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Posted: 12/5/2005 11:12:30 AM EDT
At a holiday function Saturday night, I wound up in a discussion with some other gun owners regarding what to do if/when a person gets pulled over for a minor moving violation. For the record, it's been over six years since I've been pulled over, so I'm a little "rusty" shall we say. Here are my thoughts:

Turn off ignition.
If your windows were up, leave them up (or cracked about one or two inches)
Hands at 10 o'clock and two o'clock.
If LEO don't ask, I don't tell.

One of the other folks in the group said that it is best to have all windows rolled down before the officer approaches the vehicle. YEAH RIGHT! If I was a cop and I was walking up on a stop that had all of it's windows down on a cold rainy Western Washington night, I would be tip-toeing back to the cruiser for the 870.

This individual also mentioned that it is best to offer up your CPL with your DL since it is required by law you tell the officer anyway. I could not find a specific RCW stating that you must tell if not asked, only that if asked-you must tell:

RCW 9.41.050
Carrying firearms.
(1)(a) Except in the person's place of abode or fixed place of business, a person shall not carry a pistol concealed on his or her person without a license to carry a concealed pistol.

(b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so. Any violation of this subsection (1)(b) shall be a class 1 civil infraction under chapter 7.80, RCW and shall be punished accordingly pursuant to chapter 7.80, RCW and the infraction rules for courts of limited jurisdiction


Since I am older, I don't drive near like I used to when I was young, so my likelyhood if getting pulled over is less than in years past, but I beleive in "never say never."

Let me also state: I will not construe any subsequent postings as actual legal advise and hold harmless any and all persons who respond to this posting for anything and everything that could possibly happen in life.

Thanks.

Trey

Link Posted: 12/5/2005 11:14:08 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 11:19:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER:

Originally Posted By twoducetrey:
This individual also mentioned that it is best to offer up your CPL with your DL since it is required by law






kinda what I was thinking

Trey
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 11:57:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By twoducetrey:

Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER:

Originally Posted By twoducetrey:
This individual also mentioned that it is best to offer up your CPL with your DL since it is required by law






kinda what I was thinking

Trey



No ask, No Tell. However I've always been of the opinion that if any paperwork that the officer asks for is going to expose my firearm...best to tell him ahead of time. No use getting shot at because the officer thought you were going to draw on him.
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 12:06:15 PM EDT
The last couple times I have been pulled over I have offered my DL and CPL at the same time to the officer, and told him that I was carrying. I don't know if it helped, but I have not received any tickets since. They didn't pull me out of the car, nor did they even ask for the gun. The just told me to not touch it(it was in my glovebox each time).
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 12:50:57 PM EDT
Similar to Kooter. I got pulled over about 1.5 yrs ago in Idaho. They have reciprocity, so I had it on, and just wanted to CMA (cover my you-know-what). I started him with the DL and CPL. He asked where it was, told him on my person. His request was to not make any moves towards it, and I wasn't so lucky; nailed with a ticket. I don't know about Washington (hope never to get pulled over again), but I might hand over CPL just to put us both at ease. If the officer is aware, I stand a much smaller chance of getting ventilated because I printed in the seat. While maybe not required by law, in my mind it's a smart decision.
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 1:02:24 PM EDT
I took a reputable firearms class recently, names witheld.

The instructor told us, in very clear terms, to lie to the officer.

The instructor said, don't offer CPL unless asked. If asked if carrying a firearm, say 'No', even if you are. If he asks you to step out of car, then say, 'I am carrying' BEFORE you open the door and get out. It'll probably piss the officer off but it's not against the law to do.

The instructors reasoning was, if you tell the officer that you are carrying, even with a CPL, then he has probable cause to search your car. The search could leave the motorist open to planted evidence or to things out of the drivers control, like their children leaving a pot seed in the car, etc.

I am not sure I agree with the instructor but I kinda see the point being made.

Any opinions on this?



Link Posted: 12/5/2005 1:07:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cugir:
I took a reputable firearms class recently, names witheld.

The instructor told us, in very clear terms, to lie to the officer.

The instructor said, don't offer CPL unless asked. If asked if carrying a firearm, say 'No', even if you are. If he asks you to step out of car, then say, 'I am carrying' BEFORE you open the door and get out. It'll probably piss the officer off but it's not against the law to do.

The instructors reasoning was, if you tell the officer that you are carrying, even with a CPL, then he has probable cause to search your car. The search could leave the motorist open to planted evidence or to things out of the drivers control, like their children leaving a pot seed in the car, etc.

I am not sure I agree with the instructor but I kinda see the point being made.

Any opinions on this?






Treat others as you would be treated.....I don't assume that every cop out there is dirty so the above advice does not work for me. I also don't like getting shot. If the cop gets a "bad feeling" about me and decides to search me (after I lied about my gun). If I have a gun on me he's not going to be pleased. It all spells a bad day to me.

Link Posted: 12/5/2005 1:57:28 PM EDT
Does anybody know if there is any truth to what I've heard in regards to your status as a CPL holder being tied to your DL and thus will come up on the officer's computer when he/she runs it?

Trey
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 1:58:23 PM EDT
I don't see how legally carrying gives the officer any right/ reason to search your vehicle.
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 1:58:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By twoducetrey:
Does anybody know if there is any truth to what I've heard in regards to your status as a CPL holder being tied to your DL and thus will come up on the officer's computer when he/she runs it?

Trey



I can't imagine why it WOULDN'T come up in a DL search
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 1:58:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cugir:
I took a reputable firearms class recently, names witheld.

The instructor told us, in very clear terms, to lie to the officer.

The instructor said, don't offer CPL unless asked. If asked if carrying a firearm, say 'No', even if you are. If he asks you to step out of car, then say, 'I am carrying' BEFORE you open the door and get out. It'll probably piss the officer off but it's not against the law to do.

The instructors reasoning was, if you tell the officer that you are carrying, even with a CPL, then he has probable cause to search your car. The search could leave the motorist open to planted evidence or to things out of the drivers control, like their children leaving a pot seed in the car, etc.

I am not sure I agree with the instructor but I kinda see the point being made.

Any opinions on this?






I would be very hesitant to lie to the officer because after that point, whatever credibility you may have had just went bye-bye, even in court.

Trey
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 2:17:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By twoducetrey:
Does anybody know if there is any truth to what I've heard in regards to your status as a CPL holder being tied to your DL and thus will come up on the officer's computer when he/she runs it?

Trey



If you filled out the WA pistol form at a dealer when you purchased any handguns, they are in the database.

That said, I don't think they come up unless the officer runs your S.S. # or D.O.B. and name rather than D.L. #. I could be wrong. R-32 can correct if I am.
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 2:25:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 2:29:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By twoducetrey:
Does anybody know if there is any truth to what I've heard in regards to your status as a CPL holder being tied to your DL and thus will come up on the officer's computer when he/she runs it?

Trey

Yes is does and if it is ever suspended they send a notice to the DOL.
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 3:06:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/5/2005 3:09:33 PM EDT by Matt45]

Originally Posted By cugir:

The instructor said, don't offer CPL unless asked. If asked if carrying a firearm, say 'No', even if you are. If he asks you to step out of car, then say, 'I am carrying' BEFORE you open the door and get out. It'll probably piss the officer off but it's not against the law to do.

The instructors reasoning was, if you tell the officer that you are carrying, even with a CPL, then he has probable cause to search your car. The search could leave the motorist open to planted evidence or to things out of the drivers control, like their children leaving a pot seed in the car, etc.

Any opinions on this?Yep a strong one.




1st, There are a lot of questions cops ask where the answer is known, they're just looking for a baseline of honesty.

2nd, YES, your CPL IS tied to your DL, any cop doing a traffic stop will first call in the plate, then run you in WASIC and NCIC and DOL. You will come back from those checks with a "T" code, IIRC, T-3 for a CPL holder.

3rd. IF the cop is suspicious, the extra 10 minutes spent in the car before approaching the vehicle is running your registration/plate, and then running the names of the Registered owners.

4th. Lie to a cop about a concealed firearm, or CPL, you've just obstructed of a law enforcement officer in the course of their duties. An arrestable offense. Remember RCW 9.41.050(1)(b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so.

The instructor is waaaaaaaaaay out of wack, and IMO, placing his/her students in legal jepoardy. Legally carrying a firearm does not IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM THAT I AM AWARE OF, negate OR NULLIFY your 4th Amendmant protection from illegal search and siezure. From what you wrote "The search could leave the motorist open to planted evidence or to things out of the drivers control, like their children leaving a pot seed in the car, etc. the instructor sounds like a paranoid looney, or one that didn't do a very good job of raising their children.

Bottom line, Relax, have your insurance where you can easily find it, and roll the window down at least halfway. Place the vehicle in park, and wait. Offer the CPL with the DL, and Insurance. You are already pulled over, making a bunch of sudden or "furitive" movements will only make your life or the encounter more difficult.
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 3:13:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER:

Originally Posted By Kooter:
The just told me to not touch it(it was in my glovebox each time).



It is supposed to be on your person.

Had a long drawn out convo on an I-5 offramp with a WSP Trooper where we got out law books and read together.



That is not how RCW 9.41.050 reads. I think we've had a long discussion on this before, with some differences of opinion of the WAHTF about the syntax of the statute. As I read it and understand, having it loaded, and in the glove box, is 100% within the bounds of the law.



(2): A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (a) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (b) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (c) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.

Link Posted: 12/5/2005 3:30:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kooter:
The last couple times I have been pulled over I have offered my DL and CPL at the same time to the officer, and told him that I was carrying. I don't know if it helped, but I have not received any tickets since. They didn't pull me out of the car, nor did they even ask for the gun. The just told me to not touch it(it was in my glovebox each time).




I've been doing traffic stops for along time, and never once have I written anyone a ticket who had a CCW/ CPL. It shows me that I am dealing with good people, and I try not to write good people citations. I've found that a friendly word goes much farther than a citiation with most people. However, there are times when nice words just dont' work.



Link Posted: 12/5/2005 4:04:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/5/2005 4:05:47 PM EDT by PCR-00]

Originally Posted By Stickman:

Originally Posted By Kooter:
The last couple times I have been pulled over I have offered my DL and CPL at the same time to the officer, and told him that I was carrying. I don't know if it helped, but I have not received any tickets since. They didn't pull me out of the car, nor did they even ask for the gun. The just told me to not touch it(it was in my glovebox each time).




I've been doing traffic stops for along time, and never once have I written anyone a ticket who had a CCW/ CPL. It shows me that I am dealing with good people, and I try not to write good people citations. I've found that a friendly word goes much farther than a citiation with most people. However, there are times when nice words just dont' work.






Stick's and Koter's story is the story I hear more often than not.


ETA: I was however, framed for the murder of JFK once because I admitted to having a rubber band gun in my glovebox.
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 4:29:20 PM EDT
I ran out of gas in My boat once north of Vantage and got towed in By a kittitas reserve cop and
we disagreed about if it is supposed to be on the person or not/it was in the glove box. He started being a dick and giving
us a coast guard inspection etc trying to find a way to give Me a ticket. After He radioed in and found out I was right He went from being a prick to being nice towed us into Vantage and even helped us hual gas down to the boat.
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 5:41:24 PM EDT
The Packing website is a good reference. WA is a not required to show state.

What that particular instructor gave you was advice on how to go to jail. Yes, you should lie to the cop and proof to him you really are an asshat. What an idiot.
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 6:01:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gigmike:
I don't see how legally carrying gives the officer any right/ reason to search your vehicle.



+1

Link Posted: 12/5/2005 6:21:50 PM EDT
+1 to what Matt wrote.


Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER:

It is supposed to be on your person.

Had a long drawn out convo on an I-5 offramp with a WSP Trooper where we got out law books and read together.



There was a State Senator that asked the state AG for a clarifications on this some years ago, It doesn't have to be on your person, but I think it was McClean that stated (in the infamous SKSGuy car holster thread) this changes if another person is in the vehicle and they don't have a permit also.
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 6:27:30 PM EDT
I consider the cops the good guys. I'd give them my CCW and license at the same time just to put them at ease. They put their lives at risk every day. I don't need to add to their stress factor.

Militia /off
I know someone will come back with their "vote from the rooftops" response, given this is ar15.com. I look at it as setting a good example to LEA that legal gun ownership is a positive experience. I'm not a sheep.

Besides..I have to carry or CavVet will ridicule me at breakfast get togethers.
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 6:53:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/5/2005 6:58:19 PM EDT by Eric]

Originally Posted By cugir:
I took a reputable firearms class recently, names witheld.

The instructor told us, in very clear terms, to lie to the officer.

The instructor said, don't offer CPL unless asked. If asked if carrying a firearm, say 'No', even if you are. If he asks you to step out of car, then say, 'I am carrying' BEFORE you open the door and get out. It'll probably piss the officer off but it's not against the law to do.

The instructors reasoning was, if you tell the officer that you are carrying, even with a CPL, then he has probable cause to search your car. The search could leave the motorist open to planted evidence or to things out of the drivers control, like their children leaving a pot seed in the car, etc.

I am not sure I agree with the instructor but I kinda see the point being made.

Any opinions on this?





The "instructor" is a moron. Feel free to tell him I said so. I've made more traffic stops than I can count. When drivers start lying, it sets off all kinds of bells an whistles.

If stopped and asked if you are carrying a weapon, the first words about of your mouth should be that you have a permit, then tell the officer the where/what info. Don't blurt out I HAVE A GUN! If you start off that way, you may find that the offer has a gun too.
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 7:00:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/5/2005 7:05:14 PM EDT by cugir]

Originally Posted By Matt45:

Originally Posted By cugir:

The instructor said, don't offer CPL unless asked. If asked if carrying a firearm, say 'No', even if you are. If he asks you to step out of car, then say, 'I am carrying' BEFORE you open the door and get out. It'll probably piss the officer off but it's not against the law to do.

The instructors reasoning was, if you tell the officer that you are carrying, even with a CPL, then he has probable cause to search your car. The search could leave the motorist open to planted evidence or to things out of the drivers control, like their children leaving a pot seed in the car, etc.

Any opinions on this?Yep a strong one.




1st, There are a lot of questions cops ask where the answer is known, they're just looking for a baseline of honesty.

2nd, YES, your CPL IS tied to your DL, any cop doing a traffic stop will first call in the plate, then run you in WASIC and NCIC and DOL. You will come back from those checks with a "T" code, IIRC, T-3 for a CPL holder.

3rd. IF the cop is suspicious, the extra 10 minutes spent in the car before approaching the vehicle is running your registration/plate, and then running the names of the Registered owners.

4th. Lie to a cop about a concealed firearm, or CPL, you've just obstructed of a law enforcement officer in the course of their duties. An arrestable offense. Remember RCW 9.41.050(1)(b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so.

The instructor is waaaaaaaaaay out of wack, and IMO, placing his/her students in legal jepoardy. Legally carrying a firearm does not IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM THAT I AM AWARE OF, negate OR NULLIFY your 4th Amendmant protection from illegal search and siezure. From what you wrote "The search could leave the motorist open to planted evidence or to things out of the drivers control, like their children leaving a pot seed in the car, etc. the instructor sounds like a paranoid looney, or one that didn't do a very good job of raising their children.

Bottom line, Relax, have your insurance where you can easily find it, and roll the window down at least halfway. Place the vehicle in park, and wait. Offer the CPL with the DL, and Insurance. You are already pulled over, making a bunch of sudden or "furitive" movements will only make your life or the encounter more difficult.



I agree with you Matt45. It sounds kinda sketchy lying to cop for no apparent reason. I'll see if that instructor would like to comment here or maybe just clarify to me.

I did ask that instructor if they were sure about their advice, the answer... absolutely.
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 7:03:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER:

Originally Posted By Kooter:
The just told me to not touch it(it was in my glovebox each time).



It is supposed to be on your person.

Had a long drawn out convo on an I-5 offramp with a WSP Trooper where we got out law books and read together.



Vapors has .gov paperwork on this issue. He showed it to me last time I wase in Robe. In short, it didn't appear to need to be on your person. Not sure about if another non CPL was in the car.

He's making a copy for me and I'll post it here when I get it...FWIW.
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 8:11:24 PM EDT

RCW 9.41.050(1)(b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so.



What if (God forbid) you were not carrying at the time? Then there would be no reason to have your CPL with you.

For work, I often have to go onsite to schools, courthouses, airports, or even across the border to Canada with little to no advance notice. There are various workarounds there, but I don't have time to deal with the logistics.

Yes, I'm sure I will regret it some day.

I do carry my CPL with me at all times, but I wouldn't think to offer it if I'm not carrying. If if will give me extra points with LE or make them more at ease without screwing me, I'm fine with handing it over with my DL.

Link Posted: 12/5/2005 8:47:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cugir:

Originally Posted By cugir:

The instructor said, don't offer CPL unless asked. If asked if carrying a firearm, say 'No', even if you are. If he asks you to step out of car, then say, 'I am carrying' BEFORE you open the door and get out. It'll probably piss the officer off but it's not against the law to do.

The instructors reasoning was, if you tell the officer that you are carrying, even with a CPL, then he has probable cause to search your car. The search could leave the motorist open to planted evidence or to things out of the drivers control, like their children leaving a pot seed in the car, etc.

Any opinions on this?Yep a strong one.





I agree with you Matt45. It sounds kinda sketchy lying to cop for no apparent reason. I'll see if that instructor would like to comment here or maybe just clarify to me.

I did ask that instructor if they were sure about their advice, the answer... absolutely.



I'll be the lone dissent then. You should, under all circumstances, say absolutely nothing to the officer. Comply with reasonable requests (ID, insurance, CCW, etc) but you are under no obligation to utter a single vowel - it can only be used against you.

Before I heeded this advice, whenever I admitted to a firearm in the vehicle, it immediately became a fiasco. They'd want to secure the scene, run the serial#'s on every item in plain view - it becomes a justification hunt, or at the very least, training for the rookie riding shotgun. After enough of these, if pulled over they'd see the NRA sticker, ask for the gun and I'd say no gun. They left it at that - far less painful. But now I don't speak at all just because I don't want to risk an Obstruction charge but more importantly, if you say nothing - nothing can be twisted into a confession of even the smallest infraction. This comes from almost 10 years of working for a few LE agencies - its just the way they work.
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 9:06:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cugir:
I took a reputable firearms class recently, names witheld.

The instructor told us, in very clear terms, to lie to the officer.

The instructor said, don't offer CPL unless asked. If asked if carrying a firearm, say 'No', even if you are. If he asks you to step out of car, then say, 'I am carrying' BEFORE you open the door and get out. It'll probably piss the officer off but it's not against the law to do.

The instructors reasoning was, if you tell the officer that you are carrying, even with a CPL, then he has probable cause to search your car. The search could leave the motorist open to planted evidence or to things out of the drivers control, like their children leaving a pot seed in the car, etc.

I am not sure I agree with the instructor but I kinda see the point being made.

Any opinions on this?





Complete and total Bullshit and it's time for a different firearms instructor. Probable Cause??? for what crime??
If a cop asks if you have a weapon, tell him you have a CWP, and tell him where the gun is. Chances are he'll ask to see the CWP, but tell you to keep your hands off the gun. There is no crime that can be inferred from the fact you have a permit and a legally possessed weapon.
Now if you lie to him and he catches you in the lie, there's reasonable suspicion that would inclued a frisk for officer safety. Then your gun would have it's numbers ran and possible a quick frisk of your car for WEAPONS (not drugs) and only things in your area of reach.


Damm, some people think all cops are JBT's and assholes, but think it's okay to lie about something stupid
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 9:12:50 PM EDT
I always hand the permit first them the DL, insurance, and registration. I know I don't have to do it that way but it lets them know right up front I am legal and have nothing to hide. IIRC I usually get the do not handle the firearm during this stop for any reason speech and that is that, but I am not usually the lucky one that doesn't get the ticket?!?!

I did have one officer on the Oregon Coast ask me hand him my weapon. I laughed and told him it was in both of our best interest for me not to pull a loaded weapon out for no appearant reason and that there was no way it was gonna happen. "Are you crazy Wilis??" Pulling out a loaded weapon for a police officer on a stop??? Not this kid....He gave me a puzzled look and went on about his stop.

If you are the paranoid type it is true that you don't have to say anything at all. You can actually roll the window down a crack just so you can hear the officer and slip your info through the opening and say nothing. I would suggest 10 and 2 on the wheel and plan on getting the ticket...
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 9:16:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mordecai:

Originally Posted By cugir:

Originally Posted By cugir:

The instructor said, don't offer CPL unless asked. If asked if carrying a firearm, say 'No', even if you are. If he asks you to step out of car, then say, 'I am carrying' BEFORE you open the door and get out. It'll probably piss the officer off but it's not against the law to do.

The instructors reasoning was, if you tell the officer that you are carrying, even with a CPL, then he has probable cause to search your car. The search could leave the motorist open to planted evidence or to things out of the drivers control, like their children leaving a pot seed in the car, etc.

Any opinions on this?Yep a strong one.





I agree with you Matt45. It sounds kinda sketchy lying to cop for no apparent reason. I'll see if that instructor would like to comment here or maybe just clarify to me.

I did ask that instructor if they were sure about their advice, the answer... absolutely.



I'll be the lone dissent then. You should, under all circumstances, say absolutely nothing to the officer. Comply with reasonable requests (ID, insurance, CCW, etc) but you are under no obligation to utter a single vowel - it can only be used against you.

Before I heeded this advice, whenever I admitted to a firearm in the vehicle, it immediately became a fiasco. They'd want to secure the scene, run the serial#'s on every item in plain view - it becomes a justification hunt, or at the very least, training for the rookie riding shotgun. After enough of these, if pulled over they'd see the NRA sticker, ask for the gun and I'd say no gun. They left it at that - far less painful. But now I don't speak at all just because I don't want to risk an Obstruction charge but more importantly, if you say nothing - nothing can be twisted into a confession of even the smallest infraction. This comes from almost 10 years of working for a few LE agencies - its just the way they work.




mordecai, I think my instructor was thinking in the same terms as you.
It really makes sense when I hear this type of advice especially the way you presented it. However, I'm not sure I'd have the resolve and I'd probably just comply.
I like yor idea of saying nothing instead of lying and saying 'I have no gun'.
I'm just now sure how that would go over.
officer - "I see a CPL...are you carring?"
me - silence
officer - 'I said, Are you Carrying?...Boy."
me - silence
officer - "'I need you to step out of the car"

Mordecai, how would yo respond to the above? just say nothing at all?
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 9:21:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By twoducetrey:
Does anybody know if there is any truth to what I've heard in regards to your status as a CPL holder being tied to your DL and thus will come up on the officer's computer when he/she runs it?

Trey



From what I've heard, WA is one of those states that have individuals CPL's tied into the states computers. You are not required by law in this state to tell an officer you're carrying. When they run yor license, they'll soon figure it out.
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 9:25:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Belial:
I always hand the permit first them the DL, insurance, and registration. I know I don't have to do it that way but it lets them know right up front I am legal and have nothing to hide. IIRC I usually get the do not handle the firearm during this stop for any reason speech and that is that, but I am not usually the lucky one that doesn't get the ticket?!?!

I did have one officer on the Oregon Coast ask me hand him my weapon. I laughed and told him it was in both of our best interest for me not to pull a loaded weapon out for no appearant reason and that there was no way it was gonna happen. "Are you crazy Wilis??" Pulling out a loaded weapon for a police officer on a stop??? Not this kid....He gave me a puzzled look and went on about his stop.

If you are the paranoid type it is true that you don't have to say anything at all. You can actually roll the window down a crack just so you can hear the officer and slip your info through the opening and say nothing. I would suggest 10 and 2 on the wheel and plan on getting the ticket...



Belial, this is great advice IMO.
The first paragraph tells whe what I should probably do.
The second paragraph addresses something I never even thought about.
The thiird , i think, summarizes what my instructor told me..and the consequenses.
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 9:28:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/5/2005 9:35:39 PM EDT by vapors]

Originally Posted By cugir:

The instructors reasoning was, if you tell the officer that you are carrying, even with a CPL, then he has probable cause to search your car. The search could leave the motorist open to planted evidence or to things out of the drivers control, like their children leaving a pot seed in the car, etc.



I don't think so. There's a thread in the LEO section over on the GlockTalk forum regarding "voluntary searches" of persons cars. One of the points made regarded Probable Cause and Reasonable Suspicion. I think the only way they could get you on probably cause would be here there were reports of shots fired in the area..then they would have "probably cause" to want to search your vehicle if you admitted to having a firearm in the car....otherwise, no go.

The GT thread was very interesting. One of the individuals is a LEO in this state and pointed out some things that are very useful. Apparently the use of "if you don't agree to a voluntary search...then I'll get a warrant and a dog here...but were going to wait" will more than likely get any evidence tossed in court because the seach isn't "voluntary" anymore when they do the "or else" deal. Apparently in this state you can specify where the officer is allowed to search and when they should stop.

If you want to readall about it...the thread is here

BTW Cugir, I've got those documents for you in my car...next time I see you up there, I'll give them to you.
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 9:31:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Cugir
mordecai, I think my instructor was thinking in the same terms as you.
It really makes sense when I hear this type of advice especially the way you presented it. However, I'm not sure I'd have the resolve and I'd probably just comply.
I like yor idea of saying nothing instead of lying and saying 'I have no gun'.
I'm just now sure how that would go over.
officer - "I see a CPL...are you carring?"
me - silence
officer - 'I said, Are you Carrying?...Boy."
me - silence
officer - "'I need you to step out of the car"

Mordecai, how would yo respond to the above? just say nothing at all?



Mordecai- My response is very simular....
To sit and say nothing...that sounds like grounds for an officer to perform a field sobriety check. I've got a close friend who works for the State patrol as a Commercial Vehicle Enforcement Officer, he's got a nifty little slogan for folks that don't like to play ball....."Press hard Sir, 5 copies"
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 9:38:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/5/2005 9:40:03 PM EDT by Matt45]

Originally Posted By vapors:
The GT thread was very interesting. One of the individuals is a LEO in this state and pointed out some things that are very useful. Apparently the use of "if you don't agree to a voluntary search...then I'll get a warrant and a dog here...but were going to wait" will more than likely get any evidence tossed in court because the seach isn't "voluntary" anymore when they do the "or else" deal. Apparently in this state you can specify where the officer is allowed to search and when they should stop.


If they have Probable cause that you committed a crime, they most likely aren't going to ask for a consensual search, they'll just get the warrant.
If a dope dog keys on the vehicle, they have PC to search, they then either need your permission or a warrant.
Yes, you can specify, areas to be searched, and say stop in WA, on a search that is occurring with your consent only.

Also-
If arrested on any charge the officer also has the right to search what is called the "Lunge area" of your motor vehicle, namely anyplace that you can reach from the driver's seat. If your car is wrecked and towed, it will be subject to an inventory search which is only limited to the officer not entering locked containers.

Link Posted: 12/5/2005 9:45:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/5/2005 9:48:49 PM EDT by vapors]

Originally Posted By Matt45:
If they have Probable cause that you committed a crime, they most likely aren't going to ask for a consensual search, they'll just get the warrant.

If a dope dog keys on the vehicle, they have PC to search, they then either need your permission or a warrant.



Correct from what I understand. If they have probably cause that a crime was committed, they'd just get the warrant and go to it.

I thought the subject of this discussion was if you were pulled over (for speeding as an example) that the officer doesn't have probable cause for much of anything....now if you roll down your window and they suspect your intoxicated...well now they do. But saying "Hi Mr. Police officer....oh by the way, I've got a concealed handgun under my passenger seat and a CPL" goesn't give them probable cause to do a vehicle search. ..... If they try and go fishing by doing the "would you consent to a voluntary vehicle search?" ..... just say no!
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 10:01:38 PM EDT
Thanks alot for destroying my country.
I will be sure to all necessary papers to prove my innocence at all times.


“It’s the unconquerable soul of man, not the nature of the weapon he uses, that insures victory.”
When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. --Thomas Jefferson



Link Posted: 12/6/2005 4:33:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/6/2005 7:25:37 AM EDT by mordecai]

Originally Posted By Matt45:

Originally Posted By Cugir
mordecai, I think my instructor was thinking in the same terms as you.
It really makes sense when I hear this type of advice especially the way you presented it. However, I'm not sure I'd have the resolve and I'd probably just comply.
I like yor idea of saying nothing instead of lying and saying 'I have no gun'.
I'm just now sure how that would go over.
officer - "I see a CPL...are you carring?"
me - silence
officer - 'I said, Are you Carrying?...Boy."
me - silence
officer - "'I need you to step out of the car"

Mordecai, how would yo respond to the above? just say nothing at all?



Mordecai- My response is very simular....
To sit and say nothing...that sounds like grounds for an officer to perform a field sobriety check. I've got a close friend who works for the State patrol as a Commercial Vehicle Enforcement Officer, he's got a nifty little slogan for folks that don't like to play ball....."Press hard Sir, 5 copies"



Without a doubt - in my mind I'm getting a ticket - which is why he pulled me over in the first place. And of all the times I've employed the SILENCE response, I've only gotten a ticket once. Here's the reason. They want you to ADMIT ANYTHING. Their case becomes rock-solid and their investigation is done the second you admit to something. A total lack of verbose on your part gives them nothing and actually makes any ticket look pretty stupid. I took the citation to court and the judge hammered each person on what they admitted to the cop. "Says here son you admitted driving 76 mph." <Bang> Guilty. He got to me and read the citation. The cop scribbled the word "nothing" under Driver's Response. The judge looked at me and asked if I was speeding - I said no. He asked what I told the officer - I said nothing. He said OK, dismissed. (Actually, he muttered the cop must be a rookie - I had to leave before I peed.)

So if you think exercising your rights to remain silent is something that should be held against you, or that you're incapable of holding your tongue - sobeit. I'll take a flimsy traffic infraction over being hassled about my firearms any day.

And if you want to know how the SILENCE response goes down, I can only attest for myself. Each time I've employed it - At first they look at you to see if you're alive. Then they look at you to see if you're deaf. Don't ignore them. Just look at them and politely smile. Shrug if you want to, but say nothing. Every one of them has immediately turned around and walked back to the car to run my info. They immediately realize they're not getting the easy-bake confession and they'd rather be out doing something else. Is it hard? GOOD GOD YES. We as people have been condition responsed to be chatty-kathy in nervous situations - they use this to their advantage - it makes their work simple.

Trust me, I know you want to be buddy-buddy with the officer and consider him to be a brothern of sorts, but I personally have had enough experience with LE to know better. They'll all act like your best friend because it's what makes their job easiest - that's understandable. But then you've just let down your defenses and risk having that Adam Henry that's in every patrol shift. It's just not worth the trouble IMHO.
Link Posted: 12/6/2005 5:25:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/6/2005 5:33:25 AM EDT by Phil_in_Seattle]
nevermind
Link Posted: 12/6/2005 7:21:49 AM EDT
The proper words when asked if you have a weapon. "I have a carry permit and yes I am carrying." In WA if the officer has run your plates or license he already knows you have a CPL.

I see no issue with refusing to surrender your weapon provided you address the fact that its in everybody's best interest not to have someone handling an unfamiliar weapon. I've not seen this discussed as an option very much. Personally I'd be very reluctant to let someone unfamiliar with the XD take possesion of mine.

The proper answers to most question are yes and no at a traffic stop anyway. If asked for permission to search the proper answer is always no, not unless you have a warrant.
Link Posted: 12/6/2005 7:40:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/6/2005 12:50:25 PM EDT by mordecai]

Originally Posted By XD_Fan:
The proper answers to most question are yes and no at a traffic stop anyway. If asked for permission to search the proper answer is always no, not unless you have a warrant.



If they have a warrant, they don't need to ask - and they won't.

I can't tell you how many traffic stops are bluff and misdirection. As an example, I had the driver of a moving van come in one day to complain about a stop. He was hauling team equipment across town during a rash of hazing incidents (kids would be left in the back of a van all night with a keg of beer). The officer wanted to see what was in the rear of the van. The guy told him equipment but that wasn't cutting the mustard. The officer, admittedly, co-erced the driver thru intimidation and subtle threats. He carefully choose his words but implied they "could" get a warrant, seize the van, tow it to impound and be responsible for all the fees, yadda yadda yadda. The guy opens the back, the cop is happy and leaves. Is this wrong? Is this bad? Technically, no. The burden falls on the driver to have his wits about him and invoke his rights if he so wishes. Is it hokey? Let me just say I've never seen a warrant issued to search a van, just because (that pesky 4th Amendment). As anyone with 20 minutes of LE experience knows, this is SOP - the burden is on the accused to object but remain compliant with any redress to be made through the courts (ie, after the fact - (Nothing like taking a lickin' and then being told sorry)).
Link Posted: 12/6/2005 11:40:30 AM EDT
Years ago and for about 2 years I would get pulled over for a burned out tail light about every 4 months or so (I’d fix the tail light, but it never stayed fixed; turned out later there was a fairly big drug dealer that drove the same color, make, model, car as me and the cops wanted him big time). One of the stops was in Roy at night, it was a young police officer I handed him by DL, Insurance, and Registration…he runs it and comes back (what seemed like 30 minutes later) shaking he hands my stuff back and gives me a verbal warning, and asks with a quiver in his voice if I had a gun on me…Yes, I do (yes I was legal to carry). He goes back to his car and when he shuts off his lights I see 2 other cop cars in the parking lot across the street. Rookie mistake for both of us, I should have handed him my CWP with the rest. From then on I give my CWP, hand at 10 and 2, and am polite.

Latest pull over was for speeding (about 10 years and I drive a different car). State Patrol asks if I have firearm…No. My impression was the officer was anti-gun from the warning he gave me about if he had seen a gun there would have been issues. I told him I gave him the CWP as a courtesy. He runs my info, writes the ticket etc. I ask to see Speed Measuring Device (SMD), and for calibration results of SMD. 20 minutes out of my day no big deal.

I’d like to say yeah my CWP has gotten me out of tickets but it is not the case. I do think it has given me a genuine good guy status when I have had to deal with the Police. Also When I travel out of State where it is a mandatory to inform officers when you are pulled over it is a good habit to have.

Make it a great day
Link Posted: 12/6/2005 12:30:22 PM EDT
WOW......that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard!

please let us know who said this......so NO ONE will ever get MIS-instruction from them.


Originally Posted By cugir:
I took a reputable firearms class recently, names witheld.

The instructor told us, in very clear terms, to lie to the officer.

The instructor said, don't offer CPL unless asked. If asked if carrying a firearm, say 'No', even if you are. If he asks you to step out of car, then say, 'I am carrying' BEFORE you open the door and get out. It'll probably piss the officer off but it's not against the law to do.

The instructors reasoning was, if you tell the officer that you are carrying, even with a CPL, then he has probable cause to search your car. The search could leave the motorist open to planted evidence or to things out of the drivers control, like their children leaving a pot seed in the car, etc.

I am not sure I agree with the instructor but I kinda see the point being made.

Any opinions on this?




Link Posted: 12/6/2005 2:55:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Landpimp:


IH8MUD is that way -->

Link Posted: 12/6/2005 3:28:01 PM EDT
After talking to Mordecai at the latest shoot I think the next time I get pulled over (because it happens so frequently these days) I will remain silent. But the bit about refusing to tell the officer about the firearm and then telling him? Ok...I live a little on the edge but I'm not that stupid. Exactly what everybody else said. While it MAY or MAY NOT be legal....if the officer finds that you deceived him/her you will pay for it.

-Rob
Link Posted: 12/6/2005 4:41:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PCR-00:
I was however, framed for the murder of JFK once because I admitted to having a rubber band gun in my glovebox.




I remember you, it was all a misunderstanding, I only heard you say "rubber", and I thought you wanted to impregnate me. I feared for ADC (Assault with a Deadly Condom)....
Link Posted: 12/6/2005 7:36:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cugir:
I took a reputable firearms class recently, names witheld.

The instructor told us, in very clear terms, to lie to the officer.

The instructor said, don't offer CPL unless asked. If asked if carrying a firearm, say 'No', even if you are. If he asks you to step out of car, then say, 'I am carrying' BEFORE you open the door and get out. It'll probably piss the officer off but it's not against the law to do.

The instructors reasoning was, if you tell the officer that you are carrying, even with a CPL, then he has probable cause to search your car. The search could leave the motorist open to planted evidence or to things out of the drivers control, like their children leaving a pot seed in the car, etc.

I am not sure I agree with the instructor but I kinda see the point being made.

Any opinions on this?





IX Thou shall not bear false witness against thy meighbor. lying always ends up being a poor decision.

but, that's just my opinion.
Link Posted: 12/6/2005 7:48:21 PM EDT
Back in 97 when I was in an auto accident, the Trooper who responded was almost insisting that I had a firearm on me. As I was beeing loaded into the ambulance he kept asking me if I had a gun and it would be safer with him than in the car.

I kept responding that I did not have a weapon with me, and he kept saying "Are you Sure?"
"um yeah I'm sure"

Link Posted: 12/8/2005 6:16:33 AM EDT
must be another Landpimp ;) although those Toyota Jeeps are kinda neat :D




Originally Posted By IBTLplus1:

Originally Posted By Landpimp:


IH8MUD is that way -->


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