Posted: 1/31/2010 1:23:15 PM EDT
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Good time again guys...
Sorry I had to bail before the 2nd COF... 
Heres the pics of the first COF shots of everyone who participated. if you rpic aint there its probably still uploading... Marcus Clickola |
| Thanks for getting these up so quick. I stayed to try and shoot the 2nd COF but, it took a long time to get through it and I had to bail before I got the chance. I also was a little nervous after that ND because I was right behind (3FT away) the guy and I felt the cuncussion blast directly on my back. This was the 1st time I ever got to shoot at a FDCC event and I hope I'll be able to attend them more often. |
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An ND...wow...hope noone was hurt  Another guy next to to the person got grazed on the leg and was bleeding a little..Not too sure how deep the wound was..From what I understand, he was trying to de-cock a 1911 with a round in the chamber when the ND happened  . Round struck the ground and ricochet hitting the guy next to him..
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Fuuuck....thats not good at all...I know how many times saftey is preached at the shoots, Chuck Rob et al do a great job with the saftey brief but obviously folks dont listen...or are so unnfamiliar with thier weapons they need to practice at home until they are safe enough to be around other shooters...this saddens me greatly and doesnt reflect well on the club at all
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An ND...wow...hope noone was hurt Another guy next to to the person got grazed on the leg and was bleeding a little..Not too sure how deep the wound was..From what I understand, he was trying to de-cock a 1911 with a round in the chamber when the ND happened . Round struck the ground and ricochet hitting the guy next to him..
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Thanks those picks are great. 
I was two people over when the ND happened. I was loading mags when I heard a odd gunshot sound from my left. Looked over and a guy was bleading from two holes in his leg. I think when the 45 bullet hit the ground it fragmented hitting the man in the leg. I went to my truck and grabed by first aid kit and he got some band aids and was all good. |
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So I understand most of the scoring. RA is the range average for your place correct? which is covering both COF 1 and COF 2. And then is R1 your place for that COF and R2 is your rank for the other?
I had a great time out there. Was my first time doing tactical carbine work and glad Glen and Chris brought me along. Now to file for my SBR paperwork, I need a rifle of my own. ––Scottie |
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Quoted: Thanks for getting these up so quick. I stayed to try and shoot the 2nd COF but, it took a long time to get through it and I had to bail before I got the chance. I also was a little nervous after that ND because I was right behind (3FT away) the guy and I felt the cuncussion blast directly on my back. This was the 1st time I ever got to shoot at a FDCC event and I hope I'll be able to attend them more often. You gotta be fookin' kidding me. |
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Quoted: Another guy next to to the person got grazed on the leg and was bleeding a little..Not too sure how deep the wound was..From what I understand, he was trying to de-cock a 1911 with a round in the chamber when the ND happened . Round struck the ground and ricochet hitting the guy next to him.......................................  |
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This is very serious and reflects poorly upon us. I would say this needs to be addressed in next month's shoot. I'd be interested in knowing a few more of the details here. Why was a pistol being handled on our side?
On the other hand, I believe FDCC has been accident/injury free for the ten years of its lifetime now. Overall, I think we've had an excellent track record. This really gives us a reality check that should cause us to rethink and reevaluate our safety practices. |
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Quoted: I am certainly no expert but I would think that ending the holstering of sidearms with magazines in them might need to be the response. We are not in the field out there and I can't see any need for that level of readiness. I'm not quite sure what somebody fingerfucking a gun they're unfamiliar with has to do with magazines in guns that are holstered. |
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I am certainly no expert but I would think that ending the holstering of sidearms with magazines in them might need to be the response. We are not in the field out there and I can't see any need for that level of readiness. I'm not quite sure what somebody fingerfucking a gun they're unfamiliar with has to do with magazines in guns that are holstered. This. The rules in place, if followed, would have prevented the ND on Sunday. New rules are irrelevant if the rules in place are not followed. The ND happened on a cold line. I wasn't near the ND. However, I will speculate that SOMEONE standing by saw the pistol being handled and failed to step in. Any MMQB'ing should include everyone that failed to watch out for each other, not just the ND'er. FWIW, the ND'er was DQ'd and asked to leave the range, which they did without argument. |
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So I understand most of the scoring. RA is the range average for your place correct? which is covering both COF 1 and COF 2. And then is R1 your place for that COF and R2 is your rank for the other? I had a great time out there. Was my first time doing tactical carbine work and glad Glen and Chris brought me along. Now to file for my SBR paperwork, I need a rifle of my own. ––Scottie Correct. I'll make the headers more verbose next time. I'm trying to come up with a way to "standardize" scores across different courses of fire and month to month. I'm going to try seconds/hit for awhile and see how it works. |
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I am certainly no expert but I would think that ending the holstering of sidearms with magazines in them might need to be the response. We are not in the field out there and I can't see any need for that level of readiness. I'm not quite sure what somebody fingerfucking a gun they're unfamiliar with has to do with magazines in guns that are holstered. This. The rules in place, if followed, would have prevented the ND on Sunday. New rules are irrelevant if the rules in place are not followed. The ND happened on a cold line. I wasn't near the ND. However, I will speculate that SOMEONE standing by saw the pistol being handled and failed to step in. Any MMQB'ing should include everyone that failed to watch out for each other, not just the ND'er. FWIW, the ND'er was DQ'd and asked to leave the range, which they did without argument. I was directly behind the person that had the ND with our backs facing each other so I didn't get to see him handling the firearm and the person that got struck was on the opposite side of the same person away from his pistol/holster side so, he wouldn't have noticed either. I do remeber that this was when everyone was loading mags to specific round counts for the 2nd COF so, that's possibly why no one noticed the individual handling his firearm. I know this is NO EXCUSE but, that's my take on it. |
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I respect the rules and the process that goes into developing and reevaluating them, and everyone out there every time. But I also wouldn't have a problem with another step in between myself (or others) and another negligent discharge. After reflecting on how this happened, I;m having trouble seeing the benefit of magazines kept out of rifles but not handguns. A holster does not automatically make a weapon safe, quite the contrary if misused. Maybe someone can explain to me how the greater good is served by doing it this way. If that magazine wasn't in that handgun, and the shooter was required to keep an OBI in it all the way to right before running the COF, this discussion would have been dramatically less likely to exist. It's alot easier to spot an unsafe gun when everyone has flags in, which is why we do it with rifles and a matter of general practice. So why don't we do it with handguns?
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I honestly think this was a failure to adhere to correct weapons handling, or adherence to the 4 cardinal rules which are always emphasized at every shoot...
1.All guns are loaded_CAN NEVER BE STRESSED ENOUGH 2.Never let the muzzle point at anything you are not willing to destroy 3.Keep your finger off the trigger_OBVIOUS FAIL HERE 4.Be sure of your target and what's beyond it. I was taught... 1.Safety 2.Drop the mag 3.Rack the slide multiple time or manipulate the action 4.Visual check of chamber 5.Point weapon downrange or in a safe direction and squeeze the trigger. 6.Lock action to the rear. With this being drilled into me I have never ever had a ND or AD... This might be something we need to incorporate into the safety brief....The only downside is a lot of folks are BSing when the brief is going on, much like on an aircraft at the beginning of a flight and folks become complacent... What happened yesterday was incredibly lucky and unfortunate. Dropping a hammer on a 1911....never should be done IMHO Not MMQBing...but we all have a stake in the success of the FDCC and hopefully this will continue |
| The FDCC shoot is the only match I have ever shot at. What is the standard for other matches regarding loaded weapons? I have been thinking what If my wife or son had been there. If the frag had hit some one in the face and lost an eye; it could of been real bad. If the rule is followed that no unholstered pistols are allowed then there should be no ND's. If a pistol needs to be unloaded or loaded it can be done so with the rifle at the begining of the course of fire and topped off and reloaded at the end. These rules and already are in place. I do not think any more rules should be made just the ones we got followed. |
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Every match I've ever shot has what's called a "cold range" . Meaning there are NO loaded guns that are not on the firing line. Some ranges go so far as to have a table that faces a berm for working on your guns. If you have a mag even an empty one on that table with you your DQ. To me a " cold range" and a "safe line" are two different things.
ETA Thanks for posting the pics. I like to see how people set up their guns. |
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So I understand most of the scoring. RA is the range average for your place correct? which is covering both COF 1 and COF 2. And then is R1 your place for that COF and R2 is your rank for the other? I had a great time out there. Was my first time doing tactical carbine work and glad Glen and Chris brought me along. Now to file for my SBR paperwork, I need a rifle of my own. ––Scottie Correct. I'll make the headers more verbose next time. I'm trying to come up with a way to "standardize" scores across different courses of fire and month to month. I'm going to try seconds/hit for awhile and see how it works. Thanks for clarifying. I figured I understood it but just wasn't sure. Quoted:
ETA Thanks for posting the pics. I like to see how people set up their guns. Iron sights and practice are all you need. ––Scottie |
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ETA Thanks for posting the pics. I like to see how people set up their guns. Iron sights and practice are all you need. ––Scottie[/quote] I still shoot my Irons out to 200+meters about 4 or 5 times a year. If one is going to only have Iron sights on a carbine or rifle they might want them to be night sights then. I don't see anyway Iron sights will ever be faster than optics though given everything else is equal. 
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I still shoot my Irons out to 200+meters about 4 or 5 times a year. If one is going to only have Iron sights on a carbine or rifle they might want them to be night sights then. I don't see anyway Iron sights will ever be faster than optics though given everything else is equal.
You are probably right as far as which is quicker. I was running irons for the course so you can see how my score did comparatively to the others (I think there were 3 other guys using irons, 1 because EOtech batteries died). But I do agree, if I was to run a second time using a Micro or other optic my times could possibly be faster. Practice is what makes the difference. That is the bottom line. ––Scottie |
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I still shoot my Irons out to 200+meters about 4 or 5 times a year. If one is going to only have Iron sights on a carbine or rifle they might want them to be night sights then. I don't see anyway Iron sights will ever be faster than optics though given everything else is equal.
You are probably right as far as which is quicker. I was running irons for the course so you can see how my score did comparatively to the others (I think there were 3 other guys using irons, 1 because EOtech batteries died). But I do agree, if I was to run a second time using a Micro or other optic my times could possibly be faster. Practice is what makes the difference. That is the bottom line. ––Scottie You did real good with your Irons. Before practice comes proper training. I prefer Aimpoints and variable powered optics. My eyes are not getting any younger though. I recenly shot a carbine course with Randy Cain of Cumberland tactics. The best shooter at 200 yards with Irons was a 16 year old kid. When he gets to be my age he'll want an Aimpoint too
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The FDCC shoot is the only match I have ever shot at. What is the standard for other matches regarding loaded weapons? I have been thinking what If my wife or son had been there. If the frag had hit some one in the face and lost an eye; it could of been real bad. If the rule is followed that no unholstered pistols are allowed then there should be no ND's. If a pistol needs to be unloaded or loaded it can be done so with the rifle at the begining of the course of fire and topped off and reloaded at the end. These rules and already are in place. I do not think any more rules should be made just the ones we got followed. This. There's already a 30 minute safety brief. There's already rules to be followed.... There's no reason to make more. Somebody was careless. That happens. No reason to punish the people that are following the rules. There are alot of really good guys that come to the FDCC shoots. But I think Rob said it best in one of his safety briefs. I have alot of money's worth of stuff sitting on that table. There has been theft before. I like to have my sidearm with me, loaded. Makes me feel better. I DO feel safer knowing there's alot of other guys around me with the same mentality. (Though judging by this thread there's a few people that don't think like that either..) Let's not add rules, just keep enforcing the ones we have..... I don't know many people that come to the shoots, but I've been going a few years now.. My brother and I shoot our Bulgy Krinks usually every match. So this is just my .02 cents based on that... |
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Quoted: Let's not add rules, just keep enforcing the ones we have..... The rules already in place would have prevented the incident, from what I understand, had the rules been followed. Is making more rules to not be followed going to prevent another, similar incident? Or is the answer to enforce the current rules? It sounds like such a shame that people on a firearms forum feel such a need to make ever more rules when the current ones work fine. It fails dismally for our government, yet it should work fine for the FDCC, right?
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hey guys If adding 1 rule saves 1 person from getting shot I am all for it..................Cold range, I am a safe shooter but obviously not everybody else is, and instead of not shooting why not add just 1 more rule.
Cold Range, try it for a month if it doesn't work, i.e. somebody gets shot, then discontinue it. I have serious problem with ND's, I hope you guys do too. 
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The rules already in place would have prevented the incident, from what I understand, had the rules been followed. Is making more rules to not be followed going to prevent another, similar incident? Or is the answer to enforce the current rules? It sounds like such a shame that people on a firearms forum feel such a need to make ever more rules when the current ones work fine. It fails dismally for our government, yet it should work fine for the FDCC, right? Yep. This is exactly the point I was trying to make. Thanks vanilla gorilla! |
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hey guys If adding 1 rule saves 1 person from getting shot I am all for it..................Cold range, I am a safe shooter but obviously not everybody else is, and instead of not shooting why not add just 1 more rule. Cold Range, try it for a month if it doesn't work, i.e. somebody gets shot, then discontinue it. I have serious problem with ND's, I hope you guys do too. Sorry Sam, but that is a fallacious argument. We've experienced NDs during the actual course of fire before. If we added just one rule that insisted you shout 'Bang!' instead of using live ammo, we could mitigate the risk to the shooter, the scorers, and the time keeper. Imagine how useful that would be. The fact is that there are risks inherent to everything we do, particularly with firearms. We minimize those risks as best we can. When the four rules in place are obeyed and common sense is used, it is remarkably difficult, if not impossible, for incidents such as this one to occur. The rules were not followed, an individual did something stupid, and this is the end result. I've been around for eight of the ten years FDCC has been up and running. When the club was very small, we all knew each other and had no problems politely reminding one another to pay attention to what they were doing. We've gotten bigger, and there are a lot of new shooters, which is a good thing. With that growth, there are a lot of strange faces at the shoots, and I see a tendency to form small groups of folks who are more involved in conversation (myself included) and less involved in paying attention to what is going on around them. Even folks who have been here for a while become apathetic or complacent. Things get stolen, people get muzzle swept, NDs occur. Instead of instituting new rules to address these problems, we need to take the responsibility upon ourselves to see that the old ones are enforced. Finally, this is a public range, and one in which the general public is permitted to open carry at it. We can enforce a rule within our club, but we cannot enforce a rule on the other users of the range. Since we encourage openness at our events, we may always have people wandering over with loaded firearms no matter what rules we put in force. We need to stop being complacent or lackadaisical and start paying attention to our surroundings and looking out for one another. We need a cultural realignment more then we need additional rules. |
| I know gateway is not liked around here. There is some good reason for it. That being said, one of the rules states that every member is a safety officer. IF we see someone breaking the rules then we need to tell them right away, and if they have a problem with it they have to leave. |
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Someone had mentioned during the talk on Sunday about what occurred that all new shooters must have a sponsor. I think that is an awesome idea. You could go as far as making the sponsor at the shoot a non friend of the new shooter. So you would end up with a new shooter, their friend who brought them and then a random sponsor who will keep an eye on them as well. Sponsor sets their gear up right next to the new shooter and keeps a very watchful eye and answers any questions from the new shooter.
Using a random person as a sponsor gives the new shooter a feeling of being invited to the event. If you have a introvert shooter who will just talk with their friend and won't speak to others because of sheer uneasiness then you have just solved that problem. Sunday was my first time out with y'all and my first time running a tactical carbine course. I have done pistol courses before, reloading on the move with an AR was a whole new world for me. Having Glen and Chris "sponsoring" me allowed me the opportunity to peg them with 20 questions on how to do things before I ran the course. ––Scottie |
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hey guys If adding 1 rule saves 1 person from getting shot I am all for it..................Cold range, I am a safe shooter but obviously not everybody else is, and instead of not shooting why not add just 1 more rule. Cold Range, try it for a month if it doesn't work, i.e. somebody gets shot, then discontinue it. I have serious problem with ND's, I hope you guys do too. You seriously sound like you just went to a million mom march. |
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hey guys If adding 1 rule saves 1 person from getting shot I am all for it..................Cold range, I am a safe shooter but obviously not everybody else is, and instead of not shooting why not add just 1 more rule. Cold Range, try it for a month if it doesn't work, i.e. somebody gets shot, then discontinue it. I have serious problem with ND's, I hope you guys do too. Sorry Sam, but that is a fallacious argument. We've experienced NDs during the actual course of fire before. If we added just one rule that insisted you shout 'Bang!' instead of using live ammo, we could mitigate the risk to the shooter, the scorers, and the time keeper. Imagine how useful that would be. The fact is that there are risks inherent to everything we do, particularly with firearms. We minimize those risks as best we can. When the four rules in place are obeyed and common sense is used, it is remarkably difficult, if not impossible, for incidents such as this one to occur. The rules were not followed, an individual did something stupid, and this is the end result. I've been around for eight of the ten years FDCC has been up and running. When the club was very small, we all knew each other and had no problems politely reminding one another to pay attention to what they were doing. We've gotten bigger, and there are a lot of new shooters, which is a good thing. With that growth, there are a lot of strange faces at the shoots, and I see a tendency to form small groups of folks who are more involved in conversation (myself included) and less involved in paying attention to what is going on around them. Even folks who have been here for a while become apathetic or complacent. Things get stolen, people get muzzle swept, NDs occur. Instead of instituting new rules to address these problems, we need to take the responsibility upon ourselves to see that the old ones are enforced. Finally, this is a public range, and one in which the general public is permitted to open carry at it. We can enforce a rule within our club, but we cannot enforce a rule on the other users of the range. Since we encourage openness at our events, we may always have people wandering over with loaded firearms no matter what rules we put in force. We need to stop being complacent or lackadaisical and start paying attention to our surroundings and looking out for one another. We need a cultural realignment more then we need additional rules. I can see now why you guy's keep your side arms loaded. I think I would too
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It's not a fallacious argument that steps being added does not increase safety. I think what you really mean is you draw the line in a different place than the rule addition does. If we dropped the speed limit down to 55 again, im sure traffic deaths would be decreased overall (this is well established statistically.) But as a society we have to decide a happy medium that we can all live with. Hence........70mph......
I know I took about 3 months away from FDCC (work and opened a new business) so I've been off the radar. About five months ago a chik-fil-a meeting occurred where additional steps were added and some updates and modifications to then-current rules were made. Additional protections were discussed, beyond the normal "big 4" and they were adopted with speed because they represented the current compromise. I am very open minded to learning from ALL of you guys, and the collective experience of so many dudes. I also agree and accept the explanation that the rules can be enforced, even though the first thing I did was knee-jerk suggest possibly ending the disparity between rifles and sidearms. I'm also cool with whatever the consensus is, especially if it's reached through respectful discussion. I acknowledge that the current rules would have prevented the ND. But I am also not willing to accept another injury being the motive in the future for new rules in place of a preemptive rule change. If something catastrophic happens, the questions will be asked... its our responsibility to ask now. I am listening carefully to how this discussion goes. I feel that the mentions of carrying a sidearm just for the purposes of preventing theft does not really sound like a rational, responsible argument. If you actually intend on following through with that on a range where 100+ rifles and handguns are present, maybe now's a good time to hang up that kind of talk. It is not a legal response to the theft of property, even if that were a problem. I've been coming around for almost 2 yrs and have never been aware of a theft, in fact, people have returned guns and other items left behind. I know of at least one Glock that was returned like that. Maybe it was just a casual comment, but still, I don't find it to be respectful of the club as a whole to say that if theft were to happen you would respond with a firearm. Part of the reason we love the climate is because of the camaraderie and learning, and that is very much missing at 'other' ranges. Keeping the environment free and open as an argument to keep pistols holstered and loaded I respect and like. I appreciate the discussion and look forward to the constructive discussion we can all improve range safety. Perhaps we can look at new ways to ensure that newcomers and people who are not known by others are qualified by some sort of process that helps keep all of us safe. |
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hey guys If adding 1 rule saves 1 person from getting shot I am all for it..................Cold range, I am a safe shooter but obviously not everybody else is, and instead of not shooting why not add just 1 more rule. Cold Range, try it for a month if it doesn't work, i.e. somebody gets shot, then discontinue it. I have serious problem with ND's, I hope you guys do too. You seriously sound like you just went to a million mom march. FML.........You guys are right, survival of the fittest. I'll bring the MICH helmets and Body armor.
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I've been to a few FDCC meets, the guys that run this are as professional as it gets. Rules in and of themselves never prevent negligent discharges, adherence to rules prevents negligent discharges. As the FDCC is a loosely constructed social gathering of firearms enthusiasts it is the responsibility of ALL participants to maintain firearms Safety. This ND incident should remind all that it is as a participant, their responsibility to remind others of and to prevent unsafe practices. Blame for this incident lies on not only the perpetrator but those who witnessed the event without intervening. Now .................. as this is ARFCOM and not the FDCC the subject is closed. |