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Posted: 1/30/2006 9:00:40 AM EDT
Guys,
I need some help here if you don't mind. I've managed to get some range time set up for an exhibitor at SHOT, but I need to scrounge up some rifle rated plates for targets. Calibers are 5.56mm, 6.8mm and 7.62mm. No AP, though the 5.56mm may be M855 steel core. FYI, it doesn't penetrate as well as M193 at the closer distances. We'd only be borrowing them for a day or so, probably Friday 2/10/06.

Thanks!
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 10:55:14 AM EDT
Go to P&S Metal, and have them burn what you want out of AR400 plate. .375 thick will do fine - even at point blank ranges.

Not trying to offend, but if this is an exhibitor @ SHOT, then they are business, and can pay for what they need. AR400 plate is not expensive, and they should give you the damn targets when they are done - after all you already set up range time for them.


P & S Metals & Supply Corp
(702) 367-1701
(800) 456-0530
5160 Rogers St
Las Vegas, NV 89118


Lem
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 6:26:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2006 6:32:36 PM EDT by BroncoGlenn]

Originally Posted By Dorsai:
No AP, though the 5.56mm may be M855 steel core. FYI, it doesn't penetrate as well as M193 at the closer distances. We'd only be borrowing them for a day or so,



M855 will penetrate 1/4" Hardox 450 out to 150 meters. Beyond that it pretty much craters the surface of the steel pretty bad.

M193 will not pentrate as well as the M855. I don't know who told you that the M855 doesn't penetrate as well as the M193, but they are seriously mistaken. Simple physics come into play: The M193 is a lighter bullet carrying less energy and lacks the steel cone in the nose.

So if you borrow somebody's steel and decide to shoot M855 at it, you should plan on just paying for the steel.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 7:25:58 PM EDT
Bronco,
Sorry to disagree with you, but the higher initial velocity of M193 makes it a better penetrator. As the velocity drops, the greater momentum and the penetrator of the M855 makes it superior at longer ranges. In this case however, its an argument that doesn't matter. If the steel is good for 7.62mm ball, we don't have to worry about 5.56mm and 6.8mm.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 8:56:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2006 8:59:27 PM EDT by BroncoGlenn]

Originally Posted By Dorsai:
Bronco,
Sorry to disagree with you, but the higher initial velocity of M193 makes it a better penetrator.



Wrong again. Based on Aberdeen Proving Ground data the M193 has a typical muzzle velocity 3200 fps and M855 runs at 3100. This gives the M193 1250 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle and 914 at 100 yards. The M855 1323 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle and 964 at 100 yards.

If you were to push the M193 to 3292 fps while keeping the M855 at 3100 fps, then the energy values at the muzzle are equal. However, because of the construction of the M855, it offers far superior terminal penetration than the M193 can, even at similar energy values.

But, you could continue to chant your existing mantra if you feel the desire. However, even fiction recited ten thousand times remains fiction.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 9:51:20 PM EDT
I mean no disrespect to the powers that be, but doesn't the M193 have greater penetration capability under 100 meters than the M855/SS109?

Just wonderin'.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 4:27:42 AM EDT
Sigh. From the Ammo-Oracle:


Q. But doesn't M855 penetrate hard objects better than M193?

It depends. At close ranges (up to 40-50 yards), M193 will penetrate thicker steel than M855, due to its increased velocity. Beyond 100 yards, M855's bullet construction starts paying off and it will penetrate better than M193. M855 also loses velocity more slowly than M193, with a cross-over point between 200 and 300 yards, beyond which M855 will have more velocity than M193.




Q. What sort of velocity and ballistics should I expect from military ammo?

M193 should give you around 3200-3250 fps from the muzzle of a 20" weapon and around 3150 from a 16" weapon.

M855 should give you around 3050-3100 from a 20" weapon and around 2950-3000 from a 16" weapon.



You are perfectly free to have another opinion. Even better, if you have test documentation that shows the oracle to be in error, do us all a favor and provide it. I'm happy to learn something new and I have no emotional investment in proclaiming the oracle to be all-knowing and all-wise. But I do require some evidence that it is wrong.

This has been fun, but back to the point. If the plate is good for 7.62, I'm really not going to worry about whether its being hammered by M193 or M855.

Thanks again for your help.
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