[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Pima SWAT incident (Page 1 of 4)
Posted: 5/16/2011 7:31:45 AM EDT
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Was there already a discussion on this? I didn't see it.
http://www.kgun9.com/story/14621212/marine-killed-by-swat-was-acting-in-defense-says-family?config=H264 Is SWAT's normal MO to open up on anything with a firearm whether it's shooting ot not? It just occurs to me that if gunmen break into your house and they are cartel (maybe intending to hit the section 8 house City of Tucson so graciously installed next door in your otherwise nice neighborhood) and you don't defend yourself you're dead, But if you DO (or are prepared to) defend yourself and it happens to be SWAT (possibly also at the wrong address) you're just as dead. That's an unhappy equation either way. |
| Perhaps my real question in general is, for those likely to be armed while investigating a possible break-in, is there anything one can do to improve their odds of survival if they discover it was actually law enforcement (correctly or incorrectly) forcing entry? Tough situation. Myself, I have no reason for law enforcement to visit by such a means so I would generally not presume a break-in was law enforcement. |
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I don't know who's fault this is and I'm not pointing fingers. But I say the same thing in every type of these threads: You need to fortify your house the best you can and make it as hard as possible for any type of intruder to get into your house. So you can be fully awake gun in hand and have your family calling the police. If it is swat then at least you called the police and they can tell you who it is in time hopefully so you can ditch the weapon and lay down on the ground and hope for a peaceful outcome. Its possible but you will most likely not get shot by swat if you are on your knees with your hands above you head. Don't do that of course until you have for sure found out that it is police entering your home. Two dogs help a lot! and they are fun to have around and cheap to have. I know if someone is within 100 feet of my house sometimes farther out. My dogs start going nuts. The second you know you have home intruders you need to get away from windows and get into the back of a room and aim at the doorway the intruders are most likely to enter from and have your gun trained at the door. If at all possible call the police at this point. I don't think its a good idea to go out away from your "safe room" and track them down except for a very few situations. Your material things aren't that important and the police will be there in 10 minutes, and hypothetically if the sucker walks into the room you are in then you have the upper hand and you can shoot him. In the .mil we call doorways the "fatal funnel" because when you enter a door frame everyone in the room knows where you are but you don't know where everyone else in the room is. Thats why staying in a room and aiming at a door will give you the upper hand. |
| This topic has been beat to death in GD. Until more information comes out about why the SWAT team was called out to serve a warrant to that and 3 other houses nearby, we'll never know what was going on. Although in looking at the information that has been given out, I wonder what the majority of us would have done different? Wife wakes you up from a sound sleep saying people are outside with guns. Secure the wife and kids in the closet. Grab your rifle and go the the most likely entry point (front door). Get behind cover and wait. When the cops come in, recognize they are friendly and put safety back on. What would you have done different? Now, this is on the notion that you've done nothing to have the cops at your house for any reason already. How to justify 71 rounds fired in 7 seconds is gonna be interesting to watch. If the guy was clean and this is another wrong address or poor intel situation, I hope she sues the county for all it's worth. If the dude was dirty.....good shoot. |
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Quoted:When the cops come in, recognize they are friendly and put safety back on. What would you have done different?
That's what's bothering me. I'm not sure i'd have responded differently assuming there were no sirens/ lights/ PA announcements to alert me it was LE. So I'm trying to envision what else could be done. Best I've heard is make sure it takes a good while for someone to enter and call the cops. Not sure what else can be done short of lay flat and hope they stop shooting before inflicting more damage than can be sewn up.. |
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Quoted:When the cops come in, recognize they are friendly and put safety back on. What would you have done different?
That's what's bothering me. I'm not sure i'd have responded differently assuming there were no sirens/ lights/ PA announcements to alert me it was LE. So I'm trying to envision what else could be done. Best I've heard is make sure it takes a good while for someone to enter and call the cops. Not sure what else can be done short of lay flat and hope they stop shooting before inflicting more damage than can be sewn up.. I would assume there wasn't a lot of "standoff" time where the guy could have identified the entrants as LE and put the rifle down. I imagine that if I was a member in the breaching team and the first guy in the stack, that the second I would have come through the door and saw somebody with a rifle trained on me would be the split second that I would react in my own best interests. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted:When the cops come in, recognize they are friendly and put safety back on. What would you have done different? That's what's bothering me. I'm not sure i'd have responded differently assuming there were no sirens/ lights/ PA announcements to alert me it was LE. So I'm trying to envision what else could be done. Best I've heard is make sure it takes a good while for someone to enter and call the cops. Not sure what else can be done short of lay flat and hope they stop shooting before inflicting more damage than can be sewn up.. I would assume there wasn't a lot of "standoff" time where the guy could have identified the entrants as LE and put the rifle down. I imagine that if I was a member in the breaching team and the first guy in the stack, that the second I would have come through the door and saw somebody with a rifle trained on me would be the split second that I would react in my own best interests. Exactly. Which is why this is such a fucked up situation. The homeowner put his gun on safety and disengaged, but its a dark house and the point man on the swat team sees some crazy guy with a rifle pointed at his face, he also wants to go home to his wife and kids. One of the main reasons why no-knocks are such a horrible fucking idea. Especially situations like this. They weren't raiding a crack house they were raiding a private residence of a veteran. The guy who ordered the raid is the one who should have his nuts chopped off, if it turns out they were in the wrong which were not sure if it will turn out that way yet. I can't imagine a reason to do a no-knock on a private residence like that unless you have seen 10 guys heavily armed enter the house before hand or something which they clearly didn't in this case. If they had been watching the house correctly they would have seen a mother a father and a young child enter the residence. Definitely not the situation you use a no-knock in. Two uniformed officers and a drug dog in the middle of the day when the veteran was at work would have been sufficient. No one would have been hurt and they would have found out if they had drugs in the house. |
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here is what concerns me....
Call records from Drexel Heights Fire rescue say an ambulance was on the way at 9:43am. It arrived just two minutes later. But the ambulance crew was told to wait outside. Law enforcement usually holds back medical crews to be sure they're not walking into danger. The Drexel Heights crew waited until 10:59, then heard Code 900. The radio call that means they were no longer needed. The man was dead. They had waited an hour and fourteen minutes. Compare that to the chaos of the January 8th mass shooting. Even with a large open area to secure, medical crews only waited 12 minutes to be allowed in. What are they hiding.... why would it take more than an hour to secure the home to make it safe for paramedics. Source:http://www.kgun9.com/story/14637848/pima-swat-team-likely-had-highly-trained-medics-at-fatal-shooting |
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The woman was looking out the window and didn't see the flashing lights  Well, just to play devils advocate.... Which window? Facing the street? Where were the flashing lights? In the street? Where there even any flashing lights? If so it was daylight so unless she was looking at them there was likely not much reflection off the surrounding houses. Where there any sirens? PCSO says yes, she and at least one neighbor say no, at least not prior to the gunfire. How was the "man with gun" she saw dressed? Regular uniform? SWAT attire? SWAT attire w/ subdued patches? (if any?) Did she hang out at the window to take in the whole scene or did she panic and get tunnel vision like most folks are likely to do? This is going to be ruled a good shoot, even if the info that lead to the warrant was bad it will be ruled a justified shoot..... One of our board members posted in the GD thread that the guy and his family are dirty and that when the facts come out PCSO will be exonerated. As it stands now, all the info is sealed and PCSO is not talking......anymore. IMO it would be best to film these planned uses of force. |
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Want my answer? (don't say it `rizz) Live underground in a fallout shelter......   Think of the money you would save on sunscreen. 
And these things should be taped somehow. No knock with no lights? The Marine played his hand with the info he had and it ended badly for him; that's bullshit and frankly that's actually scary. If there were lights and a knock like PCSO says, I'm calling bullshit on the family and saying they were involved in whatever the PCSO was trying to shut down. Either way, I need more facts before I get all crazy and start a riot about this. I'm grateful to all who have served, and especially those who have deployed. That said, I knew plenty of douchebags in the military, deployed or not, who definitely came home to a life of bad things. |
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Haven't you guys heard? According to the Indiana Supreme Court, coming to a Supreme Court near you soon, you cannot defend yourself in the case of an ILLEGAL Police search. Good luck with a "legal" search.
Sheriff Dupnick should have been so intense with the punk that shot Gabby Giffords! Sorry, don't want to remember his name. |
| I have laid awake at night wondering what would I do if a home invasion occurred. I'd like to think I would have as much time as this guy did and do the same things. That said, has noone (except me) ever gave thought to the cops busting in your house at 3AM on bad intel or a wrong address and you go and grab your (insert weapon of choice here) and point thinking it was some punk kids breaking in? And I'm with others here, why did it have to happen that way? Why not spend 1 day doing a little intel gathering on work, school etc. habits and then walk to the door while the husband is at work? This whole thing stinks. |
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I have laid awake at night wondering what would I do if a home invasion occurred. I'd like to think I would have as much time as this guy did and do the same things. That said, has noone (except me) ever gave thought to the cops busting in your house at 3AM on bad intel or a wrong address and you go and grab your (insert weapon of choice here) and point thinking it was some punk kids breaking in? And I'm with others here, why did it have to happen that way? Why not spend 1 day doing a little intel gathering on work, school etc. habits and then walk to the door while the husband is at work? This whole thing stinks. This. Kicking down a door in the middle of the night is about the stupidest shit ever 
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I have laid awake at night wondering what would I do if a home invasion occurred. I'd like to think I would have as much time as this guy did and do the same things. That said, has noone (except me) ever gave thought to the cops busting in your house at 3AM on bad intel or a wrong address and you go and grab your (insert weapon of choice here) and point thinking it was some punk kids breaking in? And I'm with others here, why did it have to happen that way? Why not spend 1 day doing a little intel gathering on work, school etc. habits and then walk to the door while the husband is at work? This whole thing stinks. This. Kicking down a door in the middle of the night is about the stupidest shit ever +1 They spend plenty of time gathering intel on a house etc, send two unmarked vehicles (2-4 cops) to follow and nab the person between errands. You don't have to guess where he is, worry about what's he carrying/armed with, no booby traps, can't destroy much evidence, etc. Seems a lot safer to me. ETA: They get out of the vehicle, you get out of the vehicle, plain clothes, walk up to them, say excuse me you're under arrest or we're detaining you to do a search, slap the cuffs on, pat them down, haul em off to jail if it's called for. Go into their house do your search. |
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I have laid awake at night wondering what would I do if a home invasion occurred. I'd like to think I would have as much time as this guy did and do the same things. That said, has noone (except me) ever gave thought to the cops busting in your house at 3AM on bad intel or a wrong address and you go and grab your (insert weapon of choice here) and point thinking it was some punk kids breaking in? And I'm with others here, why did it have to happen that way? Why not spend 1 day doing a little intel gathering on work, school etc. habits and then walk to the door while the husband is at work? This whole thing stinks. In the process of securing my home I've put bars on the windows, stout doors in place, lights, audio alerts on door / window openings, and identified a plausable cover point that attackers would have to approach through a narrow hallway. I would put the odds of anyone ever doing a home invasion as "highly unlikely", but as I've said, the city placed a section 8 house right next to mine, and it attracts the wrong kind of people/attention and has even been assaulted in the past (thanks for ruining the neighborhood CoT), so I can't count the odds as "remote". I prepared myself for greeting a crash in the night ready with a light on my saiga 12 from my end of the hallway. So I look at this case and consider that presuming no advance warning to allow me to safe up for authorities, I imagine I'd end up the same in the hallway with paramedics tapping their feet outside waiting for the scene "to be secured" while folks pat themselves on the back saying "good shoot, good shoot". (That may not be the ultimate faact in this case but it's happened elsewhere more than once to the wrong house). The possiblity of that happening when I'm just trying to keep my family safe really bothers me. I'd like to know if LEO members and leadership keep that in mind when deciding to charge into a house. |
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So, now we need to barricade our houses from both 'legal' and illegal entities...what has this country come to? In Indiana, it has been adjudicated to be illegal to resist illegal law enforcement entry and action in your own house...coming to a state near you.
What do we really know about the Pima County Sheriffs SWAT encounter, that it took 71 rounds to murder a man that did not shoot back...I'm really tire of this perceived threat, so they can shoot first excuse. You enter a person's house by force, contrived to be legal or not, you should expect a fight on what ever terms the occupant dictates. Stop making excuses or reasoning away on this, they could simply waited him out if they wanted too since they claim they were serving a 'conspiracy' warrant. |
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Lets say 5 guys in a stack enter a house and see a guy with a gun pointed at them. 1 guy with an AR-15, the rest with Glock .40s. They lay down supressing fire and back out. They are on the trigger maybe 5 seconds...............71 rounds and 9 hit the guy. Maybe some fire discipline issues, but the dynamic of the situation cannot be couch quarterbacked.
Since multiple warrants were served that day, it is no secret how they were served. It was 9AM. It was fucking daylight. No doors kicked in the middle of the night. They had an armored police vehicle with lights and siren. They announced in english and spanish. The residents knew they were cops. This is a huge investigation and it is very complicated. Much of the court info is sealed because the investigation is ongoing. This is probably why they are being tight lipped about the whole thing. Mike Storie leaked a lot of info in his press conference, but I did not see it yet. Compelling evidence was collected on the scene. Lots of stupid in the GD thread. Just wait, the truth will come out. |
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So just for the fun of it I decided to watch the local news tonight (Fox 11) and they were talking about this incident. The SWAT team’s attorney stated that the SWAT team found body armor “assault rifles” and a “piece” of a police uniform after the shooting. All of which they expected to find in the home of someone who was part of a home invasion ring.
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http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/article_54486592-8257-11e0-950b-001cc4c002e0.html
Interesting snippets IMO No arrests have been made from any of the other homes where SWAT served search warrants, Storie said
If SWAT members had been let in to the home, those inside “probably they wouldn’t have been arrested,” Storie said.
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| Wow the media is really trying to make it sound like over kill with the 71 shots with 60 hits. The breacher (first guy through the door) is armed with a shotgun I doubt all five officers fired through a single doorway Im bettin the breacher and a second team member who likely was armed with a carbine were the only shooters. So im figuring 2 or 3 rounds from the shotgun and a couple bursts from the carbine... The media wants you to believe all five swat members dumped their mags into this 1 guy..... |
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http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/article_54486592-8257-11e0-950b-001cc4c002e0.html Interesting snippets IMO No arrests have been made from any of the other homes where SWAT served search warrants, Storie said
If SWAT members had been let in to the home, those inside “probably they wouldn’t have been arrested,” Storie said.
Thanks for the link. I thought this interesting also. All five SWAT members were shooting from just outside the home and never entered the house, Storie said.
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This is just the by product of living in a police state, you live in fear of either the bad guys or the police will break into your home in the middle of the night and kill you. At least with the bad guys, you have a decent chance of surviving the encounter vs. a well equipped SWAT team.
http://www.techdirt.com/blog/wireless/articles/20110425/11220014028/swat-team-raids-home-because-guy-had-open-wireless-router.shtml Used to be two plain clothes cops would just stake out your house and arrest you when you went outside to get the paper or go to work. But how can you justify a big budget doing that. |
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This is just the by product of living in a police state, you live in fear of either the bad guys or the police will break into your home in the middle of the night and kill you. At least with the bad guys, you have a decent chance of surviving the encounter vs. a well equipped SWAT team. http://www.techdirt.com/blog/wireless/articles/20110425/11220014028/swat-team-raids-home-because-guy-had-open-wireless-router.shtml Used to be two plain clothes cops would just stake out your house and arrest you when you went outside to get the paper or go to work. But how can you justify a big budget doing that. I agree. Just a way around the Posse Comitatus Act. |
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So just for the fun of it I decided to watch the local news tonight (Fox 11) and they were talking about this incident. The SWAT team’s attorney stated that the SWAT team found body armor “assault rifles” and a “piece” of a police uniform after the shooting. All of which they expected to find in the home of someone who was part of a home invasion ring. I read that same thing this mornings paper. All I could think of was....of course they did. The man was a Marine with 2 deployments under his belt. I'd be willing to bet he has his IBA in a bag somewhere. I took a trip to Iraq in 04 and I still have mine and all the other crap I carried there. As for the assault rifle....didn't we already know he had an AR? Most military guys have a "thing" for the weapons they carried in combat and guns in general. The piece of a LEO uniform...is this a patch or some other little thing? I'm sure it would be everywhere if a whole uniform was discovered. And please.....a painting under a bed? Are you now guilty of drug smuggling because of your taste in art?? Something isn't adding up....... |
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Wow the media is really trying to make it sound like over kill with the 71 shots with 60 hits. The breacher (first guy through the door) is armed with a shotgun I doubt all five officers fired through a single doorway Im bettin the breacher and a second team member who likely was armed with a carbine were the only shooters. So im figuring 2 or 3 rounds from the shotgun and a couple bursts from the carbine... The media wants you to believe all five swat members dumped their mags into this 1 guy..... Actual PCSO helmet cam footage I came across this today........ |
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Wow the media is really trying to make it sound like over kill with the 71 shots with 60 hits. The breacher (first guy through the door) is armed with a shotgun I doubt all five officers fired through a single doorway Im bettin the breacher and a second team member who likely was armed with a carbine were the only shooters. So im figuring 2 or 3 rounds from the shotgun and a couple bursts from the carbine... The media wants you to believe all five swat members dumped their mags into this 1 guy..... Actual PCSO helmet cam footage I came across this today........
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Well you can certainly hear the siren and hear the announcements of "Police! Search Warrant! Open the Door!", with about 30 seconds from siren to entry. Kind of wonder what the significance of someone saying "bang bang bang" is at 18 sec. If one were awake and listening, there should have been warning enough to at least throw down a weapon before entry, of course there's the question of this fellow having been asleep. You'd hope your wife would give you intel enough to alert you they might be cops. Then there's the gamble that the people at the door are in fact police and not home invaders posing as police, which supposedly this neighborhood is known for according to the story given to the media .
Want to see more evidence, but this seems to undermine the "no warning" story of some of the residents. Also if there is concern about “an assault rifle powerful enough to pierce their body armor.”, I'd have to ask why SWAT entry teams aren't wearing at least Level III (Assuming Craig Smith of Kgun 9 isn't making things up: SWAT raid: what the 911 tapes reveal about the medical delay (which might be a fair question, given media's propensity to throw that saw around))? Nevertheless, with the warning given, I don't think I could blame an officer for assuming anyone still holding a rifle in their direction was hostile. I still question the wisdom/necessity for performing a forced entry in the first place, but let the details come out. |
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So are we all still happy with our "war on drugs"?
Does the hope of reducing drug use (FAIL) over ride the lives of those lost in this war (including this guy)? Have we really reduced drug use? Maybe, just maybe we should rethink our entire stance on drug enforcement laws? 
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Wow the media is really trying to make it sound like over kill with the 71 shots with 60 hits. The breacher (first guy through the door) is armed with a shotgun I doubt all five officers fired through a single doorway Im bettin the breacher and a second team member who likely was armed with a carbine were the only shooters. So im figuring 2 or 3 rounds from the shotgun and a couple bursts from the carbine... The media wants you to believe all five swat members dumped their mags into this 1 guy..... Actual PCSO helmet cam footage I came across this today........
Yea, I'm no expert but that looked like a gong-show of an entry compared to quite a few I have seen. The guy with the shield was back from the door with guys in front of him. They had that huge window to the left nobody seemed to be paying attention to. I think they could have rammed the door standing on the other side to at least get behind the little bit of wall to the left of the door than still be in the doorway view along the garage and getting out of the way of the guys with weapons at the ready. Again, a flash-bang could easily have been deployed. Honestly it seemed to be a hurp-durp attitude just MHO. |
| Flash bang / tear gas and some sort of decent announcement. I'm sure they were wanting the element of surprise as they were looking for drug related items but this could've been avoided with a decent announcement / negotiation team and a flash bang through the side window. |
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Yea... I watched the video a few times... I'd say it's pretty damming for the SWAT team. the "siren" does not indicate police and if you look at the last few shots fired particularity the last one I get the feeling that the last cop was thinking "ooo i want to get in on this". It does not look organized.
Richard |
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Well you can certainly hear the siren and hear the announcements of "Police! Search Warrant! Open the Door!", with about 30 seconds from siren to entry. Kind of wonder what the significance of someone saying "bang bang bang" is at 18 sec. If one were awake and listening, there should have been warning enough to at least throw down a weapon before entry, of course there's the question of this fellow having been asleep. You'd hope your wife would give you intel enough to alert you they might be cops. Then there's the gamble that the people at the door are in fact police and not home invaders posing as police, which supposedly this neighborhood is known for according to the story given to the media .
Want to see more evidence, but this seems to undermine the "no warning" story of some of the residents. Also if there is concern about “an assault rifle powerful enough to pierce their body armor.”, I'd have to ask why SWAT entry teams aren't wearing at least Level III (Assuming Craig Smith of Kgun 9 isn't making things up: SWAT raid: what the 911 tapes reveal about the medical delay (which might be a fair question, given media's propensity to throw that saw around))? Nevertheless, with the warning given, I don't think I could blame an officer for assuming anyone still holding a rifle in their direction was hostile. I still question the wisdom/necessity for performing a forced entry in the first place, but let the details come out. It ALSO shows the Sheriffs office is lieing when they said they ran the siren for 45 seconds...... among other things. |
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...if you look at the last few shots fired particularity the last one I get the feeling that the last cop was thinking "ooo i want to get in on this". It does not look organized. Richard Yea that caught my attention too... I'm thinking "how can this guy have gotten a good sight picture and known for sure what he was shooting at, it looks like he's just throwing some rounds in there" Quoted:
It ALSO shows the Sheriffs office is lying when they said they ran the siren for 45 seconds...... among other things. The completely unprofessional image of Dupnik after the Loughner making baseless and false assertions starts to hang also to the entire office with the completely jumbled sets of stories and errors offered to the public. It starts to look like a joke no one can laugh at. Especially considering the challenges of proximity to border crime and violence, Pima can not afford incompetency and unprofessionalism out of it's sheriff's office. |