Posted: 1/21/2006 7:15:22 PM EDT
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I'm thinking of buying another 50 BMG rifle - the guy wants $2000, which is about $500 off list. OK. He's in washington, I'm in washington. It's a private sale. He refuses to do FTF - wants to transfer via FFL "just to be safe". What a maroon. |
 If it is legal, I am not doing any paperwork, unless I want to do paperwork... I would pass. |
Not just directed at you RedDawg6. I disagree. Sometimes its nice the cops don't come beating down your door because it was used/found at a crime and you are the last registered owner. From that stand point I understand why the guy wants a paper trail. Every time I sell a gun I at least get a receipt to cover my ass. It would be nice if we did not have all the laws and f**ked up government we do and we could mail order the things like in the old days. |
| This is sort of an interesting thread and Id like to add some of my thoughts. I know some here will call me a kool aid drinker, liberal, wimp or whatever and thats fine. Fire away. I understand the annoyance you all are feeling about the seller wanting to go thru an FFL BUT in my view theres more to consider. While Ive done many FTF sales (none here) I always sold to someone I *really* knew or if a stranger to me insisted on a CCW. I decided I really didnt want to sell a gun to someone who shouldnt have it. Yes, it would be a huge hassle if a crime gun was traced back to me. Worse still is knowing I aided a criminal in his crime. I see it as my responsibility to make sure that doesnt happen. Beyond that I dont want the anitgun crowd to use something I did to discredit other gun owners. So, there you have it. I know I wouldnt want to be looked at by a seller as a possible felon BUT I can understand it from his POV too. I know Im not a felon but he doesnt. Understanding this I dont mind his insistance on getting some assurance Im not going to cause him, other gun owners and the community in general a problem. |
OK, nice stats which proves nothing. It certain does speak to the points I talked about. How do you know what criminals spend on guns? Certainly they come in all flavors...I think the Arabs would spend that and more. Being a criminal doesnt always mean youre stupid even though many are. Im glad you like to exercise your rights. Nothing I said precludes that. I like to exercise my rights too. A background check OR making sure youre not a criminal does preclude that either. I never said FTF sales were illegal. They quite legal. OTOH the seller has EVERY right to make sure youre not a felon or otherwise prohibited from owning a FA. Are you selling sidewalks? What does that have to do w/ this discussion? Look at it this way...did you whine when they did a background check for your ccw? How about when they fingerprinted you? How about the fact thet the county/city keeps them around for x years 'just in case'? Do you whine when you buy from an FFL and you have to submit to a NICS check? |
Your point is what? It certainly doesnt speak to the points I made about your responsibilities as a gun owner. You all would agree that w/ rights come responsibilities...right? If not then youre no better than the liberals who demand their rights but use them to dump on their country w/o apology. |
The point is, it's not in response to anything that you posted. There is no comment from me directed towards you, it's in response to the stats CavVet was speaking about. If you've been paying attention you'll know that I'm headed to Olympia on Tuesday to confront the Judiciary Committe on their attempt to close down gunshows in WA and get started on the path to eliminating all FTF sales. That is why I have those stats at my fingertips. |
It shows where criminals get a majority of their guns.
DOJ stats on guns used in crimes. I know, worthless to you. "Arabs" Yeah those 9/11 guys spent thousands on guns. 
You have every right to want to do that, Ry and myself will probably pass on the deal.
And the legal basis for this is??
Its a parable demonstrating why I disagree with your position. At this very moment, you can agree to sell me a gun. We can go to the gun dealer, sing Kumbaya so you feel better and do the deal. I can bring the gun home, stop at McDonalds and do a Kerlikowski, and the gun is on the street to the bad guy to rampage with in under a half hour. All the background check in the world did nothing.
I dont whine, nor do I beg. If you wish to go beg .gov permission and approval to do what is legal, knock yourself out. If you want to start a flamefest.......Nomex On |
Sorry...OK. |
First, no need for Nomex...Im not here to flame. I do want to give another perspective to whats been tossed around so far. Do you agree that certain people in our society shouldnt own or be able to access firearms? If not then we're light years apart on this subject and I would say that in the end youll do gun owners more harm than good. If you agree w/ my stmt then do you believe its your responsibility as a gun owner to make sure your weapons dont get into the hands of those who shouldnt have them? OK, so crminals get their guns from certain sources but that doesnt limit them to those sources. Im not going to let stats dictate my responsibilites as a gun owner. Im going to make sure I dont put guns into the hands of somone whos going to use them against me. The stats arent worthless but also not gospel either. Theyre a guideline...and thats how I use them. I think then both you and I would part company in argreement...thats OK b/c its my gun to sell and yours to pass on. That said I wouldnt necessarily require a NICS check. There are other ways to make sure Im dealing w/ someone who should be in possesion of guns. The legal basis for what? Im not exactly following this...As the seller I dont need a legal basis for what Im doing. Its my property and I can sell them to who I like for whatever reason w/i the law. However, I know that certain people shouldnt have guns: felons, the mentally unstable, illegal aliens etc. Im going to do everything in my power not to sell to them. Yes, thats exactly correct. A background check isnt a guarantee and to rely on it as such isnt smart. (Just like relying on stats above.) OTOH just selling to anyone is also unwise. These are two ends of the spectrum. I also didnt say that I would do a NICS. I would require something from the buyer to convince me that theyre not prohibited from owning FAs though. As I said if they have a CCW then thats all I need. Im sure there would be other ways as well. You didnt really answer the question about the CCW/FFL background checks. If you have one or have bought from an FFL then in essence (by your defn) you are 'begging'. Like it or not each of us answers to some authority. That isnt wrong or bad (at least in most cases). Just for the record: Im not saying that FTF sales should be curtailed. Im not saying that any gun owner should verify their buyer. However, theyd be wise to do so. Im not saying that FTF sales should go thru any particular test for verification. I am saying that the govt has no business regulating FTF sales IF gun owners do it themselves. This is exactly what WAC is doing already as well as many gun owners. To date Ive not heard a good argument why we as gun owners shouldnt verify who we're selling to in FTF sales. What I have heard is folks not wanting to give up their rights but havent explained whats being given up. I understand you know youre a good guy but the seller doesnt necessarily know this. |
We are light years apart. I can gladly stand with TJ on this one. No free man should ever be barred the use of arms. If the sonofabitch cant play well with others, lock them up or excuse them from the planet, do not create laws that criminals ignore and only serve to infringe on my free rights and will. Youll think what you wish, you will turn yours in before I will.
They arent a guidline either. They are a predication of factual experiences. And please show us any examples of exactly how many of the original subject, 50 BMG's, have been used in crimes, whether FTF or through a FFL cavity search. You keep selling through a background check if it makes you sleep better at night. Ry, myself, along with a lot of people here will keep conducting FTF transactions in full accordance with the letter of the law, and our own sense of conscious and right from wrong,, with no interference from any outside parties. |
It appears theres nothing more to discuss at this point. However, youre mischaracterizing my position. I never said anything about wanting a BG check. I do want to make sure Im not selling to someone who shouldnt have a gun though...there are other ways to accomplish that other than a BG check. Wanting to verify my buyer isnt about me (my peace of mind). I care about my neighbors and community enough to make as sure as possible Im not harming them by selling a gun to someone who will perpetrate a crime w/ it. Its unclear why you think Ill turn my weapons in before you will or even that I would. How did you come to that conclusion? |