Posted: 12/7/2008 10:38:12 PM EDT
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I need your help. Please keep a semi open mind about this. I am thinking longterm on this.
My Father is 68 years old. An Air Force Vietnam Veteran and an old school WI deer hunter that has hinted to me, his gun is too heavy... Currently he carries a very nice rifle that he is very proud of, but due to health issues has become a bit cumbersome. Mainly because he ripped his rotator cuff. So I do not know how his range of motion is constricted, but it is... So in an effort to ease his burden and not hear another year of "if you find a semi auto...". I was not deaf, I just was trying to buy a house. So please help me out. I need an upper for my lower that I will "loan" to my Dad. It will not save him a ton of weight, but it will be a nimble Winchester 94 carbine-like feel. I have thought of two that make sense to me but I may be biased based on my personal needs. Option 1. .458 SOCOM upper. RRA $700. Factory Spec. Chromoly. Option 2. 6.5 Grendel. 16". Sabre or Alexander. Chome lined. To be put on a Spike's Tactical lower with Timney 4lb trigger and Magpul ACS (if it happens) or milspec CTR. It will be a safe queen upper that sees the light of hunting season, nothing more. (It will be sighted in and checked prior to actual use.) It will be paired to an existing Leupold 1.75X6 Vari-X III (short tube, older version) that is mine. Most likely with a Larue mount to avoid ANY eye relief issues. One day, it will be "mine". Personally my hunting gun bases are covered or will be. So I want to fill a "void" in my colllection and have something that will work for a petite female, who is now 4 years old, but will one day (hopefully) understand that things die and the circle of life is what makes bacon, etc. Please ask questions. I am short and stock length makes a difference for me. I have a Brownining BAR Mark II .30-06 already and it is way too long for me... I am not interested in an AR10 sized frame due to weight. The BAR will not work for my daughter. If you have shot the .458 Socom and the recoil exceeds a 20ga 4" turkey load, please let me know. If you have buffer or spring recommendations, please make them for either the .458 SOCOM or Grendel. Thank you for any help you may provide. If you have an idea/thought and do not want to post it publicly just IM or email me. Merry Christmas!!! -Randy |
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Range will be 200 yards and under.
He already has a Winchester 94 30/30. He keeps saying "semi auto". The shoulder injury is the kicker. I think his range of motion is really restricted, so not having to work the lever, etc appears to be important to him. Historically he hunted with a Winchester 100 in .308. He keeps saying "semi auto". Thanks for the input. |
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You could also go with a 7.62X39 upper as well. Recoil would be about what he's used to, and ammo would be much cheaper and easier to find.
Another semi-auto option, rather than an AR based platform, would be a Remington 742/7400 18" barreled, carbine model, in .308. I have one of those, and I installed a Ramline synthetic stock and a very compact BSA "Deerhunter" 2-1/2X20 shotgun scope. Total weight isn't much over 6lbs. It's lightweight, short & maneuverable, and surprisingly accurate. Despite the Remington semi-auto's bad rap ("jam-o-matic") I've had mine for 10+ years and it's never jammed once. One of my hunting buddies uses a Ruger Mini-30 with Remington soft-point ammo. He's killed bucks with it, all dropped in their tracks. He's been using a peep sight, but he's thinking of adding the same BSA 2-1/2X20 scope (peeps aren't much good right at first shooting light without a tritum front sight). |
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Is it only range of motion or possible issues with supporting the weight as well.
I ask due to a freind dealing with a rotator cuff injury. Holding anything out infront of the shoulder is pure misery. She tried a M4gery with the stock collapsed and shouldered it easily, since she could keep her arm in a comfortable position. Didn't have alot of weight hanging out front. All in all the collapsed stock and light barrel means she can shoot away from the bench again |
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Quoted:
Is it only range of motion or possible issues with supporting the weight as well. I ask due to a freind dealing with a rotator cuff injury. Holding anything out infront of the shoulder is pure misery. She tried a M4gery with the stock collapsed and shouldered it easily, since she could keep her arm in a comfortable position. Didn't have alot of weight hanging out front. All in all the collapsed stock and light barrel means she can shoot away from the bench again I believe this is totally accurate. Supporting the weight is an issue. I want to confine the options to the AR15 platform. I am a mainstream kind of guy. Not too interested in reloading, etc. Too many other things I like to do. So given that the only real option I am considering is an AR15 upper. I want the best bang for the buck. The way I see it for me the options look like this: 1. .458 SOCOM, best brushgun like handling and range. Takes standard AR Mags. 2. 6.5 Grendel has more appeal to me than the 6.8 or 7.62X39 simply because it offers more range and all the ballistic extras of the 6.5mm (Ballistic Coefficient, sectional density), etc. 3. 6.8 and 7.62X39 would be options as well, but require additional inputs (i.e. magazines) that would be non-standard for me going forward. It has been difficult to see any trajectory chart for the .458 SOCOM. I realize it is a short range (<200m) type cartridge. The claims are "comparable to .45-70". This may be trivial, but having him like the round he is shooting is important. .223 is fine with a "perfect shot". I know it is possible to kill a deer with it, but to me it is "undergunning" for the environment he hunts in. Fine for an alfalfa field/corn field, but not so good in a thicker previously select cut woods where deer are moving through, not grazing, etc. For him to go from a 7mm Weatherby, which offers "see it, shoot it" trajectory and power to something other than a .30-06 or .270 would be a stretch and require some work to gain acceptance on my part. Unfortunately the 750/7400 Remington and BARs are a bit heavy as well. So I figured having the weight closer to his body would assist in shouldering and supporting the rifle. I just do not have anyone in my circle that has a .458 SOCOM or other non-standard round in an AR platform. Thus the question to all of you, seeking help. Thanks again for the input. |
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Quoted:
The way I see it for me the options look like this: 1. .458 SOCOM, best brushgun like handling and range. Takes standard AR Mags. 2. 6.5 Grendel has more appeal to me than the 6.8 or 7.62X39 simply because it offers more range and all the ballistic extras of the 6.5mm (Ballistic Coefficient, sectional density), etc. 3. 6.8 and 7.62X39 would be options as well, but require additional inputs (i.e. magazines) that would be non-standard for me going forward. It has been difficult to see any trajectory chart for the .458 SOCOM. I realize it is a short range (<200m) type cartridge. The claims are "comparable to .45-70". For info on the 458Socom check with Marty or Cold on this board or www.458socom.com For the socom figure 100yds max -heavy and slow. Over 100yds your looking at mortar trajectorys. There a few manufacturers loading the 458Socom consistently. This seem to do a run and not do it again for a long time. Currently it is a handloader cartridge, not to mention its a wait to get an upper for it. IIRC most seem to modify the feed lips on the mags to work with the size of the round better. I'm partial to the 6.5 Grendel. |
Dont forget the wulf 50 beowulf http://50beowulf.com/
I have taken 14 deer in 4 years 
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Quoted:
Dont forget the wulf 50 beowulf http://50beowulf.com/ http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c382/muskyjerk/DSC01251.jpg http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c382/muskyjerk/aImg_0039.jpg http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c382/muskyjerk/aImg_0011.jpg http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c382/muskyjerk/aImg_0003a.jpg http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c382/muskyjerk/Meandthelittleones.jpg http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c382/muskyjerk/IMG_0021.jpg I have taken 14 deer in 4 years http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c382/muskyjerk/IMG_0013.jpg I see all that practice on DBCL's running deer paid off! |
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If your dad is a good shot, I would get a Bushmaster with the 20" govt profile barrel in 5.56 1/9 twist, and load the 60gr nosler (either hanloads or Federal) This is the load I used to take a large doe this year, and she died pretty quickly.
If this is too much wieght, maybe a m16a1 upper. |
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NEF single shot in like .243 or 30-30.
An AR is not going to be lighter then that, and capacity shouldn't be an issue. If it has to be an AR, then a lightweight 16in 6.8 SPC upper. 6.8 will feed from a 5.56 mag reliably in small amounts, like 5-6 rounds, so you should be ok there as well. Though getting proper mags for it in the 10-15 round capacity shouldn't cost you all that much. |
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Quoted:
If your dad is a good shot, I would get a Bushmaster with the 20" govt profile barrel in 5.56 1/9 twist, and load the 60gr nosler (either hanloads or Federal) This is the load I used to take a large doe this year, and she died pretty quickly. If this is too much wieght, maybe a m16a1 upper. Yes he is a good shot. He has a knack fro hitting running deer (not ideal, I know) but he can shoot pretty darned well. I am aware of all the non-AR options. Single shots, compacts, Featherweights, Model 7s, etc. So 6.8 SPC, 6,5 Grendel, etc make sense. Even a .243 WSSM would work, but the viability of all of these cartridges is an issue. Since I am not handloading, nor do I intend to, I want something that is standard. 6.5 and 6.8 appear to be so. The .458 SOCOM .50 Beowolf, and .450 Bushmaster, although nice are not much better than a 20ga 11-87. I guess "lightness" is a relative term. Based off what I have seen in his range of motion, the thought of a vertical fergrip made sense to help him out a bit. I am looking at a pencily barrel when I search for makers, etc. I figure a good quaility barrel will not string shots too much, considering 2-3 may be all you can get off anyway... unless you are the .50 Beowolf guy with all the "deer porn". Nice shooting. You are doing your part. Thanks again for all the input. I wish when Browning decided to make the BAR Short/Longtracs they would have shaved a bit more than 5oz off of the standard BAR. 6lbs 10ozs vs. 6lbs 15ozs. That is as light as an AR give or take a few ounces. 5oz gained with polymers and an aluminium receiver???? So I will keep searching and looking at used racks, etc. A few Gander locations seem to be stacked with used BARs etc. But an AR is never out of the question. I just do not understand the premium you have to pay to get a 6.5 upper. $999 or so (Sabre). What gives???? Merry Christmas! |