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Posted: 12/20/2005 8:36:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 8:39:58 AM EDT by XD_Fan]
Since today was a particularly messed up commute (I blame it on Gibby for having a job interview in timbuktu. Best of luck by the way) I got to listen to all of the latest Trans-Siberian Orchestra Christmas album. Also the clickity-click of studded tires. Pet peeve of mine.

When studded tires first came out I was a kid in Missouri. The Missouri Highway Department decided they would allow their use for a year and evaluate the damage to the highways. After that first year they extended for one more year and said no way. They do too much damage to the roads versus the benefit they provide. I know Wisconsin doesn't allow them and its not like they don't get any snow. So...
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 8:48:15 AM EDT
I would rather hear and see studded tires than have WA start using salt on the roads....I have seen what salted roads does to cars.....its aint pretty.....killed more of my precious Land Cruisers than anything else :(

so I vote YES.....keep them studed tires :)
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 9:05:27 AM EDT
yep, keep em, the wetside doesen't get as much snow nor does it stick around as long as it does over here on the dryside, we have hills here that almost require studded snow to get up. personaly I think it should almos be a county by county thing, except I know it wouldn't work that way,you would be leagal in one county of the state and not in another so yes keep those studded snow tires and deal with it untill a better way is found.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 9:17:36 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 9:31:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bigscrun:
Eastsiders need studded tires I think, but over here the majority of the people don't need them.



+1
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 9:35:26 AM EDT
What a pansy. I can't believe you even have to ask. be a man and drive with bald tires



I vote yes on snow tires for us westy's.

-rob
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 10:25:58 AM EDT
The sheeple here on the "wet side" need studs, chains, prayer, etc. For the most part they are a bunch of "front wipes" who are afraid to drive in the snow. Case in point: Look at all the schools that close down when there is only one inch of snow on the road. I remember a snow storm we had a few years ago when we had about a foot or so of snow. The liberal morons from Seattle couldn't deal with it and many of them just left their cars parked on I-5 (in the middle of the freeway) and walked home. Is that stupid or what!
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 10:46:34 AM EDT
Which does more damage...studded tires or cars sliding out of control? Drivers here (western WA) find it a stretch to drive in rain much less snow and ice. I say let them keep the studded tires. Additionally, this area has no credible snow removal plan. In New England at least we could count on reasonable snow removal and deicing. Anyway, snow and ice happens so infrequently there's no way drivers can maintain the proper driving skills to deal w/ it....rain though is another issue.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 11:41:16 AM EDT
Lived on the dry side most of my life,
Only owned one set of studded snow tires in my life.
Drive more than 150,000 miles per year by profession.

Studded tires give you a false sense of security and may actually contribute to more accidents.
They do an enormous amount of damage to the roads and aren't necassary for people to commute.
Salt is not the alternative, they have developed much better deicing products so banning studded tires won't automatically mean rusty cars.

I say ban em but then most people think those ruts in the road are caused by semi's
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 12:37:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PCR-00:

Originally Posted By bigscrun:
Eastsiders need studded tires I think, but over here the majority of the people don't need them.



+1



+2

Like it ever snows around Puget Sound.



btw - Thanks XD_Fan!
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 1:52:12 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 2:15:57 PM EDT
I say we ban Washington natives and California transplants from driving when it snows.

I grew up where it snowed every day and I had to drive uphill both ways to get to school and then work afterwards.

I have used snow tires once and they were so old and worn that none of the studs were left. Until I was old enough and had enough money to buy my own vehicles I also used two wheel drive (RWD) vehicles usually with bald tires. Driving in the snow is something you learn how to do. Putting a couple 50 lb bags of silica sand or kitty litter (floor dry) in the trunk or bed is also something you learn to do.

That being said, it doesn't snow enough on the wet side for people to be inspired enough to learn how to drive so I go back to my first comment.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 2:17:38 PM EDT
I understand...I drove in NE winters w/ 2WD and all weather tires....and concrete filled cinderblocks for added weight. There were times I thought I might not get to where I was going but always made it OK. However, 4WD SUVs also give the (inexperienced) driver a false sense of safety on bad roads...until they hit the brakes going too fast. While you may get better traction w/ 4WD you stop like all the rest. I suspect studs don't do as much damage as chains though. When you account for the total population that run studs I suspect the road damage in comparison is minimal. In New England many ran studs and the roads weren't badly damaged by them...frost heaves were more damaging.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 2:39:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 2:40:38 PM EDT by 1GunnerHogan1]
Studded tires=Cost
Don't we have enough rocks, pebbles etc. from dump trucks, gravel trucks & the like already breaking windshields? Are roads get rutted and then you have studded tires tearing it up as well?
My $.02?
Ban studded tires (West of the Cascades)
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 4:50:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:50:18 PM EDT
$529.64 worth of brand new, mounted and balanced set of 5 studded snow tires says YES...

People that know how to drive don't have a false sense of security no matter what kind of tires are on the vehicle.
My commute is 16 miles each way, give or take a bit, depending on traffic/weather conditions.
The roads and weather can be different at any given point in that commute.
Having the studded snow tires allows me an extra edge in maintaining control of the vehicle.

When I bought the set, the guy behind the counter told me 'studs are for the old school guys'...
I told him, "I'm OLD SCHOOL. Put 'em on!"
He tried to tell me that the tire compounds are so 'new tech' that studs weren't needed.
I told him, "Yeah? Tell a mountain climber he can wear rubber soled shoes and no cramp-ons..."
The counter guy admitted I had a point.

The REAL trouble is the amount of people driving here in Washington that aren't FROM Washington.
You either know how to go, or, don't go.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 6:59:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BusMaster007:

The REAL trouble is the amount of people driving here in Washington that aren't FROM Washington.
You either know how to go, or, don't go.


You're right, unfortunately I've had to help at too many accident scenes where the idiot just can't beleive they had the wreck cuz "gee, I don't know what happened, I got studded tires"
The same with 4x4's, too many idiots think that gear makes up for training and experience
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:12:47 PM EDT
People don't allow for spacing and stopping distance when it's dry, let alone when it's wet or icy. The 30 car pile ups are due solely to neglect and carelessness.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:47:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AssaultPossum:
I understand...I drove in NE winters w/ 2WD and all weather tires....and concrete filled cinderblocks for added weight.



hey! i resemble that comment!

ban the bastards! it's annoying how damned tore to SHREDS the interstates are in oregon. WA isn't so bad, but the ones i drive on are all resurfaced for the most part. when i'm flying along at 3mph down the autobahn here, i get bounced all over the place lol.

took me a few weeks to figure out why the hiways were so beaten. then, i stopped by a les schwab one day, with "impending doom" from the sky (that never came).

never owned a set of studs back home. in fact, it's pretty hard to find studs or chains. i could see where the steep hills could benefit from a set of chains. i keep thinking "damn, this area would have some mighty fine sledding action"... but no snow!!
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 8:16:20 PM EDT
Ok, just a few things....I do this driving thing to make my cash, and have so for years.

Studs are great on ice and hard pack snow.

Testing shows state of the art is better. Ice is the only reason studs exist. It doesnt improve anything in soft or fresh snow, and most importantly studs decrease stopping distance on rain or dry roads.

This alone is bad enough juju for me to never consider using studs.


And they do damage roads, especially in a major metro area with high traffic volumes.

BTW.....

Studs were illegal here until 1969.



1974 WSDOT issued the following “Statement of Policy” to all states & local
government:
“Available information indicates that there is no net safety benefit to be derived
from the use of present studded tires. This fact, coupled with the excessive wear
and physical damage to the roadway surfaces provides a sound basis for
precluding the continued permissive use of a convenience feature, which is
effective for relatively short periods of time. This warrants State and local
consideration of efforts to ban or limit the use of studded tires which cause more
pavement wear than normal treaded tires.”


1977 WSDOT prepared a report on the effects studded tires have on roadway surface’s
integrity. The following is a summary of this report:
“Studded tires wear road surfaces at rates substantially greater than other tires.
Most damage is in the form of rutting and reduced skid resistance. Such damage
increases the potential for accidents caused by slippery pavements and by
hydroplaning.
Studded snow tires provide about a ten percent advantage over conventional tires
in stopping ability on glare ice and hard packed snow. In all other situations,
studded tires provide no advantage and even an 11% disadvantage on wet
asphalt. It’s estimated that there is compact snow or ice on our roadways only
1% of the time
.”




If you guys are sending wives or kids out with them, I sure hope they drive better than I do, Lord knows I need ever foot/second when emergency stop situations arise. Studs rob you of both, time and distance.

I have two cardinal rules for winter driving.

1) Increase distance of following & stopping and slow down. Momentum is your friend and enemy.

2) If I need chains or any outside help other than good tires, I probably dont need to go there that bad.



I live at the top of a steep hill, and when everyone else slid into the curb and failed to make it up, I drove my Monte Caro right up the hill. Remember, these nutjobs that use studs are libtards, they are appealing to their sense of kumbaya, they make them feel safer and better. Hell they cant drive on dry road.

I find anything these libtards do suspect, and as such I try not to emulate anything they do. As such, I am currently trying to find viable alternatives to eating and breathing.

Link Posted: 12/20/2005 8:25:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 8:26:09 PM EDT by CavVet]

Originally Posted By AssaultPossum:
In New England many ran studs and the roads weren't badly damaged by them...frost heaves were more damaging.



Freeze thaw cycles is a test (Sodium Sulphate Soundness Test) used in crushed limestone aggregate back east to determine its susceptibility to freeze thaw, which is the number one killer of roads back east.

According to WSDOT.......


# Rutting damage caused by studded tires is limited to state routes, primarily on the interstates. This is due to the higher speeds and volumes.

* Concrete: 100% of rutting damage is related to stud use (roughness, noise)
* Asphalt: Approximately 60% of the rutting damage is related to stud use.

Link Posted: 12/21/2005 6:10:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2005 6:13:04 AM EDT by 1811GNR]

According to WSDOT.......


I gotta differ with you on this one Cav.
You know better than to quote the source of a lot of the traffic problems in WA. They gave us I-5 at the convention center. DOT is gonna deflect and redirect every time.
Take a look at the rolled up asphalt along the curb out on E. Marginal. Studded tires didn't do that.
Rather than banning studded tires the .gov should cut back on overweight permits for commercial trucks. More, kinder, friendlier, and most important, lighter concert trucks.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 6:30:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1811GNR:

According to WSDOT.......


Take a look at the rolled up asphalt along the curb out on E. Marginal. Studded tires didn't do that.




Reread it. 100 on concrete, only 60% on Asphalt. Not sure if surface streets are included in their numbers or not.

Ohio has no studded tires. I have never seem concrete roads that loook like I-5 north or south. Looks like the equivelant of an asphalt grinder has been at work on them, that aint weight.




Rather than banning studded tires the .gov should cut back on overweight permits for commercial trucks. More, kinder, friendlier, and most important, lighter concert trucks.


Weight isnt shredding the roads, and studs dont make driving any safer, unless sheets of ice or hard pack snow are present. Studs decrease braking distances on wet or dry roads, and that in itself is a driving hazard.

Hell, get her up to 50 and lock up the brakes on a rainy highway. I call 8 ball corner pocket.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 7:49:53 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 10:12:22 AM EDT
Most of I-5 has been subject to a concrete grinder. Piss poor design where the individual slabs are not tied together at the joints. The joints become speedbumps, DOT hires grinders to surface the roads.
I'm sure most of the concrete on I-5 goes back several decades.
I'm not arguing for studded tires, wouldn't use them on this side, just saying that there is more to the road wear around here than studded tires
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 10:23:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1811GNR:
Most of I-5 has been subject to a concrete grinder. Piss poor design where the individual slabs are not tied together at the joints. The joints become speedbumps, DOT hires grinders to surface the roads.
I'm sure most of the concrete on I-5 goes back several decades.
I'm not arguing for studded tires, wouldn't use them on this side, just saying that there is more to the road wear around here than studded tires



What you say is true. WSDOT seems to be composed of drop outs from highway design school. Witness all the left hand merge lanes and that mess at 196th and 405. They could have put in a cloverleaf 8 years ago when they started with the mess they have and used about half as much land, a third the materials and probably half as much money.

In my opinion the damage done to the highways, the autopilot grooves/ruts, is not worth the safety or traction factor they represent. The damage they cause is exactly the reason they are prohibited in many of the real winter states. I've driven and lived in heavy snow areas most of my life. I think I can remember using chains a couple of times. I have three sets in my garage right now that have never been used. I do believe we have an over abundance of poorly skilled drivers in the Puget Sound area. Look at how poorly people drive in the rain. That would be understandable if it rained like it does in California. But after the first couple of weeks in the rainy season even they drive better in the rain than the average Puget Sound driver.

Link Posted: 12/21/2005 10:40:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2005 10:44:40 AM EDT by AssaultPossum]
I still say studded tires should be allowed b/c western WA drivers are generally inept and need every possible advantage. Either you have damaged roads or gridlock caused by multiple wrecks. The road damage is easier to solve --the legislature can pass an addition emergency gas tax hike to cover the costs which is certain to be approved if it comes to a vote. See wasn't that easy?
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 5:04:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AssaultPossum:
I still say studded tires should be allowed b/c western WA drivers are generally inept and need every possible advantage. Either you have damaged roads or gridlock caused by multiple wrecks.



So inept drivers have an advantage by using studs that require more time and distance to stop on dry or plain wet roads?

Link Posted: 12/21/2005 5:46:54 PM EDT
AssaultPossum needs the tires to have an excuse for his driving.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 7:26:49 PM EDT
Studded tires are useful up in the mountains where I live on the North East side, even with studs, and chains and a 4 wheel drive, a coasty would likely run into alot trouble up here. This state needs to be split in half right down the damn middle, so people on my side of the state don't have to suffer for what people in completely different world decide is right or wrong.
It'll all be Washifornia pretty quick anyway.

Link Posted: 12/21/2005 7:37:01 PM EDT
Ummmm...and your point is what???
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 7:37:36 PM EDT
Not me...I need no excuses for my driving.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 9:24:47 AM EDT
studs are needed over here because the city won't pony up the dough to plow or deice the roads so we are stuck driving on compact snow and ice for 3-5 months of the year. On my commute from work to home I have to go up Freya St (I live on the south hill in spokane) that freya hill is about 2.5 miles long and at more than a 12% grade, I have seen people try to go up it with "all season tires as well as non-studded snow tires and they invariably come sliding right back down ( usualy strait at me). Once you're off "the hill" it isn't nearly so bad and you can get by with non-studded tires but you need them on the hills because they don't plow 'till there is at least 6 inches of snow on the ground. driving a big rig or heavy load vehicle you have the advantage of weight and usualy more wheels and thus traction on the roads but driving the family van even with weight in the back you still can't get up the hill without studs(or chains)
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 11:27:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AssaultPossum:
Not me...I need no excuses for my driving.



Suuuuuuuure, tell that to your victims.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 1:10:49 PM EDT
Victims? I thought those 'bumps' were rough roads caused by studded tires.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 4:50:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AssaultPossum:Which does more damage...studded tires or cars sliding out of control?


Damage to what?? If your talking the road then its studs hands down. Rut city and full of water 10 1/2 months of the year. If you talking about the asshats that don't know how to drive they are the same asshats that crash when its wet so the overall impact probably isn't that great for the couple days of bad weather we get a year around here.

I think they should ban "metal" studded snow tires. I personally have never had a set and have never used them. Air down and don't be a throttle jockey and your good to go 99% of the time.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 8:23:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 8:27:10 PM EDT by BusMaster007]
CavVet, you Anti-Stud...

You posted a lot of good sense stuff, but think about the numbers.

Lock up your brakes with regular tires in the rain --- 8-ball in the corner pocket, as you say.

During the 'rainy' season, nobody has the studded snow tires on...so, moot point.

During the 'icy' season, I guess according to the numbers, LESS people are using studded snow tires, so again, moot point. I'm one of the few who perceived a NEED for them.

During the 'snow' season...well, that might last anywhere from a day to a week at a time, and the snow may not BE everywhere I drive during the commute, so the extra traction provided by the studded tires is a welcome safety feature.
CHAINS might need to be put on and taken off numerous times just to make the commute --- each way!
I'll take the advantage studded snow tires give me over that time consuming and unnecessary practice any time, especially if I don't need to do it.

I may also be one of the few that don't practice tailgaiting in any kind of weather.
My following distance tends to be longer than a high percentage of drivers on the road, so my using studded snow tires in this case is again a moot point.

As I stated before, my particular commute encompasses many different types of roads, elevations, overpasses, and weather changes.
I have a NEED for the studs on the tires to drive to work and get home SAFELY.
Thank goodness I still have a choice to buy and use that particular product.

And I'll drive in the LEFT lane if I HAVE TO!


Link Posted: 12/23/2005 3:58:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/23/2005 3:59:40 AM EDT by CavVet]

Originally Posted By BusMaster007:
CavVet, you Anti-Stud...



Nothing says libatrd like studs to me.


You posted a lot of good sense stuff, but think about the numbers.

Lock up your brakes with regular tires in the rain --- 8-ball in the corner pocket, as you say.



But still a shorter distance than if you have studs.



During the 'rainy' season, nobody has the studded snow tires on...so, moot point.


Its the rainy season now and every libtard with their import has studs on.



During the 'icy' season, I guess according to the numbers, LESS people are using studded snow tires, so again, moot point. I'm one of the few who perceived a NEED for them.


If you remember that on dry and wet roads (read non ice or snowpack) your stopping distance is increased, have at it. Also, ice or snopack is <1% of the time, again by the DOT numbers



During the 'snow' season...well, that might last anywhere from a day to a week at a time, and the snow may not BE everywhere I drive during the commute, so the extra traction provided by the studded tires is a welcome safety feature.


According to the various tech sources, there is no advantage in fresh snow.



CHAINS might need to be put on and taken off numerous times just to make the commute --- each way!
I'll take the advantage studded snow tires give me over that time consuming and unnecessary practice any time, especially if I don't need to do it.



Chains in Seattle?? Cmon man.


I may also be one of the few that don't practice tailgaiting in any kind of weather.
My following distance tends to be longer than a high percentage of drivers on the road, so my using studded snow tires in this case is again a moot point.



You and me both, thats what happens when you push 20+ tons up the road a lot.


As I stated before, my particular commute encompasses many different types of roads, elevations, overpasses, and weather changes.
I have a NEED for the studs on the tires to drive to work and get home SAFELY.
Thank goodness I still have a choice to buy and use that particular product.



I may lobby gregwhore to protect my roads from you.



And I'll drive in the LEFT lane if I HAVE TO!




I had studs on the Crown Vic, it was mandated in the wintertime. That big Tuesday snow dump last year, I noticed little difference, again, fresh snow. I never could make it up Magnolia, despite trying everything in my arsenal, despite having the golden cureall studs. I did notice the increased stopping distance on surface streets in the dry or wet roads, which was the lions share of the time.

I think they would be great.........In colorado or other higher elevations with a lot of ice or a lot of snowpack. I hate the .gov telling me what to do or how to do it, and even being against studs, even realizing a person using them has increased stopping distance a majority of the time and may end up hitting me because of it, i still support their free use.

I just hope everyone in King County can put down their cellphone and latte while driving with them
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 9:54:39 PM EDT
CavVet,
You and I could probably pick between corn and peanuts in a turd and still find common ground on which one had the most 'traction'...

Point being, we both know I'm no 'libtard'.
The product serves me as it stands.
I encounter enough variation to justify my need.

As for the cellphone wielding latte drinkers - I'm in total agreement with you.

Link Posted: 12/23/2005 11:31:30 PM EDT
Your kidding....

That is money I could be spending on AMMO..
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 10:07:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Da_Bunny:

Originally Posted By AssaultPossum:
Not me...I need no excuses for my driving.



Suuuuuuuure, tell that to your victims.





-Rob
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 5:52:38 PM EDT
what so now I'm a libtard cause I have studs on my (domestic) minivan?





­

<­BR>

Link Posted: 12/24/2005 6:18:49 PM EDT
Studded tires are for tourists.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 9:25:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BusMaster007:
CavVet,
You and I could probably pick between corn and peanuts in a turd and still find common ground on which one had the most 'traction'...



I'm trying to visualize that and it is totally digusting!
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 5:57:49 PM EDT
Oregon chiming in. Here in Portland we get asshats who put on studded tires in November and leave them on until April. Chews the crap out of the roads. Of course the added benefit being in a "rainforest" style climate is that the ruts fill up with .25"-0.5" of water during the rest of the year making highway driving fun.

Let them have studs, but make them pay for it via permits (as an ODOT suggestion made).

I have also driven in Ohio and Virginia and never needed studs.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 4:59:43 PM EDT
I believe in natural selection, if the subtypes can't handle driving in snow without studs; Let them thin themselves out and clean up the gene pool. For all of you four wheel drive fanatics (of which I am one), break the code doofus! You don't stop any faster than anyone else. The major premis is when you were granted a license to operate a motor vehicle, you had to display a modicum of common sense.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 5:03:39 PM EDT
We all know that Freya is the only acess to the S. Hill get real!
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