Posted: 10/25/2009 6:42:53 PM EDT
| today I was researching turning my pistol build into an AOW so i could use a vertical grip and it made me think of something. Is it possible to declare a O/U 12gauge, trimmed down to the "10 area and using a pistol grip an AOW if converted by someone holding the proper FFL? |
|
No, federal and washington state law dictate that once a receiver has a shoulder stock attached it can only be a weapon made from a rifle or made from a shotgun. Which means a SBR or SBS. But if it is manually reloaded (such as an O/U) and one barrel is rifled... maybe. AOW's can have a shoulder stock in that circumstance and in spite of what the law says some have been registered with 10" barrels. (e) Any other weapon The term “any other weapon” means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition. Think this....  |
|
So just to clarify, any shotgun that came from the factory with only a pistol grip and no stock can be turned into an AOW. But if it departed the factory with a stock it would be considered a SBS.
you start with 2 870's 1 pistol grip 1 with stock. Do the same surgery to them and you end up with identical weapons that are completely different legal wise. I am starting to think that we have some really fucked up laws. 
|
|
Quoted:
I am starting to think that we have some really fucked up laws. You are just now are figuring that out?  Think of the AWB with the pre/post ban guns and how stupid that was.
If you take into consideration the fact that a shotgun was under $20 in 1934 when they pased the NFA and they put a $200 manufacturing tax (and a $200 transfer tax) to chop the barrel to less then 18" it becomes apparent that we have some stupid laws. |
|
Quoted:
Yup, if you can find yourself a virgin O/U shotgun receiver then you could do it. Sadly, I'm not aware of anybody who makes virgin double barrel receivers. I'd think that somebody could make some good money selling bare receivers and making AOW's out of them. A guy used to import Italian receivers a short time back and made a number of these, but the market is only so big... Don't get me wrong, I'd buy one! 
|
|
Quoted:
So an AR pistol reciever cannot be made into an AOW? I've looked at the laws and seen this discussed before, but goddamn i'm still confused by this. I'd love to AOW my AR pistol build and put a vertical foregrip on it. A pistol receiver can be AOW'd. An AR rifle cannot be. The 12 gauge O/U shotgun in the OP cannot be. A virgin receiver for an OU could be. |
|
Quoted: Quoted: So an AR pistol reciever cannot be made into an AOW? I've looked at the laws and seen this discussed before, but goddamn i'm still confused by this. I'd love to AOW my AR pistol build and put a vertical foregrip on it. A pistol receiver can be AOW'd. An AR rifle cannot be. The 12 gauge O/U shotgun in the OP cannot be. A virgin receiver for an OU could be. OP's shotgun that he wants to make, should be able to be made into one, if he were to buy a new one with the condition that it have no stock on it at any point in time in its past. Granted contacting the manufacturer and seeign if they would ship one out like that is possible, not readliy likely that they would do it, but it might be advantagious to ask a few manufacturers. I have been thinking lately that a Saiga 12 sone up by tromix with the 8" barrel sounds fun, you just have to find a virgin reciever. They do exist, so it may be possible. It would present the same problem that the OP is having. As a side note, As much as I hate Lawyers, running this past one wopuld not be a bad idea. |
| A pistol can be made into an AOW. A rifle or shotgun can not. Once a rifle/shotgun, always a rifle/shotgun, with the only change being to a short barreled rifle/shotgun. Of course if you add that vertical pistol grip you have to pay the manufacturing tax of $200. The transfer fee is only $5 if you find someplace that is already selling them, but since that manufacturer had to pay that $200 tax, it's added to your purchase price. So you aren't saving anything by having your 07 SOT buddy make it for you. |
|
Quoted: but since that manufacturer had to pay that $200 tax, it's added to your purchase price. So you aren't saving anything by having your 07 SOT buddy make it for you. A SOT does not pay a tax for each weapon he makes, it's cover by the SOT (Special Occupational Taxpayer) part of it. Also we do have a Washington MFG/SOT in this board coctailer. A SOT does his engraving and a Form 2 if I remember right then ships it back to you after your Form 4 is approved. While he doesn't pay for the making cost, he does have to cover his SOT expenses and ITAR fees so that is added to the cost. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
but since that manufacturer had to pay that $200 tax, it's added to your purchase price. So you aren't saving anything by having your 07 SOT buddy make it for you. A SOT does not pay a tax for each weapon he makes, it's cover by the SOT (Special Occupational Taxpayer) part of it. Also we do have a Washington MFG/SOT in this board coctailer. A SOT does his engraving and a Form 2 if I remember right then ships it back to you after your Form 4 is approved. While he doesn't pay for the making cost, he does have to cover his SOT expenses and ITAR fees so that is added to the cost. So how does a rifled pistol justify with the following definition? Quoted:
(e) Any other weapon [div class='ptext-11']The term “any other weapon” means any weapon ordevice capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolverhaving a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire afixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only asingle discharge can be made from either barrel without manualreloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readilyrestored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolverhaving a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, orintended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixedammunition. I'm still confused as to how a regular pistol can be made into an AOW. I read the above as ONLY applying to shotguns (i.e. smooth bore). It seems to specifically rule out anything with a rifled bore. |
|
Quoted:
I read the above as ONLY applying to shotguns (i.e. smooth bore). It seems to specifically rule out anything with a rifled bore. The legal definition of "pistol" under the NFA says they only have one grip(perpendicular to the bore etc), regardless of all other physical attributes. So..............it aint a pistol as defined ( nor rifle/shotgun/machinegun /so and so forth), and it doesnt have a stock and it's concealable, leaving only one catagory ie Any Other Weapon. |
|
Quoted: So how does a rifled pistol justify with the following definition? I'm still confused as to how a regular pistol can be made into an AOW. I read the above as ONLY applying to shotguns (i.e. smooth bore). It seems to specifically rule out anything with a rifled bore. I was asking about that as well a while ago. This is somewhat unrelated but still good to know and I'll come back to it. I was objecting to smoothbore handguns being AOW's, the subject was Mythbusters MANY NFA violations they have aired. Read each line as a separate type of AOW and I added the red to this explanation I was given: The legal AOW definition "means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, is a AOW unless exempted by other definitions a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, is a AOW weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Is a AOW Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition." Survival rifles with combination barrels are designed to fire fixed ammunition (cartridges) and are held in the AOW definition instead of a SBR or SBS definition with this part The first sentence includes ALL concealable guns; but rifled-barrel handguns are then taken out of the definition in the last sentence, leaving in UN-rifled barrel handguns when a second grip is installed it is no longer "designed to be held and fired by one hand". So it no longer fits in the definition of a handgun, the Any Other Weapon definition as I quoted first is all encompassing for any firearm that doesn't meet another definition. I know utter BS but it's one of the laws our representatives have approved. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
but since that manufacturer had to pay that $200 tax, it's added to your purchase price. So you aren't saving anything by having your 07 SOT buddy make it for you. A SOT does not pay a tax for each weapon he makes, it's cover by the SOT (Special Occupational Taxpayer) part of it. Also we do have a Washington MFG/SOT in this board coctailer. A SOT does his engraving and a Form 2 if I remember right then ships it back to you after your Form 4 is approved. While he doesn't pay for the making cost, he does have to cover his SOT expenses and ITAR fees so that is added to the cost. My mistake, wasn't thinking clearly. I wasn't thinking when I typed that. There are a couple of 07 SOTS around the area. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
but since that manufacturer had to pay that $200 tax, it's added to your purchase price. So you aren't saving anything by having your 07 SOT buddy make it for you. A SOT does not pay a tax for each weapon he makes, it's cover by the SOT (Special Occupational Taxpayer) part of it. Also we do have a Washington MFG/SOT in this board coctailer. A SOT does his engraving and a Form 2 if I remember right then ships it back to you after your Form 4 is approved. While he doesn't pay for the making cost, he does have to cover his SOT expenses and ITAR fees so that is added to the cost. So how does a rifled pistol justify with the following definition? Quoted:
(e) Any other weapon [div class='ptext-11']The term “any other weapon” means any weapon ordevice capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolverhaving a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire afixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only asingle discharge can be made from either barrel without manualreloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readilyrestored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolverhaving a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, orintended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixedammunition. I'm still confused as to how a regular pistol can be made into an AOW. I read the above as ONLY applying to shotguns (i.e. smooth bore). It seems to specifically rule out anything with a rifled bore. IIRC it's because there's a definition of a handgun, a definition of a rifle, and a definition of a shotgun. Plus specifics for destructive devices. If it's not any of those, then it's an aow. http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/2005/p53004/18usc_chap44.pdf and http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/2005/p53004/27cfr_part479.pdf A pistol is specifically defined there as being designed to fire with one hand. If it's meant to use two hands, then it doesn't fit that very strict and narrow definition of a pistol. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
I am starting to think that we have some really fucked up laws. You are just now are figuring that out? Think of the AWB with the pre/post ban guns and how stupid that was.
If you take into consideration the fact that a shotgun was under $20 in 1934 when they pased the NFA and they put a $200 manufacturing tax (and a $200 transfer tax) to chop the barrel to less then 18" it becomes apparent that we have some stupid laws. Did I forget the sarcasm in my statement? Oops sorry. Added. |