Posted: 7/6/2011 2:47:37 PM EDT
| Schock of Shocks I called Senator Wanggaard's office and the Senator answered the phone. The castle doctrine bill has gone through 2 committees and will be on the senate floor right away this fall. It will have "Stand your Ground" language in it. This will be either from amendments or a substitution bill. I mentioned the mob attacks in Milwaukee over the weekend and he said they were talking about that today and what needed to be added to cover that type of attack. He also mentioned something about a straw purchase language in the bill. He said having stronger state straw purchase language will make it easier for local gov. to prosecute this crime. |
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If the Amish who want the firearms are legally able to own them I do not see the big deal about it. Why are they above the law? In some instances, yes they are above the law. They don't pay Social Security. They aren't required to sign up for the draft. It is against their religious beliefs. The Amish are the least of our worries. Now, if it were some burqua'd woman that was denied a firearm purchase because she could not get a photo id, as it would be against their beliefs, there would be an outcry of epic proportions. But since it's the Amish... we just tell them to pound sand? |
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I use to be with you but so many of them follow the letter of their "law" only. They asked my dad to find a way to fill tractor tires so they are solid because they can't use air filled tires. They have cell phones and gas generators but can't have wired phones. Etc.
I agree there are bigger fish to fry but I would be glad if they had to find a legal way to purchase firearms. |
LOL... Took me an actual post or three to realize you meant the ACTUAL Amish.  For a minute I thought this was the General Discussion use of the term "Amish". I'm really glad to hear there's "stand your ground" verbiage for public spaces as well. I assume there's civil immunity included as well?
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I honestly could care less about the Amish, they keep to themselves, we don't have a problem with bearded white guys bum rushing hardware stores to steal axes and saws. Then you haven't been paying attention... Try working retail when they come to a store to buy things, they are almost as bad a gypsies sometimes. 
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| The smell is sometimes hard to get over... Try going to a really nice restaurant, $50 per person and up, and have an Amish family sit at the next table.... Hard to breathe to say the least... And no tables open to move to. Luckily the staff were snobbish and rude so I won't be going back anyway. |
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I honestly could care less about the Amish, they keep to themselves, we don't have a problem with bearded white guys bum rushing hardware stores to steal axes and saws. Then you haven't been paying attention... Try working retail when they come to a store to buy things, they are almost as bad a gypsies sometimes. I know a few Amish families personally, and have never seen this type of behavior. Of course, every town has it's idiot, and it's questionable people. |
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I honestly could care less about the Amish, they keep to themselves, we don't have a problem with bearded white guys bum rushing hardware stores to steal axes and saws. Then you haven't been paying attention... Try working retail when they come to a store to buy things, they are almost as bad a gypsies sometimes. Bigot much? 
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I honestly could care less about the Amish, they keep to themselves, we don't have a problem with bearded white guys bum rushing hardware stores to steal axes and saws. Then you haven't been paying attention... Try working retail when they come to a store to buy things, they are almost as bad a gypsies sometimes. Bigot much? The new guy is real mature. Awesome. 
It's not being a bigot if it's true. When they would come into the hardware store I worked at in HS we all would cringe. This is a store that has a hitching post and water buckets for their horses in the parking lot. They would fill their carts with stuff and then as they would change their mind and they would take it out and leave it everywhere and anywhere, and not just one item but many. It would take us hours to put everything back after they finished their shopping. |
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If Person A goes in to a gun store and purchases a firearm, with the sole intent of delivering it to Person B, it is only a "straw purchase" if Person B is prohibited from owning a firearm. Example: Father purchases handgun for 22 year old daughter's birthday present. Daughter is not a felon, not under judgement for domestic violence, and has not be judged mentally incompetent. Not a straw purchase. Example: Wife purchases shotgun for husband who has felony DUI conviction. This is a straw purchase.
I'm concerned "stronger state laws against straw purchases" will be written in a poor fashion and make illegal the purchase of firearms as gifts/presents. Photo ID is not required to keep and bear firearms. Social Security is not required to keep and bear firearms. If an Amish individual is no prohibited by law from owning firearms, then the purchase and subsequent delivery of said firearm is not a straw purchase. |
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Kuraki I understand what you are saying and I too would like to see it remain easy to get dad or daughter or whoever a firearm as a gift. I do not however think that anyone should have their neighbor buying them their guns. If you want a gun and can legally buy it then why have someone else do it for you?
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I honestly could care less about the Amish, they keep to themselves, we don't have a problem with bearded white guys bum rushing hardware stores to steal axes and saws. Then you haven't been paying attention... Try working retail when they come to a store to buy things, they are almost as bad a gypsies sometimes. Bigot much? Really. You are going to go there? My decisions are based on my life experiences, no two people are the same or have the same views. It takes a lot of balls to come out swinging like that when you have no idea what you are talking about. Too bad you don’t know me in person, you might be retracting your statement. |
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If the Amish who want the firearms are legally able to own them I do not see the big deal about it. Why are they above the law? In some instances, yes they are above the law. They don't pay Social Security. They aren't required to sign up for the draft. It is against their religious beliefs. The Amish are the least of our worries. Now, if it were some burqua'd woman that was denied a firearm purchase because she could not get a photo id, as it would be against their beliefs, there would be an outcry of epic proportions. But since it's the Amish... we just tell them to pound sand? I don't think people should be able to use religion or their beliefs as an excuse to circumvent laws that are in place for a reason. That's just opening the door for bad guys to abuse that loophole. that said I thought it was only a straw purchase if the recipient was not able to obtain a gun on their own legally. But I could be mistaken. |
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I'm concerned "stronger state laws against straw purchases" will be written in a poor fashion and make illegal the purchase of firearms as gifts/presents. . Me, too. Our family likes to do this for each other, and we're all legally allowed to purchase and own firearms. It's nice when everyone can pitch in and get something for dad, and hopefully this won't be illegal with the laws being solidified on this matter. I'm all for strengthening the straw purchase laws and punishments, but not for making it a felony to get something for my wife or kids who don't even have a parking ticket, let alone a felony. |
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Kuraki I understand what you are saying and I too would like to see it remain easy to get dad or daughter or whoever a firearm as a gift. I do not however think that anyone should have their neighbor buying them their guns. If you want a gun and can legally buy it then why have someone else do it for you? Because the first thing the dealer asks you for is your drivers license. If they're not given state identification, it makes it quite hard for both the dealer to comply with the laws that apply to him, and for the purchaser to comply with with laws that apply to him, when it's both quite simple and legal for a neighbor as you say, to purchase and then transfer that firearm. I don't have any problem with it, because I see it as the same thing as a private transaction. I concern myself with the deregulation of firearms and firearms transaction. Not "strengthening" the laws on the books, or "giving another tool in the toolbox" or any of the other LE and Liberal excuses for our rights to be curtailed. The unintended consequences of legislation that is supposedly written to bar/ban/prohibit behavior of one kind all to often bars/bans/prohibits perfectly acceptable behavior that it was never intended to influence. Those laws are then rarely challenged or changed. |
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I'm concerned "stronger state laws against straw purchases" will be written in a poor fashion and make illegal the purchase of firearms as gifts/presents. . Me, too. Our family likes to do this for each other, and we're all legally allowed to purchase and own firearms. It's nice when everyone can pitch in and get something for dad, and hopefully this won't be illegal with the laws being solidified on this matter. I'm all for strengthening the straw purchase laws and punishments, but not for making it a felony to get something for my wife or kids who don't even have a parking ticket, let alone a felony. Why do you think it may be poorly written? Walker is signing a great CCW, castle doctrine is looking very promising with stand your ground and everything. I think WI is finally getting what we have been waiting for. I'm proud to be a WI firearms enthusiast. |
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If Person A goes in to a gun store and purchases a firearm, with the sole intent of delivering it to Person B, it is only a "straw purchase" if Person B is prohibited from owning a firearm. When you state on the 4473 that you are the actual purchaser, you are making a false statement which is a crime. Unless, of course, that firearm is a bona fide gift. |
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I'm concerned "stronger state laws against straw purchases" will be written in a poor fashion and make illegal the purchase of firearms as gifts/presents. . Me, too. Our family likes to do this for each other, and we're all legally allowed to purchase and own firearms. It's nice when everyone can pitch in and get something for dad, and hopefully this won't be illegal with the laws being solidified on this matter. I'm all for strengthening the straw purchase laws and punishments, but not for making it a felony to get something for my wife or kids who don't even have a parking ticket, let alone a felony. Why do you think it may be poorly written? Walker is signing a great CCW, castle doctrine is looking very promising with stand your ground and everything. I think WI is finally getting what we have been waiting for. I'm proud to be a WI firearms enthusiast. Good point. I've grown accustomed to getting screwed by our state gov't, but the GOP has been doing a good job on these laws and the NRA has worked closely with them. |
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If Person A goes in to a gun store and purchases a firearm, with the sole intent of delivering it to Person B, it is only a "straw purchase" if Person B is prohibited from owning a firearm. When you state on the 4473 that you are the actual purchaser, you are making a false statement which is a crime. Unless, of course, that firearm is a bona fide gift. That's true, and it's defined that way on the 4473. Now I have to research because I believe that the law and the form contradict each other. |
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If Person A goes in to a gun store and purchases a firearm, with the sole intent of delivering it to Person B, it is only a "straw purchase" if Person B is prohibited from owning a firearm. When you state on the 4473 that you are the actual purchaser, you are making a false statement which is a crime. Unless, of course, that firearm is a bona fide gift. That's true, and it's defined that way on the 4473. Now I have to research because I believe that the law and the form contradict each other. What I get from the GCA is: It's only illegal to purchase, and then transfer to, another person in your state, if that person is prohibited from owning a firearm. It's also unlawful to misrepresent information to the dealer or licensee, which would be that box on the 4473. So unless it's a bona fide "gift," the transfer of the firearm itself isn't unlawful, but the misrepresentation on the form is unlawful. The easement for this is that the true purchaser can go through a rigamoroll with sending a sworn affidavit to the dealer and some nonsense from the CLEO and never be present and still receive the firearm, but I doubt that's ever done. So it seems to me that "straw buyer" is a term invented to "close loopholes" and rather than being codified into law, it's only the form that makes it unlawful. But I could be wrong. Ultimately what I'm afraid of is the screwing up of purchasing legitimate gifts for family/friends. |
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If Person A goes in to a gun store and purchases a firearm, with the sole intent of delivering it to Person B, it is only a "straw purchase" if Person B is prohibited from owning a firearm. When you state on the 4473 that you are the actual purchaser, you are making a false statement which is a crime. Unless, of course, that firearm is a bona fide gift. That's true, and it's defined that way on the 4473. Now I have to research because I believe that the law and the form contradict each other. What I get from the GCA is: It's only illegal to purchase, and then transfer to, another person in your state, if that person is prohibited from owning a firearm. It's also unlawful to misrepresent information to the dealer or licensee, which would be that box on the 4473. So unless it's a bona fide "gift," the transfer of the firearm itself isn't unlawful, but the misrepresentation on the form is unlawful. The easement for this is that the true purchaser can go through a rigamoroll with sending a sworn affidavit to the dealer and some nonsense from the CLEO and never be present and still receive the firearm, but I doubt that's ever done. So it seems to me that "straw buyer" is a term invented to "close loopholes" and rather than being codified into law, it's only the form that makes it unlawful. But I could be wrong. Ultimately what I'm afraid of is the screwing up of purchasing legitimate gifts for family/friends. Your right, this is very confusing. I wonder why this has never been brought up before.
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Ultimately what I'm afraid of is the screwing up of purchasing legitimate gifts for family/friends. Your right, this is very confusing. I wonder why this has never been brought up before.
Because our law, both state and federal, is so confusing, that's why I'm worried about "strengthening" laws. I'm not worried that our GOP Senate or Assembly won't intend to make straw buying more easily punished, or whatever, while intending to keep things the way they are for law abiding citizens, but because it's so convoluted they may mistakenly screw us over, and that mistake may not present itself until someone looks for it say 4 or 8 years from now with a wildly different regime in Madison who cares very very little about fixing it, or worse yet, proposes it was always meant to be that way. |
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Ultimately what I'm afraid of is the screwing up of purchasing legitimate gifts for family/friends. Your right, this is very confusing. I wonder why this has never been brought up before.
Because our law, both state and federal, is so confusing, that's why I'm worried about "strengthening" laws. I'm not worried that our GOP Senate or Assembly won't intend to make straw buying more easily punished, or whatever, while intending to keep things the way they are for law abiding citizens, but because it's so convoluted they may mistakenly screw us over, and that mistake may not present itself until someone looks for it say 4 or 8 years from now with a wildly different regime in Madison who cares very very little about fixing it, or worse yet, proposes it was always meant to be that way. Time to write our representatives. |
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The exact wording of 11.a is:
Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearms to you. (See Instructions for Question II.a.) Exception: If you are picking lip a repaired firearm for another person, you are not required to answer II.a and may proceed to question II.b. And from the back of the form: Question 11.a. Actual Transferee/Buyer: For purposes of this form you are the actual transferee/buyer if you arc purchasing the firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (e.g., redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment. firearm raffle winner). You are the actual transferee/buyer if you are legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift for a third party. ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT THE ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/ BUYER of the firearm and must answer "NO" to question I La. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr. Brown goes to buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm and should answer "YES" to question 11.a. However, you may not transfer a firearm to any person you know or have reasonable cause to believe is prohibited under 18 U.S.C. § 922(g), (n), or (x). Please note: EXCEPTION: If you are picking up a repaired firearm(s) for another person, you are not required to answer 11.a. and may proceed to question 11. b. Then lets go to Section B, check out queation 20.a: Identification (e.g.. Virginia Driver's license (VA DL) or other valid government-issued photo identification.) (See Instructions Or Question 20.a.) Instructions to 20.a read: Question 20a. Identification: List issuing authority (e,g., State, County or Municipality) and type of identification presented (e,g., lc7rginia driver's license (VA DLj. or other valid government-issued identification. Know Your Customer: Before a licensee may sell or deliver a firearm to a non-licensee, the licensee must establish the identity, place of residence, and age of the buyer. The buyer must provide a valid government-issued photo identification to the seller that contains the buyer's name, residence address, and date of birth. The licensee must record the type, identification number, and expiration date (if any) of the identification in question 20.a. A driver's license or an identification card issued by a State in place of a license is acceptable. Social Security cards are not acceptable because no address, date of birth, or photograph is shown on the cards. A combination of government issued documents may be provided. For example, if a U.S. citizen has two States of residence and is trying to buy a handgun in State X, he may provide a driver's license (showing his name, date of birth, and photograph) issued by State Y and another government-issued document (Such as a tax document) from State X showing his residence address. If the buyer is a member of the Armed Forces on active duty acquiring a firearm in the State where his or her permanent duty station is located, but he or she has a driver's license from another State. You should list the buyer's military identification card and official orders showing where his or her permanent duty station is located in response to question 20.a. |