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Posted: 8/10/2003 11:30:52 PM EDT
Since I believe volcanoes are only in the PNW of CONUS and I was back east the last time, I figured I would throw this ? out here...

They guys at work told stories about the falling ash and vehicles. They said the air filter chokes off fast AND the windsheild covers fast....two part question....

Air filters....Can a cover be attached and ran into the cab to supply an air supply free of dust? OR Is there anything you can put over the intake (cheesecloth, etc) that wil allow airfolw and still feed enough fresh air to allow the engine to run properly?

Windsheild- Sinc ethey said Windsheild wipes scar the windsheild, would an air compressor blowing air onto the windsheils allow the dust to be blown enough to allow vision? Any other ways to keep the windsheild clear enough to allow continuous movement?

This volcano thing was something I wondered about, and knowing my fellow shtf/paranoid friends here may be able to devise ways to deal with these issues should we ever have to deal with it (again)....

Mt Baker(100 miles)


Mt Olympus(65 miles) My ass


Mt Raineer(60 miles)
Link Posted: 8/10/2003 11:44:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2003 11:46:43 PM EDT
I would think that if you came up with something to "take the clean air out of your cab" then you would begin to pull the dirty air from outside in...I remmember how thick that ash was. think of babypowder all over everything.

And who are you calling paranoid?
Link Posted: 8/11/2003 12:00:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By R-32:
And who are you calling paranoid?



"my fellow paranoid..."

And Stokes, if my mappin is close, you are closer to Raineer than I am, and the same to Olympus.

I really dont care about the other knucklehead IF...My vehicle can keep going and theirs is not....

Answers, I need answers......
Link Posted: 8/11/2003 12:14:34 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/11/2003 1:49:18 AM EDT
CV,

I think the ash caused probs with the engine several ways.

1)By overloading the air filter
2)By damaging the air filter through abrasion
3)Drivers removing the air filters when they over loaded and continuing to drive.

Would seem that a multi stage filtration system would be needed, or, as you alluded, a direct feed of clean air into the air filter. I dunno about using cabin air as that'll be contaminated as soon as you open the door.

The windows, some kind of feather duster bootie thing that fits over the wipers?

As good friend Stokes mentioned, you'll have some time to get away before the ash hits. Whether it is time enough I dunno.

Stokes,

His name was Harry Truman, up at Spirit Lake.

Link Posted: 8/11/2003 6:32:32 AM EDT
I like the feather duster on the wiper thing...that seems very good...!


I didnt know there was a good time delay on the ash. THATS good to know.

Now to get the air thing figured out...Maybe a water filter....? Like a bong for your car?
Link Posted: 8/11/2003 10:33:50 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/11/2003 3:47:14 PM EDT
How many cubic feet of air in a Scuba tank? How long will that run a typical car engine?

How bad was the ash over on the peninsula say around Forks? (that's over that way right? Gimme a break I'm from the Midwest!)

A water filter? Hmmmmmm whatever is used I think would have to be multistaged and self cleaning at the preliminary stages. Perhaps a filter, that shakes itself off, over a water box to trap the dust.

Jesus volcanic ash particles range from .3 to 30 microns? Good luck filtering that!

Link Posted: 8/11/2003 4:53:23 PM EDT
In an effort to keep my paranoias at an even plateau , I have recently cut myself off from the news.....saturday night was the first I have heard mention of this whole volcano thing and that was from a drunken compatriot of mine , and I had, until now , completely forgotten about it .....


please more info ....does a Seattle boy need be concerned ? , remember I am not a local , In fact a recemt transplant.....so , please fellas , help a brother out....



t
Link Posted: 8/11/2003 4:56:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Phil_in_Seattle:
How many cubic feet of air in a Scuba tank? How long will that run a typical car engine?



The typical SCUBA tank holds 80 cubic feet of air. I have no idea how long that would supply a car. My gut says not very long, but just out of curiosity I'd be interested in how well such a set up would work.
Link Posted: 8/11/2003 6:15:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER:
You guys are nuts.



Seems like you locals just take it as it comes, no big deal. Its us 'fereigners' who care....

My friend at work today said the ash/snowstorm fell down below Chehalis within 20 minutes of the eruption, and the wind was going the other way....

If When it does happen again, it will be falling fast...
Link Posted: 8/11/2003 6:24:29 PM EDT
Well the Scuba tank at 80 cubic feet of air won't work out.

Cavs Liberty with a 225cubic inch 6 cylinder engine needs over 150 cubic feet per minute at 3000RPM

My plan is to stay put and get the beer.
Link Posted: 8/11/2003 6:35:36 PM EDT
I know this is going to piss someone off but since when did I have tact?

This thread is the biggest waste of bandwidth since Algore invented the internet.
Link Posted: 8/11/2003 7:55:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bigern:
I know this is going to piss someone off but since when did I have tact?

This thread is the biggest waste of bandwidth since Algore invented the internet.



Damn sure wont piss me off, and I started the thread. Exactly why do you think its a waste?

Is being prepared, or at least well informed or gathering information about something you know nothing about a waste?

Like I said in my last post, the three of us that seem a little concerned/wanting to learn are not from here. The ones with the ez atitude are. Maybe there is something there for us to learn, dont worry about it...Or maybe we are curious enough to learn something...

Either way, how is it a waste oh wise one?
Link Posted: 8/11/2003 9:02:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CavVet:
Seems like you locals just take it as it comes, no big deal. Its us 'fereigners' who care....



That sounds right, I watched the first one from a sailboat on Budd Inlet. Didn't seem like anything to worry about then either.



My friend at work today said the ash/snowstorm fell down below Chehalis within 20 minutes of the eruption, and the wind was going the other way....



Isn't that the direction that ST Helens blew?

Link Posted: 8/11/2003 10:04:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2003 10:34:40 PM EDT by FishKepr]

Originally Posted By Tweak:

Isn't that the direction that ST Helens blew?




Not exactly. The blast was almost straight North. Chehalis is to the Northeast.

If you're lucky to take a Horizon flight between Seatac to PDX in clear weather, the mid level path provides a great view.

Given the relative lack of activity on this particular forum I don't think it's a TOTAL waste of bandwidth. Just an interesting thought exercise. Personally, I'm more concerned about an earthquake. In fact...


Originally Posted By mk_ultra:
please more info ....does a Seattle boy need be concerned ?
t



Check out this page on the official site:
www.nps.gov/mora/ncrd/hazards.htm

Seattle, especially the East side, has a solid geologic history of catastrophic earthquakes. That would concern me a lot more since there would be little or no warning, and many structures in Puget Sound were built prior to modern seismic standards. In contrast, volcanos provide months of warning prior to a big eruption, tremor patterns, swelling, etc.
Link Posted: 8/11/2003 11:32:35 PM EDT
Uh, Chehalis is NW of Mt. St. Helens. If it was NE it would have got hit worse due to the the coastal winds blowing the plume inland.

ve.ou.edu/weaver/st_helens/sumry-80.htm

Scroll down to "Lateral blast"

"Area covered:
230 square miles; reached 17 miles northwest of the crater"

Chehalis is further than 17 miles, more like 50, as the crow flies, but it is to the NW. 50 miles in 20 minutes, 150 MPH, impressive.

CV,

Check out the "Ash Fall Depth" on that same page on the "Eruption Column and Cloud" line.

Here's another view.
ve.ou.edu/weaver/st_helens/sthelens.htm

Yeah, it's 50 miles, 49 something, inversed Lat 46.2N Lon 122.18W to Lat 46.66N Lon 122.97W.
Link Posted: 8/11/2003 11:35:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Phil_in_Seattle:
Jesus volcanic ash particles range from .3 to 30 microns?



Yeah, that's why I was thinking that keeping A LOT of air filters on hand would be the only feasible solution. Maybe with some sort of "bulk filter" over the primary intake.
Link Posted: 8/12/2003 12:15:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2003 12:42:06 AM EDT by FishKepr]

Originally Posted By Tweak:
Uh, Chehalis is NW of Mt. St. Helens.



DOH! Dyslexic typo! The worst part is that I actually peeked at a map before I typed that! I also should not have said "straight" North. Poor choice of words. I was trying to imply a Northerly direction. Hey, it's getting late OK!

Cool links Tweak. Those stats are pretty amazing. It's interesting that the crater points directly North, yet your source clearly says the blast went Northwest. Obviously I'll have some more questions the next time I visit there.
Link Posted: 8/12/2003 1:36:11 AM EDT
For the air filter thing, I would suggest getting a home made "pre-filter" set up. Take a look at your air box and where the inlet is... find a pair of pantyhose or something to put over the inlet when the time comes. It will at least keep the heavy stuff out of the main air filter. Perhaps get a spare to store under a seat or something. You can clean the pre-filter a few times before you have to change the filter.

That's basically how race cars do it. You could find some of that actual material to use, but pantyhose or some type of wide weave material would work for an emergency... in my opinion.
Link Posted: 8/12/2003 2:32:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FishKepr:
I was trying to imply a Northerly direction.



Ah, surveyor speak, I savvy. Yes, northerly.


It's interesting that the crater points directly North, yet your source clearly says the blast went Northwest.


I think the blast direction was also influenced (canalized) to some extent by the surrounding terrain. The one pic

shows the lateral blast running down the Toutle River valley. If you seen it up there then you know that there is a ridge between the Green and Toutle rivers. This ridge (Windy?Johnston?) may have turned the blast westerly.

If anyone reading this hasn't been up to St Helens I highly recommed the trip, it's pretty awe inspiring to see that level of destruction.
Link Posted: 8/12/2003 5:36:27 AM EDT
DAMN! It seems that Raineer has constant earthquakes below it, which are a necessary precursor to eruptions.

Reading here it seems the actual flow is minimal historically, its back to the ash...


Prefilters, pantyhose, extra filters and a bong....hmmmmm
Link Posted: 8/12/2003 10:08:48 AM EDT
I know that this goes against all things manly, but what about a Hy-bread car, just let the engin charge the batts' then run on Electricity. They look very gay so you would be able to blend in with the sheep in the citys (but I dont plan on heading into any citys in a TEOTWAWKI situation).
Link Posted: 8/12/2003 10:52:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By R-32:
I know that this goes against all things manly, but what about a Hy-bread car, just let the engin charge the batts' then run on Electricity. They look very gay so you would be able to blend in with the sheep in the citys (but I dont plan on heading into any citys in a TEOTWAWKI situation).



hybirds don't exactly work that way. you don't get the choice to flip to purely electronic drive and very rarely does the engine do that automatically. usually, the batteries are *assisting* the drive train while the engine provides the rest of the power and also recharging those same batteries. actually most of the 'green' energy comes from heat reclaimed from the front brakes. occasionally, the car will turn the motor off and run strictly on the battery, but it's usually sitting at a stop light w/o the ac on. as soon as you hit the gas, the engine revs back to life.

i read an ieee article on the cost benefits of hybrid cars and it turns out that it is more expensive/costly to the environment to run a prius than a corolla. you pay 2500 extra up front, you save about 1000 in gas over the life of the car vs. a corolla (which already gets ~40mpg), and the environmental savings (calculated by the epa) are about 500 dollars. so, you pony up a grand for the 'prestige' of driving a hybrid. now, the honda civic hybrid and the insight *do* provide cost benefit even w/o adding environmental cost savings.
Link Posted: 8/12/2003 11:01:57 AM EDT
(Damn, hijacking my own thread...)

So if you ran a hybrid out of gas, would it stop alltogether?
Link Posted: 8/12/2003 2:35:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By R-32:
(but I dont plan on heading into any citys in a TEOTWAWKI situation).



That's where I'm headed, all the honey's will be there.
Link Posted: 8/12/2003 3:08:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tweak:

Originally Posted By R-32:
(but I dont plan on heading into any citys in a TEOTWAWKI situation).



That's where I'm headed, all the honey's will be there.



What sort of beer shall I loot stock for you Tweak?
I don't have backup power provisions so pick something drinkable when it's not cold.
In most cases I'll be staying put in the city, barring whole city blocks being set ablaze I believe I can survive in the city. Ever see the movie Omega Man? (which FYI I believe has just been released on DVD)
Link Posted: 8/12/2003 3:32:01 PM EDT
BEER? Yuck man, beer's for low lifes.

Peppermint Schnapps, better cold but always drinkable.

Omega Man rocks, that whole little IR post apacalyptic scene was forward thinking even for the 70's. Helps when the enemy combatants can only move at night tho.
Link Posted: 8/12/2003 7:52:35 PM EDT
Heres something we run at times on the race car when alot of people are known to taking off track excursions and leaving debris on the track...

This is the Prefilter

http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=134672&prmenbr=361

and sometimes in conjuction with these...

Filter Wraps

http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=525&prmenbr=361

As far as the windsheild??? Some said a dustmop?? Sounds good to me....

Don't forget the beer....

Cheers

Link Posted: 8/12/2003 9:11:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Phil_in_Seattle:

Originally Posted By Tweak:
That's where I'm headed, all the honey's will be there.



What sort of beer shall I loot stock for you Tweak?



Oookay. Not sure what to make of THAT particular offer...

By an interesting coincidence, MSNBC ran a receint article about Mount Rainer that fits the discussion.

Mount Rainer Called a Threat
Link Posted: 8/12/2003 10:15:24 PM EDT
It means that I plan on being well supplied if I have to ride out a storm in the city and that I'd be willing to make adjustments to my supply chain to accomadate support forces.

Sheesh!

Besides Tweaks wife is far more cute and nice than I'd ever be.

Link Posted: 8/13/2003 4:14:37 AM EDT
Did you use the W word?

She's a better shot too.
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 5:28:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tweak:
Did you use the W word?

She's a better shot too.



Ooooops!
That'll cost me!

So I was thinking perhaps some sort of multi stage electrostatic filter might be a thing to look into for this ash problem that CavVet has.
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 1:19:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CavVet:
(Damn, hijacking my own thread...)

So if you ran a hybrid out of gas, would it stop alltogether?



yep. a hybrid car is an efficiency upgrade to an internal combustion engine, not some kind of super vehicle. now, hydrogen fuel cell cars - those are the new hotness that everyone makes hybrids out to be (besides their propensity to explode, but that's an engineering problem not a design flaw).
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 2:10:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Phil_in_Seattle:

Originally Posted By Tweak:
Originally Posted By R-32:
(but I dont plan on heading into any citys in a TEOTWAWKI situation).



That's where I'm headed, all the honey's will be there.



What sort of beer shall I loot stock for you Tweak?
quote]


LMFAO! Your timing Phil is impeccable!

When the mountain goes I'm just gonna kick back, crack open a cold beer and relax. I've got power, my own well, lots of woods, lots of food, beer and ammo. Bring it on Agallu!
Link Posted: 8/16/2003 11:28:36 PM EDT
Yup, I was on the roof the other day (we have cedar shakes) and there was ash still.....

About the air... one old and tried method. Oil bath air filter. For you "older" people, and those who work on "old cars/trucks/etc" know what I'm talking about. Some of the tractors and older trucks have them. You can run them for years w/ out cleaning.

How they work, to my understanding: The filter media/element sits on the carb/intake sytem. To parts. The bowl that holds the oil and then a "mesh that sits inside the oil. The suction of the engine pulls air throught the oil bath and mech, filtering stuff out. Big stuff settles in the oil and so does the little stuff. I have them on a 1950 GMC, 1948 Dodge, 1974 Ford (all med. duty trucks). The older tractors have them too. And you know how dust feilds are.

Unless give the order to leave, I'd stick it out.
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 3:55:05 AM EDT
I like the oil bath filter, kinda like my bong idea took a major real life advance...

I need to look into those a little and see if I can get a setup prepared..

Thanks Big K!

Q: Any clue what make and model I could find one that has a lot of intake ability? Thanks!
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 9:08:33 AM EDT
CavVet,

a quick google and I'm seeing references to oilbath filters used in CJ2s (how fitting that would be for you!), Volkswagen Type 2 transporters, 1957 Morris, 1967 F Series Ford trucks, in other words there are a lot of systems out there.

On complaint I did see raised was; " live in dusty country. The tractors, combines, pickups and cars in this part of the world ran with oil bath air cleaners for eons. Every so often a void will develope in the matting that is in the oil breather. This means the air can just bubble though that area unresticted. After a while, goodbye engine.

Face it, paper is better. Engine life is vastly improved since we switched to modern lubes and modern air cleaning.

Yes, under optimal circumstances, the oil bath works fine. But, you cannot verify that it is working fine, cause you cannot see it. The paper air filter can be visually checked. That, in itself, likely explains why paper is better."

To me that sounds like a good reason to look at using the oil bath as a primary filter and let your paper filter work on the air that has already been filtered once.
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 11:18:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Phil_in_Seattle:
To me that sounds like a good reason to look at using the oil bath as a primary filter and let your paper filter work on the air that has already been filtered once.



Exactly!


(and Thanks Phil, I did a google last night b4 posting, and I got totally different results. Weird!)
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 11:23:52 AM EDT

(and Thanks Phil, I did a google last night b4 posting, and I got totally different results. Weird!)


Google is as Google does (all depends on the exact search words you use)
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 2:36:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/17/2003 6:58:39 PM EDT by Boomer]

Originally Posted By Phil_in_Seattle:
CavVet,

a quick google and I'm seeing references to oilbath filters used in CJ2s (how fitting that would be for you





Yeah, heaven forbid it be suggested that CavVet get a real Jeep.

I know that the Jeep M38A1s and M170s that were used during the Vietnam war and into the 70s also used oil bath air filters. When I brought my CJ home for the first time, one of my neighbors, a Vietnam vet, came over telling me how it brought back a lot of memories for him (Do Liberty's ever evoke respect and wartime memories from veterans? ). He apparently was a doctor's driver in Vietnam and had to check the oil in the air filter of his Jeep quite often.

Although I was only 12 at the time, I don't remember any adverse effects on my parents' automobiles from the ash fallout from Mt St Helen's. They only drove when absolutely necessary, kept an eye on the air filter and general mechanical condition, and hosed the cars off to include the undercarriage every once in a while. Both of those cars ran just fine for years afterwards, to include for the subsequent owners. Personally, I'd just keep a few spare filters on hand, keep the vehicle cleaned off in general, and not sweat minimal and conscientious use of the automobile too much.

If one is attempting to escape the urban Seattle area in the event of a cataclysmic volcanic eruption, I'd think that you're probably already screwed and would be better just hunkering down where you already are. Look at what an inch of snow does to traffic and attitudes in this area and just imagine how many times that would be compounded by a similar amount of volcanic ash. But if you do plan on excessive driving through volcanic ash, you'd also better have a plan for protecting the breathers to your crankcase, axles, transmission, transfer case, etc and all the lubricated joints like driveshafts, u-joints, ball joints, etc. I imagine prolonged operation in ash can also be hard on the various seals throughout an automobile.
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 3:15:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Boomer:

Yeah, heaven forbid it be suggested that CavVet get a real Jeep.



Little trollfuck Boomer,

I wondered when you would open your piehole to troll yet another thread grace us with your wealth of knowledge...




I know that the Jeep M38A1s and M170s that were used during the Vietnam war and into the 70s also used oil bath air filters. When I brought my CJ home for the first time, one of my neighbors, a Vietnam vet, came over telling me how it brought back a lot of memories for him (Do Liberty's ever evoke respect and wartime memories from veterans? ). He apparently was a doctor's driver in Vietnam and had to check the oil in the air filter of his Jeep quite often.





If you are trying to tell me that the rusted out POS of yours made someone remember an Army Jeep (like I actually drove), and 'evoked respect', I dont know whos crazier, you or him...

Maybe he better call that Doctor and you guys go have a visit.


Although I was only 12 at the time,



Children should be seen and not heard. Respect your elders and go play in the street...



I don't remember any adverse affects on my parents' automobiles from the ash fallout from Mt St Helen's.


Well, ask around. There was an adverse affect.


They only drove when absolutely necessary,


Must have had a Jeep like yours...



and hosed the cars off to include the undercarriage every once in a while.



We are going out in an ash fallout to 'hose the car off', and we are going to crawl under it as well?





But if you do plan on excessive driving through volcanic ash, you'd also better have a plan for protecting the breathers to your crankcase, axles, transmission, transfer case, etc and all the lubricated joints like driveshafts, u-joints, ball joints, etc. I imagine prolonged operation in ash can also be hard on the various seals throughout an automobile.



Evidently polesmoker you didnt read my initial post in this thread in your constant zealous hunt to ride the great Liberty troll chase once again.

It was a simple two part question troll, dealing with things people who can remember the eruptions, and were driving in the shit recalled as immediate problems.

The first few times I met you I thought you were a bright guy, good job, had things in order. This constant Liberty OCD thing you have, that crosses at least 2 boards, leaves me thinking you have numerous serious issues.

Want a list?
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 4:05:48 PM EDT
CavVet, maybe you should try lightening up that chip on your shoulder or take a fistful of Prozac or something. I was only offering some advice and personal insight mixed with a little harmless ribbing (Just like I interpreted your "Jeep abuse" quip regarding my CJ from a few days ago). Don't take everything as a personal attack. Grow a sense of humor.

Between the two of us, only one has lived through an actual fallout of volcanic ash and the subsequent problems. I don't need to ask around about adverse effects because I was right there in the middle of it and saw for myself what really occurred. I simply shared some of my direct personal experiences and observations. You know, kind of a direct response to your two part question. It sounds like you are making such an event into a bigger problem that it really is. How much driving do you think you are really going to have to or even be able to do under such conditions? If you're that worried about mobility, get a bicycle.

If you'd like to come over and personally belittle my neighbor the Vietnam combat veteran and his opinions about Jeeps, feel free to do so. Personally, I thought you would be way above that, but I guess you just never know...

And by the way, yes, most people can squat down and point a hose up under their cars with a fair degree of ease. No need to crawl around on the ground.

As for who has issues, you're beginning to sound like you have a whole subscription.


Link Posted: 8/17/2003 4:53:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 6:38:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER:
You two play nice.



But mom, HE started it!
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