Posted: 3/25/2013 11:53:26 AM EDT
| Can anyone recommend someone for preparing an NFA Trust? |
I hear that Tom Grieve guy over at www.wifirearmlawyer.com is pretty good
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This is who I just used, seemed to know his stuff and definitely an interesting guy. |
| I'm a lawyer and do Gun Trusts. PM me if you want details. I would also suggest to everyone here that with the potential for universal background checks in the future, gun trusts are not just for NFA guns anymore. I recommend having ALL of your guns and mags in a multi-generational gun trust. Good, professionally drafted gun trusts are very inexpensive but I strongly recommend talking to a lawyer that does them. The Quicken-type trusts are not designed for gun ownership and they are an executive order away from failure. |
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Willmaker no longer has trusts included. Legalzoom has bought their publishing rights if that sounds correct...??
Legalzoom has a chat/email assist to help you. No offense to Dmac, but legal papers are legal papers. It all comes down to how they are interpreted in the legal action that unfolds by whoever is involved. I had correct legal paperwork that cost big $ from a reputable lawyer that were ignored during probate. Too long of a story, but true all the same. Funny how when the paperwork finally came into call, it was too late and the other family members raped the estate. Find out which is best/cheaper/etc and use it. Don't let anyone scare you off from your decision. The elephant in the room is the NFA process. Pull the trigger and commit. I know, punny. V OUT |
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No offense taken but I whole heatedly disagree with the statement "but legal papers are legal papers" The papers have to be correct and I would tell you in no uncertain terms that if the papers were "correct" then with the legal papers from a reputable lawyer, you would never have been in the probate system in the first place. Probate is nothing more than a money making system for lawyers...don't let that happen. It's very easy to avoid. That's the problem with this type of law; you don't know if the paperwork is screwed up until it's too late.
A trust drafted specifically for NFA purposes will ALWAYS be better than a general trust drafted on legal zoom and, in most case, WILL COST LESS. At least that's how I do it.. |
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Can you speak to the difference between a "regular" NFA/gun trust via lawyer and a more extensive "multi-generational" trust -- I guess even beyond that. I've read that there is an even better way to do this but costs more that makes it pretty watertight -- even protects from a future judgment or creditors, bankruptcy, etc. If one was going through all the work and planning for future generations, especially with high $$$ NFA stuff or even non-NFA (and the changing political climate) -- is there a best way to do this? The extreme end of the spectrum? I think the key phrase in what I read was a multi-generational insulating asset protection trust that could truly protect from likely legislative changes. The down side was this costs much more to setup? |
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The Quicken-type trusts are not designed for gun ownership and they are an executive order away from failure. Anything is one executive order away from failure Big+1 to Garage. I agree, POTUS can/does whatever and we pay. I remember being in Vegas and having WW2 vets pass and their spouses bringing in Schmeissers and such for destruction. These old timers just hid them away...sad. DMac, we'll agree to disagree. I think the root answer is to have representation more than the paper it is written on. V OUT |
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I agree. Representation is key and having someone you can call on the phone or look eye to eye will always trump do-it-yourself, online stuff and if the eye to eye representation costs less than the ill fitting internet stuff, it's kind of a no brainer.
Yes, POTUS can try anything via EO but.it doesn't mean it would work. But a simple directive to the ATF to be more aggressive in the review of NFA trust transactions for legal sufficiency would result in a lot trust being dismantled. It's the same thing they do periodically with the IRS and the audit policy. Regarding the multi generational trusts, yes they can be made creditor proof for successive generations and no they're not that much more complicated than a simple NFA trust. All of my guns are in such a trust. |
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Quoted:
I agree. Representation is key and having someone you can call on the phone or look eye to eye will always trump do-it-yourself, online stuff and if the eye to eye representation costs less than the ill fitting internet stuff, it's kind of a no brainer. Yes, POTUS can try anything via EO but.it doesn't mean it would work. But a simple directive to the ATF to be more aggressive in the review of NFA trust transactions for legal sufficiency would result in a lot trust being dismantled. It's the same thing they do periodically with the IRS and the audit policy. Regarding the multi generational trusts, yes they can be made creditor proof for successive generations and no they're not that much more complicated than a simple NFA trust. All of my guns are in such a trust. Quoted:
I'm an attorney, quicken will work just fine if your sole purpose is avoid a CLEO signature. Lawyer fight!!!! 
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Quoted: Quoted: I agree. Representation is key and having someone you can call on the phone or look eye to eye will always trump do-it-yourself, online stuff and if the eye to eye representation costs less than the ill fitting internet stuff, it's kind of a no brainer. Yes, POTUS can try anything via EO but.it doesn't mean it would work. But a simple directive to the ATF to be more aggressive in the review of NFA trust transactions for legal sufficiency would result in a lot trust being dismantled. It's the same thing they do periodically with the IRS and the audit policy. Regarding the multi generational trusts, yes they can be made creditor proof for successive generations and no they're not that much more complicated than a simple NFA trust. All of my guns are in such a trust. Quoted: I'm an attorney, quicken will work just fine if your sole purpose is avoid a CLEO signature. Lawyer fight!!!! It's a fight, it's a fight, it's a lawyer ... and a lawyer!  |
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Most attorney's that advertise NFA trusts drum up business by suggesting crazy hypotheticals to scare folks.
If you want to do estate planning you should spend the cash and do it correctly. If you are buying a chepo 22 can and don't want to get a signature, quicken will do the trick. |
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No fight; just a drastic difference of opinion. I would venture a guess that any lawyer that endorses quicken, or legal zoom, does not do trusts as part of his/her practice. That's ok, I don't do divorces or litigation or bankruptcy..
The bottom line is that gun trusts are very simple legal documents but they must have specific language regarding trustee power and beneficiary definitions/restrictions. A legal zoom trust that is not designed for NFA purposes will cost about $250 which is about what a specifically designed gun trust would cost you. If you are not a welder but you decide that you can build your own gun safe. Say the needed materials and equipment will cost $500. You may end up with something that looks like a gun safe but you will never know for sure if your welds are sound. In the meantime, you could have bought a quality gun safe from a reputable manufacturer for the same $500, did you really make a wise choice going the DIY route? It puzzles me that a person would invest thousands of dollars in guns and accessories but will take risky shortcuts to save a couple hundred bucks on a tool designed to be the actual owner of the guns. I will make an offer here to anyone following this thread that has a Quicken, Legal Zoom, or similar trust. I will review it for free and will give you an honest opinion on whether it is suitable and what changes you might want to make. No charge whatsoever. Like I said before, a faulty trust may not cause problems for years but when problems do arise it will likely be too late to fix them. Do it right; do it once. I guarantee you after the first time some crackpot employs a suppressor or MG in a public shooting, this current administration will use the ATF to go after the low hanging fruit, and that is the quicken-style NFA trust.. |
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To whomever,
I read something on The Oracle of All Knowledge, a.k.a. the internet. I'd like to get your thoughts on it. Text as follows: There are significant advantages of using an Assignment sheet over a schedule of assets or as some trusts refer to it "a Schedule A". While most believe that the registration of firearms has been shown to be one of the first steps in the confiscation of firearms by the government, there are many individuals who unknowingly and freely give the ATF a complete list of their firearms by using a Schedule A. An assignment sheet can still transfer assets into a trust, but not create a full list of the assets and become part of the trust document. |
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Here was my problem using a lawyer to draft a NFA trust. I used a person recommended by people on here. Of course I had to pay up front. Took a long time and had a hard time getting a hold of the guy (of course he was quick before I paid him!). Finally got the trust, and the only thing different from a quicken trust was a small paragraph about being able to use the trust items (because normally items in a trust should stay in the same condition, and by using it, you "devalue" it). There was no wording about who could or couldn't get things etc. So I basically wasted $250 over just doing the quicken route or using one of the ones people have posted online. Does it work? Absolutely. I just expected more since he said he did NFA trusts all the time. I really wish someone could send me a copy of their NFA trust that has good wording so I can change mine. I really dont want to pay any more money, thats for sure.
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Quoted:
Here was my problem using a lawyer to draft a NFA trust. I used a person recommended by people on here. Of course I had to pay up front. Took a long time and had a hard time getting a hold of the guy (of course he was quick before I paid him!). Finally got the trust, and the only thing different from a quicken trust was a small paragraph about being able to use the trust items (because normally items in a trust should stay in the same condition, and by using it, you "devalue" it). There was no wording about who could or couldn't get things etc. So I basically wasted $250 over just doing the quicken route or using one of the ones people have posted online. Does it work? Absolutely. I just expected more since he said he did NFA trusts all the time. I really wish someone could send me a copy of their NFA trust that has good wording so I can change mine. I really dont want to pay any more money, thats for sure. I bet I know who you used. I think I used the same one and was not impressed. Same complaints as you.
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No fight; just a drastic difference of opinion. I would venture a guess that any lawyer that endorses quicken, or legal zoom, does not do trusts as part of his/her practice. That's ok, I don't do divorces or litigation or bankruptcy.. The bottom line is that gun trusts are very simple legal documents but they must have specific language regarding trustee power and beneficiary definitions/restrictions. A legal zoom trust that is not designed for NFA purposes will cost about $250 which is about what a specifically designed gun trust would cost you. If you are not a welder but you decide that you can build your own gun safe. Say the needed materials and equipment will cost $500. You may end up with something that looks like a gun safe but you will never know for sure if your welds are sound. In the meantime, you could have bought a quality gun safe from a reputable manufacturer for the same $500, did you really make a wise choice going the DIY route? It puzzles me that a person would invest thousands of dollars in guns and accessories but will take risky shortcuts to save a couple hundred bucks on a tool designed to be the actual owner of the guns. I will make an offer here to anyone following this thread that has a Quicken, Legal Zoom, or similar trust. I will review it for free and will give you an honest opinion on whether it is suitable and what changes you might want to make. No charge whatsoever. Like I said before, a faulty trust may not cause problems for years but when problems do arise it will likely be too late to fix them. Do it right; do it once. I guarantee you after the first time some crackpot employs a suppressor or MG in a public shooting, this current administration will use the ATF to go after the low hanging fruit, and that is the quicken-style NFA trust.. Dorner, the ex cop in the LA shooting, used NFA items he acquired through a trust in his rampage. That's nice gesture to review people's trusts for them. Hopefully some folks take you up on that. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Mudguts, I do see the risk in listing trust-owned on the the trust document itself (schedule A) so the transfer documentation separate from the trust is a viable option as long as the transfer documentation is legally sufficient to indicate ownership change. I think this is especially true with the movement to employ the all gun trusts to mitigate the effects universal background check legislation.
Lichter, I was not aware of the weapons that Dorner used in his rampage. It is interesting that they were NFA. I would imagine that if he wasn't a "former cop/marine," the NFA aspect of the story would have received much more attention in the press. |
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I'm a lawyer and do Gun Trusts. PM me if you want details. I would also suggest to everyone here that with the potential for universal background checks in the future, gun trusts are not just for NFA guns anymore. I recommend having ALL of your guns and mags in a multi-generational gun trust. Good, professionally drafted gun trusts are very inexpensive but I strongly recommend talking to a lawyer that does them. The Quicken-type trusts are not designed for gun ownership and they are an executive order away from failure. Oh cool, we don't need industry accounts to advertise anymore. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm a lawyer and do Gun Trusts. PM me if you want details. I would also suggest to everyone here that with the potential for universal background checks in the future, gun trusts are not just for NFA guns anymore. I recommend having ALL of your guns and mags in a multi-generational gun trust. Good, professionally drafted gun trusts are very inexpensive but I strongly recommend talking to a lawyer that does them. The Quicken-type trusts are not designed for gun ownership and they are an executive order away from failure. Oh cool, we don't need industry accounts to advertise anymore. I prefer to use my buddy Tom G. His services are not expensive, and he is good for advice when needed. It helps if you send a client or two his way. And to think... I used to hate lawyers.
I wonder when they'll let him back on again???? |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm a lawyer and do Gun Trusts. PM me if you want details. I would also suggest to everyone here that with the potential for universal background checks in the future, gun trusts are not just for NFA guns anymore. I recommend having ALL of your guns and mags in a multi-generational gun trust. Good, professionally drafted gun trusts are very inexpensive but I strongly recommend talking to a lawyer that does them. The Quicken-type trusts are not designed for gun ownership and they are an executive order away from failure. Oh cool, we don't need industry accounts to advertise anymore. Not advertising, just providing background so people can gauge the quality of the information based on its source. I would place my interest in this area (gun trusts) in the political involvement category rather than the business category. Gun trusts are just not lucrative enough of a practice area to spend a lot of time and money advertising or promoting.. I just happen to be a fellow gun enthusiast that has a law license. And for the record, I hate lawyers too 
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm a lawyer and do Gun Trusts. PM me if you want details. I would also suggest to everyone here that with the potential for universal background checks in the future, gun trusts are not just for NFA guns anymore. I recommend having ALL of your guns and mags in a multi-generational gun trust. Good, professionally drafted gun trusts are very inexpensive but I strongly recommend talking to a lawyer that does them. The Quicken-type trusts are not designed for gun ownership and they are an executive order away from failure. Oh cool, we don't need industry accounts to advertise anymore. I, for one, consider D-Mac's posts to be more in the form of "professional advice" than advertising. Just as others have answered questions pertaining to their line of expertise (profession). I've given advice on locks and safes to more than one member here, not for advertising purposes nor to make money, but because I'm a professional locksmith (27 years worth) and I know "how" or "what" because I do it everyday, and they don't or they wouldn't be asking. |