Posted: 6/23/2011 11:39:08 AM EDT
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Didn't see another applicable thread for this. I just can't wrap my head around this logic.
This comes from my wife....now I love her and like most straight me, love women, but this has to be women logic. I've never heard this before, but she has brought it up several times and says her friends feel the same way. Also, understand that my wife comes shooting with me, and is happy she knows how to use her 9mm S&W M&P. We differ a bit on how the kids should be introduced to guns (4 and 6) but for the most part we are on the same page.....until CCW comes up. She says, and I'm not going to lie and say this is word for word, but it boils down too, 'Great, now that they passed this, I have to carry.' After asking her why, she responds, 'well now there there will be guns I don't know about around me everywhere, I'll have to carry to feel safe' I say, 'so you feel the need to protect yourself from other licensed carriers, but were fine when only the criminals carried' Her responce was, 'well, we live in West Bend, there really are no criminals carrying illegally' The conversation went on, but I sort of dropped it to make sure I could still get some if the opportunity were to arise....but really, anyone every talk to someone with this mentality? She agrees that a 'no guns allowed here' sign is like an invitation to an armed robber to 'come here because you won't get shot at' sign, but gets really pissed off when I mention I don't want to go there anymore. Thanks for any input/opinions. |
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There's no real arguments with this. It's just emotive thinking, rather than reasoning. After a few months to a year of being out and about and never even seeing/knowing anyone who is carrying around the West Bend area, she'll only carry based off her perceptions of her need to do so in terms of potential crime. My wife won't have the same feelings, but will cause me problems over her emotions about me carrying over for similar irrational reasons. She's all for Concealed Carry, knows the arguments against it are dumb and not true, and knows it's not a problem in other states that have had it for years. However, if we were to go out as a family, to shop or eat, run errands or whatever, and I carry, she will flip her lid over it, I guarantee it. It will be "wrong" and "innapropriate" without her being able to give me clear logical reasons as to why. It will be a BAD fight, to the point that she might refuse to leave the house, or try to leave me behind etc. I'll just have to stay the course until she's used to it, and her emotions lead her elsewhere. Or, just carry and not tell her, trip her up into thinking I'm not carrying if she actually goes so far as to pat me down etc. then later reveal I actually WAS carrying all those times and she was "just fine". (shrug) I know this is how it'll go...  I think the REAL reason behind most concealed carry objections is that it really stabs you right in the gut with the knowledge that something bad/crime COULD happen to you anywhere, and it breaks the denial bubble most people put up around such things. The normal initial response to anyone who bursts the denial bubble shield is to attack the messenger. People were the same way about seat belts in cars at one time until the 50's/60's... whenever it was they were made manditory. "What? Are you EXPECTING TO CRASH? What's wrong with you? Are you THAT BAD of a driver?" That's the seat belt version of, "Why are you carrying a gun, think you're a tough guy, are you looking for trouble?" or... "What are you AFRAID of?" that a gun must mean cowardice on your part of some sort. And "I'd rather be 'thrown clear' of the wreckage than be trapped in a burning wreck!" was the seat belt version of "A gun will just make the bad guy shoot you, when he'd have just run away after robbing you." or, "Your gun will just be taken away from you..." Seat belts were ultimately hated because they broke the denial bubble about car crashes. Now, everyone's used to them and it seems odd or downright irresponsible to not have them. Firearms for concealed carry will be the same way. |
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I think her reasoning is that she doesnt trust other people that may be legally CCWing. She thinks that because others may not be responsible (like you and her) that she will have to carry because of a situation that they (other people) create by being irresponsible.
Thats what I get out of it anyway. |
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I don't know if this helps calm her fears about other people carrying or not.
Here are some statistics for Florida since much of the Wisconsin's new law is based off of Florida's (with respect to the training & fees). 1,992,296 licenses were issued in Florida from: 10/1/87 - 05/31//11 Of those 6,287 were revoked (or 0.31556 percent). Of that number 5,568 were for a crime after licensure (or 0.27947 percent). Of those 168 involved a firearm (or 0.00843 percent). http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly.html Hardly a picture of mayhem or recklessness! For further reference the Population of Florida is 18,328,340 vs the Population of Wisconsin which is 5,654,774. |
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Thanks for the seat belt comparo, and the 'denial bubble' thoughts, that actually really helps me.
40xb - that is a big part of it....my logical reasoning of 'why would someone wanting to do bad get a permit, or wait until carry is legal' is poorly countered with, 'well there are more guns, so if someone gets mad or is drinking, you never know' There is some logic there, but most who will carry will understand the responsibilty it entails. I guess it is almost as illogical as my reasoning for being terrified of Lasik....no procedure is 100% guaranteed, I have this fear that I'll be that .001% that goes blind. Same irrational thinking pattern I guess. |
I also find her notion of "I'll be FORCED to carry" interesting.  It almost has a undertone to it that she feels carrying is "bad" somehow. Perhaps it seems "aggressive" somehow to her, or just another manifestation of popping the denial bubble shield. And if circumstances somehow "force" her to carry, then she's absolved some moral responsibility of it. Honestly, what good is a CCW going to do her if she's getting shot up by these theoretical drunken angry dipshits who are going to be perforating her with ND's/AD's and random angry fire? And even if you do catch an ND in the kiester, I'm pretty sure WI law STILL does not permit you to plug the retard back.  So perhaps it's a blame-shifting mechanisim. Worrying about incompetent CCW'ers gives her some sort of justification that she's being forced to carry, without having to confront the idea of random rapists and muggers. The sad thing is that even if you do ferret out the right non-logical emotive thinking process your wife is having, my married experiences tell me she's very unlikely to just come around and thank you for it.
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Quoted:
I think her reasoning is that she doesnt trust other people that may be legally CCWing. She thinks that because others may not be responsible (like you and her) that she will have to carry because of a situation that they (other people) create by being irresponsible. Thats what I get out of it anyway. Bingo. Me too. |
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Thanks for the seat belt comparo, and the 'denial bubble' thoughts, that actually really helps me. 40xb - that is a big part of it....my logical reasoning of 'why would someone wanting to do bad get a permit, or wait until carry is legal' is poorly countered with, 'well there are more guns, so if someone gets mad or is drinking, you never know' There is some logic there, but most who will carry will understand the responsibilty it entails. I guess it is almost as illogical as my reasoning for being terrified of Lasik....no procedure is 100% guaranteed, I have this fear that I'll be that .001% that goes blind. Same irrational thinking pattern I guess. I was speaking with a local Chief of Police yesterday about the CCW bill. He wanted more training, but I told him that it was in the Constitution  , because he was concerned with officer safety. I asked him why and his response was: (paraphrasing) "I am happy that people can now CCW but I think that at first it will be a novelty to people who want to get it just because its cool or popular. I would want people to be trained better so they can handle situations better like the police do."
He was under the impression that you would have to do a 4 hours course like UT. I then let him know that by the language of the law that hunter safety was valid as the required training. His response: "what does hunter safety have to do with knowing when it is ok and not ok to shoot legally or tactically?" In his opinion he thinks that CCW permits will skyrocket for the first bit but then the renewals will be fewer as people grow out of favor with it. A theory is that a few people will do something dumb with CCW. The questio is how much will it effect you? People can be interesting beings. You never know what someone will do or not do and it effect your life. Do I trust everyone to CCW responsibly? NO. Will I have a plan or an idea of how to protect myself and my family from a threat including another CCWer? You damn well bet I will. |
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Thanks for the seat belt comparo, and the 'denial bubble' thoughts, that actually really helps me. 40xb - that is a big part of it....my logical reasoning of 'why would someone wanting to do bad get a permit, or wait until carry is legal' is poorly countered with, 'well there are more guns, so if someone gets mad or is drinking, you never know' There is some logic there, but most who will carry will understand the responsibilty it entails. I guess it is almost as illogical as my reasoning for being terrified of Lasik....no procedure is 100% guaranteed, I have this fear that I'll be that .001% that goes blind. Same irrational thinking pattern I guess. I was speaking with a local Chief of Police yesterday about the CCW bill. He wanted more training, but I told him that it was in the Constitution , because he was concerned with officer safety. I asked him why and his response was: (paraphrasing) "I am happy that people can now CCW but I think that at first it will be a novelty to people who want to get it just because its cool or popular. I would want people to be trained better so they can handle situations better like the police do."
He was under the impression that you would have to do a 4 hours course like UT. I then let him know that by the language of the law that hunter safety was valid as the required training. His response: "what does hunter safety have to do with knowing when it is ok and not ok to shoot legally or tactically?" In his opinion he thinks that CCW permits will skyrocket for the first bit but then the renewals will be fewer as people grow out of favor with it. A theory is that a few people will do something dumb with CCW. The questio is how much will it effect you? People can be interesting beings. You never know what someone will do or not do and it effect your life. Do I trust everyone to CCW responsibly? NO. Will I have a plan or an idea of how to protect myself and my family from a threat including another CCWer? You damn well bet I will. Yes, they are, good example in red. You can classify threats to include CCW.. A threat that can cause you bodily harm and justifies the use of deadly force is just that... weather that threat comes from a gang banger, an armed robber or a CCW holder, makes no difference. When the AWB was lifted, those same LEO's thought there would be blood in the street, 
Bottom line is you carry because you take responsibility for your own safety, or you rely on some one else... that's it. I don't factor anything else in, no reason too. A threat that justifies the use of Deadly force... I don't need to classify it... just react to it and take appropriate steps to protect myself and my family for it... |
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I live in west bend. Didn't you guys hear about the armed robber at the new walgreens a short while ago? If she thinks no criminals are carrying in west bend, then she's mistaken. The sad fact is, the criminals are going farther and farther away from the "big city" crime areas these days.
Didn't see another applicable thread for this. I just can't wrap my head around this logic. This comes from my wife....now I love her and like most straight me, love women, but this has to be women logic. I've never heard this before, but she has brought it up several times and says her friends feel the same way. Also, understand that my wife comes shooting with me, and is happy she knows how to use her 9mm S&W M&P. We differ a bit on how the kids should be introduced to guns (4 and 6) but for the most part we are on the same page.....until CCW comes up. She says, and I'm not going to lie and say this is word for word, but it boils down too, 'Great, now that they passed this, I have to carry.' After asking her why, she responds, 'well now there there will be guns I don't know about around me everywhere, I'll have to carry to feel safe' I say, 'so you feel the need to protect yourself from other licensed carriers, but were fine when only the criminals carried' Her responce was, 'well, we live in West Bend, there really are no criminals carrying illegally' The conversation went on, but I sort of dropped it to make sure I could still get some if the opportunity were to arise....but really, anyone every talk to someone with this mentality? She agrees that a 'no guns allowed here' sign is like an invitation to an armed robber to 'come here because you won't get shot at' sign, but gets really pissed off when I mention I don't want to go there anymore. Thanks for any input/opinions. |
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I live in west bend. Didn't you guys hear about the armed robber at the new walgreens a short while ago? If she thinks no criminals are carrying in west bend, then she's mistaken. The sad fact is, the criminals are going farther and farther away from the "big city" crime areas these days. Nothing worth stealing in north milwaukee anymore. |
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Quoted: Quoted: I live in west bend. Didn't you guys hear about the armed robber at the new walgreens a short while ago? If she thinks no criminals are carrying in west bend, then she's mistaken. The sad fact is, the criminals are going farther and farther away from the "big city" crime areas these days. Nothing worth stealing in north milwaukee anymore. I want to laugh because that is funny –– but the sad part is you are absolutely right. |
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I'm a fresh college grad, and most of the job positions I'm looking at are in the downtown MKE area. Not really a fan, but I have to pay the bills. This will lead to looking for a 2-3 br for me and the wife. She works in 'tosa, but there is nowhere in between that I would consider living, as she hasn't yet been converted to my mindset. I am not concerned for myself as I don't own anything worth stealing, and I'm willing to defend myself, However, she likes nice stuff and would prefer to hope the baddie has mercy. I'm working on that.
But because of this job search, I have learned what areas to avoid. It is a surprisingly large area. See blue area. Have been told to look for housing outside this area. 
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I live in west bend. Didn't you guys hear about the armed robber at the new walgreens a short while ago? If she thinks no criminals are carrying in west bend, then she's mistaken. The sad fact is, the criminals are going farther and farther away from the "big city" crime areas these days. No, I didn't hear about the walgreens robbery. It seems a lot of that sort of stuff is attempted to keep hush hush so the sheep wont be afraid to go to a certain place. A BMW guy in west bend, cool. What do you sport? I have the annoyingly loug black e39 floating around if you've seen it. |
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Quoted: I'm a fresh college grad, and most of the job positions I'm looking at are in the downtown MKE area. Not really a fan, but I have to pay the bills. This will lead to looking for a 2-3 br for me and the wife. She works in 'tosa, but there is nowhere in between that I would consider living, as she hasn't yet been converted to my mindset. I am not concerned for myself as I don't own anything worth stealing, and I'm willing to defend myself, However, she likes nice stuff and would prefer to hope the baddie has mercy. I'm working on that. But because of this job search, I have learned what areas to avoid. It is a surprisingly large area. See blue area. Have been told to look for housing outside this area. http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/269178_10150246787324185_500229184_7141749_589926_n.jpg Yep, avoid the smaller red area to the south too. And avoid a buffer zone of at least 20 blocks of either zone. And avoid a buffer zone of about 100 blocks of either zone along major arterial roads/bus routes if you can help it. And avoid living anywhere in Milwaukee proper, there's several neighborhoods in Milwaukee that are actually nicer than some parts of some surrounding burbs, but if you get stuck there, have a kid and can't get out before it's five years old, you don't want them in MPS. Are you from the area originally? (sounds like you're not) You can live completely outside Milwaukee county and still get into downtown in 20 minutes or so. The county is very narrow east to west, only like 6-9 miles across. The one positive about Milwaukee is that while it's a major city with all the amenities (and problems) it's still geographically very small, and the commutes are really quite short as compared to LA, Chicago, NYC, DC Metro area, Atlanta etc. It's only really a PITA if you're used to the countryside or something. If you're a demographics nut and know how, do a density search on non owner-occupied rental property by suburb. That will be a big clue to refining where you're searching too. |
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If you're a demographics nut and know how, do a density search on non owner-occupied rental property by suburb. That will be a big clue to refining where you're searching too. Would you mind telling us how to do that? I tried going to the Census.gov website a few weeks ago to put a map similar to the one you described together but I couldn't get it to work. I would also appreciate knowing where the crime map above came from. |
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I live in west bend. Didn't you guys hear about the armed robber at the new walgreens a short while ago? If she thinks no criminals are carrying in west bend, then she's mistaken. The sad fact is, the criminals are going farther and farther away from the "big city" crime areas these days. No, I didn't hear about the walgreens robbery. It seems a lot of that sort of stuff is attempted to keep hush hush so the sheep wont be afraid to go to a certain place. A BMW guy in west bend, cool. What do you sport? I have the annoyingly loug black e39 floating around if you've seen it. We have a silver 330xi (e46) and a BMW X3 SUV. I've seen a fair amount of BMW's in WB so I'm sure I've seen you somewhere. :p |
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I live in west bend. Didn't you guys hear about the armed robber at the new walgreens a short while ago? If she thinks no criminals are carrying in west bend, then she's mistaken. The sad fact is, the criminals are going farther and farther away from the "big city" crime areas these days. No, I didn't hear about the walgreens robbery. It seems a lot of that sort of stuff is attempted to keep hush hush so the sheep wont be afraid to go to a certain place. A BMW guy in west bend, cool. What do you sport? I have the annoyingly loug black e39 floating around if you've seen it. We have a silver 330xi (e46) and a BMW X3 SUV. I've seen a fair amount of BMW's in WB so I'm sure I've seen you somewhere. :p Cool, I meant annoyinglu loud....not loug, hahaha. |
You can ask None, my wife absolutely wants me to carry, and she wants to carry also. I currently own three pistols, a 22, a G19 and a G17. She's already informed me she, SHE is going to carry MY G19. My dad also wants my, MY G19. So do I.  I'm thinking I may have to buy TWO more G19's! The wife also wants to attend a CCW class, or a pistol class of some sort. "How not to get shot, but to defend yourself". TommyT, None and others have steered her properly. She will be attending a Sully class. Me too. I think it's nice that we won't HAVE to take a class, but I would never allow her to carry without taking one, and I would feel better about myself too. I can shoot pretty well, but the mechanics of it...  So, in short... not all wives are against. I think her defining moment was watching Jericho a few years ago. Right after we watched that series, she wanted a pistol. |
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Quoted: You can ask None, my wife absolutely wants me to carry, and she wants to carry also. I currently own three pistols, a 22, a G19 and a G17. She's already informed me she, SHE is going to carry MY G19. My dad also wants my, MY G19. So do I. I'm thinking I may have to buy TWO more G19's! The wife also wants to attend a CCW class, or a pistol class of some sort. "How not to get shot, but to defend yourself". TommyT, None and others have steered her properly. She will be attending a Sully class. Me too. I think it's nice that we won't HAVE to take a class, but I would never allow her to carry without taking one, and I would feel better about myself too. I can shoot pretty well, but the mechanics of it... So, in short... not all wives are against. I think her defining moment was watching Jericho a few years ago. Right after we watched that series, she wanted a pistol. We need more Jericho. Still pisses me off they killed it. It did wonders for making people think. It would be significantly more effective today –– modify the premise slightly. So can a Sully class be arranged for a group of X people, i.e. arfcommers? And how many G19's do we have to group buy to get a deal?!?! Speaking of Glock, the aforementioned "movie voice" clip is: "The movie in this theater is projected in 1080P, presented in Dolby Digital, and protected by Glock."  |
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Quoted: Quoted: You can ask None, my wife absolutely wants me to carry, and she wants to carry also. I currently own three pistols, a 22, a G19 and a G17. She's already informed me she, SHE is going to carry MY G19. My dad also wants my, MY G19. So do I. I'm thinking I may have to buy TWO more G19's! The wife also wants to attend a CCW class, or a pistol class of some sort. "How not to get shot, but to defend yourself". TommyT, None and others have steered her properly. She will be attending a Sully class. Me too. I think it's nice that we won't HAVE to take a class, but I would never allow her to carry without taking one, and I would feel better about myself too. I can shoot pretty well, but the mechanics of it... So, in short... not all wives are against. I think her defining moment was watching Jericho a few years ago. Right after we watched that series, she wanted a pistol. We need more Jericho. Still pisses me off they killed it. It did wonders for making people think. It would be significantly more effective today –– modify the premise slightly. So can a Sully class be arranged for a group of X people, i.e. arfcommers? And how many G19's do we have to group buy to get a deal?!?! Speaking of Glock, the aforementioned "movie voice" clip is: "The movie in this theater is projected in 1080P, presented in Dolby Digital, and protected by Glock." Pisses me off too. It really opened the wifes eyes as to what we should be doing as far as food storage, firearms and ammo. I would like to see a womans only class. Less pressure. And a class for us fat bastards. I really need a copy of that movie voice... and to learn more about becoming a Tenn. Squire.  |
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Yep, avoid the smaller red area to the south too. And avoid a buffer zone of at least 20 blocks of either zone. And avoid a buffer zone of about 100 blocks of either zone along major arterial roads/bus routes if you can help it. And avoid living anywhere in Milwaukee proper, there's several neighborhoods in Milwaukee that are actually nicer than some parts of some surrounding burbs, but if you get stuck there, have a kid and can't get out before it's five years old, you don't want them in MPS. Are you from the area originally? (sounds like you're not) You can live completely outside Milwaukee county and still get into downtown in 20 minutes or so. The county is very narrow east to west, only like 6-9 miles across. The one positive about Milwaukee is that while it's a major city with all the amenities (and problems) it's still geographically very small, and the commutes are really quite short as compared to LA, Chicago, NYC, DC Metro area, Atlanta etc. It's only really a PITA if you're used to the countryside or something. If you're a demographics nut and know how, do a density search on non owner-occupied rental property by suburb. That will be a big clue to refining where you're searching too. Yeah, I'm a Green Bay resident. I can tell you all of the above about GB, but the MKE I have only been to occasionally for family visits, etc. They have all fled to the outer burbs long ago, save for one uncle who still owns property near North and 60th. I was thinking of living in 'tosa and just living with the commute on 94 daily. I would hate it, but it's doable. I have driven in LA traffic on a motorcycle, and didn't find it to be that bad because I could lane split. If i was in a car, it would have driven me mad. I am from the countryside (relatively speaking) as I grew up in a 'burb of GB, and you can be anywhere in the GB area in less than 15 minutes. There are almost never traffic jams, and you can be looking at cows and corn within 10 minutes of any house in the city. |