Posted: 3/26/2011 7:02:51 AM EDT
| I remember this being covered before. But what's the difference between a NFA trust and a traditional revocable trusts. I have heard of people using Quicken or legal zoom to do a trust to buy NFA items. Yet there are some Attorneys that say you can't use these programs to do a NFA trust. That they do not produce the Type of trust Florida would recognize as a NFA acceptable trust. even though ATF would accept them. I want to get a can for my MK12 MOD 1 build |
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I have a friend that works for ATF on the inspection side not the NFA side. But rumor has it that ATF is beginning to review trusts more stringently. I had a lawyer draw up my trust for $250 and the piece of mind that is worth it. The other things to keep in mind is that a lawyer can ensure the trust for continuity of ownership should you die suddenly etc so those items can be retained more easily by those in your estate.
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I will say that a trust is not a trust. That is like saying that all wills are equal. If you have ever been through probate proceedings than you will know better. I would recommend to the op to go to the NFA forums to garner some further knowledge. There are in expensive options out there but they start around $250.
You have to think a bit beyond just getting WV to approve the trust. This is an asset in your estate the same as a mutual fund, 401k, bullion, or IRA. Each is treated differently when you pass. Bullion - what bullion? He sold that years ago.... Mutual fund - I am/not on the acct therefore exempt from the death tax of say...40% I went through Pat Buckley in Fort Myers. It's a drive but maybe someone in Tampa can recommend someone closer? |
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I remember this being covered before. But what's the difference between a NFA trust and a traditional revocable trusts. I have heard of people using Quicken or legal zoom to do a trust to buy NFA items. Yet there are some Attorneys that say you can't use these programs to do a NFA trust. That they do not produce the Type of trust Florida would recognize as a NFA acceptable trust. even though ATF would accept them. I want to get a can for my MK12 MOD 1 build An NFA trust is a trust a lawyer drafts just for NFA items typically. There's nothing that differentiates them from other trusts save for more legal language directed at the NFA side of things. What you will see more often is instead of "The john smith revocable living trust" you will see "The John Smith NFA Trust" for a naming convention and it is still a revocable trust. Quicken and legalzoom do make legal trusts. They get approved if done correctly, just like if you buy prepackaged forms and fill in the blanks. Attorneys that say you can't use the programs are wrong - but you can screw up the forms. I had one customer use legalzoom. He built a legal trust......for one item. As in he wrote the trust for the purpose of acquiring ONE YHM Mite Serial number 0001 and ONLY that. So when he went to buy another item he was up the creek. Moral of the story: spend the money on a lawyer, don't spend the money - it's entirely up to you. I tell all my customers that if they don't want to call a lawyer and handle it themselves - that is fine by me. Just don't call me asking for advice I can't give since I'm not a member of the bar. $400-600 is the going rate. Bob Howell can get them done near the lower end of the range but Ermie Myers and other lawyers seem to do them in the $600 range from what I've seen. |
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I had Davis Basta Law draw up my NFA trust. Fast, easy, and cheap. They answered all my questions and the process couldn't have been easier. I highly recommend them.
http://davisbastalaw.com/ |
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A revokable trust is a revokable trust. If someone is charging you extra for an "NFA" trust, he is a shyster. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile I'll disagree. I don't see the need for a normal situation to pay a guy for a Trust. BUT..... Lets say your significant other does not know firearms. Having a well laid out trust would allow YOU to say how the firearms will be distributed after your death. YES, a good will, or even a good letter from you could do the same thing..... BUT, you actually have to write that letter or make that will. Or, lets say you have a complicated situation.... I do not have kids, so my firearms right now are going to go to my nephew. But, right now he is 12. Or maybe he moves to an antigun State, or maybe becomes a felon at some point. A trust could be useful and a lawyer might be helpful in a more complex situation. So, I would not call them a shyster. |
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A revokable trust is a revokable trust. If someone is charging you extra for an "NFA" trust, he is a shyster. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile I'll disagree. I don't see the need for a normal situation to pay a guy for a Trust. BUT..... Lets say your significant other does not know firearms. Having a well laid out trust would allow YOU to say how the firearms will be distributed after your death. YES, a good will, or even a good letter from you could do the same thing..... BUT, you actually have to write that letter or make that will. Or, lets say you have a complicated situation.... I do not have kids, so my firearms right now are going to go to my nephew. But, right now he is 12. Or maybe he moves to an antigun State, or maybe becomes a felon at some point. A trust could be useful and a lawyer might be helpful in a more complex situation. So, I would not call them a shyster. I didn't say a trust was a bad idea. I said If someone is charging you more for an "NFA trust" than a "normal trust," then that person is a shyster. My stamps are on a trust. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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I didn't say a trust was a bad idea. I said If someone is charging you more for an "NFA trust" than a "normal trust," then that person is a shyster. My stamps are on a trust. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile But the thing is a trust with all the provisions of "NFA" weapons in it is different than a normal trust. Most things in a normal trust do not have to go to people who are not felons and over the age of 21. While a normal trust can be used for NFA. A good trust written for NFA is different (If it really is different, I have a normal trust) and if different could easily cost more. |
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I didn't say a trust was a bad idea. I said If someone is charging you more for an "NFA trust" than a "normal trust," then that person is a shyster. My stamps are on a trust. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile But the thing is a trust with all the provisions of "NFA" weapons in it is different than a normal trust. Most things in a normal trust do not have to go to people who are not felons and over the age of 21. While a normal trust can be used for NFA. A good trust written for NFA is different (If it really is different, I have a normal trust) and if different could easily cost more. Go pay more money if you don't understand what "held in trust" means. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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So a Quicken Revocable Trust tells my beneficiary what they need to do to legally transfer the NFA items upon the trustee's death. Excellent! And it spells out the action needed if a trustee becomes ineligible? Super! Get a lawyer to do a trust that is specific to NFA items. You may never wish you had, but if you're ever in court defending yourself against a federal charge for violation of ATF regulations, you will wish you had. |
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Quoted: Does anyone know anyone in Tampa that does one of these for 250 or less just for NFA items nothing else. I'm poor I've had three wives  I saw a booth at the last Tampa Gun Show (March 5,6) advertising NFA Trusts for $200. There's a show coming up on April 16, 17. |
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So a Quicken Revocable Trust tells my beneficiary what they need to do to legally transfer the NFA items upon the trustee's death. Excellent! And it spells out the action needed if a trustee becomes ineligible? Super! Get a lawyer to do a trust that is specific to NFA items. You may never wish you had, but if you're ever in court defending yourself against a federal charge for violation of ATF regulations, you will wish you had. The assets held in trust aren't transferred to anyone on the trustee's death. What actually occurs is that the successor trustee or trustees named in the trust become the trustees who will have control over the affairs of the trust which still owns the assets. You die, the trust continues. The successor trustees excersise the control over the trust that you did when you were alive. They can leave the trust intact, or sell off the assets as they choose. As 103 said; a trust is a trust. |
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Quoted: Quoted: So a Quicken Revocable Trust tells my beneficiary what they need to do to legally transfer the NFA items upon the trustee's death. Excellent! And it spells out the action needed if a trustee becomes ineligible? Super! Get a lawyer to do a trust that is specific to NFA items. You may never wish you had, but if you're ever in court defending yourself against a federal charge for violation of ATF regulations, you will wish you had. The assets held in trust aren't transferred to anyone on the trustee's death. What actually occurs is that the successor trustee or trustees named in the trust become the trustees who will have control over the affairs of the trust which still owns the assets. You die, the trust continues. The successor trustees excersise the control over the trust that you did when you were alive. They can leave the trust intact, or sell off the assets as they choose. As 103 said; a trust is a trust. A trust is indeed a trust - except that the one which contains language specific to NFA items provides instructions to successor trustees who may not know the law regarding the transfer of such items. I don't really know the law, although I have a far better understanding of it than my successor trustee. I paid a lawyer because he does know the laws governing Title II firearms, and the trust he created for me delineates the law as it applies to the possession and transfer of those items upon my death. Quicken does not. Again, it's your choice whether to spend the money to protect yourself (and those you entrust with your Title II property) in case of a problem. |
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So a Quicken Revocable Trust tells my beneficiary what they need to do to legally transfer the NFA items upon the trustee's death. Excellent! And it spells out the action needed if a trustee becomes ineligible? Super! Get a lawyer to do a trust that is specific to NFA items. You may never wish you had, but if you're ever in court defending yourself against a federal charge for violation of ATF regulations, you will wish you had. The assets held in trust aren't transferred to anyone on the trustee's death. What actually occurs is that the successor trustee or trustees named in the trust become the trustees who will have control over the affairs of the trust which still owns the assets. You die, the trust continues. The successor trustees excersise the control over the trust that you did when you were alive. They can leave the trust intact, or sell off the assets as they choose. As 103 said; a trust is a trust. A trust is indeed a trust - except that the one which contains language specific to NFA items provides instructions to successor trustees who may not know the law regarding the transfer of such items. I don't really know the law, although I have a far better understanding of it than my successor trustee. I paid a lawyer because he does know the laws governing Title II firearms, and the trust he created for me delineates the law as it applies to the possession and transfer of those items upon my death. Quicken does not. Again, it's your choice whether to spend the money to protect yourself (and those you entrust with your Title II property) in case of a problem. Or you could just print out the ATF handbook on sections regarding Title II firearms and have that ready for your successor trustee and beneficiaries. This is not complicated stuff. And some attorneys have figured out how to get some people to pay way, way too much money for a very basic revocable living trust. If you're paying extra so that some language can be inserted about ATF form to use, age requirements, and felony implications, more power to you––the world needs people who are easily parted with their money right now. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So a Quicken Revocable Trust tells my beneficiary what they need to do to legally transfer the NFA items upon the trustee's death. Excellent! And it spells out the action needed if a trustee becomes ineligible? Super! Get a lawyer to do a trust that is specific to NFA items. You may never wish you had, but if you're ever in court defending yourself against a federal charge for violation of ATF regulations, you will wish you had. The assets held in trust aren't transferred to anyone on the trustee's death. What actually occurs is that the successor trustee or trustees named in the trust become the trustees who will have control over the affairs of the trust which still owns the assets. You die, the trust continues. The successor trustees excersise the control over the trust that you did when you were alive. They can leave the trust intact, or sell off the assets as they choose. As 103 said; a trust is a trust. A trust is indeed a trust - except that the one which contains language specific to NFA items provides instructions to successor trustees who may not know the law regarding the transfer of such items. I don't really know the law, although I have a far better understanding of it than my successor trustee. I paid a lawyer because he does know the laws governing Title II firearms, and the trust he created for me delineates the law as it applies to the possession and transfer of those items upon my death. Quicken does not. Again, it's your choice whether to spend the money to protect yourself (and those you entrust with your Title II property) in case of a problem. Or you could just print out the ATF handbook on sections regarding Title II firearms and have that ready for your successor trustee and beneficiaries. This is not complicated stuff. And some attorneys have figured out how to get some people to pay way, way too much money for a very basic revocable living trust. If you're paying extra so that some language can be inserted about ATF form to use, age requirements, and felony implications, more power to you––the world needs people who are easily parted with their money right now. Yep. And I can print out the Florida Rules of Procedure. Doesn't mean I should defend myself in court. You choose to use Quicken. I chose to use a lawyer. No need to imply that you're smarter than me for it. |
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Or you could just print out the ATF handbook on sections regarding Title II firearms and have that ready for your successor trustee and beneficiaries.
This is not complicated stuff. Well if it is not complicated.... then why do we have thread after thread asking questions about Title II AND even Title I weapons????? Look, I have a quicken trust. But I am not so foolish to think that my wife knows enough about title II weapons to prevent getting into trouble. What *I* have is a CIII that is like our uncle. So she will be fine since he will handle everything (and get a nice Rolex in the deal). But not everyone has that. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Honestly guys NFA weapons law is basic. Pay an attorney whatever you want if it makes you feel better. Doesn't mKe you intelligent. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile If this was GD or the Pit I might respond to this, but I think I'll leave it be. Good call, if I had not read that in the context of this thread I would have thought it was a joke. All I will say is, wow. |
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Honestly guys NFA weapons law is basic. Pay an attorney whatever you want if it makes you feel better. Doesn't mKe you intelligent. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile If this was GD or the Pit I might respond to this, but I think I'll leave it be. Good call, if I had not read that in the context of this thread I would have thought it was a joke. All I will say is, wow. Are you guys making comments regarding the substance or the iPhone typo of "mKe?" Either way, fools are easily parted from their money. I have seen some very bad advice posted here on a regular basis. Some of you guys just eat it up. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Quoted: So a Quicken Revocable Trust tells my beneficiary what they need to do to legally transfer the NFA items upon the trustee's death. Excellent! And it spells out the action needed if a trustee becomes ineligible? Super! Get a lawyer to do a trust that is specific to NFA items. You may never wish you had, but if you're ever in court defending yourself against a federal charge for violation of ATF regulations, you will wish you had. I could give two shits if they melt down my NFA items and bury 'em after I die; I'll be dead. |
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Honestly guys NFA weapons law is basic. Pay an attorney whatever you want if it makes you feel better. Doesn't mKe you intelligent. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile *Thinking* you know more than a lawyer about law does not make it true.... I have seen some very bad advice posted here on a regular basis
Not possible!!!!! NFA law is basic right? |
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Quoted: Quoted: So a Quicken Revocable Trust tells my beneficiary what they need to do to legally transfer the NFA items upon the trustee's death. Excellent! And it spells out the action needed if a trustee becomes ineligible? Super! Get a lawyer to do a trust that is specific to NFA items. You may never wish you had, but if you're ever in court defending yourself against a federal charge for violation of ATF regulations, you will wish you had. I could give two shits if they melt down my NFA items and bury 'em after I die; I'll be dead. <edited - brain hurts...  > |
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Honestly guys NFA weapons law is basic. Pay an attorney whatever you want if it makes you feel better. Doesn't mKe you intelligent. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile *Thinking* you know more than a lawyer about law does not make it true.... I have seen some very bad advice posted here on a regular basis
Not possible!!!!! NFA law is basic right? As to the first point, my career is worth more to me than trying to help people I don't know on the internet, so I'm not going to go beyond this point: the last time I argued a legal point having to do with a trust with a trust attorney, his client had to write a check for about $300,000 the next day. As to the second point: NFA law is basic, but I was talking about the advice people here give regarding trusts. The dirty little secret that most Florida lawyers don't want we little people to know is that it's very difficult to screw up a trust in this state. And just because someone is a lawyer (or even a trust/estates lawyer) does not mean they know more than you. Sure, many if not most do, but a lot of lawyers are not very good at what they do. Do you believe handing your SBR to a friend while at the range so he can shoot it is an illegal transfer? Because at least one well known "NFA Trust" lawyer thinks so. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Honestly guys NFA weapons law is basic. Pay an attorney whatever you want if it makes you feel better. Doesn't mKe you intelligent. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile *Thinking* you know more than a lawyer about law does not make it true.... I have seen some very bad advice posted here on a regular basis Not possible!!!!! NFA law is basic right? As to the first point, my career is worth more to me than trying to help people I don't know on the internet, so I'm not going to go beyond this point: the last time I argued a legal point having to do with a trust with a trust attorney, his client had to write a check for about $300,000 the next day. As to the second point: NFA law is basic, but I was talking about the advice people here give regarding trusts. The dirty little secret that most Florida lawyers don't want we little people to know is that it's very difficult to screw up a trust in this state. And just because someone is a lawyer (or even a trust/estates lawyer) does not mean they know more than you. Sure, many if not most do, but a lot of lawyers are not very good at what they do. Do you believe handing your SBR to a friend while at the range so he can shoot it is an illegal transfer? Because at least one well known "NFA Trust" lawyer thinks so. What in the world makes you think that is true. Trust generate more Mal practice claim against lawyers than almost any other area of law. The truth is trusts are so complicated that in CA an attorney can not be sued for Mal practice for messing up the rule against perpetuity's. |
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Honestly guys NFA weapons law is basic. Pay an attorney whatever you want if it makes you feel better. Doesn't mKe you intelligent. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile *Thinking* you know more than a lawyer about law does not make it true.... I have seen some very bad advice posted here on a regular basis
Not possible!!!!! NFA law is basic right? As to the first point, my career is worth more to me than trying to help people I don't know on the internet, so I'm not going to go beyond this point: the last time I argued a legal point having to do with a trust with a trust attorney, his client had to write a check for about $300,000 the next day. As to the second point: NFA law is basic, but I was talking about the advice people here give regarding trusts. The dirty little secret that most Florida lawyers don't want we little people to know is that it's very difficult to screw up a trust in this state. And just because someone is a lawyer (or even a trust/estates lawyer) does not mean they know more than you. Sure, many if not most do, but a lot of lawyers are not very good at what they do. Do you believe handing your SBR to a friend while at the range so he can shoot it is an illegal transfer? Because at least one well known "NFA Trust" lawyer thinks so. What in the world makes you think that is true. Trust generate more Mal practice claim against lawyers than almost any other area of law. The truth is trusts are so complicated that in CA an attorney can not be sued for Mal practice for messing up the rule against perpetuity's. I defer. You guys spend as much money as you want. The trust I spent half an hour drafting for myself will stand up to any court's scrutiny. I'll say it again though: a revocable living trust is a revocable living trust. Including "NFA language" in it means absolutely nothing in Florida law. If an attorney is stupid enough to include what is currently NFA law in a trust that may apply to a bene in the future when the law may have changed, then you go ahead an pay that guy. Just make sure his malpractice insurance is up to date for when your bene relies on the language of your trust instead of doing his own due diligence by researching then-current NFA law. Also, that's just dumb. It's extremely easy to determine whether the life in being will have a vested interest within the common law or statutory time frame. Plus, doing a cursory search of California statutes, they have adopted the 90 year rule to essentially render void RAP, so I have no idea what you're talking about now. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Honestly guys NFA weapons law is basic. Pay an attorney whatever you want if it makes you feel better. Doesn't mKe you intelligent. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile *Thinking* you know more than a lawyer about law does not make it true.... I have seen some very bad advice posted here on a regular basis Not possible!!!!! NFA law is basic right? As to the first point, my career is worth more to me than trying to help people I don't know on the internet, so I'm not going to go beyond this point: the last time I argued a legal point having to do with a trust with a trust attorney, his client had to write a check for about $300,000 the next day. As to the second point: NFA law is basic, but I was talking about the advice people here give regarding trusts. The dirty little secret that most Florida lawyers don't want we little people to know is that it's very difficult to screw up a trust in this state. And just because someone is a lawyer (or even a trust/estates lawyer) does not mean they know more than you. Sure, many if not most do, but a lot of lawyers are not very good at what they do. Do you believe handing your SBR to a friend while at the range so he can shoot it is an illegal transfer? Because at least one well known "NFA Trust" lawyer thinks so. What in the world makes you think that is true. Trust generate more Mal practice claim against lawyers than almost any other area of law. The truth is trusts are so complicated that in CA an attorney can not be sued for Mal practice for messing up the rule against perpetuity's. I defer. You guys spend as much money as you want. The trust I spent half an hour drafting for myself will stand up to any court's scrutiny. I'll say it again though: a revocable living trust is a revocable living trust. Including "NFA language" in it means absolutely nothing in Florida law. If an attorney is stupid enough to include what is currently NFA law in a trust that may apply to a bene in the future when the law may have changed, then you go ahead an pay that guy. Just make sure his malpractice insurance is up to date for when your bene relies on the language of your trust instead of doing his own due diligence by researching then-current NFA law. Also, that's just dumb. It's extremely easy to determine whether the life in being will have a vested interest within the common law or statutory time frame. Plus, doing a cursory search of California statutes, they have adopted the 90 year rule to essentially render void RAP, so I have no idea what you're talking about now. Clearly you don't know what RAP is. |
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Honestly guys NFA weapons law is basic. Pay an attorney whatever you want if it makes you feel better. Doesn't mKe you intelligent. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile *Thinking* you know more than a lawyer about law does not make it true.... I have seen some very bad advice posted here on a regular basis
Not possible!!!!! NFA law is basic right? As to the first point, my career is worth more to me than trying to help people I don't know on the internet, so I'm not going to go beyond this point: the last time I argued a legal point having to do with a trust with a trust attorney, his client had to write a check for about $300,000 the next day. As to the second point: NFA law is basic, but I was talking about the advice people here give regarding trusts. The dirty little secret that most Florida lawyers don't want we little people to know is that it's very difficult to screw up a trust in this state. And just because someone is a lawyer (or even a trust/estates lawyer) does not mean they know more than you. Sure, many if not most do, but a lot of lawyers are not very good at what they do. Do you believe handing your SBR to a friend while at the range so he can shoot it is an illegal transfer? Because at least one well known "NFA Trust" lawyer thinks so. What in the world makes you think that is true. Trust generate more Mal practice claim against lawyers than almost any other area of law. The truth is trusts are so complicated that in CA an attorney can not be sued for Mal practice for messing up the rule against perpetuity's. I defer. You guys spend as much money as you want. The trust I spent half an hour drafting for myself will stand up to any court's scrutiny. I'll say it again though: a revocable living trust is a revocable living trust. Including "NFA language" in it means absolutely nothing in Florida law. If an attorney is stupid enough to include what is currently NFA law in a trust that may apply to a bene in the future when the law may have changed, then you go ahead an pay that guy. Just make sure his malpractice insurance is up to date for when your bene relies on the language of your trust instead of doing his own due diligence by researching then-current NFA law. Also, that's just dumb. It's extremely easy to determine whether the life in being will have a vested interest within the common law or statutory time frame. Plus, doing a cursory search of California statutes, they have adopted the 90 year rule to essentially render void RAP, so I have no idea what you're talking about now. Clearly you don't know what RAP is. Yeah, I do. It is when a thing must vest within a certain amount of time of the life in being or the gift is void. And based upon a quick search of California statutes, they have adopted the 21 years (common law codified) or 90 years rule. If it satisfies either, it is a valid gift. RAP was created in the common law to limit dead hand control so that the grantor could not control his property after death in perpetuity. So an arbitrary time frame was picked (21 years of the life in being). A lot of states (Florida included) have decided to effectively render RAP toothless by increasing the time frame from 21 years to 90 years or 360 years depending upon the method of conveyance. Unless you were talking about something else. |
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Quoted: You have disproven your own point. You have quoted the rule butproven you dont understand the issue. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Honestly guys NFA weapons law is basic. Pay an attorney whatever you want if it makes you feel better. Doesn't mKe you intelligent. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile *Thinking* you know more than a lawyer about law does not make it true.... I have seen some very bad advice posted here on a regular basis Not possible!!!!! NFA law is basic right? As to the first point, my career is worth more to me than trying to help people I don't know on the internet, so I'm not going to go beyond this point: the last time I argued a legal point having to do with a trust with a trust attorney, his client had to write a check for about $300,000 the next day. As to the second point: NFA law is basic, but I was talking about the advice people here give regarding trusts. The dirty little secret that most Florida lawyers don't want we little people to know is that it's very difficult to screw up a trust in this state. And just because someone is a lawyer (or even a trust/estates lawyer) does not mean they know more than you. Sure, many if not most do, but a lot of lawyers are not very good at what they do. Do you believe handing your SBR to a friend while at the range so he can shoot it is an illegal transfer? Because at least one well known "NFA Trust" lawyer thinks so. What in the world makes you think that is true. Trust generate more Mal practice claim against lawyers than almost any other area of law. The truth is trusts are so complicated that in CA an attorney can not be sued for Mal practice for messing up the rule against perpetuity's. I defer. You guys spend as much money as you want. The trust I spent half an hour drafting for myself will stand up to any court's scrutiny. I'll say it again though: a revocable living trust is a revocable living trust. Including "NFA language" in it means absolutely nothing in Florida law. If an attorney is stupid enough to include what is currently NFA law in a trust that may apply to a bene in the future when the law may have changed, then you go ahead an pay that guy. Just make sure his malpractice insurance is up to date for when your bene relies on the language of your trust instead of doing his own due diligence by researching then-current NFA law. Also, that's just dumb. It's extremely easy to determine whether the life in being will have a vested interest within the common law or statutory time frame. Plus, doing a cursory search of California statutes, they have adopted the 90 year rule to essentially render void RAP, so I have no idea what you're talking about now. Clearly you don't know what RAP is. Yeah, I do. It is when a thing must vest within a certain amount of time of the life in being or the gift is void. And based upon a quick search of California statutes, they have adopted the 21 years (common law codified) or 90 years rule. If it satisfies either, it is a valid gift. RAP was created in the common law to limit dead hand control so that the grantor could not control his property after death in perpetuity. So an arbitrary time frame was picked (21 years of the life in being). A lot of states (Florida included) have decided to effectively render RAP toothless by increasing the time frame from 21 years to 90 years or 360 years depending upon the method of conveyance. Unless you were talking about something else. |
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You have disproven your own point. You have quoted the rule butproven you dont understand the issue. Quoted:
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Honestly guys NFA weapons law is basic. Pay an attorney whatever you want if it makes you feel better. Doesn't mKe you intelligent. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile *Thinking* you know more than a lawyer about law does not make it true.... I have seen some very bad advice posted here on a regular basis
Not possible!!!!! NFA law is basic right? As to the first point, my career is worth more to me than trying to help people I don't know on the internet, so I'm not going to go beyond this point: the last time I argued a legal point having to do with a trust with a trust attorney, his client had to write a check for about $300,000 the next day. As to the second point: NFA law is basic, but I was talking about the advice people here give regarding trusts. The dirty little secret that most Florida lawyers don't want we little people to know is that it's very difficult to screw up a trust in this state. And just because someone is a lawyer (or even a trust/estates lawyer) does not mean they know more than you. Sure, many if not most do, but a lot of lawyers are not very good at what they do. Do you believe handing your SBR to a friend while at the range so he can shoot it is an illegal transfer? Because at least one well known "NFA Trust" lawyer thinks so. What in the world makes you think that is true. Trust generate more Mal practice claim against lawyers than almost any other area of law. The truth is trusts are so complicated that in CA an attorney can not be sued for Mal practice for messing up the rule against perpetuity's. I defer. You guys spend as much money as you want. The trust I spent half an hour drafting for myself will stand up to any court's scrutiny. I'll say it again though: a revocable living trust is a revocable living trust. Including "NFA language" in it means absolutely nothing in Florida law. If an attorney is stupid enough to include what is currently NFA law in a trust that may apply to a bene in the future when the law may have changed, then you go ahead an pay that guy. Just make sure his malpractice insurance is up to date for when your bene relies on the language of your trust instead of doing his own due diligence by researching then-current NFA law. Also, that's just dumb. It's extremely easy to determine whether the life in being will have a vested interest within the common law or statutory time frame. Plus, doing a cursory search of California statutes, they have adopted the 90 year rule to essentially render void RAP, so I have no idea what you're talking about now. Clearly you don't know what RAP is. Yeah, I do. It is when a thing must vest within a certain amount of time of the life in being or the gift is void. And based upon a quick search of California statutes, they have adopted the 21 years (common law codified) or 90 years rule. If it satisfies either, it is a valid gift. RAP was created in the common law to limit dead hand control so that the grantor could not control his property after death in perpetuity. So an arbitrary time frame was picked (21 years of the life in being). A lot of states (Florida included) have decided to effectively render RAP toothless by increasing the time frame from 21 years to 90 years or 360 years depending upon the method of conveyance. Unless you were talking about something else. Well maybe you could actually take a second and explain the issue more than saying "RAP is complicated and causes malpractice issues." Unless you want an hourly rate to explain this to me? Because your usage and grammar reminds me of a certain attorney who should really have his secretary screen his letters before he sends them out to clients. I am not practicing and don't offer legal advice or services, so I am not aware of some special malpractice issue related to RAP in the context of trusts. Are you talking about the difference between 90 years and 360 years and attorneys screwing up when to use which? Or not understand what the life in being is? Since my bene currently exists and her heirs, etc., take if she predeceases me, RAP doesn't apply to my very simple and perfectly valid trust. So what are you talking about? |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You have disproven your own point. You have quoted the rule butproven you dont understand the issue. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Honestly guys NFA weapons law is basic. Pay an attorney whatever you want if it makes you feel better. Doesn't mKe you intelligent. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile *Thinking* you know more than a lawyer about law does not make it true.... I have seen some very bad advice posted here on a regular basis Not possible!!!!! NFA law is basic right? As to the first point, my career is worth more to me than trying to help people I don't know on the internet, so I'm not going to go beyond this point: the last time I argued a legal point having to do with a trust with a trust attorney, his client had to write a check for about $300,000 the next day. As to the second point: NFA law is basic, but I was talking about the advice people here give regarding trusts. The dirty little secret that most Florida lawyers don't want we little people to know is that it's very difficult to screw up a trust in this state. And just because someone is a lawyer (or even a trust/estates lawyer) does not mean they know more than you. Sure, many if not most do, but a lot of lawyers are not very good at what they do. Do you believe handing your SBR to a friend while at the range so he can shoot it is an illegal transfer? Because at least one well known "NFA Trust" lawyer thinks so. What in the world makes you think that is true. Trust generate more Mal practice claim against lawyers than almost any other area of law. The truth is trusts are so complicated that in CA an attorney can not be sued for Mal practice for messing up the rule against perpetuity's. I defer. You guys spend as much money as you want. The trust I spent half an hour drafting for myself will stand up to any court's scrutiny. I'll say it again though: a revocable living trust is a revocable living trust. Including "NFA language" in it means absolutely nothing in Florida law. If an attorney is stupid enough to include what is currently NFA law in a trust that may apply to a bene in the future when the law may have changed, then you go ahead an pay that guy. Just make sure his malpractice insurance is up to date for when your bene relies on the language of your trust instead of doing his own due diligence by researching then-current NFA law. Also, that's just dumb. It's extremely easy to determine whether the life in being will have a vested interest within the common law or statutory time frame. Plus, doing a cursory search of California statutes, they have adopted the 90 year rule to essentially render void RAP, so I have no idea what you're talking about now. Clearly you don't know what RAP is. Yeah, I do. It is when a thing must vest within a certain amount of time of the life in being or the gift is void. And based upon a quick search of California statutes, they have adopted the 21 years (common law codified) or 90 years rule. If it satisfies either, it is a valid gift. RAP was created in the common law to limit dead hand control so that the grantor could not control his property after death in perpetuity. So an arbitrary time frame was picked (21 years of the life in being). A lot of states (Florida included) have decided to effectively render RAP toothless by increasing the time frame from 21 years to 90 years or 360 years depending upon the method of conveyance. Unless you were talking about something else. Well maybe you could actually take a second and explain the issue more than saying "RAP is complicated and causes malpractice issues." Unless you want an hourly rate to explain this to me? Because your usage and grammar reminds me of a certain attorney who should really have his secretary screen his letters before he sends them out to clients. I am not practicing and don't offer legal advice or services, so I am not aware of some special malpractice issue related to RAP in the context of trusts. Are you talking about the difference between 90 years and 360 years and attorneys screwing up when to use which? Or not understand what the life in being is? Since my bene currently exists and her heirs, etc., take if she predeceases me, RAP doesn't apply to my very simple and perfectly valid trust. So what are you talking about? This isn't the Pit or GD and if this goes further someone will get a lock or a warning. My point is trusts are not hard to screw up, as you said. In fact they are very complicated, as is most NFA issues. Your statements were wrong at best but you are entitled to your opinion. If you are comfortable with your abilities great. |
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You have disproven your own point. You have quoted the rule butproven you dont understand the issue. Quoted:
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Honestly guys NFA weapons law is basic. Pay an attorney whatever you want if it makes you feel better. Doesn't mKe you intelligent. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile *Thinking* you know more than a lawyer about law does not make it true.... I have seen some very bad advice posted here on a regular basis
Not possible!!!!! NFA law is basic right? As to the first point, my career is worth more to me than trying to help people I don't know on the internet, so I'm not going to go beyond this point: the last time I argued a legal point having to do with a trust with a trust attorney, his client had to write a check for about $300,000 the next day. As to the second point: NFA law is basic, but I was talking about the advice people here give regarding trusts. The dirty little secret that most Florida lawyers don't want we little people to know is that it's very difficult to screw up a trust in this state. And just because someone is a lawyer (or even a trust/estates lawyer) does not mean they know more than you. Sure, many if not most do, but a lot of lawyers are not very good at what they do. Do you believe handing your SBR to a friend while at the range so he can shoot it is an illegal transfer? Because at least one well known "NFA Trust" lawyer thinks so. What in the world makes you think that is true. Trust generate more Mal practice claim against lawyers than almost any other area of law. The truth is trusts are so complicated that in CA an attorney can not be sued for Mal practice for messing up the rule against perpetuity's. I defer. You guys spend as much money as you want. The trust I spent half an hour drafting for myself will stand up to any court's scrutiny. I'll say it again though: a revocable living trust is a revocable living trust. Including "NFA language" in it means absolutely nothing in Florida law. If an attorney is stupid enough to include what is currently NFA law in a trust that may apply to a bene in the future when the law may have changed, then you go ahead an pay that guy. Just make sure his malpractice insurance is up to date for when your bene relies on the language of your trust instead of doing his own due diligence by researching then-current NFA law. Also, that's just dumb. It's extremely easy to determine whether the life in being will have a vested interest within the common law or statutory time frame. Plus, doing a cursory search of California statutes, they have adopted the 90 year rule to essentially render void RAP, so I have no idea what you're talking about now. Clearly you don't know what RAP is. Yeah, I do. It is when a thing must vest within a certain amount of time of the life in being or the gift is void. And based upon a quick search of California statutes, they have adopted the 21 years (common law codified) or 90 years rule. If it satisfies either, it is a valid gift. RAP was created in the common law to limit dead hand control so that the grantor could not control his property after death in perpetuity. So an arbitrary time frame was picked (21 years of the life in being). A lot of states (Florida included) have decided to effectively render RAP toothless by increasing the time frame from 21 years to 90 years or 360 years depending upon the method of conveyance. Unless you were talking about something else. Well maybe you could actually take a second and explain the issue more than saying "RAP is complicated and causes malpractice issues." Unless you want an hourly rate to explain this to me? Because your usage and grammar reminds me of a certain attorney who should really have his secretary screen his letters before he sends them out to clients. I am not practicing and don't offer legal advice or services, so I am not aware of some special malpractice issue related to RAP in the context of trusts. Are you talking about the difference between 90 years and 360 years and attorneys screwing up when to use which? Or not understand what the life in being is? Since my bene currently exists and her heirs, etc., take if she predeceases me, RAP doesn't apply to my very simple and perfectly valid trust. So what are you talking about? This isn't the Pit or GD and if this goes further someone will get a lock or a warning. My point is trusts are not hard to screw up, as you said. In fact they are very complicated, as is most NFA issues. Your statements were wrong at best but you are entitled to your opinion. If you are comfortable with your abilities great. Well since you are either unwilling or unable to form an actual argument, I am going to reply with the same depth as you: no, you're wrong. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So a Quicken Revocable Trust tells my beneficiary what they need to do to legally transfer the NFA items upon the trustee's death. Excellent! And it spells out the action needed if a trustee becomes ineligible? Super! Get a lawyer to do a trust that is specific to NFA items. You may never wish you had, but if you're ever in court defending yourself against a federal charge for violation of ATF regulations, you will wish you had. I could give two shits if they melt down my NFA items and bury 'em after I die; I'll be dead. <edited - brain hurts... >No need to get a headache over it. I'm selfish I suppose and I'm just being honest. 
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So a Quicken Revocable Trust tells my beneficiary what they need to do to legally transfer the NFA items upon the trustee's death. Excellent! And it spells out the action needed if a trustee becomes ineligible? Super! Get a lawyer to do a trust that is specific to NFA items. You may never wish you had, but if you're ever in court defending yourself against a federal charge for violation of ATF regulations, you will wish you had. I could give two shits if they melt down my NFA items and bury 'em after I die; I'll be dead. <edited - brain hurts... >No need to get a headache over it. I'm selfish I suppose and I'm just being honest. No worries...I was going to make a smart-ass comment, but this is not GD and I hate it when smart-asses like me post smart-ass comments outside of GD. Goose-Gander thingy...  |
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So a Quicken Revocable Trust tells my beneficiary what they need to do to legally transfer the NFA items upon the trustee's death. Excellent! And it spells out the action needed if a trustee becomes ineligible? Super! Get a lawyer to do a trust that is specific to NFA items. You may never wish you had, but if you're ever in court defending yourself against a federal charge for violation of ATF regulations, you will wish you had. I could give two shits if they melt down my NFA items and bury 'em after I die; I'll be dead. <edited - brain hurts... >
No need to get a headache over it. I'm selfish I suppose and I'm just being honest. No worries...I was going to make a smart-ass comment, but this is not GD and I hate it when smart-asses like me post smart-ass comments outside of GD. Goose-Gander thingy...
This is a genuine question to make people think. I'm not trying to be a jerk when I ask this. If your home is held in trust for your son, does the trust explain how Florida title law works? No, of course not. But why? Because if you convey your home to your trust in 2011, but you do not die until 2050, the law in 2050 may be very different than the law in 2011. It would likely be malpractice if a lawyer explained how to go about conveying and recording title in the trust if your son then relies on that language in 2050, but the law had changed. I would argue the same is true regarding NFA issues. Based upon NFA law today, if you were to die today (again, hypothetical––I'm not wishing you death or something like that), your beneficiary would Form 5 your NFA item to himself. While he is waiting for the transfer to be granted, the NFA item is held in trust by the successor trustee. If your bene is legally unable to possess, the Form 5 will be denied. There are a variety of actions that can then be taken. But what if you die in 2050 and the inheritance rules of the NFA have changed dramatically? Can your trust explaining how to go about transferring and who may take the NFA be trusted by your bene? Obviously the answer is no. When it comes down to it, it is the responsibility of the bene to understand the law when the gift is to vest. For example, my father passed away about a year ago, and he left me certain property in trust and through his will. It is my responsibility to either do my own research or consult an attorney regarding how I can accept that property and properly record title. The trust simply says (paraphrasing, obviously), "103 is to take 1/3 of the real and personal property held in trust by the 103's Dad's Revocable Living Trust." There is no language explaining how I can do that. There is even property that I probably can't take because of where it is invested. I won't go into what that is here, but it is my duty to find out about that particular issue so as to cover my own legal rear-end. When my father invested said money, he broke no law, but fast forward more than a decade, and my taking that money could be a federal crime. If the trust as written when that investment was legal explained that the investment was legal and how I should go about getting the money, and I had relied on that language, I could have been royally screwed. I'm not telling you your trust is invalid or something like that. If it was written by a competent attorney, I have almost zero doubt that it is perfectly valid and enforceable. But I would be wary of passing on legal advice to my heirs through the trust writing. |