[ARCHIVED THREAD] - FDCC AAR (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 4/27/2008 3:26:53 PM EDT
|
Ok, learned some lessons today. 1) NEVER use a borrowed rifle. I did and three rounds into the first stage, the gun locked up. I never got another round through it all day. The reason? Non-chrome lined chamber + dirty chamber + Wolf ammo. I love Wolf, and this is not bash just the facts. 2) Under the pressure of multiple malfunctions and the clock, my fine motor skills went very gross. I mashed down so hard on the stuck magazine release button that I bent my thumb backwards at the first joint. Ow. 3) Thank you to the Safety Officers today. They helped me deal with the malfunctions and were generally just cool overall. 4) Thanks to Rob from Gun Gallery for trying to get the case out of the chamber. 5) When you live 2.5 hours from the match, bring backups.  On the positive side, my new safety glasses didn't fog up on me and the Bladetech DOH holster was very smooth and natural to draw from. |
....stucked in Orlando for 2 days hanging out with my mom, walking aimlessly from shop to shop. 
|
These are some of the things that I have learned from my first shoot. 1) Lake City is really a lot farther than an hour from Jacksonville. 2) When shooting and being timed I lose the basic fundamentals of pistol shooting (slow down, breathing control) 3) Hopefully by next month I will have my rifle and fully understand it so I will not have to borrow someone else’s rifle that I have shot before. 4) An EoTech sights are well worth the price people pay for them. Over all I had a great time on my first outing. I look forward to seeing you all again next month... great pictures Chuck... Whiskey Moodz http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y176/moody_moodz/glock21.jpg http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y176/moody_moodz/spikestactical-1.png |
|
Some great looking girls out there. It is pretty amazing that now matter how good you think you are when its timed your coordination goes to crap real fast (unless you've trained for time). I've found that its better to not fire off all rounds to ensure a nice group rather than squeezing off all of them and having no group whatsoever. ETA: Whats with some people not wearing eye protection? |
I'll apologize before hand but considering this day included my mother and my younger brother, it's a bit more personal
I've told you previously, M4's need adequate oil. Also isn't that the exact rifle that you told my mother to purchase and that it was a good one? Shame on you passing the blame.
When a weapon has a jammed empty cartridge, is it proper procedure to toss the weapon into the dirt, then hand it off to the other person who is using the rifle without saying a word or informing them that YOU have jammed the rifle? Is it also proper procedure for an employee of the Gun Gallery, and yourself, to toss an M4 bolt into the dirt, and then without cleaning it off place it back in the upper receiver dirty because you can't get a round out of the chamber? Shame on you. So how far did you guys get with the leatherman in chamber of the M4? Obviously not as far as the 30 seconds it took me to put a cleaning rod through the barrel and the sheer weight of the cleaning rod itself was enough to get it out. Years of such experience should of allowed you guys to get that issue solved within minutes. Rob, is it, you're a real class act and you attitude on the range showed that, you're lucky my brother is a lot more passive than I, and it's probably not wise to try and insult someone on a firing range, common sense evaded you that day. He made a mistake, it was pointed out to him immediately, and he resolved the issue, your loud mouth was not neccisery as he has been shooting for close to 10 years now, he's not an amature. I wouldn't expect anything less though from an employee of the Gun Gallery, every one of them I've had the honor of meeting were complete assclowns, who have individual ego's larger than their combined knowledge. |
if its personal, then do you not post publicly about it on the internet. Especially do not go out of your way to register on a website to cry about it to others in a public forum.
The best rifle can jam...when you stick shitty ammo into. Same on you for not knowing every company can put out a lemon...do not get hung on someone's words or a small sample in this case
Maybe they didn't have access to a clearning rod?
Actually, Rob is a class act. You know nothing about him other than what you saw that day. For those of us who know Rob for years...would completely disagree with you.
Are you actually suggesting that if someone informed you of the safety violation in the same manner that you would would committ physical harm with a weapon if you felt insulted? At a public firing range? Are you also suggesting that you would committ physical harm with a weapon if you felt insulted? At a public firing range? If thats the case, you are a detriment to the gun owning community at large with an attitude like that. Are you actually suggesting that what rob did was an insult? You need to back up and rewind, whoever it was who climbed that hill had little to no knowledge of the safety hazard they presented themselves with. Bullets just dont absorb into the berm 100% of the time, 2/10 or even 3/10 ricochet off, and not directly straight up in the air. Who ever that was who climbed the berm put themselves at danger...IMHO Darwin had it right, stupid hurts. But committed a major safety violation and could have ruined the day for themselves, their family, and the rest of us for good @ that range.
If you are who I think you are, you are an adult. and with a post like this, you are suggesting common sense as evaded you your entire life.
There in lies the rub. To Quote pat, we men think we can do the 3 basic things: shoot, screw, and drive. Well, thats not always the case, and IRREGARDLESS of how long he has been shooting what he did was very STUPID. And to be corrected immediately, and to have a follow up aftewards stating that was unsafe and you could have been killed, is COMPLETELY warranted. .
Thats laughable. Who have you met from the gun gallery? what did they do? what didn't they do? what gave them large egos? How much knowledge didn't they have? This being your first post on AR15 I'd imagine the freebee will be given, but to go out of your way to register on a website, seek out this thread, and then publicly bash/threaten/insult people is VERY immature. I suggest you try this all over again...the whole internet thing. |
|
Luke, I was making a observational post about my equipment malfunction, not a personal attack on your mom or her rifle. The blame for the malfunction definitely lies on me for not cleaning and lubing that rifle the night before. I'm used to my stuff working 100% of the time and have witnessed your mom's rifle eat 200-300 rounds of Wolf at a time on multiple occasions, so I assumed that it would run like normal. After my stage, I shot some CLP into the bolt, worked the action several times and it looked ok. If the case was stuck in the chamber at that time, the extractor had slipped off (or torn off) the rim. I did not visually inspect the chamber. If I handed a jammed rifle to your brother it was unknown to me at the time. I did not witness your brother's safety infraction, as I was over at my vehicle at the time. All I heard was the cease fire being called and someone yell to get off the berm. |
|
I'm sorry, no, every single person from Gun Gallery are stand up dudes, most of which I've known for the last 3 years, and shot with all of them at FDCC. They've NEVER came off as arrogant, or asses in the least. In fact most of them have gone out of their way to give me a hand when I needed it. And as for a safety infraction - yes, sometimes it warrants a good talking to, or even yelling at. I don't give a damn how long you've been shooting - I've been doing it 21 years, since I was 5 years old, and I still learn new things every day and KNOW I have things to learn. And ASSUMING anything within a shooting environment is a good way to hurt yourself or other people. And just a note, I was out at the LC range about a year ago, and was setting up a target on the range we do FDCC on, about 10 yards from the berm, before the match started, and a .22 from the range next door, skipped from the berm on that side, came back down range and hit me in the back of the head. Luckily it was only a dinky .22 and nothing bigger and felt like a bee sting, but it just goes to show you that random freak accidents can occur. And yes - the best damn guns can jam, I don't care what kind of gun you have. I've seen piston ARs jam because of shitty ammo and bad cleaning practices. If you don't keep it clean, and run reliable ammo through it, you're in a world of hurt, especially with a system that injects hot gas back into the action such as the M4/M16 platform. Just my .02 cents. -Glenn |
Have you Ever been to the gun gallery? Mike EDIT: this is a real question and not a joke... |
I've been registered for over a year, but only posted a few times from the 1 time I've gone to this event and have since then forgotten my login. Which was fun, I didn't go to this one as work demanded my attention. As for crying, I don't see any tears, I made comments and responses.
I never said they couldn't. I'm saying that handing off a jammed weapon, to someone who is going to use it next in the competition, without informing them of the issue at hand, is poor sportsmanship, especailly when 3 people are sharing that 1 rifle. My brother was set up for failure. You failed to read what I said.
There was one in the gun case. If not, anyone that knows how to get a jammed casing out a bolt would know to either use a cleaning rod or ask 1 of the 20 other people who would bring a cleaning kit with them. I don't think I've ever heard of anyone using a leatherman and rooting around in the chamber like that. Also, no response on tossing the bolt in to the dirt then putting it back into the weapon without cleaning it? What if it was your rifle and I did that to it? Would you be thrilled and excited? Answer honestly
I wasn't there. I've met him once, at the Gun Gallery. 1st impressions and calling me an idiot based on my opinion is a habit that everyone at Gun Gallery shares. Thus my opinion about them and how they handle people who come into their store for the 1st time.
If someone put their nose within 2 inches of mine, and began yelling at me and tossing insults, your damn f****** right I would. I'm a grown ass man, if I make a mistake, tell me I made one, but insulting and yelling to make sure everyone on the range hears it, that's just childish. I don't know whats funnier though, the fact that my brothers mistake was caught and he immediately remmidied the situation, or the fact that Rob made it a point to come from the other range, and start yelling, then my brother walking away after asking him "are you sure you want to do this right now". It was his first time shooting his shotty, he didn't realize the burm went up that high, his bad, he learned when someone hollared at him, Robs actions were uncalled for and over the top. Stand up guy eh. And my brother thought Rob was about to cause physical harm to him, so it was Rob who was in the wrong at that point, and me personally, if I feel someone is going to cause physical harm to me, I'll act first and ask questions later. If that makes me a "detriment to the gun owning community" then I'm fighting for gun rights for the wrong reason. Sorry, I thought my weapons were for personal protection, not showcasing them in glass cases.
Read above, he didn't realize that the burm went up that high, he knew it once someone yelled at him about it, he got down and knew he was in the wrong, Robs actions afterwards were completely unneccissery, my mom even felt threatened and worried about what was going to happen to my brother with the way Rob handled the situation. Way to make fellow rifleman feel comfortable and safe at a rifle range.
You have no clue who I am, and know nothing of my life. What does me posting about the arrogant in childish way some things were handled at the gun range have to do with anything in my life? Rob was the one who approached and handled the situation in a childish way. Like I said, he is lucky my brother is very passive, because Rob could have easily been shot. He put someone in a threatened position at a firing range, common sense did evade him. If you don't see that, then you need to wake up to the real world, because people get shot for things as simple as cutting someone off in traffic. What Rob did was far worse than that. If you don't get that, then you my friend need some real life experiences before you attempt to open up any type of can of worms with me.
It was corrected, and a proper follow-up wasn't conducted. There was no "stating". There was basic bullying. I understand safety. Being that I was Army Infantry, I can say right now, that compared to a military firing range, the range here is 99% more dangerous. So, I mean, in reality, I could say "holy crap you guys are so friggen dangerous you flippin idiots omfg!!", and start calling everyone names, and put my nose in your face and yell at you, and it would be ok right? Whats your name, I'll be sure to find you first and do some thing like that and see how well you take it.
I've been in and out of the Gun Gallery with a few friends. I never stay more than 5-10 minutes, because the BS they spew to people drives me nuts. They've tried to sell me stuff that I didn't want, then told me I was an idiot and didn't know what I was talking about. They have no clue who I am or what I know, or what I want, and then proceed to call me an idiot? Nice, real customer service there. That's my experience. And I didn't "go out of my way". My mother showed me a post, told me a story, and it pissed me off. It took me all of 20 seconds to re-make and account (i had one a while back but forgot the login/email). She follows the forums for updates on the events and deals and such. That's the only way I knew anything about this thread.
The way he received a "good talking/yelling to" involved insults. He knows the safety, he just didn't realize the burm went up that high, his bad. It was resolved, but the insults and threatening manner that the "good talking/yelling" wasn't done with any sort of sportsmanship or class that I can think of. As far as the jammed casing, it wasn't the jamming issue, it was how the firearm that didn't belong to them was handled. Didn't tell the next person who was using it in the competition that there was a round jammed, then tossed in the dirt, bolt removed and tossed in the dirt, then placed back into the upper receiver without so much as blowing off the dirt. That is the issue as well as how Rob proceeded to handle the safety infraction. I can see where "sticking" together might apply, considering I've only been to 1 event and didn't make it my intention to introduce myself, I don't like people, but you have to think for a minute, is basically no regard for someones weapon and how it is handled, and insulting other rifleman a habit that you all share? Because if it is, then I will be sure to stay far far away from all of you. |
| I wasnt there, and dont know what actually happened at the event, or at your visit to the shop. Sorry you've had negative experiences at FDCC and the Gun Gallery. As wildly different as the events are being described, I'd guess an impartial report has to be passed on. Either way, I'd hope all of us can practice a little more understanding and patience. |
|
So I guess it was "his bad" that he also missed the 2 big white signs in BOLD RED letters that say "No Shotguns Allowed"????? Your brother was 10' off of the range floor, that's about 5' off of center mass. Targets should never be placed any higher than your eyes & no further back on a range than where the berm begins to incline. 2 very simple and disregarded rules. But hey... it's only his life we're talking about in the end right? I mean... that's not worth a little scolding to enamor the point for life right? I mean... wouldn't make that mistake again... would he. And as far as sticking up for the guys from GG or anywhere else... I couldn't give a shit. I call a spade a spade. If you're an asshat... well you just are. There were a few out there Sunday... but I don't recall ever seeing them behind the counters @ GG. The long and short of it is this... I bet your brother never climbs up on a berm again.  David |
This is my first post, so why not start off with a bang... I've had my AR for about a year and have only seriously focused on shooting within the last few months. I have had a lot of help from so many people in regards to overall management of weapons systems, tactics and most importantly, safety. With the exception of my recent Magpul class, that advice and assistance came from the guys from the Gun Gallery. I am by no means perfect, but I am improving. That being said, even someone like me, who has little range time or experience, knows better than to frolic on a berm, above the separating cement barrier, that is adjacent to a hot range. Not to mention that hot range was not simply bench shooting, but an actual course that required shooters to move from target to target, increasing the intensity of fire. If something does occur, one has to yell to be heard over gunfire as it fairly loud, and frankly, you are lucky that Rob noticed, because that's how people are injured or killed. It sure seemed like an amateur mistake to me, but what do I know? If I had noticed, I would have done the same thing as a precaution. And if the situation ever presents itself, look for the girl with the smokin' silver barrel... |
A shooter walked up the berm on range 2, about 75% of the way to the top. High enough to expose himself from about the knees up to richocets from range 1. I'll try to get scores posted tonight or tomorrow, guys. |
|
Wow what a thread!! The infraction is someone climbed up the berm and placed targets above the line of fire. Not too smart... we can go back and forth and argue like a bunch of Ass Monkeys! (Assclown is too strong to use) or we can learn from this. Shooting is a sport that has no foul balls, no offsides, no hits, runs or outs...If you FUCK up at the gun range people can die. Plain and simple. It is a potentially deadly sport and extreme caution and saftey must be first prioroity, Safety means you can come back again and shoot another day. I want to take this one step further,,,,You guys were in the middle range right?? I was on the left 200 yard range. I had a very scary experience there and after reading this thread I am pissed,,, I was down range setting up my targetss andn had several hot rounds zip past me and hit the dirt about 5 or 6 feet from me. I jumped and ran and rolled as several more rounds plinked into the ground near where I had been standing. The guy with the Barrett .50 came running out concerned and asked me if I had been hit...He saw the shells kick up dirt around me and he was really genuinely concerned for my safety.... I was thankful he came to my aide..thank GOD I wanst hurt. I am willing to bet that the stray rounds were from someone "playing" with there gun and not "shooting" in a safe manner. I dont want to die at my favorite gun range. And I dont want to die while out with a top notch group of men and women shooters like the FDCC/ Gun Gallery group. Most of all I dont want to accidently shoot someone. I have been shooting for 30 years and want to shoot for 30 more with all of you... Just becasue the range is out in the stix doesn't mean we can ignore the rules does it?? I mean with no official range officers or anything we can do what we want right? Well if we disregard the rules the best case scenerio is that they close the range. The worst case is we have a DEATH. then they close the range. Its not about who is more of a man...give me a break on the "dont insult a man with a gun at a gun range". What are you some kind of Bad to the Bone Mambajamba?? You looking for a fight?? If you are then don't come shoot with us. Your not welcome there anymore... I ban you from the Osceola Gun range no shooting for you!! Come back in one year and try again!! 
|
You guys and your commie stuff!!  Was a nice shooter though. David |
|
Diveriter said he also caught a glimpse of a sasquatsch peering from the bushes while all the drama was going on.... Overall I had a great time. The guy with the Barrett .50 was a lot of fun. I didnt shoot it but it was extremely funny watching him shoot. He was so excited and the concussion from it was more akin to artillary than a rifle...He started laughing because I was sighting in an old Glenfield .22 and I waited to fire in between his shots..so it was a dance of BOOM click BOOM click BOOM click..guess you had to be there.  |
what kids? i don't see any kids? do you mean your guns? |
|
WOW. Was there more than one Rob out there, because I think you are speaking of me. But that is not the way I remember it happening. Of course, I could be a little bias. So I will be open to any criticism from anybody that #1 Witnessed it happen and #2 isn't part of my crew or your crew. No one got within 2 inches of each other, hell I don't think that we got to within 2 feet of each other. I did not “toss insults” at your brother. The only insult I remember was him calling me a ass hole (or something like that) once we were walking away from each other. And your calling me childish LOL. “Are you sure you want to do this right now” was never spoken. Something like “Why are you trying to start shit with me” was spoken. “cause physical harm” simply laughable. No other explanation necessary. You make it sound like I was out of control with rage, going over to start a fight with your brother. WTF. My reasoning for going over to talk to your brother was to make sure he knew why we just called a cold line and yelled at him to get off the berm. And by yell I mean that he was over 50 yards from me and I don't think he would have heard me whisper. Hell I think I yelled cease fire so loud that the 200 yard line went cold. The reason that I yelled so loud was that IT WAS THAT IMPORTANT. I opened the dialog with “you know you could die doing that” or something along those lines. That is not a insult, that is a statement derived to hammer home a point. I work on a range, I see stupid shit every day. Safety concerns have to be handled right this second, and with no misunderstanding of what is dangerous about the practice I am stopping. Feel free to call me a range Nazi, I didn't have to clean brain off the walls tonight, that is what is important. Sorry if your brothers feeling were not at the top of my list. You should be thanking me that his LIFE was at the top of my list. It would have been negligent on my part to assume that your brother realized that he made a mistake, I had no way of knowing that. Maybe If he would have stated that he realized that he made a mistake, this all would not be a issue right now. With that said. There is a guy that is a regular at the shop that would give me shit about every little gun handling mistake I made. He was not very nice about it. I am much better with my gun handling now (he hasn't yelled at me for at least 3 years) and I respect him very much for it. With that comes the right to be critical of his gun handling skills, but I have not had to do that because he is very safe. What I am trying to say is, if anyone witnesses me to be unsafe handling a gun, jump on my case. It is the only way I or any one else will get better. Oh and one more thing. No I didn't have a cleaning rod, and no one offered one up when I asked. Sorry I didn't ask everyone within a mile radius. And just so everybody knows, I don't have a clue what to do with a broken AR, I just beat on it until it sees it my way, or brakes even worse. Ether way I win. Thanks to all of you that came on this tread to support me. Chromeluv, I love you man. |
To summarize into cliff notes: Someone got butt hurt because they committed a major safety violation on the range that could have resulted in them getting killed. Rob corrected them, and informed them of this. Now this guy's brother, who wasn't even there, getting information second hand, is warning Rob that he could have almost been shot/killed since he posed such a threat to his brother/mother. And somehow someway, is now lumping everyone in who works @ the gun gallery as assclowns/egomaniacs. And then he proceeds to get laughed off the forum. |
| I can't count how many times I have been at a FDCC shoot and seen someone with a swelled up steel case in a AR. Now you insult me about U come to the Gun Gallery for 5 to 10 minutes and say everyone there is a ASSCLOWNS U have met. Maybe U are the one acting like a ASSCLOWN. U said "U dont like people" that explains how U feel about anyone then. If you act that way then U will get treated that way in the long run. Yes it is right to treat even ASSCLOWNS better when working but we are only human sometimes U can only handle so much. Sorry I have to protect myself too since I work at the G.G. |
|
Hey Rob. I was the one you were helping with the jammed rifle. With no cleaning rod available, you did the best you could. I didn't let you do anything to the borrowed rifle that I wouldn't have let you do to one of my own. While a Leatherman may not part of an issued cleaning kit, it posed no danger to the rifle. I appreciate you trying to get us up & running, even though my thumb was too hurt to continue the match. The only time the bolt was in the dirt, is when I set it down leaning against the lower. The tail end of the carrier came into contact with sand. Again, nothing was done to the borrowed rifle that I wouldn't have done to my own rifle. I didn't witness the berm climbing, and only learned about the "discussion" by reading about it here. Strange considering the two people involved rode 80 miles with me and never said a single word about it. Not sure what to make of that. |
|
Hope this is coming to a close, but if it is not, please be reminded that calling people names on the board is a violation of the CoC. An open discussion of events is welcome and appreciated, but it would seem that theres been enough names passed around here and elsewhere, so lets make an effort to bring that to an end (at least here!)
|
I'll go one better, continued attacks will get someone a time out.  Promise.
|
Interesting... Mike |
I gotta chime in here. I was standing there when Rob called the ceasefire, turned around and saw cletus way up on the berm trying to place clay pigeons. He looked back and came down. I wasn't on range two for that discussion but when Rob walked back over I heard someone say that the guy was giving him shit. Anyway, later I walked around the corner to go to range two and it was crowded. The guy all the way on the right was firing a rifle at the clay pigeons that were half way across the berm and half way up! About the time I realized what was happening someone walked over and spoke to him. I looked at the crowd, and went and put my rifle in the truck (little scary). I wonder if that was the same cletus that was dropping rounds on you. Where was this dude shooting from? If it was him, just do us a favor and don't come back. I've been shooting with the club for several years and I feel very safe around them. I've been called down a couple of times and I'm safer for it. It's helped me be safer and helped me be a better teacher for my kids. You and your brother ought to be thankful that Rob has a good eye and even better experience. As for all of the guys at the Gun Gallery, they are top notch and I tell everyone that! I AM an idiot and they're always nice to me. Maybe you weren't being an idiot, maybe you were just being a jerk. It happens. (mods, that was not meant to be name calling. please don't censor me .Love, Dave |