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Posted: 2/8/2006 2:36:56 PM EDT
Ive seen a few of the fixed mag kits and I was wondering that if you have a kit where the mag can be undone by a "tool" can you use that tool to reomove the mag while shooting?
for example there is a kit out there that uses an allen screw to fix the mag - so can you bring out say a cordless screw gun with an allen tip on it and remove the mag to load it?
just as long as you use some sort of tool other than your hands right?
Or I have heard people saying that the bullet tip can be considered a tool but no one has offered any type of push release attatchment.
I really am not very familiar with the AR as I have only shot one once and it was a CA legal bushmaster. But now with my new stripped lower I am curious.
there has got to be some sort of push release button in a McMaster-Carr catalogue or something like that
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 4:01:00 PM EDT
Although it might be legal, I wouldn't do it as you're asking for trouble that could take a lot of time and money to win in court. Plus if you have any other "evil" features installed your still in violation of SB23.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 5:43:37 PM EDT
What you are considering is in violation of SB-23 and you will get a felony AW manufacturer if caught.

Some are looking at legal stocks without a pistol grip and others are trying to get the Fab10 handle approved.

Link Posted: 2/8/2006 5:54:50 PM EDT
I guess that once you use a tool to remove the magazine you now have a AR with a pistol grip in one hand and a magazine in the other.... didnt think of it like that
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 9:05:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By scotto:
I guess that once you use a tool to remove the magazine you now have a AR with a pistol grip in one hand and a magazine in the other.... didnt think of it like that



JBT: "Son, just slip that mag back in there and then let it go while holding that evil looking thing level. Yup, just as I thought. Falls right back out. Youo got yerself a deetachable mag there boy. You just co-operate and place yore hands on yore head fer me."

Link Posted: 2/8/2006 9:59:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By scotto:
I guess that once you use a tool to remove the magazine you now have a AR with a pistol grip in one hand and a magazine in the other.... didnt think of it like that




Just load ammo from top. You now have a FAB10 at a fraction of the cost.

Link Posted: 2/10/2006 11:22:50 AM EDT
I am in the process of having someone build-up my stag lower with a fixed magazine that will come out by using the tip of a .223 round. Under the law, he has told me this is completely legal. I will have it completed in about 3 weeks. If you want you can take down my username and contact me then and I can forward you pictures, etc...
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 12:21:10 PM EDT
NO NO NO NO!!!!

WHY???!??!? Why do you guys keep INSISTING on handing the DOJ a slam-dunk case to convict you for manufacturing an unlawful Assault Weapon? Why do you want to go to jail?

The DOJ TOLD VULCAN they had to WELD the bottom of the mag AND GLUE IT IN!!! Pinning the mag was NOT ENOUGH. We are already tempting fate just by pinning mags. DO NOT DO THIS!!!
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 12:47:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TRIG1100:
I am in the process of having someone build-up my stag lower with a fixed magazine that will come out by using the tip of a .223 round. Under the law, he has told me this is completely legal. I will have it completed in about 3 weeks. If you want you can take down my username and contact me then and I can forward you pictures, etc...



Once that mag is removed and you have one or more SB-23 features you have now manufactured an AW.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 5:08:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By shopkeep:
NO NO NO NO!!!!

WHY???!??!? Why do you guys keep INSISTING on handing the DOJ a slam-dunk case to convict you for manufacturing an unlawful Assault Weapon? Why do you want to go to jail?

The DOJ TOLD VULCAN they had to WELD the bottom of the mag AND GLUE IT IN!!! Pinning the mag was NOT ENOUGH. We are already tempting fate just by pinning mags. DO NOT DO THIS!!!



why weld the bottom?
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 5:37:18 PM EDT
I dont think that it is slam dunk at all. If you have the sporting conversion kit which uses the allan wrench and continue to load it from the top, then you are abiding by the law and will be ok if it ever goes to court.

By no means detach the mag at all, always load from the top.

This is correct right Bill?
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 5:48:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By shopkeep:
NO NO NO NO!!!!

WHY???!??!? Why do you guys keep INSISTING on handing the DOJ a slam-dunk case to convict you for manufacturing an unlawful Assault Weapon? Why do you want to go to jail?

The DOJ TOLD VULCAN they had to WELD the bottom of the mag AND GLUE IT IN!!! Pinning the mag was NOT ENOUGH. We are already tempting fate just by pinning mags. DO NOT DO THIS!!!


The Vulcan CA legal is pinned and glued not welded. Since Vulcan is mass producing these things, they want to make sure that dummkopfs in their customer base don't get prosecuted for being curious.
Vulcan CA Lower
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 6:07:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TRIG1100:
I am in the process of having someone build-up my stag lower with a fixed magazine that will come out by using the tip of a .223 round. Under the law, he has told me this is completely legal. I will have it completed in about 3 weeks. If you want you can take down my username and contact me then and I can forward you pictures, etc...



Good luck. You might be technically and statutorily correct but all it takes is a judge that sees it differently.

Judge Ban M. All says "Although this weapon complies with the letter of the law, it violates the spirit of the law in that it allows rapid reloading, which is, beyond a doubt, a lethal feature of an assualt weapon. The law clearly intended to ban such weapons with high firepower. As demonstrated by District Attorney Dham DeLah, this weapon can be reloaded just as quickly as a regular assault weapon. I find that exhibit A is an assault weapon and instruct the jury to render a verdict based on this finding."

Of course, this is just speculation. Good luck. I really mean it.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 6:38:27 PM EDT
I ain't scared about testing the CDOJ by making my own fixed mag lower. But my ass is.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 1:38:03 PM EDT
Having a unlisted lower with a fixed mag that requires a tool to remove is about item number 9,999 that the cops are worried about.

Yes, eventually someone is going to get arrested for an offlist ower. But it will be having an off list lower while beating the shit out of his wife. Or having an off list lower in the car while driving drunk and with an eight ball of speed in your pocket.

The MAJORITY of AW's in the state prior to 1999 were never registered, remain in the state, and still get used. Yet AW prosecutions are rare. So i think its pretty silly to assume Scotto is going to jail if he assembles his lower in a manner that the letter of the law says is legal, but DOJ doesnt like. He has a statistically better chance of going to jail for DUI or domestic violence.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 2:28:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Having a unlisted lower with a fixed mag that requires a tool to remove is about item number 9,999 that the cops are worried about.

Yes, eventually someone is going to get arrested for an offlist ower. But it will be having an off list lower while beating the shit out of his wife. Or having an off list lower in the car while driving drunk and with an eight ball of speed in your pocket.

The MAJORITY of AW's in the state prior to 1999 were never registered, remain in the state, and still get used. Yet AW prosecutions are rare. So i think its pretty silly to assume Scotto is going to jail if he assembles his lower in a manner that the letter of the law says is legal, but DOJ doesnt like. He has a statistically better chance of going to jail for DUI or domestic violence.



I see your point, and friends and aquantinences have asked me, "Why don't you just build it the way it's supposed to be?, screw the law!" Because, I don't anyone calling me a criminal, getting charges pressed, convicted or my gun confiscated, no matter how remote the possibilty. I mean, if we are going to make illegal AWs, why stop there? Why not make illegal select fire, suppressors, short barrels? All against the law, in the end...jail is jail, wheter you rip the tag off a mattress or go jihad with your illegal weapon.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 4:23:20 PM EDT
www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=29046&page=2

Carrying an unloaded off list rifle with fixed mag kit in your car seat before you have to register it as a Cat 4 AW may be perfectly legal, I can easily imagine it can quickly become a test case. There are people foaming in their mouth in Calguns thinking its their right to do so and cops have no say in it.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 4:35:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stanze:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Having a unlisted lower with a fixed mag that requires a tool to remove is about item number 9,999 that the cops are worried about.

Yes, eventually someone is going to get arrested for an offlist ower. But it will be having an off list lower while beating the shit out of his wife. Or having an off list lower in the car while driving drunk and with an eight ball of speed in your pocket.

The MAJORITY of AW's in the state prior to 1999 were never registered, remain in the state, and still get used. Yet AW prosecutions are rare. So i think its pretty silly to assume Scotto is going to jail if he assembles his lower in a manner that the letter of the law says is legal, but DOJ doesnt like. He has a statistically better chance of going to jail for DUI or domestic violence.



I see your point, and friends and aquantinences have asked me, "Why don't you just build it the way it's supposed to be?, screw the law!" Because, I don't anyone calling me a criminal, getting charges pressed, convicted or my gun confiscated, no matter how remote the possibilty. I mean, if we are going to make illegal AWs, why stop there?



I'm not advocating doing anything illegal. ij just dont think we need to be paranoid about CALDOJ's opinion when the only thing that matters in court is what the law says. DOJ and a sealawyers will disagre, but the law is clear that the features ban found under SB23 only applies to centerfire firearms, and says nothing about ease of converting to centerfire. Therefore a standard unlisted AR type firearm with a USGI 22 Conversion kit is perfectly legal, because its a rimfire. Converting it to centerfire requires removal of the entire BCG anfd replacement with a centerfire BCG. It doesnt matter what caliber it says on the side. it doesnt matter how many different parts you would need to make it centerfire, full auto, a SBR. As long as its 26" OAL, with a 16" or greater barrel and will not chamber and fire centerfire ammo, in its current configuration its legal.

Link Posted: 2/23/2006 7:30:20 PM EDT
Remember, the moment you take that tool and remove your fixed mag, your rifle has just become capable of accepting a detachable magazine again. If you have any other evil features, then suddenly you have an illegal rifle.

Best ideas I have heard lately:
Detachable pistol grip in case you have a jam which would require a mag drop (remember no flash hider).
Home depot mag fix cap.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 7:53:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mef223:
Remember, the moment you take that tool and remove your fixed mag, your rifle has just become capable of accepting a detachable magazine again. If you have any other evil features, then suddenly you have an illegal rifle.




Nope. The mag release mechanism is what matters. standrard SKS mag is detachable with a bullet tip.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 8:17:30 PM EDT
I think the caveat is that you don’t need tool to install the mag. I believe the reasoning for welding the but plate on the mag of the Vulcan is to discourage modification to accept 20 rounds
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 10:09:27 AM EDT
Remember that these mags+ receivers are traditionally designed to be detachable.
SKS mags are not. In fact, if you have an SKS converted to accept detachable mags = illegal AW.
I'm not an SKS guy so I don't know, but can you detach the mag with a bullet tip, slam another one home, then shoot away? Or does the mag kind of fall apart like on my bolt rifle?
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 10:33:26 AM EDT
One way to end this argument is for one of you to volunteer to take your rifle and tool-only removable mag down to the DOJ office in Sacto, stand at the front counter and show them how you and your tool are complying with the law.

Remove and replace the mag several times to make it eaiser for them to understand.

Leave ammo at home.

You will either be arrested on the spot or not. Your rifle will either be confiscated or not.

Either way, post the results here so we will all know and so we can all refer to you as Mr. Test Case 2006.

Okay, who's first???
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 11:12:11 AM EDT
Another way to end this argument is to write a scathing, sarcastic reply with no real advice. I guess i'll just go back to using the internet for porn.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 11:30:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/24/2006 11:31:37 AM EDT by Sodie]

Originally Posted By mef223:
Remember that these mags+ receivers are traditionally designed to be detachable.
SKS mags are not. In fact, if you have an SKS converted to accept detachable mags = illegal AW.
I'm not an SKS guy so I don't know, but can you detach the mag with a bullet tip, slam another one home, then shoot away? Or does the mag kind of fall apart like on my bolt rifle?



Remember that this is what the Cal legal SKS looks like:


Notice that a couple things are missing even if you remove the "fixed 10rnd magazine" = no pistol grip, no flash hider and no telescoping buttstock.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 1:44:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mef223:
Another way to end this argument is to write a scathing, sarcastic reply with no real advice. I guess i'll just go back to using the internet for porn.



Okay, here's some real advice: review the hundreds of threads on this subject generated since December 2005 and see if you don't come to the same conclusion that I did. This thing has been beat to death at least a hundred different ways and the DOJ has not particapated in any of the beat downs and another thread is not going to add any new insite.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 5:23:52 PM EDT
The law says it may be removed with a tool. Like AR15FAN said, if you plan on commiting felonies in your spare time then it might be of concern to you how your weapon falls under certain AW laws in CA.

I doubt ever hearing about some guy who had a clean record, a good job and family getting sent to prison for having a hex nut on the side of his neutered rifle.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 6:31:29 PM EDT
DOJ agents have been recently threatening that screw-down fixed mags "won't fly" because they were "unapproved."

This was told to me yesterday by a very reliable FFL who is very AW-aware and has been selling off-list lowers. He also reported that the DOJ agents will start trolling ranges looking for fixed-mag rifles. There was even noise about a 'test case'.

I dunno if this is hot-air scare tactics & bluster, or if a seizure or arrest could be made. I'd think they know they're on weak (actually, no) ground and would just seize since grounds for property seizures are at a somewhat lower bar than for arrest.

Now, that could just be more scare tactics. A few things to note:

- DOJ is apparently desparate. Inspecting a large FFL twice in 2.5 weeks with
7 agents means they're quite unhappy;

- "Unapproved" in no way means illegal. The bar for "approval" may be higher than
anything required by law, and may be subject to DOJ staffer's whim (and/or his
own lack of knowledge of the law).

- Clearly, a screw-down fixed mag that takes 'tools + time' to remove and replace clearly
is NOT a detachable magazine as defined by DOJ's own regulation in CCR sec 978.20.


Bill Wiese
San Jose, CA

Link Posted: 2/24/2006 7:19:44 PM EDT
this is why i am using my vulcan v-15 factory fixed lower. I bought and drosed an entire gun. I am prety sure i am safe as I have a doj letter and everything. I am going to wait for the first "test case" before I decide to build my stag lower or put it on gunbroker for $85.00
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 8:04:53 PM EDT
The tools+time test is pretty clear. If the DOJ is trolling at the ranges, I'm not going to velcro the tool to the side of the magazine. I have no intention of casually removing my fixed magazine. As far as the DOJ knows, my mag is fixed and it's going to stay fixed until the RKBA is passed.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 10:02:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bwiese:
This was told to me yesterday by a very reliable FFL who is very AW-aware and has been selling off-list lowers. He also reported that the DOJ agents will start trolling ranges looking for fixed-mag rifles. There was even noise about a 'test case'.



CAL-DOJ is understaffed and overworked. I have a hard time believing they will waste the manpower needed to troll the ranges looking for AR type rifles which meet the letter of them law but violate some DOJ "opinion."

I do believe they will be looking for 18-25yo shooters in possession of hicap mags and unlisted lowers illegally assembled into standard AR type rifles though.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 3:12:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By bwiese:
This was told to me yesterday by a very reliable FFL who is very AW-aware and has been selling off-list lowers. He also reported that the DOJ agents will start trolling ranges looking for fixed-mag rifles. There was even noise about a 'test case'.



CAL-DOJ is understaffed and overworked. I have a hard time believing they will waste the manpower needed to troll the ranges looking for AR type rifles which meet the letter of them law but violate some DOJ "opinion."

I do believe they will be looking for 18-25yo shooters in possession of hicap mags and unlisted lowers illegally assembled into standard AR type rifles though.



+1

How many times have you heard on TV, or read in the papers, about a major bust involving the DOJ where there was only one or two DOJ agents present, and the other 5, 10, 15 LEO were local city PD or SO. I doubt most LE agencies would commit man power to just hanging out at a range for the day. Not to mention it would get a little suspicious if they stayed there all day and peridically walked up and down the line looking at people's rifles. At the 2 ranges I frequent they would be asked to leave.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 10:00:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
CAL-DOJ is understaffed and overworked. I have a hard time believing they will waste the manpower needed to troll the ranges looking for AR type rifles which meet the letter of them law but violate some DOJ "opinion."

I do believe they will be looking for 18-25yo shooters in possession of hicap mags and unlisted lowers illegally assembled into standard AR type rifles though.




Well, they are sending 5 and 7 man teams to do audits of FFLs selling off-list lowers.
Apparently they're not that understaffed.

The 'irritation factor' has climbed high enough that they want some public profile to scare some folks off. When you read that crazy recent DOJ memo grasping at straws, you KNOW they;'re desparate.

Bill Wiese
San Jose
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 11:35:02 PM EDT
Understaffed and overworked!!! How about Undebrained and oversized!!! Three cheers for the doj: moo, moo, moo!!!
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 10:05:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bwiese:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
CAL-DOJ is understaffed and overworked. I have a hard time believing they will waste the manpower needed to troll the ranges looking for AR type rifles which meet the letter of them law but violate some DOJ "opinion."

I do believe they will be looking for 18-25yo shooters in possession of hicap mags and unlisted lowers illegally assembled into standard AR type rifles though.




Well, they are sending 5 and 7 man teams to do audits of FFLs selling off-list lowers.
Apparently they're not that understaffed.



Audits of FFLs is their normal business. Even as much as 10 years agho i never saw less than 3 agents show up for an audit. Thats exactly the kind of stuff they would have to quit doing to troll the gun ranges looking for violations.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 3:14:07 PM EDT
I honestly can't see the benefit of sending out "teams" of agents to find weapon configuration violations.

We have a real crime problem in CA. I doubt they have the assets to conduct anything of the sort.

It's like saying that the LAPD are going to send out teams of officers undercover to catch people who take more than one newspaper out of the coin payed stands.

There is no worth while benefit for them to go around spending big tax dollars busting people for having a hex nut on their mag release instead of welding the mag in place.

The DOJ is blowing hot air. They're updating the list in by JAN 12th remember? They better get a time machine.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 4:37:06 AM EDT
The magazine floor plate is welded in place on the Cali legal Vulcan 15. This sucks balls cause you can't change out to magpul followers or change out the springs.
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