Posted: 4/19/2008 6:13:31 PM EDT
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Normally I dont like to miss things like sleep for things I am not required to go to. Today was different. After an interesting 45 minutes of Dino's truck being a non snow moving PoS and trapping the entire newbie caravan on the last 200 yards to the pit we made it in safe and sound. PCR-00 did his usual mediocre job of supervising by pointing and laughing. After an extensive safety briefing we got down to the meat and potatos of the class. Shooting. We had a turnout of 10 trainees and they were all up to the task of learning with no NDs and Grumpy did'nt have to kill anyone. More fun than a barrel of naked jello wrestling monkeys was had by all and we learned quite a bit. I unfortunately had to leave early and missed some of the good stuff but I will definitely be in on the next one. I am happy to say I only screwed up twice and one of those times was right at the end.  Grumpy was gracious enough to only enlarge my asshole by a few millimeters rather than tearing me an entire new feces dispenser.Thanks a bunch Chris and I learned a whole lot. 
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All I'm going to say is that you really need to take the class. I'm sure glad I did. I think it is really important to get taught the correct ways to handle and shoot your weapons before you start blasting. Seems like any shooting you do without really knowing what to do, is practicing how to do it wrong. I can't thank GrumpyM4 enough for taking the time and effort to put this on.
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Im not trying to be a dick, but what are the specifics covered in the class? Im allways down to learn something new, but it sounds like stuff ive done to death in the Corps. |
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Since this is a basic training.. it's quite possible you have learned the stuff in the corp.. parts maybe you don't know are some of Grumpy's techniques that, I'm assuming, learned from experience & training. I thought it was a great class. Learned a lot, and was definitely worth braving the snow to attend. I'm grateful that he was willing to teach it again to us. In the end, I learned some techniques that have to be practice at home and at the range (don't think the Misses would like me to double tap in the house..) Other thing, I love my AR-15 with the EOTech. |
That sounds like a good deal. I can respect the value of this class. I was just wondering the specifics. Was it alot of speedy/tactical reloads? failure to stop drills. weapons malfunctions? It may not be for me, but Im betting a few out there may be more interested in attending the next class if they hear about what went on. Edit: I must have failed out of spelling "clas" |
First off, you're not being a dick by being curious about the course material. You have valid questions. I started with crawl, walk run, although we never got to run, and we were at more of a "hobble" cross between crawl and walk. I started out with the most basic things such as trigger control, breathing, sight alignment, sight picture, followthrough, recovery, etc, etc, etc. We went on to sling/carry positions, shooting platforms, target areas and why they are shot for and under what circumstances you would need to change your shot location. We did ball and dummy drills with the pistols first to get people an idea of how they might be negativly reacting while shooting, and then we went on to slow aimed fire to work on basics and make sure that people were on paper. Offered advice on how to tighten groups, etc. We then went to learning about controlled pairs, double taps, and failure drills. After that was mag changes, combat and tactical, then to transitions. We finished up transitions with a meltdown drill and finished the class with a simple three position shoot drill. As much as I tried to make it a basic "how to use your gear" type class, I kept accidentally throwing in things like maintaining situational awareness, pulling your shots and then going to low ready and scanning for threats, etc. Things I normally would reserve for alittle more advanced classes. But they all took it in stride and did great with it. One thing I forgot to do was the mad minute BEFORE the class to get it out of peoples systems, but that will be remembered next time. With your training, you'd probably be bored as shit in a class like this, and if you were to show, i'd piss you off even further by making you an assistant RO anyways because I like the RO/TA's to have experience under their belt like what you have. I.E. people who aren't afraid to point out what they see and be blunt about things. As with any class, there will be variances in what is taught based on each instructors individual experiences and feelings about things, so even some basic ideals will be slightly different from class to class. For my part, I wish I had been alittle better prepared, but part of that was also cause by trying to do part of the teaching points right next to a very active fireing line with FA gear being used.....my bad.....  Chalk it up to a learning experiance on my part. One thing that worked out great though was the dual fireing lines. Nobody that I know of complained about the main line moving up a few feet, and we had two active lines going that allowed one line to shut down and set targets while the other was still active and visa versa. It was very safe and worked even better then I thought it would. Anyways, in closing, I believe that you "may" have picked upa a few different pointers, but nothing that would be too terribly different then what you already know. And you don't have to apologise for asking questions, nor do you have to justify your curiosity. I'm always more then willing to answer questions.
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Good post! Thats what I was looking for. That kind of stuff is good training. Like our SOTG instructors used to allways say, "being high-speed is doing the simple shit under pressure" |
Amatures train until they get it right, professionals train until they can't get it wrong....
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I am at the time to sleep point right now. so that puts me at 44 hours. not my longest and I would do it again right now for the opportunity. |
No sweat! The interwebs is a hard place to ask questions. Sometimes your tone is the difference between sounding like pompous jerk, or a genuinely curious poster. If I ever make it to an LCR, I may sit in on a class. |
I would bet that with your experiance you have many things you could teach most of us. |
I'll be the first to admit that I come from the andy stafford style liniage insofar as shooting. I grew up with a "gun guy" dad who was an LEO and believed in teaching his sons at an early age. As an adult I started getting into competition, and then began seeking out training beyond what I already knew. I have trained with Several former Mil and LEO including Tweak (former MIL) , and another gentleman who is on this board on occasion, who is former Army SF, and also my Fugitive recovery mentor, Dan Davis (former MIL and LEO). I also qualified with Georges Rahbani (grew up in Lebanon during all the unpleasantness. He has more combat experience under his belt then anybody else I know). In 1999 I started work in bail bonds and recovery and I attended a police academy in 2001 and graduated with high honors and pased the Washington state police firearms qualification course. In 2002 I became more heavily involved in three gun type competition, and attended a weekly shoot more often then not, and was always either at the top of the scoring list or within the top three. In 2003 I shot my first USPSA sanctioned three gun match and took top shooter and overall winner. I was running all stock equipment and still outshot the shooters with all the little go-fast dohickeys, mulitiple scopes on their rifles, etc. etc. On the weapons side, I have been building AR's, and some 1911's since 1996, with much of that being helped along by Tweak, who was also the former mod of the troubleshooting forum on this board. So, make of it what you will. Dan, Georges, Tweak, and my former SF bud have all seen the elephant and are very happy to "share the knowledge" and I have been more then happy to take them up on it. I've done my share of fugitive recovery work and was successfull enough doing it. I have also outshot every police officer I have ever competed against in all aspects including time, accuracy, use of cover, tactics, etc. I will be the first to admit that what I teach isn't "high-speed" by any stretch of the imagination. I try to instill basic skills, weapons manipulations, and basic tactics that are the foundation blocks of being a good shooter and maintaining your situational awareness and weapon in times of crisis. Am I teaching center/right/left/australian peels, contact drills and the like? No. Not yet at least. Since nobody else has offered to do it, I figured it couldn't hurt to offer and follow through on it. Is what I teach right for everybody? Probably not. As I said, folks like MackUSMC would be bored out of his mind because he's already gone through this stuff before in the military, but for most civvies, this is a great start. The LCR class was compared to getting training wheels on your first bike. That was a very apt description. And that's exactly what the class was intended to be. Especially since it took less then a full day to do, and honestly, to do more then a basic introduction (which is really what we did) I would need much more then 7 hours of their time. |
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Grumpy, YOU honestly rock out loud! On top of your generosity, you know how to teach, and you know what you're teaching. It was my pleasure to listen in and watch the portion I witnessed. As I watched you guys, it made me think about how differently many of us view and use firearms. Here my entire lifetime, I've been using firearms solely on my own terms.... in effect, meaning I've always chose the moment and I pick the place, for the most part. (hunting, competition, practice, etc.) Seldom have I considered the combat or 'emergency' aspects of firearms and shooting. Much of the material I heard could be cross-applied to hunting or even recreational shooting situations in many ways, like knowing your weapon and getting it in to position as a reflex rather than as an operation, (much game can be lost within a fraction of a second, and not being proficient with your gun can make all the difference between a successful hunt or going home empty handed. In my opinion, there are very few hunters who've invested the time and effort to really know what they are doing with their guns out in the field.) But as you explained things like keeping your body angled so an incoming bullet would have to penetrate more flesh to reach the heart, (and many other items you taught), it occurred to me how little I've thought about this type of thing, and how vast the differences in viewpoints on firearms can be, to each individual. It was somewhat humbling in a way. I've thought to myself before as I watched some of the shooters at LCRs, that they'd need to learn a quite few things before I'd turn them loose to hunt on their own, or before they'd be able to compete with any success. But yesterday, I realized that if the shit did ever hit the fan and tactical skills would become of use to me, I could very well be up against someone (or many) who are a thousand times more skilled than I have the slightest notion of. Hell, I almost starting laughing out loud when I realized how little I know about AR rifles, as you explained some of the 'whys' that you passed off as being 'basic knowledge'.  I guess I've earned my 'fudd' title with this post.... but all the same, I never mind learning something new.  Even though I didn't participate in your class Grumpy, I sure respect the effort and time you put in to everything you did for those guys who did jump in. Very, very fuckin' cool! 
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Aside from being my first LCR, this was my first firearms class and I sure learned a lot about shooting, and about my own weaknesses. Aside from being an informative and fun class, I think it was a great way to spend the day at LCR. I could only imagine myself at LCR without the training class: -Show up at 10AM -Blow through half my ammo in 30 minutes. -Chat with some folks for 10 minutes -Blow through the other half of my ammo in 30 minutes -Chat with some folks, go home. Still think I am a badass shooter, when in all reality I suck and will not do anything to try and change that. By having a class with a course to go through, the guidance and training provided made my "stuff learned per round fired" ratio very, very high. I must have gone through only 250 or so rifle rounds, but it felt more like 2000! Thanks Grumpy for putting in the time and effort to put this together, and thanks to Aloxi, JoshAR, and Enumclaw77 for being superstars and providing the material support to make the class as outstanding as it was.  Loading mags without a tent or table would have REALLY sucked! I am very glad to have made your acquaintance, and hope you all do well in the coming zombie apocalypse,  . Also, it was good meeting you Ryo and OptionX3. I'm sorry that I under guessed your age by a decade, hehe.Also, good job to the rest of the LCR crew for making a massive bon fire which kept us alive in the dark and snowy sections of the day, lol. PS: I ended up only wearing one HDPE plate in the carrier along with 8 mags, but my shoulders and legs are a bit stiff today. I guess I need to hit the gym more often so I can go from BadassWeakling, to Badassweakling. |
This is one thing I forgot to make a hearty thank you to Enumclaw87 and his father for. The tent cover and table were FANTASTIC, and could not have been more appreciated. Enumclaw87 and his father really put themselves out there for this class with support from the tent and table to the grill and burgers. It's things like these that boost moral and make a training day perfect. |
Definitely thankful for the tent, table, and food. That was way above and beyond. Hope to see you guys at the next LCR. As for all the other guys.. it was great meeting you. Wish there was more time to chat and socialize, but as we all know, time flies by when you're having fun. |
I was thinking about sitting in on the class, too. But I didn't make it for several reasons. I may be well versed in my craft, but no education you ever get will hurt you, and I may have learned something new. |
You're always welcome to observe or join in. I doubt there's much I can add to what you already know, but rounds downrange with a purpose is always a good thing. |