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Posted: 1/24/2006 12:15:14 PM EDT
[#1]
This just in....................
from the website- http://www.bootsandsabers.com/index.php Doyle's Veto of PPA to Be Sustained I have an unconfirmed but reliable report that Doyle has managed to flip John Steinbrink’s vote. Steinbrink voted for the PPA, but will reportedly vote to sustain Doyle’s veto of it. Please… call, write, or visit John Steinbrink and remind him why he voted for the PPA in first place. Remind him that there is a good chance that Doyle will not be in office next year to deliver any promises that he made. Remind him that supporters of the PPA vote, write checks, and volunteer. Be nice, but firm. Perhaps his conscience will prevail over Doyle’s threats. Here’s his contact information: Madison Telephone (608) 266-0455 District Telephone (262) 694-5863 [email protected] It’s not looking good, but it’s not too late. |
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Posted: 1/24/2006 12:27:12 PM EDT
[#2]
No way that happened if doyle had an ace in the hole he'd want that vote happening today to make sure he gets what he wants.
Don't hurt to call or whatever but I'm putting my money on were fucked again. Here's to hoping the WSC will right this shit as they threatened to do in 03. |
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Posted: 1/24/2006 12:36:36 PM EDT
[#3]
I just got some mail today from Wisconsin Gun Owners out of Green Bay. They enclosed some post cards that they had all ready to go, all they wanted me to do was put postage and a return address on them and send them. The postcards were urging the 4 representatives to NOT override the veto. According to the WGO the bill is full of stuff that we don't want. It really got me thinking about whether we want this bill to go through, or do we want a clean bill? Does anybody have any dealings with the WGO? Is it a crackpot organization?
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Posted: 1/24/2006 1:33:24 PM EDT
[#4]
They're at least ignorant. The list of states that have started out with 'dirty' bills and cleaned them up once passed is long. You have to get your foot in the door somehow. If you hold out for a 'perfect' bill, your'e never going to get it. |
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Posted: 1/24/2006 1:36:33 PM EDT
[#5]
That was kind of the way I thought about it. There were things in the mailing that bothered me. Like the quote from the Appleton Chief of police saying that his officers will proceed with weapons drawn on any traffic stop involving a CCW licensee. |
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Posted: 1/24/2006 2:45:19 PM EDT
[#6]
I know things are thin with Doyle in there but I will just keep croissing my fingers.
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Posted: 1/24/2006 3:24:29 PM EDT
[#7]
Now that's just idiotic. The people carrying WITHOUT a CCL are the ones police need to worry about, not the ones who spent hundreds of dollars and 26 hours training getting their permit. |
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Posted: 1/24/2006 3:29:15 PM EDT
[#8]
The list is long, and the time they took to get their CCW laws cleaned up is longer (10+ years in some cases). As for the "foot in the door" we already have that with Hamdan. I take it you've read The Law, based on you screen name. What do you think ol' Fred would do? I've got no love for the WGO, nor will I be calling my reps and telling them not to override, but if anyone thinks... even for a minute... that this version of the PPA will somehow suddenly turn the tide of Anti-Gun sentiment in Wisconsin (Madison), or that we'll somehow have a good set of CCW laws through legislation before 2010: you're smoking crack. The last part above is directed at the whole HTF (WI gun owners), not bastiat specifically. ETA: I'd love to be wrong on this, but I'm a student of history. |
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Posted: 1/24/2006 3:29:51 PM EDT
[#9]
That's exactly what I thought. A CCL should be like a "good guy" card to a JBT who is running your license plate. I think they should draw down on any car that doesn't have a CCL holder in it. 
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Posted: 1/24/2006 4:00:41 PM EDT
[#10]
apparently no one has seen what is attached to this bill. this is antigun legislation at its finest. im in favor of a clean carry bill but not this second amendment infringement. check it out people . this is not good, dont count on cleaning it up latter the antis dont ever allow this willingly.
"They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin http://www.wisconsingunowners.org/main.htm |
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Posted: 1/24/2006 5:29:32 PM EDT
[#11]
WGO is at best a crackpot group, at worst antis in disguise.
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Posted: 1/24/2006 5:35:12 PM EDT
[#12]
they need to hurry up .. my bama permit ends in july
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Posted: 1/25/2006 4:30:29 AM EDT
[#13]
You've just described nearly every gun group in the country. See my previous statement on smoking crack for clarification. 
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Posted: 1/25/2006 5:03:50 AM EDT
[#14]
Wisconsin residents won't be able to carry on an out of state non res permit.
And what anti-gun amendment would that be? The school amendment thing, thats not really all that bad when you really look at it Glenn_r gave a pretty good break down on it a while back. I love the no compramise spirit that WGO has, however the way they go about things is not going to get anything productive done. Would I have prefered the bill to go through without the last amendment, you bet yer ass I would. Would I prefer a clean bill to what we got, sure as hell would. But what I really want, is constitutional carry as in no need for a law that says I can carry either open or concealed. I don't believe in having to ask premission or pay a fee so that I can exercise my constitutional rights, don;t matter if that be at the state or federal level. |
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Posted: 1/25/2006 5:05:41 AM EDT
[#15]
There was language added in one of the amendments that spesificly prohibits offciers from drawing thier guns just because they stopped a CCW holder. This was added suposedly because of the comments of the Appelton police chief. |
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Posted: 1/25/2006 6:24:38 AM EDT
[#16]
Just saw this in a GB press gazette- linky
He was one of the 6 dems who voted for the PPA after it was amended with the school zones shit and the packing while drinking shit. So remeber we needed all 6 dems to stay with us according to WCCA and Zien's office, well this is one thats not staying with us, so that would mean that we more then likely will not get the veto override. |
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Posted: 1/25/2006 9:24:55 AM EDT
[#17]
I can't stand the WGO.
If we can't get a CCW law passed with all the extra B.S. attached to it, how the heck are we going to get a Vermont-style CCW law? They could at least stay nutral on the issue, rather than undermine the whole process. Everyone keeps jumping up and down about Hamden, but so far it hasn't amounted to much - just a lot of rhetoric. WI is getting more and more liberal as the years go by. Cheap housing brings in the IL democrats - and we will never have CCW. Av. |
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Posted: 1/25/2006 9:33:26 AM EDT
[#18]
Actually it's done a lot. We can now at least CCW in two spesific places. A gun in yer house, like the one a lot of us keep in a drawr by the bed was at one time considered "concealed" something you could get ticketed for, granted the chances of that happening were low but still it was legaly before the hamdan decision considered concealed. Thats just a couple small ones. I'm sure FMD or T-J could break it down even better. Hamdan was the foot in the door that we needed. |
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Posted: 1/25/2006 10:43:36 AM EDT
[#19]
tag
I like this state less and less each day...
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Posted: 1/25/2006 10:49:59 AM EDT
[#20]
+1,000,000 It's too bad that there aren't any good paying jobs in northern New Hampshire, or I would be back there in a heartbeat. |
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Posted: 1/25/2006 11:42:41 AM EDT
[#21]
I agree about this state. I keep having to think why I still live here.
A farmer once put up a billboard right outside of West Bend that said: "Welcome to Wisconsin, a Taxpayers Hell!" Beside that, this whole partisanship crap turns my stomach. Makes me wonder if people even know right from wrong anymore. Hard to believe that this contry is at war. Anybody even know the Gov. is over touring in Iraq? Oh, I guess I'm footing the bill for that also. |
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Posted: 1/25/2006 11:53:22 AM EDT
[#22]
Tell me about it! If you haven't read my tax problem, look at this post in the SF. If I wasn't loyal to my family's business, which is in WI, I would be out of here in a heartbeat! |
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Posted: 1/25/2006 2:23:45 PM EDT
[#23]
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Posted: 1/25/2006 2:27:24 PM EDT
[#24]
The Steinbrink rumor appears to be disinformation. Dick Baker posted this on thehighroad;
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Posted: 1/25/2006 4:18:11 PM EDT
[#25]
 how the hell did I miss that!
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Posted: 1/25/2006 4:36:02 PM EDT
[#26]
how about a bama resident permit 
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Posted: 1/26/2006 7:58:53 AM EDT
[#27]
Should be just fine for ya as long as yer still a bama resident. If you've since reclaimed WI residency then no. |
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Posted: 1/26/2006 8:40:35 AM EDT
[#28]
ol' fred was an idealist, but not an idiot. You're not going to get your freedoms back in one fell swoop without a revolution. You have to get them back the same way they were taken: One step at a time. And citing hamden implies some sort of ability to challenge this at the state supreme court level. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the makeup of the supreme court has altered dramatically since hamden. It's gone form 5-4 conservative to 4-5 against - maybe worse. Sykes is gone to the federal bench, replaced by 'loophole' louis butler. Plus one of the conservative judges has 'gone native' and started supported doyle and the trial lawyers. So if you're going to roll the dice on getting a favorable supreme court decision on your case, you're likely going to be SOL. Get what you can now and work towards getting a better bill later. That includes getting walker elected over doyle in november. Then it can be cleaned up rather quickly. |
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Posted: 1/26/2006 8:56:50 AM EDT
[#29]
This just in Senate voted to override the veto, no real suprise here.
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Posted: 1/26/2006 9:05:12 AM EDT
[#30]
still have bad vibes on the house 
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Posted: 1/26/2006 9:11:46 AM EDT
[#31]
Never had good vibes about it myself. |
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Posted: 1/26/2006 3:18:53 PM EDT
[#32]
Suffice it to say that I believe "one step at a time" doesn't work very well, or very quickly. Sadly, I have more faith in a lib WISC than the (R)-controlled Senate and Assembly. Fred was an idealist, but he knew what controls the actions of men and Governments. We have that restraint in Art. 1, Sec. 25 of the WI Constitution. Even Abrahamson can't deny it. In fact, the court affirmed it in Hamdan and told the Legislature to act. Unintended consequenses can be a bitch. |
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Posted: 1/26/2006 4:17:39 PM EDT
[#33]
Really ? Damm! So my FL permit is still useless in WI? What did they write it that way . . . |
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Posted: 1/26/2006 7:31:30 PM EDT
[#34]
I know, we've had this discussion. But I don't see WISC overturning anything. Everybody is excited about Hamdan. But Cole isn't remembered for some reason--because it was not in our favor? It said the prohibition on CCW is constitutional. With the increasingly liberal court, I don't see them overturning 941.23. 
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Posted: 1/27/2006 5:25:55 AM EDT
[#35]
I don't see it either, which is why I've been beating the live horse for open carry. If 941.23 stands, and Disorderly Conduct charges result from open carry, then the court would have a decision to make: Open carry for all non-prohibited persons (including loaded in vehicles), or completely remove Art 1, Sec 25 from the WI Constitution. No jurist (including Abrahamson) would (or could) do the latter. Like I said: Unintended consequences can be a bitch. I would speculate that even the legislative libtards in Madison would jump at the chance to hide those awful, evil, guns from the public's sensitive eyes with a good CCW law as opposed to what we're looking at in the current version of the PPA. If I'm wrong, we'd still have legal open carry ala Virginia, which is a hell of a lot better than what we've got right now. The only flaw in my argument is that it requires A) a lawyer, and B) a trip to the WISC. Both would seem to be a lot easier to get than a veto override.  Glenn, as far as Cole is concerned; 1) He had a crappy public defender making the Oral (I was there, and any one of the HS students on their field trip who were there could have done a hell of a better job). 2) He plead "guilty" first; Cole had more to do with a decision to vacate the plea post-conviction than it did CCW (not the legal argument the PD made, just MHO). 3) This guy definitely missed on the "for all lawful purposes" part, as he was caught committing a crime concurrent with CCW. That alone screwed his argument from the beginning, and stands in stark contrast to Hamdan. It’s not hard to see why the court ruled one way in Cole, and went in a different direction with Hamdan. Bottom line: Cole was far from a "good" test case for Article 1 Sec 25 (which is why I suspect that it got to the court at the same time as Hamdan). I don't look at Cole through rose-colored glasses, I take it for what it is: A poor and desperate attempt of a criminal to reduce his jail-time through the use of the system, with the resulting decision having a marginal (at best) bearing on lawful CCW resulting from Art1 Sec 25. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 5:32:57 AM EDT
[#36]
Hey I remember Cole, amnd if it wasn't for the inconsistancy betweeen the cole decision and the hamdan decision there would have been no request fotr clarification from the apeals court in the Fisher case. Frankly I think had Cole not been found in possession of weed that the decision would have went another route. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 5:38:46 AM EDT
[#37]
FMD, we don't have open carry there is just no law against it, so they use the DC statute to get anyone that may want to open carry. I've heard it from Milwaukee and Madison cops, Dep policy is to arrest for ANY open carry. The court didn't even bother to look at the state of open carry in Wisconsin when they wrote the hamdan decision, if they had they would have had no choice but to recognise that in some areas of the state open carry is not a resonable alternative means to concealed carry and that CCW IS the only means to carry for your as they liked to sayt 'security and defense. I think fisher's lawyer and the NRA are going to fuck up his case and not argue the points that need to be argued. They will keep it related to carry concealed for business related shit when they shouldn't be abole to because while thats why he carried concealed, when he was busted he wasn't "working".
It's gunna be ugly for the next year or so around here. As for me well I know what I'm doing. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 6:40:29 AM EDT
[#38]
re: Cole,
Guys, in theory the drug charge was unrelated to the CCW conviction, and the CCW statute was analyzed only against the state constitution. Although Cole as a person was a POS, that's independent of the WSC finding 941.23 constitutional. Anyway, here's hoping on the veto override. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 8:03:32 AM EDT
[#39]
And you still have a less favorable court than you had when hamden and cole were decided. At least one, maybe two votes against you now. Let me know how that works out for you. I love the pie in the sky arguments. Lots of idealism and flowery words, but no actual works to get it done. Just pissing in the cheerios of the people who are doing what they have to in order to get what they can now. No offense, but either start doing something to achieve what you claim you can do, or stop telling everyone else how they're wrong. You and people like that WI gun owners group aren't accomplishing jacks squat - just making claims unbacked by action. Like Nike said, just do it. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 11:10:41 AM EDT
[#40]
Bastiat:
Are you even a WI Resident? This is all of the 2nd HTF thread you've poted in the the last 3 months. Go back to GD, and let the adults talk. I have no need to feed the trolls. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 1:37:14 PM EDT
[#41]
+1 :) |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 1:47:45 PM EDT
[#42]
I spoke to Jim Fendry in person a few minutes ago. The Assembly override attempt is scheduled for Tuesday although due to potential last minute antics it may roll to Wednesday.
He said currently we have JUST enough votes to pass the bill. We cannot afford ANY defections. He also mentioned they hoped to get the bill "fixed" when the new govenor is elected. Personally, I am not counting on The Great Gas Bag being ousted. Keep the calls coming. Jeff |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 3:34:28 PM EDT
[#43]
It Ain't gonna happen we ain't gonna get sorry about the negative waves but you all know we are gonna be F-CKED and not KISSED again |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 6:08:46 PM EDT
[#44]
FMD: I've volunteered - twice, I think, maybe more back when I had the time - to man the WI concealed carry table at gun shows. I created a special flash version of my "better off dead" flash piece for wisconsin concealed carry that's on the resources page of their web site: www.flashbunny.org/betteroffdead-wicc.html Volunteered for Scott mccallum in the 2002 election so we could have a governor that would sign a concealed carry bill. Feel free to list what you've done to actually get concealed carry in wisconsin. It's sad to see, but typical, that you have some sort of chip on your shoulder. The minute I started to talk about YOU taking action towards how YOU think it should be done, you don't even bother to respond and then resort to some lame attacks against me. I've been working towards concealed carry in wisconsin years before you even joined this board. So let me know what you've done, or what you're actually going to do to get concealed carry in wisconsin - without the snide comments. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 6:25:16 PM EDT
[#45]
I am so glad I am in Indiana.
I just wish that we could get rid of the socialist bastards in office. . . Oh, and tag. . . |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 6:43:24 PM EDT
[#46]
Dammit, I'm feeding again.
 Bas, send me an IM if you want a resume. I'll even list the chip on my shoulder. You want my thoughts on how things should change? I'll send you my phone #. |
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Posted: 1/27/2006 7:14:53 PM EDT
[#47]
Don't worry. saw and copied down your little diatribe before you erased it. Suffice it to say the 'chip on shoulder' comment seems apt. I dare question your still-theoretical approach, and you attack me and tell me to go back to GD. Yeah, that's the kind of quality people I want to meet up with at a 'hometown' shoot. and this little gem: Bastiat, turn in your screen name. You don't deserve it. Don't even begin to imagine for one second you have standing to tell me that. Good luck on your 'test case' with sykes replaced by butler and another conservative justice gone over to the doyle/ trial lawyer side. IM me if it ever gets past the theoretical stage. |
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Posted: 1/28/2006 5:29:13 AM EDT
[#48]
I hate to fuel things. But I have to here.
I've met and discussed things with FMD. While I don't agree with his position, I do respect it and understand that he's put a lot of time and effort into this cause. I agree with Bastiat's position here. But I dislike the way he takes disscusions and turns them into arguments. I've seen him do this in many other threads in Arfcom. It only takes away from his positions and turns good threads bad. It's really a shame. I know it's hard to disagree but remain civil and respectful, but we try to keep it that way here in the WI HTF. And 'standing'?!? Sorry but I'll take the 'standing' of FMD over Bastiat any day. Sorry if this seems like a flame but I just plain don't like Bastiat's behavior on this board. I don't know how I would feel about him personally since I've never been able to meet him FTF. On topic: It's going to be close in the Assembly. I'll be calling Reps on Mon. I may try to get up to Madison Tues if I can get the time off. |
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Posted: 1/28/2006 9:48:50 AM EDT
[#49]
This discussion about 'what path to the goal' has been going on for along time,,,months,years. I think FMDs comments about your participation in the HTF might be because your jumping into the that discussion with comments that I construe as inflammatory. The HTF has a higher standard of conduct than the GD, blowing someones opinion off doesn't add to the discussion. Keep it civil, or keep it offline. TNX bulletatchR |
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