Posted: 10/24/2006 5:22:28 PM EDT
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I guess this one is for Jim or Joe With regard to armor piercing ammo and CCW, basically if you own it can you carry it ccw, i.e. FN 5.7 SS192 or Black Talons etc. obviously you cant buy some of this stuff anymore but if you already have it? |
Pedro, It against Federal and State law to carry or use Armor Piercing rounds in a handgun. NRS Chapter 202 That is why guys that have AR15 pistols on their CCW permits lose the option of using SS109 in those guns. On the other hand, BATFE has excluded SS109 from the list of AP rounds. BATFE Armor Piercing Ammunition To be safe, I always suggest that my students carry what the local police carry as issue ammunition in their guns i.e. Speer Gold Dot, or Federal HydraShock. Other types of ammunition such as Black Talons are considered “exotic” ammunition and could become a nightmare in both criminal and civil court. Hope this helps. Joe NRS 202.273 Unlawful manufacture or sale of certain metal-penetrating bullets: Exceptions; penalty. 1. Except as provided in subsection 2, it is unlawful to manufacture or sell any metal-penetrating bullet capable of being fired from a handgun. 2. A person may manufacture and sell metal-penetrating bullets pursuant to an agreement with a law enforcement agency for the sale of such bullets to that agency. 3. A person who violates the provisions of this section is guilty of a gross misdemeanor. 4. As used in this section, “metal-penetrating bullet” means a bullet whose core: (a) Reduces the normal expansion of the bullet upon impact; and (b) Is at least as hard as the maximum hardness attainable using solid red metal alloys, and which can be used in a handgun. The term does not include any bullet with a copper or brass jacket and a core of lead or a lead alloy, or a bullet made of lead or lead alloys. (Added to NRS by 1983, 800) BATFE Legal > Armor Piercing Ammunition Under Title 18, UNITED STATES CODE, CHAPTER 44 as amended by Public Law 103-322 The Violent Crime and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 (enacted September 13, 1994) 18 U.S.C. CHAPTER 44 § 921(a)(17)(B) the term 'armor piercing ammunition' means -- (i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or (ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile. (C) The term 'armor piercing ammunition' does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Secretary finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Secretary finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device. § 922(a) It shall be unlawful -- (7) for any person to manufacture or import armor piercing ammunition, except that this paragraph shall not apply to -- (A) the manufacture or importation of such ammunition for the use of the United States or any department or agency thereof or any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; (B) the manufacture of such ammunition for the purpose of exportation; and (C) any manufacture or importation for the purpose of testing or experimentation authorized by the Secretary; and (8) for any manufacturer or importer to sell or deliver armor piercing ammunition, except that this paragraph shall not apply to -- (A) the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of such ammunition for the use of the United States or any department or agency thereof or any State or any department agency, or political subdivision thereof; (B) the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of such ammunition for the purpose of exportation; (C) the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of such ammunition for the purposes of testing or experimenting authorized by the Secretary. (b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver-- (5) any firearm or armor-piercing ammunition to any person unless the licensee notes in his records, required to be kept pursuant to section 923 of this chapter, the name, age, and place of residence of such person if the person is an individual, or the identity and principal and local places of business of such person if the person is a corporation or other business entity. § 923 (a) No person shall engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or importing or manufacturing ammunition until he has filed an application with and received a license to do so from the Secretary... Each applicant shall pay a fee for obtaining such a license to do so from the Secretary... Each applicant shall pay a fee for obtaining such a license, a separate fee being required for each place in which the applicant is to do business, as follows: (1) If the applicant is a manufacturer- (A) of destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices or armor piercing ammunition, a fee of $1,000 per year; (2) If the applicant is an importer- (A) of destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices or armor piercing ammunition, a fee of $1,000 per year. (e) ...The Secretary may, after notice and opportunity for hearing, revoke the license of a dealer who willfully transfers armor piercing ammunition... (k) Licensed importers and licensed manufactures shall mark all armor piecing projectiles and packages containing such projectiles for distribution in the manner prescribed by the Secretary by regulation. The Secretary shall furnish information to each dealer licensed under this chapter defining which projectiles are considered armor piercing ammunition as defined by section 921(a)(17)(B). § 929(a) (1) Whoever, during and in relation to the commission of a crime of violence or drug trafficking crime (including a crime of violence or drug trafficking crime which provides for an enhanced punishment if committed by the use of a deadly or dangerous weapon or device) for which he may be prosecuted in a court of the United States, uses or carries a firearm and is in possession of armor piercing ammunition capable of being fired in that firearm, shall in addition to the punishment provided for the commission of such crime of violence or drug trafficking crime, be sentenced to a term of imprisonment for not less than five years. (b) Not withstanding any other provision of law, the court shall not suspend the sentence of any person convicted of a violation of this section, nor place the person on probation, nor shall the terms of imprisonment run concurrently with any other terms of imprisonment, including that imposed for the crime in which the armor piercing ammunition was used or possessed. No person sentenced under this section shall be eligible for parole during the term of impressment imposed herein. List of Armor Piercing Ammunition KTW AMMUNITION, all calibers. (Identified by a green coating on the projectile) ARCANE AMMUNITION, all calibers. (Identified by a pointed bronze or brass projectile) THV AMMUNITION, all calibers. (Identified by a brass or bronze projectile and having a headstamp containing the letters SFM and THV) CZECHOSLOVAKIAN manufactured 9mm Parabellum (Luger) ammunition having an iron or steel core. (Identified by a cupronickel jacket and headstamp containing a triangle, star and dates 49, 50, 51, or 52. The bullet is attracted to a magnet) GERMAN manufactured 9mm Parabellum (Luger) having an iron or steel bullet core. (Original packaging is marked Pisolenpatronen 08 m.E. May have black colored bullet. This bullet is attracted to a magnet) MSC AMMUNITION, Caliber .25. (Identified by a hollow point brass bullet. NOTE: MSC ammunition Caliber .25 identified by a hollow point copper bullet is not armor piercing) BLACK STEEL ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION, All Calibers, as produced by National Cartridge, Atlanta, Georgia. BLACK STEEL METAL PIERCING AMMUNITION, All Calibers, as produced by National Cartridge, Atlanta, Georgia. 7.62mm NATO AP (Identified by black coloring in the bullet tip. This ammunition is used by various NATO countries. The U.S. military designation is M61 AP) 7.62mm NATO SLAP (identified by projectile having a plastic sabot around a hard penetrator. The penetrator protrudes above the sabot and is similar in appearance to a Remington accelerator cartridge) PMC ULTRAMAG .38 Special caliber, constructed entirely of a brass type material, and plastic pusher disc located at the base of the projectile. NOTE: PMC ULTRAMAG 38J late production made of copper with lead alloy projectile is not armor piercing. OMNISHOCK, a .38 Special cartridge with a lead bullet containing a mild steel core with a flattened head resembling a wad cutter. (NOTE: OMNISHOCK cartridges having a bullet with an aluminum core are not armor piercing.) 7.62x39mm with steel core. (NOTE: these projectiles have a steel core. Projectiles having a lead core with steel jacket or steel case are not armor piercing) NOTE: THE FOLLOWING CARTRIDGES HAVE BEEN REMOVED FROM THE DEFINITION OF ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION: 5.56MM (.223) SS109 and M855 Ammunition, Identified by a green coating on the projectile tip. U.S. .30-06 M2 AP, Identified by a black coating on the projectile tip. |
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Thanks Joe thats the way I read it also but then I saw this B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means— (i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or (ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile. But then I thought in the case of the 5.7mm it is actually a .224 bullet therfore a .22 projectile and thus excluded as I read it, not sure if I want to put it to the test but what do you think on the interpretation |
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It against Federal and State law to carry or use Armor Piercing rounds in a handgun. NRS Chapter 202 Perhaps I missed it in the statutes quoted...........where does it mention the carry or use of AP pistol ammo? Looks to me like it only addresses the manufacture, sale by a licensed dealer, or use while commiting a criminal act. Nothing to prohibit an individual from possessing or carrying it as far as I can tell. Certainly wouldn't be my first choice for carry ammo. Is there another NRS or Federal statute you were referring to? ---AllAlphas P.S. Why does Black Talon get lumped in with this topic? Black Talons were regular old hollowpoints that were voluntarily taken off the market by Winchester............now it's just 15 year old ammo that some guys pay way too much for at gunshows. 
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Because Black Talons were EVIL!!!! Just more anti-gun BS that was lumped in with the anti-assault weapon era. Carrying armor piercing is legal......I have yet to find anything that outlaws it. The big problem came when companies were making handguns in 7.62 x 39. That ruined the steel pin cheap ammo we had going. What concerns people is the legal ramifications in a civil court because you used "more deadly" rounds. With AP ammo, it will likely be a through n through shot, unlike an evil black talon which expands very nicely! |
| Since people can't use the 5.7 mm AP rounds, what good are the rounds for the civvy market? I keep hearing the open market 5.7mm rounds are just overgrown .22 magnum rounds. Whats the deal with this? I like the Five-Seven and have considered getting one but if the civilian round is so emasculated as I'm hearing then whats the point of using this round for anything other than range time? |
Yes the gun is some what pointless with out the use of the AP rounds. The pistol is on the larger size also. But besides those flaws the gun is light wieght and has very littel recoil for quick follow up shots. Plus it has the 20rd mags that sit flush inside the grip how many other pistols can you say have that feature. The rounds do travel at a pretty high velocity wich can be good and bad. I really don't know what kind of stopping power they have and with that velocity depends on wich round you use but at that speed they could pass right threw most soft targets. Again there's the good and bad. As for the SS192 I don't think that is considered an AP round. I thought it was a hollow point. Cause I don't think it has a steel core in it. I have started to see a couple tungsten and steel core rounds out there but they are reloads so who knows how those will work. Personaly if you have the funds grab a 5.7 pistol while you can. I have been looking to get one for about 6 years now. I got my PS90 just been lagging on getting the pistol. The biggest reason to have one THERE EVIL. |
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I'd send my money on the newer Ranger Talon vice black talons ( Recomended Duty/Self-Defense Service Pistol Loads). Black Talon vs Ranger Talon? Black Talon .45 Winchester Talon Question |
The ballistic reports about the 5.7 didn't impress me or the the guys performing the test. (yes they were some of the leading Dr.s in the field) To be honest, I wouldn't feel out gunned if I had my G17 and had to go against someone who had a 5.7 pistol. A difference of 3 rounds and a lot more money for ammo. Just my.02 |
Never Officially But That Doesn't Mean You Can't Buy It Perfectly Legally But who would pay $400 a box? |
As Pedro sed it can be found and had. I have passed it up a few times. The cost was just WAY to much. |
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Armor Piercing Ammunition, atf.gov Best M14 regular and armor piercing ammo?, good m14firinglingforum discussion |