to prove this back in the 1860s. Individuals have rights. I'm not even sure where that phrase came from.....but states do not have rights.



The correct phrase should be "powers" rather than "rights" but the point is the same to the "state's rights" proponents who want the state government, as opposed to the federal government, to be the primary law making body governing that states' citizens.

Amendment X to the Constitution
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 8:50:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2005 8:50:48 AM EDT by Tim84K10]
Rights are reserved to the individual. Those would be "Powers prohibited by it to the states."
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 10:33:44 AM EDT
Sounds to me like some retired Chicago cops need to file a lawsuit.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 12:48:45 PM EDT
[simpsons]Ha Ha[/simpsons]
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 3:28:28 PM EDT
I'm not suprised. If the city could have current active officers not carry guns, I'm sure the powers that be, would support that too. Absolutely no one is immune from the liberal rights grabbers, and it's about time ALL of those in law enforcement realize that. This should be a wake up call for those currently employed by the department.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:08:59 PM EDT
I'm all for it.

The correct term for retired LEO is CIVILIAN.

Welcome to the mess the FOP and IACP precipitate for law abiding gunowners by opposing gun rights. Sucks to be a mere citizen, huh?

I, for one, am pretty tired of being held to a different set of laws than the police and politicians.

Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:33:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mw365:
I'm all for it.

The correct term for retired LEO is CIVILIAN.

Welcome to the mess the FOP and IACP precipitate for law abiding gunowners by opposing gun rights. Sucks to be a mere citizen, huh?

I, for one, am pretty tired of being held to a different set of laws than the police and politicians.


Actually the correct term for any LEO is civilian.

I agree 100% with this, despite the anti-gun undertones Chicago is of course spewing. I read that article today and I cheered. No special rights for anyone who thinks their elitist.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 6:04:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mw365:
I'm all for it.

The correct term for retired LEO is CIVILIAN.

Welcome to the mess the FOP and IACP precipitate for law abiding gunowners by opposing gun rights. Sucks to be a mere citizen, huh?

I, for one, am pretty tired of being held to a different set of laws than the police and politicians.




It is a misconception that cops are not civilians, even some cops think they are not civilians, however, ALL cops are cilvilians. Only military personnel are not civilians.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 7:27:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted by Sheri Mecklenburg.
"We would want some federal legislation to protect us from liability and some national database of people authorized to carry a gun," she said.



Those hemorrhoids know all about frivolous lawsuits. They certainly would not want exposure to one.

Maybe they are afraid of having to sue themselves.

JR
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 8:20:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tim84K10:
I honestly hope CCW passes in this state while Daley is still Mayor. It sure would be a slap in the face, for him.



He'd have a heart-attack about 4 seconds after the legislation passed.


I heard a rumor somewhere that "Da-mayer" carries - if so that would be pretty awesome to point out.
Also, aldermen have CC if I remember correctly.... another goood point to make.

The thing that frustrates me is hearing every few weeks / months about an "off-duty chicago cop" defending themselves with their firearm. It's great that they're able to defend themselves but there are a lot of honest people in Chicago that never get that chance.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 1:13:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By patriot73:

Originally Posted By mw365:
I'm all for it.

The correct term for retired LEO is CIVILIAN.

Welcome to the mess the FOP and IACP precipitate for law abiding gunowners by opposing gun rights. Sucks to be a mere citizen, huh?

I, for one, am pretty tired of being held to a different set of laws than the police and politicians.




It is a misconception that cops are not civilians, even some cops think they are not civilians, however, ALL cops are cilvilians. Only military personnel are not civilians.




Agreed 100%, although the dictionary agrees with them. Cops are as much of civilians as everyone else. It honestly makes me sick that anyone would think otherwise. Why we have a different set of laws for cops than everyone else, I'll never understand.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 5:20:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tim84K10:

Originally Posted By patriot73:

Originally Posted By mw365:
I'm all for it.

The correct term for retired LEO is CIVILIAN.

Welcome to the mess the FOP and IACP precipitate for law abiding gunowners by opposing gun rights. Sucks to be a mere citizen, huh?

I, for one, am pretty tired of being held to a different set of laws than the police and politicians.




It is a misconception that cops are not civilians, even some cops think they are not civilians, however, ALL cops are cilvilians. Only military personnel are not civilians.




Agreed 100%, although the dictionary agrees with them. Cops are as much of civilians as everyone else. It honestly makes me sick that anyone would think otherwise. Why we have a different set of laws for cops than everyone else, I'll never understand.



How do cops have a seperate set of laws? You should realize that you can't ask a man to be a cop and caryy a gun for years and then all of a sudden decide he is no longer qualified to do so. I support LEO's being allowed to carry anywhere in the country, it brings us one step closer to shall issue CCW in IL.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 6:35:12 AM EDT
Supporting a retired police officer's legal privilege to carry a concealed gun does not bring "ordinary citizens" any closer to shall issue carry. Quite the contrary. It merely manifests a more rigid and systemic distinction between those more privileged to carry concealed and those who are not. This is simply further achieved by placing ordinary taxpaying citizens in a different subserviant category than yet another newly chosen, legally sanctioned elitist group. In this case ex-cops.

Do not get me wrong. I know that carrying ANY weapon for personal defense is a natural God given right and such recognitions are spelled out very clearly in the 2nd Amendment of our Bill of Rights. But as long as concealed carry is a state privilege, the government should not make such categorical determinations as to who shall carry concealed based on employment history or as to whether one was a past member of a state or local law enforcement fraternity or any other such protected group. Creating class distinctions by state license is devisive, wholly unAmerican, and in this case, unconstitutional in my opinion.

This is what occurs, as a matter of course, when rights are lost and then replaced by state privileges meted out by those in power.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 9:15:16 AM EDT
Illinois gun, point taken....I didn't mean that the retired LEO's should be a class of their own...I was implying that maybe the local CPD LEO's now feel our pain....a pain bestowed upon us by their former employer none other than king dick. True, LEO or not they are still civilians....
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 10:02:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Kroagnon:

Originally Posted By mw365:
I'm all for it.

The correct term for retired LEO is CIVILIAN.

Welcome to the mess the FOP and IACP precipitate for law abiding gunowners by opposing gun rights. Sucks to be a mere citizen, huh?

I, for one, am pretty tired of being held to a different set of laws than the police and politicians.


Actually the correct term for any LEO is civilian.

I agree 100% with this, despite the anti-gun undertones Chicago is of course spewing. I read that article today and I cheered. No special rights for anyone who thinks their elitist.



I agree 100%. Maybe next time Shall Issue CCW comes up in IL, the FOP will join us on our side. Till then, F'em.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 11:05:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2005 11:08:53 AM EDT by Tim84K10]

Originally Posted By patriot73:
I support LEO's being allowed to carry anywhere in the country, it brings us one step closer to shall issue CCW in IL.



As do I, but I support that same right being extended to ALL law abiding citizens.


Originally Posted By drobs:
I agree 100%. Maybe next time Shall Issue CCW comes up in IL, the FOP will join us on our side. Till then, F'em.



Couldn't have said it better myself.

Maybe cops will "Police their own brass" regarding comments made by the head of ISP recently on the news.

F'em if they want to shit on our rights, and even do so publicly when it comes to legislation, and exercise the same right themselves.

It is really disgusting that in this country, liberty is not for everyone, but only for the select few that "insert group here" decides.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 11:31:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mack69:
Never thought I'd say this but.....maybe ....just maybe...we could get them to be allies for concealed carry in Illinois!!! hr


"They" already are. The line is with CC.

It was their white shirts that were bought off. Politicians dangled this retired carry and other bills in front of them.

All the Command Staff (Association of Chiefs of PoPo) had to do is to say; "Conceled Carry, BAD"

Then the Police would get the retired carry bill.

It worked everywhere except in Illinois where the anti-CC people already have free reign. They didn't have to promise Da Mare or Blowjobabitch nothing.

It will be privatized testing for retired carry. It will happen.

CM
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 11:39:36 AM EDT

It is really disgusting that in this country, liberty is not for everyone, but only for the select few that "insert group here" decides.


Hmmmm....seems these cicumstances have cropped up once before have they not??? Somewhere starting around 1773... due to the heavy handedness of the tryannical british crown.

I like this phrase as stated December 11th 1776 byThomas Paine, author of Common Sense, who now writes "...These are the times that try men's souls: The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of his country: but he that stands it NOW deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like Hell, is not easily conquered. Yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph."
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 8:07:20 PM EDT


Link to Article

Latest news:

At the urging of the Fraternal Order of Police, the Illinois Police Training and Standards Board voted today to begin processing the applications for Retiree Carry Concealed without the endorsement of the City of Chicago. This discussion has been in the works for about 2 weeks now and in spite of the efforts of some individuals who have gone off on their own and contacted the media and have sought other legal advice, the decision of the Training Board is the proper avenue to address the latest roadblock of the City. This is now the 3rd roadblock that has been overcome through the efforts of your F.O.P. working in conjunction with the Training Board to address all concerns. We have sought the patience of all of our members in allowing us to address their interests and we appreciate the patience most of you have shown. Working together is the way to resolve this latest issue and those that may come in the future.

The initial plan is to begin processing the applications that have been submitted after the first of the year. These applications will not need to be processed by the City and any future applications will be processed likewise. The total time element has not been outlined for the process but should not be significant. When the timeline is better identified, we will update this.


Concealed carry for Illinois
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 7:16:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2005 7:19:58 PM EDT by Tango7]

Originally Posted By Tim84K10:
Maybe cops will "Police their own brass" regarding comments made by the head of ISP recently on the news..



Once again, folks, this is the problem that people not "in the business" fail to grasp.

POLICE CHIEFS ARE NOT LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS. THEY ARE POLITICAL APPOINTEES.

This is why Cline pulls the shit that he does. He jumped on the "echo what DaMayor sez" politco bandwagon so long ago he's forgotten what it's like to be a beat cop.

The same as the "law enforcement officials" who line up to sign HCI's latest propaganda.

The same as the Chiefs who ordered the "wall of blue" behind Clinton when he signed the AWB. Not a single beat cop that was there was there without orders to "stand there, shaddup, and look good for the cameras".

Just like the IACP (International Association of Chiefs of Police) keeps parroting the Anti lines - because dems are traditionally pro .gov grants for LE and anti gun, and the Chief's echoing his bosses public opinion (mayor) serves his #1 goal - keep da butt in da chair.

The public opinion of the IACP is one of the reasons the line cops formed the LEAA. You want to talk about "us v. them" between .civ, .gov and .mil? Ask a regular street cop his real opinion of a polically motivated chief officer.

As for Kind Richie packing? Mayors, aldermen, and other City Officials are considered "conservators of the peace" under IL law - and as such, they are enabled with "police powers" (the ability to issue citations and limiteed powers of arrest for local ordinance violations); in addition, these officials may, if the ability is granted by the Authority Having Jurisdiction, carry firearms in the performance of their official duties.

Who's the AHJ in Chicago?


Hizzoner.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 7:45:40 PM EDT
I certainly hope that we can get CCW.

One of my dad's co-workers is an former LEO. My dad says he(the coworker) shot his qualifier last week and got his Retired LEO CHL.

Now, if retired LEO's can get CHL's, and Chicago aldermen, than why can't regular Joe Schmoe's like us get CHL's?
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 12:45:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tango7:

Originally Posted By Tim84K10:
Maybe cops will "Police their own brass" regarding comments made by the head of ISP recently on the news..



Once again, folks, this is the problem that people not "in the business" fail to grasp.

POLICE CHIEFS ARE NOT LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS. THEY ARE POLITICAL APPOINTEES.

This is why Cline pulls the shit that he does. He jumped on the "echo what DaMayor sez" politco bandwagon so long ago he's forgotten what it's like to be a beat cop.

The same as the "law enforcement officials" who line up to sign HCI's latest propaganda.

The same as the Chiefs who ordered the "wall of blue" behind Clinton when he signed the AWB. Not a single beat cop that was there was there without orders to "stand there, shaddup, and look good for the cameras".

Just like the IACP (International Association of Chiefs of Police) keeps parroting the Anti lines - because dems are traditionally pro .gov grants for LE and anti gun, and the Chief's echoing his bosses public opinion (mayor) serves his #1 goal - keep da butt in da chair.

The public opinion of the IACP is one of the reasons the line cops formed the LEAA. You want to talk about "us v. them" between .civ, .gov and .mil? Ask a regular street cop his real opinion of a polically motivated chief officer.

As for Kind Richie packing? Mayors, aldermen, and other City Officials are considered "conservators of the peace" under IL law - and as such, they are enabled with "police powers" (the ability to issue citations and limiteed powers of arrest for local ordinance violations); in addition, these officials may, if the ability is granted by the Authority Having Jurisdiction, carry firearms in the performance of their official duties.

Who's the AHJ in Chicago?


Hizzoner.



Read my original post. I covered politicians too.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 2:23:44 PM EDT

I recieved this from the Illinois FOP:

We are directing retirees whose agencies are not cooperating to apply to IROCC (IL Retired Officers Concealed Carry). This is offered trough the Il Law Enforcement Training and Standards Board. They can be reached at: RPOCC@sbcglobal.net or at 217-726-9537. To date some 500 + Chicago retirees have applied and their applications are going to be processed after the holidays.




Concealed Carry for Illinois
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