Quoted: Government is always evil but a necessary evil, the only way to keep goverment from destroying all life on earth is to keep it small. Gov has a insatiable lust for power, it pretends to be benevolent but it's real power comes from the people fearing it, so the gov likes to instill fear by hirering  sadistic criminals called feds known for their lack of comscience and love of cruelty. exhibit A Trophy photos of their victims i10.photobucket.com/albums/a103/thedoctors308/trophyshot3.jpg i10.photobucket.com/albums/a103/thedoctors308/trophyshot2.jpg i10.photobucket.com/albums/a103/thedoctors308/trophyshot.jpg i10.photobucket.com/albums/a103/thedoctors308/guyontank1.jpg

And that proves what?  That the feds know how to use a camera?  Without a full explanation of what I see and proof that these are original photos that have not been PhotoShopped, these really could be photos of many different things.

I find it hard to want to run and hide in a bunker because of 4 photos that could have come from anywhere, been made to look like anything.  I don't have that kind of paranoia.

Here is a photo that could mean anything:

Quoted: Hey, this thread's getting interesting!  Ok, Matt45, good point: Both Ruby Ridge and Waco are several years old.(Guess that makes them ok now, but I digress.) As has been pointed out, errors on both sides contributed to murders unfortunate events.  Can we agree that the level of force used by the feds/.gov was excessive? And that little has changed since then to prevent future similar excesses? I'd really like to see this discussion continue, on an intelligent basis.   1911fan

No, we can't agree.
Since then there have been measures taken in Law Enforcement training to prevent the excessive application of deadly force.

My point that the earliest of each of those incidents is, what? 10 years now, the latter 13? Two situations where better planning could have avoided carnage, within three years and then nothing remotely simular for 13?

It's not a coincidence. It's the result of two incidents opening the eyes of how LE trains and operates.

Quoted: ATFE agents  did not serve Randy with a THE warrant, they were trespassing when the weaver family dog started barking at them, Sam went to see what the dog was barking at the ATFE agents shot the dog and in the direction of Sam, Sam turned around to run away and the bastards shot the child in the back, the agent shot was hit with a bullet by a fellow team mate, thats what started ruby ridge, Randy was only  alledged of failure to appear not reason enough to murder Vicki and Sam.Nice job Strat. Talked yourself in a circle and proved my point. The agents were there on surviellance, trying to figure out how to best serve a warrant, they weren't trespassing. Randy FTA'd, there was a warrant for his arrest, and Hell!, even inTaylor Vs. Taintor it says the Sherriff or other appropriate LE agency has the right to serve the warrant. Bottom line, if your hero had come down off that mountian, and gave himself up, he wouldn't have put all those "innocents" in harms way. There is no statute of limitations on murder, it does not matter how long ago the murder of 81 people is, poor planning is no excuse for murder of innocents, by that logic there would not be a single person convicted of a crime ! Again your demonization and convicting David Koresh without due process of law and then support of the murder of 81 people shows you can not discern right from wrong. See my above to R-32 regarding Koresh.

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Americans of japanese decent that were combat veterans of world war two were not allowed to see their families in the concentration camps while on leave.

You may think tyranny can never happen in America, you may believe gov thugs will never murder your wife and children and burn your house down, arrest and torture your relatives but you would be wrong, as the gov already has done all those things and continue to carry out atrocities every day.

So the gov has not come to your door today, and maybe not next week either, but it will in time as every superstate has always done through-out history.

David koresh might have been a monster but you still do not punish infants with 51 days of torture, poison gas, noise, lights, sniper fire, then burn, bomb and machine gun them to death and take trophy photos of the thugs standing along side the tiny innocent vicitms.




So every superstate in history has done it, so whats your solution? and when did CS become poison gas???  The Waco cult wanted a war, innocents die in all wars, a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Quoted: Nice job Strat. Talked yourself in a circle and proved my point. The agents were there on surviellance, trying to figure out how to best serve a warrant, they weren't trespassing. Randy FTA'd, there was a warrant for his arrest, and Hell!, even inTaylor Vs. Taintor it says the Sherriff or other appropriate LE agency has the right to serve the warrant. Bottom line, if your hero had come down off that mountian, and gave himself up, he wouldn't have put all those "innocents" in harms way. See my above to R-32 regarding Koresh.

They were trespassing and they fired first. Buncha amature cowboys. Once they started firing, it was an armed assault.

Bunny- You forgot to yell Wolverines!!!!!!! or ANARCHY!!

Or whatever is is that you Militia types yell at the end of of a losing diatribe.

So how are the Feds/police trespassing if they have a warrant for your arrest???

Quoted: David koresh might have been a monster but you still do not punish infants with 51 days of torture, poison gas, noise, lights, sniper fire, then burn, bomb and machine gun them to death and take trophy photos of the thugs standing along side the tiny innocent vicitms.

Sorry, I missed this earlier-
This is one place where you and I agree 100% Strat. Koresh really should have let those children out before the end of the 1st day. I just wonder if it was what they would say to the authorities that kept them inside, being tortured by their parents in that living hell their folks created for them.

Quoted: So how are the Feds/police trespassing if they have a warrant for your arrest???

Oh, Mister Bunny!!!!!!!!
Remember any insipid 90's rap songs?
I do.
Whoop there it is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quoted: So how are the Feds/police trespassing if they have a warrant for your arrest???

The feds did not have a valid warrant, crimes are state jurisdiction (FTA) all the feds are is tax collectors, leathal federal force for not paying a tax is the real crime.

Quoted: Quoted: So how are the Feds/police trespassing if they have a warrant for your arrest??? The feds did not have a valid warrant, crimes are state jurisdiction (FTA) all the feds are is tax collectors, leathal federal force for not paying a tax is the real crime.

OK, here is one place where we should all easily agree:  The validity of a warrant should never have to be fought from the barrel of a gun.

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Quoted:
So how are the Feds/police trespassing if they have a warrant for your arrest???
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The feds did not have a valid warrant, crimes are state jurisdiction (FTA) all the feds are is tax collectors, leathal federal force for not paying a tax is the real crime.


FYI an SBS is a Federal crime(ATFs ballcourt)so how is the warrant not valid again???

Quoted: FYI an SBS is a Federal crime(ATFs ballcourt)so how is the warrant not valid again???

They sent him different dates for the appearance so there was no way Randy could appear on time, this is an old trick I have seen them use many times and since the wrong date or addressed is used to contact the accused the person goes un-notified until some traffic stop brings up the warrant and surprises the person.

After Randy saw they had no intention of giving him a fair hearing it was only logical not to trust the criminal's justus system.

Quoted: Quoted: So how are the Feds/police trespassing if they have a warrant for your arrest??? The feds did not have a valid warrant, crimes are state jurisdiction (FTA) all the feds are is tax collectors, leathal federal force for not paying a tax is the real crime."Confused Rhetoric, slanted rhetoric, blah, blah, blah....Anarchy!!!!

Thank God I'm here to translate.

Strat- that's not even an argument, it's more like pathetic whining.
Go regroup and reorganize, ask some of your "associates" for new ideas to throw the conversation off track.

They sent him different dates for the appearance so there was no way Randy could appear on time, this is an old trick I have seen them use many times and since the wrong date or addressed is used to contact the accused the person goes un-notified until some traffic stop brings up the warrant and surprises the person. After Randy saw they had no intention of giving him a fair hearing it was only logical not to trust the criminal's justus system.

Sure they did Strat. It was all part of a massive conspiracy.


Back it up, with verifiable fact.



ETA- Let the long, slow spiral begin!

Just a few facts...

The feds pressured Randy to be a snitch on the AN, when he refused the feds absolutely positively set out to take Randy down any way they could, paying the dirty biker to entrap with the under legal length ploy, something that was never proven that Randy did.

They spent thousands and then millions over an alledged untaxed AOW, that about as conspiratorial as it gets.

Quoted: Just a few facts...

Outstanding read...

Thanks for the link.

Good Lord some people got the tinfoil on just alittle to tight.

Quoted: Good Lord some people got the tinfoil on just alittle to tight.

Kool-Aid clouding your mind?

Quoted: Good Lord some people got the tinfoil on just alittle to tight.

Is your K-pot lined with tin-foil?  It also helps to have a layer of tin-foil between the cover and the helmet as well.  Can't be too safe!


On another note, the Country Captain's Chicken MRE is NOT to be used as a personal lubricant.

Quoted: Sure they did Strat. It was all part of a massive conspiracy. Back it up, with verifiable fact. ETA- Let the long, slow spiral begin!

You're not winning, Matt45. You haven't even put a scratch in Strat's camouflage.

If you can support the legality of the ATF's and FBI's methods after Ruby Ridge and Waco, you're a "big scary government, put the people in their place" kind of guy. First you want to set them up, then you want to take them down? Very predatory.

Quoted: Good Lord some people got the tinfoil on just alittle to tight.

M.I.T. did quite a study on tin foil hats, they found that they work as an antenna and make the RF worse.

As far as Feds go you would have to spend a few years in my boots to see and understand what it is like to have constant ambushes, seeing associates set up and taken down and given three time the maximum sentence with no parole, one friend www.savvysurvivor.com/ had 50 agents working two and a half years on the set up before they got him, they attempted his murder but by the grace of God witnesses prevented the fedcoats from murdering him.

The feds don't worry about their worshipful slaves much the Feds spend their time attacking the only opposition that exists to the tyranny, the militia !

the only opposition that exists to the tyranny, the militia !


LOL, Fatazz, out of shape, and no training to speak of are the only opposition. Damn you guys are bad off. Hope that Mosin does ya some good against a M2IFV.

As far as Feds go you would have to spend a few years in my boots to see and understand what it is like to have constant ambushes, seeing associates set up and taken down and given three time the maximum sentence with no parole, one friend www.savvysurvivor.com/ had 50 agents working two and a half years on the set up before they got him, they attempted his murder but by the grace of God witnesses prevented the fedcoats from murdering him.

Perhaps its simply the people you hang out with? Crackheads hang-out with crackheads, Nazis w/ Nazis etc. If you bring attention onto you, when you are commiting illegal acts, well your rather stupid.

Excellent

Quoted: LOL, Fatazz, out of shape, and no training to speak of are the only opposition. Damn you guys are bad off. Hope that Mosin does ya some good against a M2IFV.

WOW!...That is a very bold assumption on your part...You lead troops right?

Im betting you know about as much as I do about the unorgonized militia types, and I just would never make a bold statement like that.

Unbelievable. Strat and all the locals I hang out with are the most deliberately law-abiding people I have ever met. They actually research the legality of everything they do.

These people drive legally, pay their taxes, attend church, pain-stakingly observe even the most absurd federal, state and local laws.

In the course of their research, they found out that the government, itself, doesn't pay much attention to their own stupid laws.

My friends are revolted by government social workers who encourage underage teenage girls to get pregnant for the money and then abort the child and do it all over again. They take umbrage at authorities who demand more money and control and then use it to furthur restrict our access to public land and services.

We can't dig a ditch, plow a field, repair our homes, build a fence, cut down a tree, pick up a rock, bury a dead animal, shoot our rifles, put up an antenna or cut a trail without breaking a regulation or law. Who needs such useless minions interfering in their life?

And now we have some people who can't wait to hunt us down and kill us for even speaking about our anger and frustration.

Do you really think some militia nutjob is going to throw himself at an M2IFV when the driver's family is sitting at home, unprotected? This isn't a foreign country.

Do you really think some militia nutjob is going to throw himself at an M2IFV when the driver's family is sitting at home, unprotected? This isn't a foreign country.

So you God fearing, law-abiding, lovers of the Constitution, avocate, attacking women and children of service members? Huh, perhaps you need to re-evaluate your position now. FYI, my family isnt un-protected, they have more than enough means and training to defend themselves from militia/criminal types.

And yes, I lead troops. To broad a paint brush on the Fatazz, unfit comment perhaps, can the majority of your terrorist cell ruck march 12 miles in 3 hours or less with full pack?

Quoted: Do I have to pick a side?

Come to the middle ground.

We have bullets, booze, and broads, ladies here with us in sane-ville.

^^^ Phil, did you get my IM?

Quoted: So you God fearing, law-abiding, lovers of the Constitution, avocate, attacking women and children of service members? Huh, perhaps you need to re-evaluate your position now.The only people with a history of attacking non-combatants is police and military, even though the british engaged in torture, dismemberment among other atrocities and still the partisons did not respond in kind.However this is not 1776 and there are no rules in war, you of all people should realize that ! FYI, my family isnt un-protected, they have more than enough means and training to defend themselves from militia/criminal types. And yes, I lead troops. To broad a paint brush on the Fatazz, unfit comment perhaps, can the majority of your terrorist cell ruck march 12 miles in 3 hours or less with full pack?  There is a few high speed types in the militia but the majority border on minor disability but when it comes to fire and manuver we fight smart with home field advantage, not carrying 200 to 300 lbs of third line gear.

Not much worse than civil war and why education is so important, brother fought against brother on opposite sides of the civil war, I would hope we learn those mistakes and not repeat them.

So the milita didnt commit crimes against civilians during the Revolution ie Loyalists???? Same as in the Civil War?? BS.


Haji has home field advantage and he gets his ass handed to him daily. haji has access to RPGs, MGs, Mortars, Rockets and lots of other munitions, you Dont. The best US militia types could field is maybe a couple .50cals, useless against IFVs. A 25mm bushmaster and a TOW has alot more range than a .50.

Arm-chair warriors are amusing. Have you actually fought in a war? Learning to fight from reading ie  The survivalist, doomsday warrior, turner diaries, doesnt prepare you for war.

Quoted: You're not winning, Matt45. You haven't even put a scratch in Strat's camouflage. Camouflage? more like smoke and mirrors. If you can support the legality of the ATF's and FBI's methods after Ruby Ridge and Waco, you're a "big scary government, put the people in their place" kind of guy. First you want to set them up, then you want to take them down? Very predatory.

Reading comprehension is a big deal when posting and replying to posts on the internet. What I do support is law and order. What I don't support is any organization that uses criminals and wacko's as their rallying points. Read this closely- Waco was a diasaster and a tragedy, Ruby Ridge was a collossal fuckup of the first order. From what little FACTS that are availible, BOTH parties were at fault. If predatory is expecting that criminals are arrested and get their day in court, be able to exercise the rights set forth by the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th 8th Amends., then yes, I am predatory.

Quoted: Unbelievable.Strat and all the locals I hang out with are the most deliberately law-abiding people I have ever met. They actually research the legality of everything they do. Then do their damndest to figure out a way around it, or just do it, knowing the penalty. These people drive legally, pay their taxes, attend church, pain-stakingly observe even the most absurd federal, state and local laws.Right up until the point where they expouse their views, some of which are dangerously seditious and borderline treasonous. In some cases the views they're pontificating make them appear to be just another fucking terrorist in waiting. It's opinion, but we are no where near bearing arms against the nation for which I swore to bear truth faith and alligence. In the course of their research, they found out that the government, itself, doesn't pay much attention to their own stupid laws.Good point, the ATF has some of the most draconian rules and regs ever written. That's still no reason to begin planning the "New Martyrs'Revolution" My friends are revolted by government social workers who encourage underage teenage girls to get pregnant for the money and then abort the child and do it all over again. They take umbrage at authorities who demand more money and control and then use it to furthur restrict our access to public land and services.I am revolted as well. Why aren't these social worklers being exposed by name & organization? We can't dig a ditch, plow a field, repair our homes, build a fence, cut down a tree, pick up a rock, bury a dead animal, shoot our rifles, put up an antenna or cut a trail without breaking a regulation or law. Who needs such useless minions interfering in their life?BS, in fact, show me in each case where there is a law saying you cannot.I contend that (you're) carrying this to far, even for a mental exercise. And now we have some people who can't wait to hunt us down and kill us for even speaking about our anger and frustration. Whom are you speaking of? Do you really think some militia nutjob is going to throw himself at an M2IFV when the driver's family is sitting at home, unprotected? This isn't a foreign country.Is that a threat. Please clarify your statement.

LOL, Fatazz, out of shape, and no training to speak of are the only opposition. Damn you guys are bad off. Hope that Mosin does ya some good against a M2IFV.

This is where you advocated using armor against American citizens. (aka my friends)

can the majority of your terrorist cell ruck march 12 miles in 3 hours or less with full pack?

This is where you called us terrorists.

Do you really think some militia nutjob is going to throw himself at an M2IFV when the driver's family is sitting at home, unprotected? This isn't a foreign country.

This is where I remind you that you are vulnerable too. You won't be sleeping any deeper than I will, knowing what you have in your heart. If you get your way, we'll be fighting for our lives and our homes. We all know what kind of damage your forces will do to unarmed civilians, women and children in your path. We've seen it in Waco, Ruby Ridge, Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq.

I predict that people will no more cower before your ruthless power than you will respect the will of the people.

Of course, I would never advocate attacking defensless civilians, women and children, but I've been in combat and I know how it's done. I'm not looking for a war, but I can smell one coming. If I never have another exciting day, great, I've already had too many. So far, I've won all my battles, if I hadn't I'd be dead. They didn't take Cobra pilots prisoner.

I don't see it being played out any differently here in the US. You go after the people, they'll go after you.

Is that a threat. Please clarify your statement.

Just referring to my personal experiences from combat. To break the will of the fighting troops the opposing forces will go after their families, bomb their homes, blow up hospitals, churches, schools, stores and restaurants, shoot doctors, teachers and civil servants, mine roads, destroy infrastructure, cut communications, kidnap school children and force them to fight against their parents (handcuff them to their weapons so they can't drop them - but you can't see that from a helicopter or an IFV)...you know....WAR. UGLY.  And that's just before the battle. You need to get out more. Where have you been?

Quoted: LOL, Fatazz, out of shape, and no training to speak of are the only opposition. Damn you guys are bad off. Hope that Mosin does ya some good against a M2IFV. This is where you advocated using armor against American citizens. (aka my friends) can the majority of your terrorist cell ruck march 12 miles in 3 hours or less with full pack? This is where you called us terrorists. Do you really think some militia nutjob is going to throw himself at an M2IFV when the driver's family is sitting at home, unprotected? This isn't a foreign country. OK....I'd have to call that fair enough...but- This is where I remind you that you are vulnerable too. You won't be sleeping any deeper than I will, knowing what you have in your heart. ...this is where I laugh hysterically. <Snip>

You need to take a chill pill bunny, apparently you missed the smiley faces, where I was making fun of you.

I didnt advocate using armor against US Civvies, i made a point that your limited arms wouldnt be much use against IFV. Deep breaths dude.

Terrorist cell(notice smiley, relax, obviously you cannot take a joke, old age?).

You made the impied threat against Service members families, not me. But helo(insert poge here)pilot wouldnt be much work for my wife anyways.

Again deep, deep breaths and go take your meds, okie dokie. Dream good happy, happy thoughts of armed insurrection. Charlie mike.

Quoted: You need to take a chill pill bunny, apparently you missed the smiley faces, where I was making fun of you. I didnt advocate using armor against US Civvies, i made a point that your limited arms wouldnt be much use against IFV. Deep breaths dude. Terrorist cell(notice smiley, relax, obviously you cannot take a joke, old age?). You made the impied threat against Service members families, not me. But helo(insert poge here)pilot wouldnt be much work for my wife anyways. Again deep, deep breaths and go take your meds, okie dokie. Dream good happy, happy thoughts of armed insurrection. Charlie mike.

Yeah, I get a little wound up. But I've seen a little too much.

Is that a threat. Please clarify your statement.

Just referring to my personal experiences from combat. To break the will of the fighting troops the opposing forces will go after their families, bomb their homes, blow up hospitals, churches, schools, stores and restaurants, shoot doctors, teachers and civil servants, mine roads, destroy infrastructure, cut communications, kidnap school children and force them to fight against their parents (handcuff them to their weapons so they can't drop them - but you can't see that from a helicopter or an IFV)...you know....WAR. UGLY. And that's just before the battle. You need to get out more. Where have you been?

Military types forget we were also military and that they are not particularily special, and we also took an oath to defend the Constitution, something many "government types" seem to forget soon after they take that oath.  They also seem to forget, like other wars from within, that you are fighting your own kin, and are vastly outnumbered by civilians.

The whole world wonders why so many Americans are "anti-government" in the best nation in the world, in fact, one would say this country was born of the trait, and to be anti-government is to be a Proud American.  We know we need our government, a well controlled government, not a well controlled populace.

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Military types forget we were also military and that they are not particularily special, and we also took an oath to defend the Constitution, something many "government types" seem to forget soon after they take that oath. They also seem to forget, like other wars from within, that you are fighting your own kin, and are vastly outnumbered by civilians.

The whole world wonders why so many Americans are "anti-government" in the best nation in the world, in fact, one would say this country was born of the trait, and to be anti-government is to be a Proud American. We know we need our government, a well controlled government, not a well controlled populace



Yep alot of vets out there, but how long have most been out? Wha kind of shape are they in? Skills degrad with time, new technology has to be mastered, old-timers are far behind the power curve.

Out-numbered?? You mean like in Iraq? In a fight the majority will stay low and do nothing, look at history for evidence of this, some will fight, most will not.

Hmmm, some excerpts from the Court TV link-Call it the Clif notes version.

Following the arraignment Randy was set free on bail.  The way Ayers had mistakenly explained the procedure, Randy walked away convinced that no matter what he did, the government was going to take his land from him.

They vowed that they would never again set foot off their mountain.  They were at war now, and the federal government was their prime enemy.  Vicki began writing letters to government agencies peppered with phrases like “The tyrant's blood shall flow” and “Whether we live or die we will not obey you…war is upon our land.”  For the next 16 months, the Weavers stayed atop their mountain and survived off the land.  No one, not even the children, ever left the house unarmed.

Cooper then stood up from his position and repeated the phrase, however before he could get all the words out of his mouth, Kevin Harris wheeled around and fired at Degan with a 30.06 rifle.  Cooper looked over and saw Degan fall back, realizing that his comrade had just been shot.  Cooper then fired a three-round burst at Harris with the "suppressed”. 9mm.

...Roderick saw Sammy Weaver enter the Y and run up the trail.  Sammy called Roderick a, "son of a bitch" and shot two rounds at him.  Roderick quickly dove behind a tree.

Randy, Kevin, and Sam ran out to the rock with their weapons.  Randy was carrying a double barrel 12-gauge shotgun.  Kevin was carrying a 30-06 bolt-action rifle.  Sam was carrying a 223 mini 14.

“When I reached the first fork in the logging road, a very well camouflaged person yelled 'freeze RANDY,' and I immediately said 'f--k you,' and retreated toward home 80-100 feet.  I realized [sic] immediately [sic] that we had run smack into a ZOG/NEW WORLD ORDER ambush.

As news of the Ruby Ridge casualties reached the press, the small group assembled at the bottom of the mountain began turning into a mob.  Signs were held up to oncoming vehicles ─ “Death to Zog” and “Baby killers.”  Those present later stated that they had never seen such an angry crowd before in their life.  At one point a group of heavily armed anti-government sympathizers were arrested as they made their way up the mountain to support the Weaver family.

The defense continued by arguing that the shootout was a direct result of federal agent Arthur Roderick’s actions, in which he killed the Weaver family dog in proximity to Samuel Weaver, which caused Samuel to return fire in self-defense

Randy Weaver has been deemed the patron saint of militant gun owners, a living martyr whose infamous shoot-out with federal agents helped ignite "A seething backlash in the country," as the N.R.A. puts it.  This backlash, along with the Branch Davidian's standoff in Waco, Texas, was later said to have caused the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah federal building in Oklahoma City, by Timothy McVeigh.

Hmmm-domestic terrorism.




Bunny- I've been around long enough that it's not my first dance, or even second.

We established however some, although not all its [self-government] important principles . The constitutions of most of our States assert, that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves, in all cases to which they think themselves competent, (as in electing their functionaries executive and legislative, and deciding by a jury of themselves, in all judiciary cases in which any fact is involved,) or they may act by representatives, freely and equally chosen; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed. --- Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824. Memorial Edition 16:45, Lipscomb and Bergh, editors.

A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves...and include all men capable of bearing arms. -- Richard Henry Lee, Additional Letters from the Federal Farmer (1788) at 169.

The militia is also the civil authority, the gov and military only can be insurrectionists.

Thanks to the .mil bros for playing along you have been the best recruiters and motivators I ever had.

The militia is the natural defense of a free country against foreign invasions, domestic insurrections, and domestic usurpations of power by rulers. The right of citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered as the palladium of liberties of the republic, since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers, and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them. -- U.S. Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story, Commentaries on the Constitution of the U.S., Book III at 746 (1833)

Well thnaks for you playing along to, apparently you dont know when your being lead around by the nose.  You need to develop a sense of humor and realize when people are messing with you.  Also step away from the keyboard and enter the real world from time to time. You keep living in your turner diary world is most unhealthy for your mental state.

Quoted: Well thnaks for you playing along to, apparently you dont know when your being lead around by the nose.  You need to develop a sense of humor and realize when people are messing with you.  Also step away from the keyboard and enter the real world from time to time. You keep living in your turner diary world is most unhealthy for your mental state.

You guys keep talking like that and it's going to cost you some pizza.

Quoted: From Da_Bunny: We can't dig a ditch, plow a field, repair our homes, build a fence, cut down a tree, pick up a rock, bury a dead animal, shoot our rifles, put up an antenna or cut a trail without breaking a regulation or law. Who needs such useless minions interfering in their life? From Matt45: BS, in fact, show me in each case where there is a law saying you cannot.I contend that (you're) carrying this to far, even for a mental exercise. It is possible to do these things without breaking the law. But the shitty part, is that is much easier to do them while breaking the law. Government interference of its own gifthorse(s) is rampant, blatant, and a crying shame.

Yet another answer devoid of fact.

I don't care to hear anyone's explinations or justifications. I want to see the facts in the examples put forth.

Quoted: You guys keep talking like that and it's going to cost you some pizza.

Pizza??? Izzat some kinda anarchists' code?

Quoted: Yet another answer devoid of fact. I don't care to hear anyone's explinations or justifications. I want to see the facts in the examples put forth. Quoted: You guys keep talking like that and it's going to cost you some pizza. Pizza??? Izzat some kinda anarchists' code?

You seem to be mistaking yourself for a judge. We speak of our lives and you want enough evidense to indict. If we had it, we would indict ourselves. However, the people fleecing you of your tax money are very good at what they do. They are not bumbling fools, they cover their tracks. Any incriminating conversations are verbal, so we only learn of them second and third hand from the welfare artists who love to brag of their thievery. When the time comes for confrontation, they shut their mouths or just lie, if they have the skill.

You can see it everyday in the newspapers, if you know the backstory.

I'm not going to try to find evidense to convince you. You are the ones getting double fucked by Olympia to pay for Olympia's, King County's & Seattle's stupifying largesse. I can, at least, enjoy the perks once in a while. They are widening my road, building another HOV lane and a bunch of overpasses (where there already are overpasses) right now. Then there is the tunnel under Beacon Hill, the new freeway exits, the monorail taxes for the non-existant monorail, replacing the unused train tracks in the bus tunnel, miles of concrete sound barriers, free housing for the homeless, the state employee's health club memberships, the State Patrol's POV fleet...

All Blue elements, Phase line Bullshit is being passed... And someone get me some popcorn on the next logpack, I'm out..

In response to my earlier dumb question, it was explained to me that a troll was someone who deliberately stirred up trouble.  In the course of asking my next question, I asked y'all what you thought of Ruby Ridge and Waco.  DirtyBird = Troll.

I really appreciate all of you taking the time to go over your various views.  Tumbleweed, thanks especially for the link to the long article going over Ruby Ridge.  Read through the whole thing, and I feel like I better understand what happened there.

I can't say as I really have any wisdom to add.  However, I think this issue - government force, used against folks who for whatever reason value their privacy - really touches a nerve in most or all of us.  We all might be united by an appreciation of firearms and shooting.  But beyond that, we all represent a whole ShitPile of backgrounds and perspectives.  That's led to a discussion I'd describe as heated.

As the one who started it, I'd suggest bringing it to an end.  I don't think Matt or 1611infantry really want to grease their tracks with the blood of American children.  I also don't think that Strat or Bunny really want to go after soldiers' children or loved ones.  The heat and passion of this discourse have backed y'all up into some rhetorical heights that are hard to come back down from.

I, for one, sincerely hope the next revolution never comes.  I hope American troops are never used against American civillians.  I also hope American milita units never run ops against the families of soldiers.  There's a whole lot that would have to happen before such a godawful event would or could take place.  God willing, it never will.

In advance of that, perhaps we can agree that the use of force by federal law enforcement agencies against politically extreme groups / fucking disgusting religious meglomaniacs is an inherently explosive affair.  When it is botched, for whatever reason, it hurts the country.  God willing, Uncle Sugar has learned a little something from his previous mistakes, and will not repeat them when the time comes to go after the next Koresh.

So what do you all say?  How about some deep breaths, hand shakes all around, and a return to bitching about taxes, gun store employees and other assorted grumpy old man topics?

Thank you for your time and attention.