Posted: 4/2/2005 2:32:21 PM EDT
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ok my sherifil will not sign off on my class 3 paper work for a silencer, i would like to know how much goes into starting a corporation up so i can avoid the headach of a cleo signature any other sugestions would be appreciated thanks |
| You might be able to get someone else to sign off depending on where you live.... I live in a pittsburgh suburb (Allegheny County, however) and had my local chief of police sign off on an uzi. But if you have to form a company, I recommend forming an LLC (limited liabilility company) rather than a corporation. It will cost you $125 for application fees, and you will have to file a tax return for the LLC each year. If you want/need help, I can help you out for a small fee (my wife and I are attorneys). We can assemble the documents and review them before you send them in. Email me through this website if you are interested. |
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Had the same problem here in Bucks County, police chief refused to sign off. I simply went over his head. Went to the courthouse, and had the sheriff sign. All he asked for was to see my ccw. He never even bothered to look at what C3 item I was purchasing. Someone more informed should be here shortly with more info. But it does not have to be your local PD chief that signs for you. Either way...good luck! |
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Have you tried using the threat of acquisition by other legal means (going corporate) as leverage against the sheriff? Many CLEO's who won't sign-off are under the mistaken idea that you need their signature to acquire an NFA weapon. Once you make them aware you are only asking as a courtesy and can legally acquire any NFA weapons you want without their approval or knowledge, they may change their tune. |
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You can create an LLC online in PA at this link: www.paopen4business.state.pa.us/paofb/CWP/view.asp?A=3&QUESTION_ID=440583 Takes about 15 minutes and the fee is $125. You can get an EIN on the phone from the IRS in about 5 minutes, and then all you have to do is advertise in your local Bar Assn newletter and a local paper, and you're good to go. |
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The following excerpt is taken from a thread over on uzitalk. The author provides some good info, especially the part about writing your CLEO (who refuses to sign) and requesting that he refuse in writing so the ATF can designate someone else (such as state police, criminal court judge) to sign off on your form four. Also, I read on Bardwell's website that if you cannot get a signature from anyone (that is, you approach everyone on the ATF "approved" list and NO ONE will sign), there is a federal procedure for bypassing the signature requirement. However, you must exhaust all other options before you can bypass the CLEO signoff. Anyway, here is the quote: "I had a CLEO refuse to sign. He wouldn't even sign for his own officers - something I had been told multiple times. So I asked him politely to do so in writing and told him why. I would need to have the ATF designate another party to sign. I wanted him to know that I was going to obtain these items within the law and that his decision was unfortunate, but would not effect the ultimate outcome. In his case, it was all about his political ambitions so he didn't care that I would ultimately succeed in legally obtaining NFA items. When his term came to an end, I worked within the political system to get the party to dump support for his reelection (he was the sheriff). There were other issues that took down his support, but he had no friends in the second amendment community when he needed them. There have been two sheriffs since and both of them sign. Both of them have enjoyed my time and money to support their nominations to the primary ballot and their primary and general elections. Rumor has it that the JTTF (Joint Terrorism Task Force) has asked CLEOs to take a close look at who they sign for. This is shit since everyone with a brain knows that a terrorist would be a fcking idiot to steal or otherwise obtain a registered NFA firearm with all the concentrated attention that would create. Remember the North Hollywood bank robbery years back? Were those MGs registered? Of course not. Personally, I have no problem with a CLEO doing due dillgence on a first time buyer. He is taking a political gamble by signing for you and you should thank him for doing so. In a perfect world, this signoff would be deemed a violation of the 2nd, but we have to live within the laws as they are interpreted by the courts. Be sure to point out that some of his investigation will be duplicative of the BG check the FBI does each and every time. Regarding suppressors, I told the investigator who asked, that I prefer to shoot without hearing protection for better situational awareness and to avoid attracting a crowd when I shoot FA in the mountains. I also point out that these devices are not treated the same in Europe. In France, they are over-the-counter and in the UK, when firearms were legal, suppressors were no big deal. You can still get them for shotguns as that encourages range noise mitigation. The Finns use them for hunting and range use and they are legal to own in Germany. ... Try the above arguements and if all else fails, go the corporate route. Make sure that he knows that you do not wish to go that route. It's just a option if you are forced to and then he is no longer "in the loop". Remember, you are partnering with LE as a responsible collector. They have nothing to worry about with you or anyone else who has run the NFA gauntlet. You are one of the good guys. There has been very little crime commited by NFA owners in the 70+ years these laws have been on the books - certainly a much lower rate of criminal behavior than by officers of the law. Remind him that the CLEO cert is not an endorsement or approval of your ownership of collectible NFA items. It is simply a statement by LE that they have no undocumented issues with you that is not in the LE database the FBI uses. By refusing to cooperate, they are not assisting the feds in doing the BG check. Good luck." |
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I live in Allegheny County, too. I didn't even try the Sheriff's Office, I went straight to my local police chief. It was hard to get ahold of him (I started trying right in the middle of a string of days when he was on vacation and then injured). No fault of his own, mind you. Once he was back in the saddle, he signed my forms the same day. We had a small chat, and yeah, I felt intimidated because I didn't want to come off like a nutball. He seemed like a geniunely good guy. His office hadn't seen many Form 1's. He signed off, and one of his officers took some time to print me. Good deal. Try your local chief. Put your request in writing, covering these points: 1. You appreciate their time. 2. You're planning to build/buy X, which is legal in PA, but the federal government requires some paperwork, photos, and fingerprints. Part of the paperwork includes CLEO acknowledgement. 3. Their signature does NOT constitute approval and only acknowledges that a) you live in their jurisdiction and b) you are not a known felon or 'undesireable.' 4. Feel free to call at any time with questions, or the local ATF office at ___, for more information/verification of procedure. Dress business casual, and head down to drop off your packet in person. Explain briefly, ask if you might speak to the chief in person, etc. If he doesn't have time to talk to you, that's fine, just drop off the packet and ask to have him take a look for you. Be polite and civil. Do not use the word 'gat.' |
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great info i grew up in ross, but befor i left for iraq, i was living in the city, when i return, i want to move back into the north hills area, ross, mccandles in general anybody have any specific suburbs that the cleo is willing to sign, defazio is crooked and should be kicked out of office tracker45 email coming |
That's good to know as a P22 and suppressor combo are on my wishlist. |
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There are so many different people who can sign off a Form 4 that I could not begin to remember them all. Chief Law Enforcement Office, CLEO, can be… Chief of Police County Sheriff District Attorney (?) To mention the first three on the top of my head. On the Back of your Form 4 is the entire list of who Can Sign. You know, this is one of the few areas where Maryland has us beat. Their State Police preempts any local Sheriff or any tin horn wannabe who can infringe upon us. Bring the Form to the State Police and they take care of the rest. I don’t know how long it takes them down there, but when I read a Thread like this I remember how that Blue State has us hanging our collective heads. 
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Let me know when you return. I live in McCandless. I HEARD-repeat- HEARD that the State Police sign off with NO hassles. IM me. I know a McCandless cop I can ask on the sly what the CLEO is like. |
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Thr form four application lists the following individuals as persons who can provide the law enforcment certification: 1. the chief of police for the transferee's (you) city or town of residence 2. the sheriff for the transferee's county of residence 3. the head of the state police 4. a state or local district attorney or prosecutor having juridsdiction in the transferee's area of residence, or another person whose certification is acceptable to the Director of the BATFE 5. if the chief of police or sheriff delegates authority to someone else to sign on his/her behalf, "this fact must be noted by printing the Chief's, Sheriff's, or other authorized official's name and title, followed by the word 'by' and the full signature and title of the delegated person." |
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sent it to the state police and they kicked it back down to the sherifs department so its a no go with the state police, in addition, following up with the state police is next to imposible, no body knew who recieved it, what the status was and were not aware of what the pourpose of the forms were, after abotu three weeks of constantly checking up with them, i recieved it back from the sharifs office stating that the sherif will not sign, so unless your a donating big wig dem its not going to happen in the city of pittsburgh through these two authorities, im im going to go the LLC route just because dealing with law enforcment has allways been more of a burdon than it turns out to be worth. ill be in mid may for a couple weeks and will be looking to test out some new gear i recieved so if your more than welcome to join me |
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Cool, I'm in for the demo. Maybe I can introduce you to my SOT then- you should see his toys. BTW, I spoke to the SOT today and found out about the examiners. I am going to assemble the forms tomorrow, and I will send you an instant message soon asking for certain info you will need to set up the LLC. Good luck and stay safe over there. |