Posted: 11/20/2007 1:41:09 PM EDT
| Can someone please explain how Mike Tyson get 1 day in jail for his drug and DUI ,and Warren Jeffs gets 10 years for preforming a wedding cerimoney ? I a'm not a mormon but this strikes me as very strange and excessive . is it me or what, 10 years seams like a long time to me . |
I dunno...performing a wedding ceremony forcing a 14 year old girl to get married under the possible threat of excommunication, shunning and going to hell (i.e. coercion) or some adult dipshit who was DUI where nobody got hurt. Seems pretty straightforward to me. |
Neither is Warren Jeffs. |
| The guy sexually and psychologically abused women and kids... he stole a shitload of money from his "followers" and is just a general scumbag. I think they should all get hard labor in Sherrif Joe's Jail. On top of that, what about the bullshit with that Hilton biotch? That's even worse. Guess if you have money and some fame, anythings possible. |
| So the guy was the head of a religon most of us don't like and some consider a cult , and he is probably a creep (like so many other religous leaders). So her mom and dad get a pass on this. why the hell aren't they responsible for thier daughters welfare ? the fact is our gov wanted to get rid of him and his church plain and simple . they want to made an example of him to discurage anyone else. so we have religous freedom granted by the constitution for some religons but not others . again I'm not a Mormon and a'm not plaining on being one ,my concern is the constitution and the rights it grants us. if you research this you will find that our gov forced them to change the religion in 1873 I believe ,and not all of the mormons went with the new church. some regard this as no big deal ,I worry about what they will take away next . I remember how they snuck in the patriot's act on us . anyway you look at ,it if me or you had Iron Mike's record and got busted drunk in our car with drugs we would get a hell of a lot longer than 1 day . we live in a brave new world that can amaze and confuse all at the same time. |
And AGAIN, Neither is Warren Jeffs! He's FLDS, not LDS, that's like calling Protestants Catholic. |
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The government technically has no powers give to it by the Constitution to regulate drugs, but it does. Freedom of religious practices is one thing. Plural marriages, freely entered into by consenting adults, could be argued to be part of one's religion. For all my libertarian leanings, I am hard-pressed to argue the same of coercing a 14 year old into a marriage. Subjugation of other humans is wrong. What Jeffs did is just that. I think the parents should be held accountable, too, but one could make a slight argument that they, too, were under duress, with the threat of excommunication and "hell" being held over their heads. Remember, it used to be legal to own slaves. What if someone had a religion that said owning slaves was part of it? Would owning slave be OK then, or is there some aspect of morality that perhaps would indicate that this was wrong? Kind of like forcing a 14 year old into marriage. Good thing you never plan on "becoming a Mormon" or joining the Fundamentalist sect/cult/whatever, so you'll never have to put your daughter to the test. Finally
The Constitution grants us no rights. None. You need to do some studying if you do not understand that statement. |
| his beliefs are that of the Original Mormon church B4 the US gov made the LDS change is my point , I have no use for that POS Warren Jeffs or his followers . I a'm at odds with the forced changeing of a religion and the molesting of the Consttution . and how are her parents not to blame and not punished ? are we all not equal under the law ? if I a'm incorect on any of this (Mr. Joeseph Smith's original version of the Mormon religion ) forgive my ignorance on this subject but it is as I have understood it after reading up on it years ago. It was not my intension to offend the LDS church in any way . My point is why is justice not fair and equal for us all ? |
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Four Major Periods of Mormon Polygamy Mormonism, like many Protestant churches, began as a restorationist movement, which is to say that it was dedicated to “restoring” everything in the Bible. Joseph Smith, Jr., Mormonism’s founding prophet, felt especially close to the Old Testament, so he believed his mission was to restore Old as well as New Testament traditions such as the authority of prophets, temple rituals, and the ancient Semitic custom of plural marriage. Midwestern Origins According to Mosiah Hancock, whose father, Levi, reportedly performed a plural marriage for the Mormon prophet, the first of these unions occurred in Ohio in 1833 when Joseph married sixteen-year-old Fanny Alger. Smith’s next marriage, or “sealing” according to Mormon terminology, may have occurred in 1838 in Missouri, but the great majority of his thirty-three well documented marriages, give or take a few because formal records were not always kept, occurred in 1841-44 in Nauvoo, Illinois. There he combined restorationist biblical polygamy with the idea that one gained a higher status in the next life based on the quantity of wives and offspring in this life. This gave the religious rationale for large plural families in later Mormonism. Thus, polygamy—called “celestial” (meaning heavenly) or “patriarchal” marriage after the polygamous patriarchs of the Old Testament such as Abraham and Jacob—was accepted as necessary for “exaltation,” the highest salvation in the Mormon heaven. Present-day Mormons generally accept that eternal monogamous marriage is sufficient for exaltation but also still anticipate that there will be polygamy in heaven. Joseph Smith experimented with polyandry, as well, by marrying eleven women who were already civilly married to other men. With very few exceptions, such as the practice of marrying older women in order to provide for them or to form an alliance in the next life, polygamy was oriented toward childbearing. For instance, Brigham Young had about fifty-six wives, many of whom maintained a platonic relationship with him; but he also had fifty-six children by nineteen of his connubial wives. His predecessor, Joseph Smith, never lived openly (“cohabitated”) with any of his plural wives, though some of them later confirmed that the union was sexual in nature. When Joseph Smith introduced polygamy as a religious necessity to his closest followers, some regarded it with Puritanical horror, while others accepted it and soon acquired large plural families of their own. The Practice in Utah During Smith’s lifetime, polygamy in Nauvoo and elsewhere was kept secret because it was also illegal. However, after Smith’s death, during the Mormon exodus to Utah, and in frontier Utah, the era of “open” plural marriage began and Mormons experienced the nuts and bolts of daily life in large plural families. The results were various. One finds many inspiring stories of women and men who struggled against great challenges to make the ancient Semitic custom work in modern America. On the other hand, there are stories of polygamous husbands giving greater attention and financial assistance to favored wives, while less favored wives had a difficult time surviving financially and emotionally. Even in the best of plural marriages, a woman had only limited access to her husband’s time, resources, and emotional attention. To compensate, plural wives often developed especially close relationships with their children to make up for often distant husbands. Despite such problems, polygamy was regarded almost as the most central, highest revelation to Joseph Smith and a necessary prerequisite for complete salvation. It was widely accepted as a divinely inspired concept by church members, male and female. However, plural marriage was more widely practiced among the elite than among the church’s rank and file, a good number of the latter remaining monogamous. One myth about Mormon polygamy was that only about 2 or 3 percent of the church membership ever practiced polygamy. Actually, something like 20 or 30 percent of Latter-day Saints engaged in the practice depending on the statistical strategy one employs. The motives for practicing polygamy, while primarily religious, also allowed for parallel objectives. Sometimes two prominent Mormon leaders cemented a friendship by one giving another his daughter (polygamy allowing such dynastic alliances to a greater degree than in monogamy). Sometimes polygamist men married widows or unmarried women to provide for them economically. Sometimes a man and a prospective plural wife felt a strong spiritual or emotional attraction. One lingering myth of polygamy was that it was practiced by lustful old men who forced helpless young women into harems, a stereotype that was much prized by anti-Mormon propagandists and Western dime novels of the era. While undoubtedly there were abusive husbands, and many older men did indeed unite with younger women (a tradition beginning with Joseph Smith’s marriage to the fourteen-year-old Helen Mar Whitney in Nauvoo), most Mormons practiced the principle out of idealism and viewed sexuality almost from a Puritanical perspective, although child-bearing was, in fact, actively encouraged. As has been well documented, many plural wives were very intelligent and capable women. The Legal and Political Battle Some of the prominent visitors to pioneer Utah, such as Richard Burton and Mark Twain, looked at polygamy with respectful curiosity or irreverent amusement. However, there were reformers in the eastern states who were shocked by its affront to Protestant and Victorian mores, generally overlooking the fact that biblical prophets and some earlier Protestants had practiced polygamy. In 1854 the first Republican party platform inveighed against the “twin relics of barbarism” —slavery and polygamy—and after Congress passed the Merrill anti-Bigamy Act of 1862, Abraham Lincoln signed it into law. Believing that the revelations of God took precedence over laws of man, Mormons ignored it. Yet, the political pressure against polygamy increased throughout the century. Utah was still a territory and desperately seeking statehood so it could legalize polygamy; as it happened, polygamy was one of the central reasons Utah could not obtain statehood. In 1882 Congress passed the Edmunds Act, which disfranchised Mormon polygamists and allowed them to be imprisoned on grounds of “unlawful cohabitation.” John Taylor, the church president at the time, remained defiant, vowing that Mormons would never forsake plural marriage. He went into hiding, as did many prominent polygamists at the time. Nevertheless, many Mormon men were arrested by federal marshals (much despised in Utah) and served terms in jail as “prisoners of conscience.” In 1887 Congress passed the Edmunds-Tucker bill which required the church to give up its property to the federal government, including its prized temples. But the Mormons continued their counter-cultural quest: the church’s second in command, presidential counselor George Q. Cannon, served a term in prison for cohabitation in 1888. One of his statements is typical of the sentiment shared by many in the church at the time: “To comply with the request of our enemies [and give up polygamy] would be to give up all hope of ever entering into the glory of God, the Father, and Jesus Christ, the son. So intently interwoven is this precious doctrine [polygamy] with the exaltation of men and women in the great hereafter that it cannot be given up without giving up at the same time all hope of immortal glory.” Nevertheless, legal and political pressure inevitably mounted until church president Wilford Woodruff, faced with the loss of all church facilities and any political influence in Utah, produced in 1890 what was called a “Manifesto” in which he stated that Mormons would give up plural marriage. This, along with the church’s commitment to staying out of politics, allowed Utah to become a state in 1896. Post-Manifesto Polygamy The transition to monogamy was not easy because polygamy had played such a central role in Mormon doctrine and culture for so long. It was regarded as theologically necessary for complete salvation. Many church leaders therefore continued a sub rosa promotion of polygamy, inaugurating what has been called the post-Manifesto era. The Woodruff presidency, including George Q. Cannon and Joseph F. Smith, sent Mormons to church colonies in Mexico to be married plurally. Among the apostles (members of the second-highest quorum of the church), those who married plurally after the Manifesto included John W. Taylor, Brigham Young Jr., Marriner W. Merril, Abraham Owen Woodruff, Matthias F. Cowley, Rudger Clawson, Abraham Hoagland Cannon, and George Teasdale. Many of these marriages were solemnized in Mexico by Anthony Ivins, who later became a member of the First Presidency. Other post-Manifesto marriages were solemnized in Canada, shipboard on the Pacific Ocean, and in Utah and neighboring states. Word of these secret marriages leaked out and anti-polygamy activists were infuriated. Apostle Reed Smoot, himself a monogamist, was elected a U.S. senator in 1904, but the Senate refused to fully accept him until it had examined the sincerity of LDS allegiance to its public Manifesto. The hearings were a great embarrassment to the LDS church. As a result, Joseph F. Smith released a “Second Manifesto” in 1904, reiterating that the church had abandoned polygamy. Two apostles who had been prominent in post-Manifesto plural marriages, John Taylor and Matthias Cowley, were released from the Quorum of the Twelve and subsequently dismissed from the church—excommunicated in one case and disfellowshipped in the other. Since 1904, LDS members who practice polygamy have usually been excommunicated. Meanwhile, Mormons have become monogamous to a remarkable degree as they have sought to enter the mainstream of American culture. Fundamentalist Persistence On the other hand, and partially as a result of the conflicting messages of church leaders during the post-Manifesto period, many Mormons felt the need to continue “the principle” even though they knew they would be excommunicated from the church as a result. They traced their authority lineage through what they describe as a secret transfer of authority effected by John Taylor in 1886. Most present-day polygamists view Mormon church presidents after Taylor as traitors to the true restored religion. Presently there are an estimated 30,000-60,000 polygamist “fundamentalists” living in Utah and surrounding states. The two leading groups are the United Apostolic Brethren, located in a suburb of Salt Lake City, and residents of the twin border towns of Colorado City and Hildale (originally called Short Creek), straddling the Utah-Arizona border and known as the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The latter are the most conservative and separatist of all the major fundamentalist groups. In one of the ironies of history, the LDS church coordinated with political leaders for a police raid on Short Creek polygamists in 1953, during which mothers were separated from some 263 children and fathers sent to jail. This turned into a public relations debacle for the Utah and Arizona authorities. Many fundamentalists continue to practice marital plurality for idealistic religious reasons. Nevertheless, in recent years the fundamentalist community has been plagued by power struggles that have sometimes ended in bitter disputes, financial losses, and violence, as well as accusations by teenage girls of having been pressured into abusive relationships with older men. A third group of Utah polygamists, the Kingston group, became widely known in 1998 when a fifteen-year-old girl accused her father of having forced her into marriage with her uncle as the uncle’s fifteenth wife; she stated that both her uncle and father had beaten her when she had tried to leave the relationship. Echoes in Contemporary Mormonism For many mainstream Mormons, practical polygamy has faded safely away into the pages of history. Nevertheless, the impact of polygamy lingers on. First, because there are so many statements in church literature in praise of polygamy—statements from Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Wilford Woodruff, and Joseph F. Smith, among others—stating that polygamy is necessary for the highest salvation, many present-day Mormons expect to be polygamists in the next life even though they may be personally uncomfortable with the concept. Influential apostle Bruce R. McConkie, in his book Mormon Doctrine, looked forward to the time when “the holy practice” of polygamy would be practiced once again. Furthermore, if a faithful man’s wife dies and the man remarries in the temple, he is sealed to both women for eternity. Many contemporary Mormon widowers thus regard themselves as “eternal polygamists.” Bibliography: —Todd M. Compton Listen to Todd 1 2 3 Joseph Smith's Plural Wives The full Monty A Mormon Mother The Quorum of the Anointed, 1842-1845 The post-Manifesto period The Journals of William Clayton The Four Zinas Wilford Woodruff Helen Mar Kimball John Taylor Audacious Women Nauvoo Polygamy | Home | Joseph Smith | The Book of Mormon | Mormon Temple | Signature Books | Big Love | | Carthage Jail |Mormon| Masons | Mormon Polygamy | Saints Without Halos | Mormon Women | Copyright © Signature Books, LLC. All rights reserved. No part of this text or graphics may be reproduced in any form or by any means without written permission from Signature Books, LLC |
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If Muslims here stoned a Muslim woman for being in the company of a non-related male, would that be OK? I mean, it's allowed in their religion.... I never said the parents should not be culpable, I said they had a possible defense...duress. Based on their religious beliefs, which you say are being thwarted by the Government, what Jeffs was doing was OK. So...which is is? Are they culpable, or merely practicing their religion as they see fit, as guaranteed by the 1st Amendment? |
| if justice is blind,than this is a real eye opener. my feeling is the parents shoud get 1 year for child abuse,Jeff's should 1 year for preforming a illeagal cerimoney,and the groom should get 6 months in jaik ,and Iron Mike shoud get a year at the Arpio hilton or tent city . but the fact remains that when big brother has it in for you, your toast,and justice will not be served . as far a Muslims go I can't understand anything they do or say and as such I could not give a fair unbiased opinion on that. on the one hand it sounds wrong one the other a dead Muslim is some how not so troublesome to me . sign of the times I guess. shame on her parents and shame on our gov for letting them off the hook. |
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Wasn't Jeffs found guilty of marrying a 14 yr old girl to her cousin? Marrying a 14 yr old against her will is bad enough, but marrying her into an incestual relationship...WTF?!? 10 yrs MINIMUM in my book, preferably a lot more. See him as the scumbag he is. Happy Thanksgiving! |