Posted: 7/8/2011 10:19:33 AM EDT
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Along with researching a carry piece ive been looking into non-lethal items.Something that I could deploy with one hand so my other hand can be ready to draw.I don't want to be in a situation where the threat doesn't at that moment call for lethal force but which does call for an assertive response.I would not draw to bluff or intimidate.I'm from L.A.,I can tell you that not only does it not work but you've blown your wad so to speak.All eyes are on you and youv'e already shown a reluctance to drop the hammer.I'm a big guy with training in Muay Thai,Bjj,boxing and judo but if i'm carrying the last thing I want to do is go hands on.I feel the knife falls in with the gun as far as level of response.I was thinking a dedicated strobe flashlight would be ideal.Non-lethal,disconcerting,would allow me open up or close distance and I want to carry a flashlight anyway.Sucks in the day though.The other things i'm looking at are ASP batons and of course chemical sprays.However,I don't want to need a duty belt.Any of you guys want to weigh in on opinions,other options,real life or training experiences,etc.I suppose I would be less apprehensive of going hands on if I had some training in weapons retention or if there was a good iwb holster with retention.But alas,I still have yet to scrape together the funds for a good defensive pistol course. |
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I would go with the OC spray. The strobe flashlights will only buy you a second at best, and as you state, is completely worthless in the day, and likely to be of diminished utility in the urban settings where you're most likely to need your CCW, because they're full of streetlights, car headlights etc. Plus, depending on the light, it may take more than one manipulation to access the strobe function, and conversely, it could go into strobe mode exactly when you DON'T want it too. The OC, if used in a stream fashion has range and stand-off distance that the ASP baton does not.
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| Many people swear by Fox brand OC, but I do like the original Kimber pepper-blaster for a nice discreet clip-on option. The "safety" is a bit flimsy (broke on mine, so I threw tape over the finger hole, which I can easily push through with my finger) but otherwise a good size and all. |
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Where does pepper spray lie legally? Say you have to deploy it but charges are pressed and you get the judge on a bad day.Since the basis of my using it would be that I myself did not believe a more aggressive response was appropriate I can imagine that a the circumstance would be murkier for a judge/jury.Are we talking comparable to punching someone in the face or a step up? |
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Quoted:
ippon seionage to armbar ftw I prefer feign Uchimata to sumi-gaeshi, into a badass head-butt or pummeling of the face and chest with my fists. While I do really like ippon seio-nage, I find myself better with marote seio-nage due to the fact that I gnerally fight with my offhand as my strong hand (I'm a righty but fight lefty). JUDO FTW! |
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Once the CCW law goes into effect and you have your permit, a Taser. Until then Fox 5.3 OC spray. Don't use OC/CS combinations, they aren't legal. In the LE world OC is justifiable for use under "Active resistance or the threat thereof" Fox 5.3 is not legal in WI for us peons. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Once the CCW law goes into effect and you have your permit, a Taser. Until then Fox 5.3 OC spray. Don't use OC/CS combinations, they aren't legal. In the LE world OC is justifiable for use under "Active resistance or the threat thereof" Fox 5.3 is not legal in WI for us peons. Why not? |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Once the CCW law goes into effect and you have your permit, a Taser. Until then Fox 5.3 OC spray. Don't use OC/CS combinations, they aren't legal. In the LE world OC is justifiable for use under "Active resistance or the threat thereof" Fox 5.3 is not legal in WI for us peons. Why not? WI only allows 10% OC, and no more than 2oz and no dye for the general public. Most of Fox Labs products fail on one or more of the above criteria. Although, since you didn't know this, I doubt most LEO's who might respond to a citizen who OC's someone to prevent assault or some other kind of crime would bother to check either. If it's a legit defensive spraying, even if a cop did know the spray has some illegal attribute, like dye, was bigger than 2oz or more than 10%OC, I'd imagine they're likely to ignore it. Probably more an issue if the perpetrator hires an ambulance chaser to go after you, or if the legality of the spraying was hazy, and having a dissaproved spray might be just enough to tip things against you. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Once the CCW law goes into effect and you have your permit, a Taser. Until then Fox 5.3 OC spray. Don't use OC/CS combinations, they aren't legal. In the LE world OC is justifiable for use under "Active resistance or the threat thereof" Fox 5.3 is not legal in WI for us peons. Why not? WI only allows 10% OC, and no more than 2oz and no dye. Most of Fox Labs products fail on one or more criteria. http://foxlabs.com/pepperspray.shtml I see plenty of things that have no dye, and are 2oz and under. Their products are 2% OC per the top of the page. I don't see anything in the statute that says you can't have dye either. (a) Subsections (1) to (3) do not apply to any device or container that contains a combination of oleoresin of capsicum and inert ingredients but does not contain any other gas or substance that will cause bodily discomfort. |
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I don't see anything in the statute that says you can't have dye either. (a) Subsections (1) to (3) do not apply to any device or container that contains a combination of oleoresin of capsicum and inert ingredients but does not contain any other gas or substance that will cause bodily discomfort. 941.26 - ANNOT. Cross-reference: See also ch. Jus 14, Wis. adm. code. http://legis.wisconsin.gov/rsb/code/jus/jus014.pdf I think the general ruling is that UV dye is not an "inert ingredient" and may add to discomfort. Every other place I've looked says no UV dye.I have yet to see UV dyed OC for sale in Wisconsin. I though all 5.3 came with UV dye by default... 
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Quoted: Quoted: I don't see anything in the statute that says you can't have dye either. (a) Subsections (1) to (3) do not apply to any device or container that contains a combination of oleoresin of capsicum and inert ingredients but does not contain any other gas or substance that will cause bodily discomfort. 941.26 - ANNOT. Cross-reference: See also ch. Jus 14, Wis. adm. code. http://legis.wisconsin.gov/rsb/code/jus/jus014.pdf I think the general ruling is that UV dye is not an "inert ingredient" and may add to discomfort. Every other place I've looked says no UV dye.I have yet to see UV dyed OC for sale in Wisconsin. I though all 5.3 came with UV dye by default... http://i53.tinypic.com/20qjat5.jpg How the fuck can UV dye add to discomfort.  (Not arguing with you, just commenting) |
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How the fuck can UV dye add to discomfort.
(Not arguing with you, just commenting) Well..don't think that i'm agreeing with that ruling, because I'm not. But I'm sure it would not feel good in your eyes...not that you'd notice over the extreme burning of the OC. 
I would like to see all forms of OC legal, along with CS. Why the ban on "camouflaged" containers, or smaller containers, or larger, or a little CS mixed in? It makes no logical sense. I can understand that the backpack crowd control units could be misused, but still...nothing that 20 smaller canisters can't do. 
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How the fuck can UV dye add to discomfort.
(Not arguing with you, just commenting) Well, if you single out the perp cause they have a long lasting dye sprayed on them, it inflicts all kinds of mental trauma on them, esp. among their peers. Can't be hurting the mental well being of the criminal element, can we? |
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Step 1: Drive to MN, IA, IL, MI, or IN for some reason (vacation, work, whatever).
Step 2: Buy FoxLabs pepper spray. Step 3: ????? Step 4: Profit Protect yourself. I'd rather have Fox 5 point whatever over the Tazer. I firmly believe that the Tazer is a GREAT tool within the LE force continuum, but for a non-cop, without a partner backing him up with an instrument of DF in hand; you're better off with the pepper spray. The dye ruling is stupid, FTR, but AFAIK, it's why FoxLabs doesn't sell the stuff here. |
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Quoted: I'd rather have Fox 5 point whatever over the Tazer. I firmly believe that the Tazer is a GREAT tool within the LE force continuum, but for a non-cop, without a partner backing him up with an instrument of DF in hand; you're better off with the pepper spray. I don't necessarily agree with you, but I can see your point. The OC gets all over everything, and everyone...including the person using it (normally). Plus someone can fight through OC, especially if under the influence of drugs. |
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I'd rather have Fox 5 point whatever over the Tazer. I firmly believe that the Tazer is a GREAT tool within the LE force continuum, but for a non-cop, without a partner backing him up with an instrument of DF in hand; you're better off with the pepper spray. I don't necessarily agree with you, but I can see your point. The OC gets all over everything, and everyone...including the person using it (normally). Plus someone can fight through OC, especially if under the influence of drugs. I'd rather carry OC too. Taser is only good versus one subject, only lasts a short time, with instant recovery after the current shuts off. And if you miss or get a bad probe contact, you don't have anything. OC can be used against multiple adveraries, and even if they want to fight through it, their vision will be impaired for some time. |
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Quoted: I'd rather carry OC too. Taser is only good versus one subject, only lasts a short time, with instant recovery after the current shuts off. And if you miss or get a bad probe contact, you don't have anything. OC can be used against multiple adveraries, and even if they want to fight through it, their vision will be impaired for some time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0PWcjDpTvE  |
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Quoted: Quoted: I'd rather carry OC too. Taser is only good versus one subject, only lasts a short time, with instant recovery after the current shuts off. And if you miss or get a bad probe contact, you don't have anything. OC can be used against multiple adveraries, and even if they want to fight through it, their vision will be impaired for some time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0PWcjDpTvE Only $1600. I'll take two! |
| So... I guess the question for the LEO's on the board is...would UV dye really get one in trouble? It seems no one wants to sell it in wisconsin, but I cannot find any clear cut decision stating that it is illegal. Would it be wise to avoid UV dyed OC, that otherwise meets legal restrictions? Or would you think dye is safe? (non-legally binding personal opinion, naturally) |
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Quoted: So... I guess the question for the LEO's on the board is...would UV dye really get one in trouble? It seems no one wants to sell it in wisconsin, but I cannot find any clear cut decision stating that it is illegal. Would it be wise to avoid UV dyed OC, that otherwise meets legal restrictions? Or would you think dye is safe? (non-legally binding personal opinion, naturally) I wouldn't think twice about it, and IF I think you got rolled up for it I would be SHOCKED if a DA prosecuted that...barring there being some major extenuating circumstances. I.E. you were involved in other crimes etc...and then you're going to have bigger problems anyhow. Personally, I don't see UV Dye as being an ingredient that would cause someone more pain anyhow. But, as always IANAL and this is not legal advice blah blah blah. |
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Well, OK. But as long as you're going to conceal that cereal box, let's go all the way. http://youtu.be/-9AN7N4S3tI
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So... I guess the question for the LEO's on the board is...would UV dye really get one in trouble? It seems no one wants to sell it in wisconsin, but I cannot find any clear cut decision stating that it is illegal. Would it be wise to avoid UV dyed OC, that otherwise meets legal restrictions? Or would you think dye is safe? (non-legally binding personal opinion, naturally) I used to believe the UV dye was prohibited, but after some checking I couldn't find anything to back that up. Now I believe it's because Fox's packaging doesn't comply with the requirements of WI Admin Code, so it's illegal to sell...although I don't believe it would be illegal to possess. But I haven't done a lot of recent research in this area, so don't take that as gospel. |
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Quoted: Well, OK. But as long as you're going to conceal that cereal box, let's go all the way. http://youtu.be/-9AN7N4S3tI Hell yes. Some of those in a Serbu Super shorty. |
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They haven't even come close to how far they could take that concept. The taser slugs could be configured with a little extra circuitry to detect if the perp starts moving again after the initial stunning. Little voice chip that says "Don't move until instructed to do so by a qualified law enforcement officer or you will be shocked again." You'd probably need a bi-lingual version, just in case... "Don' el movimiento de t hasta que sea dado instrucciones de hacer tan por un agente de la autoridad o usted calificado será dado una sacudida eléctrica otra vez." Then it beeps a warning if the target gets too close to the movement threshold, or tries to remove the probes. GPS version for riots. If you're advancing, you're shocked. If you're retreating it stays off, and then disables permanently if you leave the preconfigured riot zone. Real good for crowd dispersion. |
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Quoted: Well, since this isn't Bladerunner, I'll just stick by my recommendation of OC as an LTL option.  If it was Blade Runner, it would sound like gibberish. That gibberish the Taser Slug spoke was city speak, gutter talk. A mishmash of Japanese, Spanish, German, what have you. I didn't really need a translator, I knew the lingo, every good cop did.
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Quoted: They haven't even come close to how far they could take that concept. The taser slugs could be configured with a little extra circuitry to detect if the perp starts moving again after the initial stunning. Little voice chip that says "Don't move until instructed to do so by a qualified law enforcement officer or you will be shocked again." You'd probably need a bi-lingual version, just in case... "Don' el movimiento de t hasta que sea dado instrucciones de hacer tan por un agente de la autoridad o usted calificado será dado una sacudida eléctrica otra vez." Then it beeps a warning if the target gets too close to the movement threshold, or tries to remove the probes. GPS version for riots. If you're advancing, you're shocked. If you're retreating it stays off, and then disables permanently if you leave the preconfigured riot zone. Real good for crowd dispersion. Um, tri-lingual, though I refuse to acknowledge the third should be recognized as a "language"... Thoughts come to mind but I'm not going to go there.  |
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This link seems to be focused on what can be sold in WI. It never says you can't have it, own it or have bigger sizes in WI. It just can't be sold in a form other than what is described. I have very few under 2ozs, that is key chain stuff. I think all of them have a combo of OC, CS and UV dyes and there is no mention about CS at all in the link. None were purchased in WI, they came with me. Is there additional info on carrying and/or owning mace in WI? |
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This link seems to be focused on what can be sold in WI. It never says you can't have it, own it or have bigger sizes in WI. It just can't be sold in a form other than what is described. I have very few under 2ozs, that is key chain stuff. I think all of them have a combo of OC, CS and UV dyes and there is no mention about CS at all in the link. None were purchased in WI, they came with me. Is there additional info on carrying and/or owning mace in WI? CS is definitly a no-no. |
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Quoted: This link seems to be focused on what can be sold in WI. It never says you can't have it, own it or have bigger sizes in WI. It just can't be sold in a form other than what is described. I have very few under 2ozs, that is key chain stuff. I think all of them have a combo of OC, CS and UV dyes and there is no mention about CS at all in the link. None were purchased in WI, they came with me. Is there additional info on carrying and/or owning mace in WI? 941.26(4)(a) (a) Subsections (1) to (3) do not apply to any device or container that contains a combination of oleoresin of capsicum and inert ingredients but does not contain any other gas or substance that will cause bodily discomfort. Never been CS'd, but I'm pretty sure that will cause bodily discomfort. |
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For the record, considering that over 80% of organic chemicals are UV active, I think a compelling case can be made that any dye is indeed an "inert" ingredient for the purpose of non-LE self-defense. I'd be surprised if OC sprays are NOT UV absorbent even absent special "dyes" that are probably just meant to absorb at a specific wavelength that cops tend to check for things like...
...BLOOD AND SEMEN! I bet that last part got people's attention! |
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This link seems to be focused on what can be sold in WI. It never says you can't have it, own it or have bigger sizes in WI. It just can't be sold in a form other than what is described. I have very few under 2ozs, that is key chain stuff. I think all of them have a combo of OC, CS and UV dyes and there is no mention about CS at all in the link. None were purchased in WI, they came with me. Is there additional info on carrying and/or owning mace in WI? 941.26(4)(a) (a) Subsections (1) to (3) do not apply to any device or container that contains a combination of oleoresin of capsicum and inert ingredients but does not contain any other gas or substance that will cause bodily discomfort. Never been CS'd, but I'm pretty sure that will cause bodily discomfort. Thanks guys. I had to read that more than once then I went and looked up 941.20 and had to read it some more. Chapter 941 Sadly, yes it works really well. My 78 year old Mom kicked some ass with it a few years ago. Didn't even need to pull her .38 AND that is kind of the point with all of this stuff. On a positive note at least when my Mom comes to visit, soon she will likely be able to carry her .38 when she does. Just leave the mace at home.
It just hit me, disguised means mace containers that look like ink pens are no-no's too. No comment. |
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It just hit me, disguised means mace containers that look like ink pens are no-no's too. No comment. And that is the nature of my question. It seems the admin code deals with sales, but does it regulate posession? Clearly, an OC pen does not violate 941.26, but it does not comply with the admin code. |
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It just hit me, disguised means mace containers that look like ink pens are no-no's too. No comment. And that is the nature of my question. It seems the admin code deals with sales, but does it regulate posession? Clearly, an OC pen does not violate 941.26, but it does not comply with the admin code. Quoted:
any unofficial comments on the "not legal for sale, but legal for posession" argument? I tihnk I found the answer to my own question: http://datcp.wi.gov/uploads/Consumer/pdf/PepperSpray157.pdf "OC and pepper spray products sold in Wisconsin must comply with rules established by the Wisconsin Department of Justice. Although the rules control sellers and not users, it may be wise for Wisconsin consumers to purchase OC products in Wisconsin. Products sold in other states may be mixed with other tear gas substances. It would be illegal to possess these products in Wisconsin." |